Liz, didn;t realize the term "live music" was open to so much debate and qualifications. If its live guys playing and its not a recording, however they do it and whatever tools they choose, electronic or otherwise, isn't that "live"? What is it otherwise if not? Not a recording. Music of the "undead" maybe? I consider a guy playing sounds on a synthesizer live as well, as long as its not a machine doing it. That's just me...:^)
How to meaningfully audition speakers??
I think this topic has appeared elsewhere, even if worded differently. But I thought I'd ask anyway.
Just upgraded my amp and was thinking about auditioning different speakers. Problem is that there are only a handful of high-end B&M stores nearby. Another complication is that no one store has the 2 or 3 speaker brands that I want to check out.
Further, I am dubious that one can meaningfully audition gear by running from store to store because the test conditions are not identical. In addition, unless a piece is really terrible or incredibly terrific, I don't trust my aural memory. Perhaps other have a different view.
Seems to me that the best way to accomplish what I want is to have the speakers of interest brought to my house and hooked up to my rig. But -- I am NOT aware of any dealer willing to part with expensive gear like that, especially if it has to be specially ordered from a distributor because the model is not on display.
So the Q is what do most folks do? Just buy speakers on hope and a prayer?? Rely on reviews or Forum comments??
Just upgraded my amp and was thinking about auditioning different speakers. Problem is that there are only a handful of high-end B&M stores nearby. Another complication is that no one store has the 2 or 3 speaker brands that I want to check out.
Further, I am dubious that one can meaningfully audition gear by running from store to store because the test conditions are not identical. In addition, unless a piece is really terrible or incredibly terrific, I don't trust my aural memory. Perhaps other have a different view.
Seems to me that the best way to accomplish what I want is to have the speakers of interest brought to my house and hooked up to my rig. But -- I am NOT aware of any dealer willing to part with expensive gear like that, especially if it has to be specially ordered from a distributor because the model is not on display.
So the Q is what do most folks do? Just buy speakers on hope and a prayer?? Rely on reviews or Forum comments??
Showing 15 responses by mapman
Frog, Thanks for pointing out the value of listening to all kinds of live music in all kinds of venues as a means of establishing a reference for what music can and does sound like. I realized after posting that I missed that important aspect of "establishing a reference", which is the most important first step. Without a reference to shoot for, you cannot POSSIBLY hit the target. Live music even more so than hifi will demonstrate how different things can sound based on things like venue, acoustics, sound mix, listening position relative to performance, etc. IT really helps set some useful reference points. Then you also realize how different each event sounds and all that goes into that. Also, and most importantly, you will gain an understanding of what different events that sound good have in common. That provides the reference information needed to now attempt to achieve similar results at home, where quality and nature of sound will also vary based on room acoustics, gear assembled starting with speakers, listening position and most importantly, recording to recording. When you get to a point where it does not matter much what recording you play because most all recordings in good condition sounds good (not always perfect but engaging in a different way each time), that is probably where one seeking the "ultimate sound" wants to find themselves. You'll know when you have to pry yourself away from listening, rather than the sound chasing you away prematurely. It may take some time but does not have to cost a fortune in many cases, at least in the end, if done one step at a time, starting with the right speakers for your unique room and budget, and not too many dead end roads gone down in the process as a result of just trying to throw money at the problem. |
Wolf, for example, in recent years I have attended live events at Meyerhoff Symphony Hall, Carnegie Hall, Rams HEad live in Annapolis Maryland, and Fedex field in DC all of which had excellent sound that I found to be useful as a reference myself. Also the occasional local band in a nearby unknown pub. I am a paying customer only, so I only get to do it a few times a year, not on a regular basis. I suspect that there is overkill at some point in terms of how often listening to live music is actually useful as an ear training experience, but I think it is up until the point where the ears become well trained already as a result. Also lots of events mostly in other venues that were more examples of bad rather than good sound. All these experiences have helped me to be able to recognize what good sound is, at least to me, as well as bad. All useful training for my ears. |
Live music, in studio or otherwise is the reality, FBOFW. Right? How much anyone cares about it though is totally up to them. Alan Parsons has never invited me into his studio, so I will never know what that was supposed to sound like. But I can walk down to nearest pub, recital hall outdoor concert and listen. My daughter will play her violin for me in our house for free (with some coaxing). I find listening live FBOFW helps my ability to enjoy music in that I find the way things sound in general to always be interesting. Doesn't even have to be music. Ever hear a rooster crow from close up? Or listen to the sound of the surf breaking on a beach? How about the birds waking up at daybreak? Very cool! |
"The reason live drum sounds don't go through your hifi is the fact that uncompressed drums would blow up most any home system's speakers, " Not to mention the amp clipping that would probably occur and totally ruin the sound anyhow in most cases even if the result is not blown speakers. Note though that proximity to music source and venue room acoustics is a big factor in how loud something really is. I was listening to a rock band play outdoors from about 20 feet away recently. It was loud overall and sound mix was good but nothing there that could not be reproduced at home easily with the right gear. |
"It sounds like what Frogman said. Jazz and classical for some reason have engineers that care more about the music and its end results. " Maybe. They definitely have priorities that tend to align better with the textbook "audiophile". I shy away from better/worse judgements like this though. Its a matter of opinion and personal preferences to a large extent. Classical/jazz and popular music are two different beasts marching to two different drums. Good to very good recordings that enable one to enjoy what they hear seem to be more the norm I hear these days in general than in past years, at least since the mid 1990's or so. I have read things about digital recording techniques and technical standards improvements over the years that explain why. Not to say that many a modern recording targeting purely a large pop audience these days is not largely reduced to a fairly low common denominator in all regards including sound quality that keeps its market as open as possible. I would not doubt jazz/classical music attracts more musical "purists" in all regards, including production, but I would probably just leave it at that. "Monkey Business" by Black Eyed Peas is a somewhat modern pop CD with good production quality overall I would say that has a lot of music FBOFW packed into it and serves as a good challenge to determine if a playback system is underpowered and can deliver the goods without clipping or not. Clipping is public enemy #1 IMHO in regards to good sound. Effects of clipping can range from subtle/hard to detect to blatant distortion and/or lack of large scale dynamics. No system that clips will sound as good as it might, high end or otherwise. Inefficient speakers with extended bass often require surprising amounts of power to NOT clip with many recordings played at even moderate volume levels. |
Public Enemy #1 In order to "meaningfully" audition speakers, clipping must be avoided. The best insurance policy is to start with the biggest best amp possible for the initial audition, as an insurance policy against clipping. Most smaller speakers that promise any kind of flat response below 50 hz or so will require amps capable of delivering 250 w/ch or more into 8 ohms (doubling to 500 w/ch into 4 ohms) for that "insurance policy". More power is always better than less to establish an initial reference. From there, you might find less power suitable in the end, but not until you have a performance reference that is best assured to not involve clipping. Most tube amps and some SS amps "soft clip". SOft clipping has less offensive distortion characteristics than "hard clipping" but clipping is always a form of distortion and best to avoid altogether to the maximum extent possible, unless the best dynamics possible are not a concern. |