Damn Wolf, Mattacks is a GREAT drummer, one of my favorites. He has also worked with Richard Thompson, who was of course in Fairport Convention. He not only plays real well (musical, tasteful, ensemble-style), he also knows how make his drums sound good for recording. Not everyone does. He plays like a studio drummer, not a Rock Band member. I view him sort of as the British Kenny Buttrey (Nashville studios; Dylan, Neil Young’s Harvest album, thousands of other recordings). He plays the way songwriters like drummers to play---complimentary.
My sister was in the Navy, and in the late-70’s/early 80’s was stationed in Hawaii. For my birthday in 1980 she paid my air fare to fly over for a week and stay with her in her off-base apartment. One night I went to a nightclub to drink and see/hear some live music, and there was a singer backed by a 3-piece band. They played current hits plus Classic Rock, and were okay. On a break the guitarist came over and asked me my name. I told him, and he said "I thought that was you!". I had no idea who he was.
Turns out he was this kid who lived near the house the band I was in in 1971 practiced, a kid who would come over and watch and listen to us work on our all-original material. Small world! He told me playing his band’s material, and with that singer (singers are often not musicians, and are a different kind of guy. They are not singers for no reason ;-) was a grind, but that he was making 3 grand a week. In 1980. I was pissed! He said getting musicians to come to the islands was so difficult that clubs were willing to pay that much to get them to.
We had to re-join the union every time we got a gig opening for a big act, and generally it cost about as much as we made for the show. I made more playing 5 or 6 nights a week in Honolulu clubs than friends I knew who toured in major acts. A couple of years ago I was talking to the brilliant drummer Dave Mattacks in a Portsmouth NH club and he said he couldn't get gigs in London so he moved here...he was in Fairport Convention, played with Wings, Jethro Tull, Elton John, etc...crazy.
In the early 70’s, Bill Graham used Monday nights to audition local (Bay Area) bands. The ones who passed were given slots on regular nights, opening for national acts. The Fillmore was a Union building, so to be able to perform there bands were required, if they didn’t already belong, to join the union. Most semi-pro bands, playing bars, clubs, weddings, corporate gigs, etc., never have to.
I knew some guys in a San Jose band who did the audition night at The Fillmore, joining the Union just to be able to do so. Induction fee, plus monthlies (whether you work that month or not). They played their set, and went home to hear back from the Graham organization. They instead heard from the Musicians Union, who fined them for playing below scale! Graham paid bands peanuts, auditioning bands actually willing to play for free to get on the Fillmore stage. Graham KNEW he was playing below scale, and that the bands would therefore get fined, and couldn’t care less. Ah, the life of an aspiring musician ;-) .
Speaking of pay.....for those who think being a professional musician in a big name band pays well: Denny Seiwell, the L.A. studio drummer McCartney plucked out of that environment for his early 70’s band Wings, gave an interview in which he disclosed that Paul was paying him $150 a week. He eventually quit, being unable to afford to work for Paul.
I joined the Honolulu Musicians Union 50 years ago (they tossed me and every other member I knew out from time to time for non payment of dues), and have played electric guitar too loud too often and still do. Ears ring, etc. So now I mix live concert sound to the standards required by Fred Hersch, Julian Lage, The Baltimore Consort, etc., and get overpaid to do so. My "active listening" (meaning paying attention) sessions with my hifi rig have increased my listening abilities and contribute mightily to my ever evolving personal taste. I imagine I’m not alone there...Bob Ludwig is 73...Clearmountain is 65...my former neighbor Elliot Scheiner is 71...can they hear dog whistles? I doubt it, but their dogs can’t apply accumulated perceptive skill to sound production so it’s a wash (sort of, but you get it). Also, I’ve been into sports cars for decades, and a great car is obviously great (to an experienced driver anyway) at any speed. ’69 Lotus Elan? Yep...great. 74 Carrera? Great. My Mini Turbo...a 9 year old 3 series...you don’t need to race them to know they’re excellent, and don’t need to hear speakers at 103db to know they’re working. The "going back to simple gear" concept isn’t lost on me, but you have to appreciate that, for example, a modern single ended hand wired tube amp has better everything in its construction, and speakers that were originally designed in 1957 now have upgraded components and sound WAY better than back in the day. Possible exceptions do exist as old tube guitar amps are often pure magic, but hey, so are lots of new ones.
have had tinnitus in my right ear for years....very annoying, along with poor HF hearing in that ear....yet I can still, thankfully hear small differences in music and recordings, as well as any changes I make to my setup. I can't explain it. I guess you just have to know what you're listening for. I'm sure that 20 years ago my hearing was much better, but thankfully I can still appreciate my gear and the music that it plays. When I can no longer do that, I guess I'll post my stuff here for sale and go back to reading books at night :)
Two approaches: one - the worse the hearing the better equipment needed, another - the opposite. And yet another approach - better equipment without paying any attention to the above.
I suspect the vast majority of the older members on this forum will struggle to better 13k hearing tbh, no shame in that at all. And does it mean I enjoy my system and music any less? Heck no! And does it mean I cannot tell Schiit ( sorry could not resist!) from Gryphon? Heck no!
Farce indeed. But I wouldn't be too harsh, some people are trying to find their voice and start by spreading caca all over the place. Elizabeth, if you can hear sh.t that's impressive.
You are very lucky. Do you know what Flemming Rasmussen once said about his top of the line amplifier ? He said - This one will wake up dead Eskimo ! Greenland is part of Kingdom of Denmark, there are Eskimo living there.
@inna Yeah, I'm using Gryphon speakers, it's all about having the preferable equipment combination for your own ears. It's not (or certainly less) important what others think.
@inna Unfortunately I have no experience with the FM Acoustics. Gryphon is great indeed, nevertheless, I'm now using the CH Precision M1. As stated before, both are very good amps, but my personal preference made me change from Gryphon to CHP. Still using Gryphon amps for the bass towers.
Don't worry too much, as mentioned, I can currently only hear up to about 12k, and even to hear that I will have to really concentrate. But I could clearly differentiate between my Gryphon Mephisto power amp and my CH Precision M1 amp. Both being good power amps, but with different sound. So most likely it doesn't have too much to do with frequency, it's just a different sound, and some people will choose amp A, others amp B.
Test was maybe 4 months ago, 13k is it for me now which frankly I am surprised I still am at that level. With all the live bands up against the massive stacks of the 70,s and 80,s. Playing bass in my band. And working in heavy machinery manufacturing for last 40 years!
Fortunately no tinnitus yet!
Yes I wear custom ear plugs at work and have done for decades but not at concerts or when I was playing bass and I was always astonished at what spl I could achieve with a Peavey 100watt tube head and 2x15 cab!
Now how does any of that affect my listening enjoyment or ability to detect changes with different components, cables, tweaks etc?
Not at all I believe.
I am happy, I can hear changes, I enjoy my music, like right now. That is all that matters to me.
Having begun to experience hearing loss and concomitant tinnitus in my 60s, I finally opted fir a set of (relatively) high-end Phonaks, which were computer-tuned to audio spectrum of greatest loss, round 4000 Hz, +/- 500 Hz. Listening to a variety of music on a “mid-fi” rig there is a clear improvement in overall detail in the mid-frequencies, with little difference noted in the two extremes. Now, with hearing compromised, it doesn’t seem worthwhile to go all-in spendy for system upgrades, as the gain in detailed nuances would probably be washed out, or somewhat distorted by the hearing appliances. However, I would be interested in hearing from audiophiles who indeed have compromised hearing, use aids, and can ascertain sonic differences between various pieces of hi-fi kit as one moves up the quality ladder.
I've also used Musician’s Ear Plugs since the 90's. (Along with heavier duty earplugs if necessary). I'll still use them even in a pub/restaurant if it's really loud (and as I'm sort of a "foodie" who loves dining out, it's depressing that restaurants have been ever more deliberately designed to be louder and louder, so they feel like a "happening place.")
As for Tinnitus and sleeping, I decided long ago not to use masking, simply because I didn't like the idea of feeling reliant on some external help. So I just got used to it and generally don't have an issue sleeping. (Unless I've had some recent really loud noise exposure which makes the ringing worse for a while).
I have several systems (Revel Salon 2, B&W 801, PSB, JBL M2) and can hear and remember differences in bass quality which is also room dependent, in soundstaging which is also speaker placement dependent, and dynamic range which is also dependent upon source and amp power. Other than the afore mentioned characteristics, I seem to be unable to hear and REMEMBER the other characteristics that must differienciat the speakers. There have to be differences, but I am unable to distinguish them with the passage of time when having to rely upon audio memory. Were a pair of speakers set in the same space and I was able to switch between them in real time, then I could probably make distinctions. As it is, all my systems seem to give me equal satisfaction when bass quality, sound staging, and dynamic range are taken out of the equation. I confess, I feel really inferior when everyone else makes fine distinctions, and I wonder If their skill is a figment of imagination or actual skill, which probably can really be cultivated, but is probably somewhat rare.
Cdp try using a white noise machine when you sleep, might help worth a shot. I assume you've tried the usual over the counter lipo flavonoid, it helps some people. My MD said taking b12 and reducung salt intake can help a little.
Why do some believe that enjoying music starts with the ability to hear frequencies of 14k and up? My frequency hearing limit is currently around 12k, and I still love music as long as it sounds the way I think it should. I'm way over 60 years of age, but I'm still very much able to hear differences, can hear differences between equipment, specially speakers, so I'm still able to make choices, and to purchase the equipment which sound right to my ears. Anyway, believe me, (and I'm sure most of you know) a vast majority of the audible music is not in the 14k-18k frequency range ;)
Using a tone generator, I'm good from 7Hz to 18kHz. Sometimes audio quality is how it's delivered though, like a CVT vs Automatic in car terminology.
7hz is very Impressive, that would be 2 octaves lower than the lowest note on a piano. I am guessing its a rumble you can hear and not a specific note?
@prof, the hearing test and my learning of the loss of frequencies above 15k was back in my late 30’s, when I had my "Musician’s Ear Plugs" made. A wax mold is made of one’s ear canal, a soft rubber reproduction of it manufactured, which when inserted into one’s ear canal comes out just to the canal entrance. On that end of the plug is a small hole, into which the little plastic tab on the back of provided "attenuators" is inserted. The attenuators are flat discs about 1/2" in diameter and 1/8" thick, available in different values of dB attenuation---5dB, 10, 15, etc.
I’ve used the plugs ever since, and they are great. The attenuation is even across the frequencies, so the resulting sound heard has the same quality as non-ear plug, with only the SPL reduced. The only problem they have caused me is in regard to dynamics---it’s hard to gauge how hard to strike my drums and cymbals to achieve proper balance with the other instruments and vocals. I haven’t had my ears tested since, but my tinnitus has progressed as I’ve gotten older. When I lay down at night, the hissing in my ears (like white or pink noise) is quite noticeable. I put on a CD, and the hissing gets masked.
I'm curious: when you talk about your high frequency hearing loss, did you mean it was already gone 30 years ago, or that now your hearing tops out at 15k? If it tops out at 15k now, and if you are middle aged, that's quite good.
I'm almost 55 and mine tops out just under 15k. Which frankly surprises me, especially given having played in very loud bands earlier in life and working in production sound for 30 years.
There's various on-line "how old is your hearing" tests and I come up with a "hearing age" of between 38 and 40 years old, so not doing too badly at almost 55. But I believe I'm now at the crest in age where hearing starts taking a bigger dive in the high frequencies...so I better get as much listening in while I can enjoy those sparkling highs, while I can!
But, I've been protecting my hearing for a long time. I started noticing Tinnitus in the early 90's and that put the fear-of-gawd in me, so I started protecting my hearing from then on. Many of the guys I played with in bands who didn't protect their hearing are now having some pretty serious hearing issues! Like waking up one morning and all their high frequency is gone!
inna, you still seem to be stretching to come up with justifications for the fact you personally (apparently) just don’t like digital sources.
You are just ignoring what I pointed out before; that analog involves gross changes of the form of carrier for a signal, and your logic works against analog as much as digital. When acoustic energy is transduced into electricity it is then NOTHING LIKE the organic thing that sat in front of the microphone. How much like an actual entire symphony orchestra is a teeny, tiny stream of electricity? And yet a teeny stream of electricity is used to represent an entire orchestra until it reaches the speakers to be translated back to acoustic energy. And..again...sit in front of a live orchestra....look down at the grooves of a record. If you can not admit the astounding alteration that the sound of a symphony has undergone to be changed in to plastic grooves, you just can’t be taken seriously. In trying to portray the digital carrier system as somehow turning real sounds in to some unnatural "other" form, you simply are ignoring the same happens in analog.
Further, your reasoning ought to apply to visual signals as well, such as video cameras and televisions. If your reasoning were correct "you ought to keep the visual information all analog." But the digital TVs and sources of today are now vastly more realistic than any analog TV signals we had before.
We get it. You don’t care for digital. But your rationalisations in trying to go beyond your mere opinion, to prescribing how things ought to be as if you’d found some objective truth to declare, just don’t hold water.
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