How much difference will a phono stage upgrade make?
I would disagree with Leotis on this one. Sure, there is some small amount of distortion that tubes MAY add, but it's negligible. You'll see that Kevin Deal highly recommends the Chinook with the Primaluna as a good match. My experience is the same. I moved from 2 different SS phono stages (Musical Fidelity and PhonoBox RS), both good in their own right. And I find the Chinook betters both by a long shot. Also, above I didn't mention that I use an ART9 cartridge. I do find a tiny bit more gain would be good. And, the latest version delivers an extra 5 db of gain. I sent mine in to have that added so I can try it out. I don't want to add an SUT to the mix. |
You'll see that Kevin Deal highly recommends the Chinook with the Primaluna as a good match. Kevin Deal is a tube dealer, what else he can recommend? He also a dealer of Manley Lab. gear. Gold Note PH-10 is a new generation of SS phono stages JLTi is also superb SS phono stage for MM/MC both very reasonably priced |
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chakster2,484 posts03-04-2019 9:56am You'll see that Kevin Deal highly recommends the Chinook with the Primaluna as a good match.
yes he does. He also sells dozens of other brands including SS preamps. He isn’t recommending the chinook so he can get rich selling 4 replacement tubes. He’s making a solid recommendation as I and others have said. OP you will love it, I’m sure. Please report back! And if you don’t, Kevin accepts returns. |
I rolled out of the ElectroHarmonix and Sovteks. Ive got NOS Telefunken in the phono stage now. Lush sound, but alot of rush at my listening levels Phono tubes, especially NOS, are tricky to get right. I'm lucky to have a local tube dealer that brings a stash of tubes to my house so we can listen to them in my system before I buy them. The other way I have gotten great tubes is to call Andy over at Vintage Tube Services and see what he recommends. |
Dear @12hz and firends : Almost all in this thread are tube lover pre-historic/arcaic technology and is fine with me. Note that I said " tube lovers " not MUSIC lovers. Because if you were/been true MUSIC lovers then all of you will stay out/far away from tubes. Tubes can't ( the technolgy of tubes can't do it, is very limited for MUSIC and today audio standards to really enjoy MUSIC. ) honor MUSIC. Which one of you tube lovers already has the first hand experience to stay/be seated in a live MUSIC event at NEAR FIELD position?. Near field position means 1m-2m from the MUSIC source that's where normally the recording sessions/proccess microphones are positioned/seated. Because that's the way we have to listen what comes out from our speakers. Live MUSIC is not sweet but brigth is not warm but agressive is not lush but with a full power we can feel it is not " organic " either. So, if you like tube electronics then what you like is the hardware but not the source/software that's the star in each one of us room/audio system: MUSIC and its reality. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R: |
Keith Herron worked in the pro sound field for years, designing and making solid state electronics exclusively. He now makes solid state power amps for the consumer market, but when it comes to phono and line stages chose to go with tubes. He did so for a reason. Ask him, he'll tell you all about it. And yes, Keith is a music lover. |
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Dear @bdp24 @jmolsberg : Ask to any tube electronics manufacturer in the 1K-40K range price and every one will tell you that tubes is the way to go. both of you They are making money through " audiophiles " for many years and as all them and professional reviewers no one of them can and never will do the whole true about tubes and why are not for reproduce MUSIC at audio home systems. They make $$$$ because each one of us ignorance and thak's to that heavy corrupted AHEE where all of us belongs and was there where those manufactuerrs/reviewer told us that tubes are the nirvana for audio and you and me belived ! ! ! but some us fortunatellu learned about and I can see that you don't learned yet. Here in this forum and other net forums I had several dialogues with tube manufacturers and no proved is the way to go and I proved all them that is not the way to go. Common sense: if I'm making money big money with tube electronics why stop to do it or tell the consumers is not the " glory ". You will learn, sooner or latter. Btw, how many times both of you or any other tube system did have the experience in a live MUSIC event to listen it seated at near field position ( 1m-2m. ) from the source. How many times? if you did not have this experiences it's time you look for and then you will understand why tubes is just out of place. No matters what very well regarded manufacturers have to say. I already said: no one can't be against making $$$$$ R. |
The last time I heard an upright bass (being played by Todd Phillips, an old friend from San Jose. He's worked with David Grisman, Tony Rice, Jerry Douglas, Joan Baez, Ricky Skaggs, Del McCoury, Stephane Grapelli, Taj Mahal, too many others to list), the 19th Century German instrument was about four feet away from my bass drum. A little further away were a pair of acoustic guitars and a mandolin. I have played many times with acoustic piano, Blues harp, fiddle, pedal steel guitar, tenor and baritone saxes, trumpet, and many vocalists. Yes, I am well aware of the sound of acoustic instruments. "In spite" of that, I like tubes ;-). I also like the sound of my solid state pieces (SACD player, power amps, First Watt x/o, Revox and Nakamichi tape recorders, Mac tuner, Stax headphone amp, a bunch of others). Any other suggestions Raul? |
The op’s question is not so much is something better than the Manley - but if it will be a worthwhile and significant upgrade. IMHO when you have a jump in the price of a component you can and ought to expect a jump in sound quality as well - it may expose weaknesses elsewhere - and that’s a slippery road down (or is it up) the upgrade path. Perhaps you ought to ponder this. I have read review after review saying x is better than anything twice the price - yet at the next price point up they same the same thing about y - reviewers nonsense. In my experience a well matched more expensive is almost invariably better than a cheaper well matched component in a given set up - cables (in my set up) are the exception. So try and get a home audition and try the Manley out - try a few others and don’t get obsessed with topology and circuit - get what sounds good to you. |
I think one of the best values in phonostages is the Pass Labs Xono. It is a very underrated unit. Works great with MC and MM cartridges and has a lot of flexibility when it comes to loading. Fremer recently posted about this unit on his website Analog Planet. He actaully said he believed it to be one of the best at the time. It's a great unit and Pass has great support. |
12hz, before you start dropping coin on a new phono stage, you may want to look at the load resistors in your current model. Replace them with Vishay foils and you will be shocked at the reduction in noise, and improvement in low level detail without changing the frequency balance. would agree with photon46, spending a lot more does not mean better. Have dropped 6K on a phono stage only to find out it was not as good as what I had. the EAR 834s (real and clones) are also really good. J |
@12hz - it's been 6 months now, did you end up with the Chinook? If so, how are you liking it over your previous stage? Also, was curious if you gave any thought to one of the E-Glo stages from EAT - since you could then share their Linear Power Supply for the phono stage with your C-Sharp? I'm currently considering this setup myself, as I also have the C-Sharp... Thanks |
12hz, this is a sideways answer to your interest in the Chinook. I owned a Manley Jumbo Shrimp and Snapper amps for a couple of years. I was very pleased with the sonics of both but a problem developed with unstable bias in one amp. I lived in SoCal then and ended up taking the amp to the factory for repair. It was a weird problem to diagnose and required two tries, but I was still pleased by how fairly they treated me (it was out of warranty). Also I was able to take their factory tour twice and I was quite impressed by their operation. Also I've spoken with EveAnna a few times and enjoyed her enthusiasm and knowledge. I do not have direct experience in auditioning the Chinook, but have no hesitancy in recommending Manley products. I believe they are a first rate company. I will also say I've auditioned Herron electronics at shows and a friend's system, as well as talking with Keith. I've been impressed by him and his products as well and endorse them if they fit one's budget. |
A good phono section will have less ticks and pops even though it is wider bandwidth. Its always nice to find out that your LP collection isn’t as bad off as you thought it was. What most people don’t realize is that the phono preamp, in addition to enough gain and proper EQ, must also be stable and resistant to Radio Frequency Interference (RFI). This is because a significant amount of RFI is generated by the cartridge itself in the form of bursts of energy at the resonant frequency of the inductance of the cartridge which is in parallel with the capacitance of the interconnect cable. The RFI can cause ticks and pops due to overload of the phono section input. That resonant peak I mentioned can be about 30dB!! Many designers don’t realize that- hence phono sections that don’t deal with this issue very well. A side benefit of RFI immunity and stability is that the cartridge no longer has to be ’loaded’ to sound right. This allows it to be more supple and can thus trace high frequencies easier. IOW loading a cartridge causes it to do more work and that in turn stiffens the cantilever, just like shorting the terminals of a woofer makes it stiffer. |
@atisv99 - thanks for checking in. The bottom line is that I really like the Manley Chinook. How does it compare to other phono stages like the Herron? I don’t know because I’ve never heard one in my system. Going back to my original question, however, yes, it made enough of a difference in sound quality to justify the expense. I have a very low output cartridge (Ortofon MC Black) and the extra 5 dB of gain that the MKII offers seems to be a significant benefit to getting the Special Edition. I would be curious to hear more about the EAT phono stages if you decide to go that route. I briefly looked into that as an option but for whatever reason I was fixated on the Chinook. (I was interested in the Herron, too, but it was beyond my financial reach.) On a side note, but relevant in terms of support and customer service, the first Chinook that was sent to me was dead in the water. It wouldn’t fire up at all. After minimal back-and-forth with Kat at Upscale, a new one was express shipped to me and I sent the first one back directly to Manley. Both Upscale and Manley worked to resolve the issue as quickly as possible. Disappointed but not deterred, I waited an extra couple of days to get one that worked, but it was all very painless. The second one lit right up and has been working beautifully ever since. Thanks to all on this forum who offered useful advice on this topic. |
