How good can it get, really? - my stereo sounds amazing!
I really love my stereo currently. I keep thinking I should be looking for the next piece to upgrade - phono stage, stereo subs, etc., but honestly not sure what to change or why I’d potentially spend more money to achieve a result that’s lesser or equal to my current sound quality. I sorta feel clueless as to how to proceed without screwing up what I have. I know it can get better but honestly I’m at a place when I just don’t know how it can. Hmmmmm.... not a bad problem I guess. Open to suggestions for sure. Thx.
For anyone interested in an explanation regarding why power cables make an audible difference, please read https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/why-power-cables-make-a-difference. Granted, the source of the information is from the founder of Shunyata Research (which is a manufacturer of power cables) so it should be taken with a grain (shaker?) of salt. However, the logic is sound and I have heard the difference myself. I too was once skeptical, but I am not anymore.
The derisive argument often given (see the earlier post by nc03854) is that since the electricity has already traveled 500 miles through all sorts of nasty wire, replacing the last 3 feet with something better cannot possible fix the damage already done. The flaw in that argument is that from the AMPLIFIER's perspective the power cord is the FIRST 3 feet, not the LAST. The alternating current does not flow (like water) from the power company into your amplifier. It oscillates with the current entering and leaving your amplifier via the power cord. The power cord is basically an EXTENSION of the amplifier's transformer which can eliminate EMI/RFI before it enters the amplifier's transformer.
Keep an open mind. "EVERYTHING"- affects a systems sound! Don't get hung up on ANY "Specs"! Take the time and put the work in to hear, "What (IS) possible". As in going to "AXPONA", and other trade shows. And do NOT be that person that is- "Just Looking", at the gear. Listen to it. Ask questions... Eventually you are going to find a set-up, OR several, that simply, "Blows You Away"! Find out why. Talk to the builders. And go from there.
Damn that sounds you have an incredible set up! I doubt I’ll ever take things that far but good for you! That’s awesome. I love people who take things to the extreme. As I’ve stated I do love how my stereo sounds and I’m not really chasing a “live” performance sound, I just want it to sounds great! I feel I’m pretty good at enjoying the music and subjectively analyzing the sound quality at the same time. The sweet spot is when it sounds so damn good you forget to analyze and just enjoy.
Recently, I faced the same dilemma. I have a very good system. However, it is in my nature to always seek "better", even though by now I have taken mine beyond what most people on this forum have proposed as modest to major potential improvements to the original poster's system. For example, the concrete floor of my AV room has been sawed to be physically separated from the rest of my house, then covered with acoustical matting and finally with carpeting; my walls and ceiling are of multilayer sheet rock; acoustical paneling was placed on the walls wherever necessary to minimize undesired reflections; and the room/system itself has been tuned via Dirac Live. Not surprisingly, I have continuously upgraded my equipment (including power conditioning and cabling) for the past 15 years.
Increasingly, I have become aware that (i) the law of diminishing returns is a fact and (ii) the more complex one's audio system, the more interrelated -- and therefore sensitive to even what would seem to be a very modest adjustment -- is its performance, giving rise to the prospect of unintended consequences. My final education, if I can call it that, came last month when I supposedly upgraded a power cord for the Ethernet switch in my system. The result of this was a clearly demonstrable, and significant, degradation of the magnificent sound I had been enjoying.
From this experience, I now am trying to listen exclusively to the music playing -- both to its content and how it sounds and to stop trying to analyze whether the reproduction is sufficiently "life-like". This has been hard for me to do, and yet I intellectually recognize that, given my 73 year old ears, my system is already as good as I can hear.
Why mess with a good thing? If you are satisfied with what you have, why go looking for improvements? It isn't the equipment that you have. It's what your ears hear and whether you are satisfied with it or not. There IS no 'one size fits all".
You added a second Sub to your speaker set up, which I agree with (I have a pair of B2s) however you seem to feel they are a little off ? I will point out that Rel recommends the S/510, the next model up from the T9i as an appropriate match to your B&W 805s.
Yes! I do feel that the low end is off! I think I’m going to upgrade to the S/510s. Thanks!
Its Fantastic that you are happy with your system. Rogue Audio makes great products and has excellent customer service as well. Very friendly for Tube Rolling - NOS Siemens are also some thing to consider along with the previous suggestions of Brimar, RCA and Telefunkens - ECC83, CV4003 - Brent Jesse is a great resource to check out for those products. As a Rogue Amp owner I have found that the more power I supply them (Power Delivery - PC) the better they sound!!!
You added a second Sub to your speaker set up, which I agree with
(I have a pair of B2s)
however you seem to feel they are a little off ? I will point out that Rel recommends the S/510, the next model up from the T9i as an appropriate match to your B&W 805s. There is a significant difference between the two models. I believe due to the frequency response of the B&Ws the T9i may just fall short of covering the range. You may already know this but the Hi Res Neutrik connection is the way to go. Rel sells them, but so does Analysis Plus and Synergistic Research.
So is your pre section of the Rogue totally bypassed ? If not NOS Telefunkens are fantastic.
I’m not sure if the pre in the Rogue is totally bypassed. I would assume that it is given that I’m now using the aux in to run the MS Phonomena II+ pre. The MS pre is a solid state unit that is super quiet and sounds great but I’d really love to get back to an all tube signal path. I’ve been considering either the Rogue Ares Pre or the Herron vtph-2a. They’re both roughly the same price and both get great reviews. The Herron might get a few more positive reviews than the Ares tho... hard to decide!
So is your pre section of the Rogue totally bypassed ? If not NOS Telefunkens are fantastic . On the cheap, 1 in the middle and nos Tungsram or RCA for the other 2. You can find some nice power cords in the $100-200 range. So get a couple that have a return policy . Silnote, Anti-Cables, and Morrow all made a difference in my system . You can always return them . My $1100 power filter DID NOT CHANGE ANYTHING . But when I added a 20 amp Shunyata Venom cord to the filter , it improved the sound . But I highly recommend changing your cheap contractor duplex outlets to Hubble’s or equivalent. About $40 ea , they grip like a vise . My original duplex outlets actually had push spring contacts to connect the Romex, what a joke . Have fun , you have a very nice system . Cheers , Mike B.
Kinda the place I'm at now. I have a great (to me) system consisting of a Linn Klimax streamer, Burmester 077 two piece preamp, Burmester power conditioner, pair of Burmester 911 amps, and a pair of Wilson Alexx speakers. Looking at the Wilson XVX's now. That would cost me $240K after trade in for the Alexx's. Would they sound better? Almost certainly. But would they be worth the money? That's the dilemma! There will always be the next great component. When is enough enough??
Kinda reminds me of the Porsche 993 911 Turbo that I owned with 600HP/ 596 ft lbs torque and could do 200 mph all day, but it just wasn't fast enough for me ?! How much is too much and when do you stop?? I don't have FU money in my audio system but I couldn't get the smile off my face yesterday as I wallowed in music heaven
The Cronus is a nice sounding amp. I had the same amp with the kt-120 tubes and the only thing I did was to replace the preamp tubes, change to a 4 ohm load, and got a nice power cord, which makes a big difference in any system above the Best Buy 1 box units. I sold it because it wouldn’t control the bass drivers, too loose sounding. since you are using 2 subs, this might not be a big deal. Also, since you have B&W speakers, you want a warm sounding amp. The room and speaker positioning are probably the biggest areas you should do before thinking about better equipment. Once you get the room dialed in, then any tweak or improvement you do you will realize the full potential of your purchase. BTW: cables can make a big difference especially if your equipment is of good quality
asvjerry - I agree, the Super Chicken cartoons are pretty lame but the intro just cracks me up "buc buc buc buc!". Give me Firesign Theater and my favorite condiment...
Leave well enough alone....until something gets under your skin about it.
Stop reading everyone else's neurosis' about 'this' and 'that'....or what they feel is an obvious shortfall of a system in a space they've never been to, nor listened to....nor will ever, most likely.
No, scratch that. They Never Will. 'Your brain is still The Boss.' Until you cede such, and allow the herd to stampede you...
Dig It...until you don't. *L*
(Personally, I found Super Chicken to fall short...Invader Zim was more my....style....*L* ;)...)
If it sounds good leave it alone , eventually you will come across a track that reveals something that could use a tweak. It takes time . You are obviously happy thus far which is likely due to the fact you may not actually be in depth listening. Never mind the cables and junk yet . Just listen and listen some more , try and hear what room treatments where used in the recording studio. Understand the instruments and the likely placement of the mics and how many were likely used. Your source material may not allow for this. Music sourced from your phone will sound like 2D whereas an mqa file will most definitely sound 3D . If you can at least hear that difference start with an a/b comparison to get used to the intricacies . After your system is fully evolved you will hear things that the recording studio may not have. Youll know once you come back here and start talking about Porsches and 30,000 dollar dacs you have reached the end. Just be happy and listen.
This thread seems to be segueing toward a discussion of room treatments. Okay ... fine with me.
Furniture affects the sound. If you move your furniture, that affects the sound again. How is moving it not a method of room treatment?
Step one: Place your speakers so you get the best sound out of them. It can take a while to get it right.
Step two: optimize whatever else you can, given the room you have. Clearing it of CDs does help, so does moving bookcases and carpets around (it doesn’t have to be far), so does paying attention to the floor in front of your components and between your speakers. An empty floor is bad — Try putting something there. Really ... Try a few different things. (I settled on a teak chest.) And then re-think you speaker placement, because doing step two carefully should send you back to step one. Step three: isolation and vibration control. Try different products and approaches. I’ve got isoacoustics footers under my Ref 3a Taksims. I like them fine. Much improved bass and air. That has nothing to do with room treatment, but best to get this factor out of the way before taking up ... Step four: room treatments. Look for ones that help. Good luck with that. The best I’ve found have offered only incremental improvements and haven’t been worth it, relative to everything else I’ve done. IMHO looking for room treatments is chasing moonbeams. If your experience is different, happy for you. I’ve heard incremental changes at best, and changes aren’t usually improvements. Diffferrent is not often the same as improved.
finally,
Steep five: play Muddy Waters, Folk Singer all day. Because sooner or later your system’s real stumbling block in going to turn out to be the quality of the recordings you play through it. And that’s the best recorded album I know. (Second place: Laure Favre Kahn playing Reynaldo Hahn.)
Explain to me how anything that resonates can improve the sound unless you are cancelling unwanted resonances. So certainly you are not claiming these resonators are a one size fits all solution.
Re resonators, Helmholtz resonators have to be of the correct size and dimension and in the correct location, otherwise they hurt the sound. Same with crystals, tiny bowl resonators, Mpingo disc, anything that resonates must be in the right location and be the right frequency to improve the sound. Empty beer bottles on the floor HURT the sound, not improve it. In the case of CD jewel boxes they are not the right frequency and there Hundreds of them. Hel-loo! Do the experiment, take them all out of the room. Report your findings.
tomic601, you said, "One problem with subs is - there ain’t much music down there... listen to just them....."
That seems like a strange comment coming from someone who uses Vandy 7's, which have low end response of 22Hz +/-2dB, or just under 20Hz +/- 3 dB. The speaker has built in subs. Vandy even calls them by the fancy term "Fusion Subwoofers". In fact, it's quite a complex subwoofer.
An awful lot of subs reach down from about low 20's to mid teens. Pairing the OP's bookshelf speakers is an immanently sensible thing to do, although I recommended he would be far ahead by getting rid of the bookshelf speakers and getting some serious floor standers.
@cleeds That’s OK. When the early settlers traveled west by covered wagon a lot of them decided to settle in the Mid West rather than hazard the trip further West. I totally understand. 😛
But.... I use Ray Browns excellent CD of Soular Energy to set sub to main interface levels- lots of tasty scale runs that should be relatively even in SPL level.... not ruler flat
Hahaha you guys got yelled at by mom. I love it! - so I added a second sub yesterday and I’m still on fence as to weather I like it or not. The stereo sub setup shares the the right and left signals vs. the single sub which was carrying the load of both signals making it seems tighter, punchier. Maybe I just need more time to play with the crossover settings, etc.
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With respect to the OP, all posts must stay on topic or they will be removed. Any posts accusing others of trolling or citing attacks will be removed as well and the User or Users that wrote them could face Temporary suspension from the forums and Audiogon. This statement pertains to all other threads as well.
Speaking of furniture, a relatively inexpensive way to boost system performance is to support all heavy furniture in the room on cones. Make it your New Year’s resolution. Do it today! Yes, I know what you’re thinking: Are you out of mind?
the hack is trying to do harm, while looking like he isn’t. Posts full of projected and suppositional logic, and so on.
Yup. Some come here to talk about audio, others apparently have other goals and that includes disruption.
What is so-ooo strange about the behavior is that as audiophiles, we already have plenty to disagree about! There’s no need to cultivate arguments that have nothing to do with audio or music.
I have now drifted OT, which only adds to the problem. Eventually the mods will sort this out, as they have in the past.
Like as was said, the hack is trying to do harm, while looking like he isn’t. Posts full of projected and suppositional logic, and so on.
Nary a single useful functional post of any efficacy or forward motion for the forum or forum members has come from his quarter. Just attacks. The record of the hack's posts is clear and consistent.
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