"With old cars you adjust the heat by turning a knob. With new cars you practically have to be a computer programmer to figure it out. There is no need for this complexity."
Amen brother.
The complexity is good for the car service industry though when something goes wrong and has to be fixed. But its marketed based on other terms and people buy into it, literally. |
03-29-05: Detlof: "As time went on, I was forced to realise, that my mind got more and more entrapped by the gear and less by the message the music might have to convey. This was not merely bad, because through this, I became more aware of that musical message, which managed to get through the audiophile smog"...Could "audiophile smog" be defined as: manipulation of the sound in a certain way, which, in turn, draws attention to the component itself and not the music? It's no wonder people get audiophile nervosa. It plays on the thought "I just spent $10,000 on a preamp I want to HEAR what I got for my money." Result = listening to the component, not the music. Look at new cars compared to old cars. With old cars you adjust the heat by turning a knob. With new cars you practically have to be a computer programmer to figure it out. There is no need for this complexity. The result is that it draws attention to the controls and not the act of getting some heat. Some type of pride by the designer? |
First: try to go objective as much as possible to cut down brands to pour over. If you hate solid state, great, you have just wiped out over half the products out there. Narrow it down further to SET and you've wiped out, say, another 80%.
Second: Get components which do not draw attention to themselves. A highly colored amp (like Naim to my ears) is fun for a while (Naim has rhythm) but gets fatiguing in the long run. Sorry to all Naim owners out there - just trying to make an example.
Third: Get a system which has no blatant flaws to YOU. A system that satisfies on its own terms. Because if you listen and say "This lack of bass is annoying" or "They HF harshness is irritating" you can't listen in peace and always itch for something else (I'm not even saying better)
Fourth: Ignore magazines which try to undermine your security. Shake people's confidence in their own stereo and then they are open to buying something new. |
The simple answer is you find what works, and stick with it. That means know when to stop.
Like many (most?) here, I've bought and sold more hi-fi components than I can count, trying this new source, or swapping one amp for another, changing these speakers for those other ones, etc.
For me personally, I got off the merry go round when I found components that sounded simply spectacular, and everything else I was trying just didn't sound as good. Of course it's a subjective thing, and what sounds good to me, may not to you. Not to mention the different listening room shapes and sizes that will make a component sound great in one room, but not so good in another.
FWIW, my "I got off the merry-go-round" components are the following:
Tyler Acoustics taylo reference monitors
Decware Zen Torii mk3 integrated amplifier
North Star m192 mk2 DAC
Slim Devices Transporter
The transporter is connected to the DAC via balanced AES/EBU. All interconnect and speaker cables in my system are from Blue Jeans cable. Power cables are generic IEC hospital grade.
I'm in listening bliss, nearly everything it plays is the perfect balance of detailed, musical, warm, and massive 3D soundstage. I have no desire whatsoever to change any of these components - I don't even browse the equipment classifieds any more. I couldn't be happier!
Again, this stuff is all quite subjective, so take it with a grain of salt, but now you know my experience. |
Early on in my audio career, the choice was FM versus LPs. With WFMT available, all was good. Then there was Eugene and Tallahassee with a brief time in Philly. The only real music was on public radio. FM radio was on decline. While I still have a FM receiver, it has not been on in twenty years. In short for me "streaming" is gone. Now, however, I have a music servers, but I do no streaming from it throughout the house. We have a house intercom system which allows listening to a fairly good NPR station.
For me the thrill of audio is realism. The music server makes it easy to get even DSD files and HD 96/24 and 192/24 files in addition to cds. I must say, however, that if I want real music, it is still vinyl. And now with real isolation available thanks to StillPoints, I have achieved realism especially with vinyl. I am at many very special performance available on demand.
I certainly appreciate that had I gotten out of audio earlier, I would never have known such realism and the thrill of it. |
"Flipping the same recordings over and over to make comparisons is a completely different experience then enjoying music. Which would you prefer?"
I've headed down the latter path in recent years as a result of bringing in internet radio, music server, etc.
My favorite station now is my own, Mapman Radio, which streams on my home Wifi network only off my music server with Squeezebox set to random tracks.
I add to the musical rotation there more liberally now than I have since 30 years ago in college. |
What slowed me down was music itself. While streaming Pandora may be in an opposite direction as far as sound quality is concerned, getting exposure to unfamiliar content is a step in the right direction,for me.
Flipping the same recordings over and over to make comparisons is a completely different experience then enjoying music. Which would you prefer? |
I found the perfect way about ten years ago: divorce.
Allowed me to unload $25K worth of brilliant equipment in about three months. Now, ten years later, I can look at the merry go round, but I doubt I'd ever get back on it. |
- Abuck -You may be doomed but what a way to go. |
My basement system is comprised of a Marantz 2252 rcvr, a Denon cdp, and various speakers I switch in and out. Vintage JBL's, Cerwin Vega's, Wharfedales, Advents, etc. I get nearly as much enjoyment out of them as I do the main rig. I guess I'm doomed... |
I also have three systems, but the main system is far superior so listening to the other two is always a bit of a let down.
I've spent a life time trying to get friends interested in audio and on the so called merry go round, now some people here want to get folks off it, thats when you start to lose interest. Changing components is what makes this hobby interesting and makes it a hobby not just a pass time. |
Having more than one system to provide some variety in sound can help. |
.
Someone said on this forum several years ago "we're all as crazy as we can afford to be".
There is no way off once you've gotten on. So, you'll stay on the merry-go-round for as long as you have money, or until you pass on to the great high-end audio salon in the sky.
. |
as long as you go in a straight line you will avoid the merry-go-'round.
you must have a goal, otherwise, you will never be satisfied.
those who continually buy and sell for its own sake or to hear a different performance are obsessive compulsive audio consumers. don't be an obsessive compulsive audiophile and you will never enter the merry-go-round. |
phd- Now I understand why you chose this thread to post about Pubul.
When I originally read the thread about Pubul, I read all of his archived posts.
He was a real asset. |
Isochronism, I don't think Pubul57 was on the merry go round to that degree anyway, mostly active in the forums. Case in point, I believe this thread was one of the last he participated in.
As far as getting off the merry-go-round, we all will eventually take that big leap one way or another. |
Phd- Yes, very sad news. He was a very helpful and loved member here.
So... your point is that dying is a way to get off the merry-go- round ? |
I'm afraid that I am the bearer of horrible news. Pubul57 has passed away. I just recently learned of this via a thread started 4/18/12 under the category of "best of" in the Audiogon forums. He has been a active member of this audio community for quite sometime as well as this thread. He will be sorely missed! |
The uninformed and unknowing go round and round, the wise go up and away. |
Look at the upgrading AS the merry-go-round. A treadmill getting you nowhere, or even worse, REVOLVING CREDIT. It's not that hard to jump off if you look at other things being the finer things in life, not just stereo. |
Yes, and don't go to live concerts! (; |
Don't listen to dealers or reviewers!!!!!!!!!! |
I just realized that my dedicated circuits put in 22 years ago are my oldest system parts. |
Mrtennis, good one, I think you have spoken from the heart as your statement is consistant with most all of your posts. Well done!
Cdc, I have done just that and my room of choice was the bathroom. Just rig it to start playing music everytime you flush the toilet, you will reach a rational decision. |
Good analogy ( Onemug ) An upgrade path is a continual improvement, a merry go round goes nowhere, but at least your merry. Actually changing components regularly sounds like fun and is probably educational, but don't do it unless you have the spare funds. |
Cdc, you would have to put shorting leads on all speakers except that you are listening to for this to work. |
1) Set up every stereo in one room.
2) Listen to them all and decide which is best.
Then there is nothing more to chose from and you have selected the best stereo to your tastes. |
an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
don't be an equipment chaser and you will save a lot of money.
if you don't have ocd, it should be possible to configure a decent stereo system the first time and not need to continually upgrade.
if you find yourself out of control, seek help. |
First, I would differentiate between "merry go round" and "spiral staircase". They both go round and round, at least with the ss you get a little higher (better?) each time around. The mgr stays the same.
So hopefully you do get a little better each go around. Just take charge of you life and decide when enough is enough. If you feel you have a disorder, spend the money on professional help rather than a new set of cables or ?.
Re Mr Tennis, "don't enter the merry-go-round--problem solved." Good preventative advice, not a good answer to someone already there.
Scenario:
Drowning man: "How do I stop drowning?"
Mr T: "Don't go in the water".
DM: "I'll remember that next time but how about some help right now".
Just having a little fun :). |
Don't make mistakes...Buy the right equipment the first time, and you won't fall into the upgrade trap. I have all the money I want for this hobby, but spending it foolishly just isn't for me. Quality doesn't cost, it pays. Happy listening. |
Mr. Tennis sez: Just Say No and, while you're at it, Abstinence Only |
Mrtennis,, your right , who wants to have a bunch of fun anyway, when you can sit back and complain and save money doing it. Glad you've sorted that out for us. |
the question:
"how does one get off the marry-go-round" has a simple answer.
don't enter the merry-go-round--problem solved. |
Hello Foster, Never said upgrading was cheap and I guess affordable would depend on your financial position. I do enjoy spending time with the family, spending time at the lake and listening to our smaller audio system there.
But my real passion is music and hearing it reproduced as well as I can make it, and I honestly can't recall ever regretting making a purchase.
A few years back I sold my business and retired, I now work just enough to purchase some of the finer things in life that I couldn't afford before, audio is one of them. Here in western Canada the economy has been extremely strong, so getting a good paying part time job three blocks from home was not difficult. Yes I no I'm lucky, but after a lifetime of hard work maybe I've earned it.
As far as the merry-go-round, I do enjoy the ride, but that being said, all my audio purchases have been well thought out, well listened out, and have been a true step up and those components stay long term. I have no use for people that chase there tail with the flavor of the month.
Best regards Tim |
Sailcappy speaks words of wisdom.....
Obsessive behavior is seldom a good thing, whether it be supersizing it at McDonalds or watching your money fly into the wind on the audio merry go round. |
I think what I have also learned is that the Merry Go Round is about unnecessary purchases, over tweaking and just plain obsessive behavior. I have slowed down and enjoy reading reviews, visiting dealers and poking around in general. I think upgrading is natural for an audiophile who just wants to improve on what they have if they have the means. |
Instead of always upgrading, another aplroach to sate ones desire for alternate sounds is to build multiple systems in different rooms if tnat is an option.
I have 2 already and have eyes on a third in a smaller room using higher efficiency speakers, and either a low power tube or class a amp. |
Tmsorosk, you must have the disposable income in order to look forward to upgrading. From your statement, the merry-go-round is an affordable place. Good for you! But not everyone can afford the cost of staying on the merry-go-round and attempting to upgrade. |
Why would anyone want to get off the merry-go-round, upgrading is one of the few things I look forward to anymore, I mean after my girls, ( wife and daughter ). |
"It's not that specs insure a good sounding match, but that they can point out a less than optimal, or even bad matching."
That's exactly correct. Assuming the specs are reliable which one must assume if they are if coming from a reliable source.
This helps narrow down the contenders to those that fit best on paper and perhaps even prioritize them based on something quantifiable. From there, its listen and see and move on if/when needed. |
It's not that specs insure a good sounding match, but that they can point out a less than optimal, or even bad matching. For speakers you really need to look at the actual graph of their impedance with phase angles.
Regarding your earlier long post, my take away is that you read too many reviews and thought you knew what you wanted. A better approach might have been to select your speaker and then let the dealer put together the rest of the system. For the amount of money you were willing to spend it would have saved you much time/effort and would have placed any operational issues onto the dealer. |
1000w is a good choice all other things aside for 86DB efficient speakers.
2000 is a very high damping factor. In general, that is a good thing in regards to assuring good control of driver and avoiding "flabby bass". THat may not be ideal for some speakers though, depending, and might result in a sound that is too lean. Lower damping <50 would be a valid thing to consider to address that.
I do not see input impedance specs? That might be important especially if a tube pre-amp is used. |
Mapman,
I know we are taking this thread in a slightly different direction but let's take my current system:
My amp spects are
1000w @ 4ohm 500W @ 8ohm
Damping Factor 2000 into 8ohm
Neutrik Silver XLR Differential inputs -2V for full output
>119dba Dynamic Range
dc - 38khz Frequency Range
83% Total Effeciency at 500W @ 8ohm
And my Speaker specs are:
Frequency Range: 38 Hz to 46 kHz
Sensitivity: 86 dB
Impedance: 8 ohm nominal / 4 ohm minimum
How would someone use this information to help decide on if they are a match for sound quality? |
Sail,
In chosing an amp, i found limiting choices to those with certain damping factir, power, current, and input impdedance spec ranges helped to find a good match to my speakers and tube pre-amp faster.
Phono rigs in particular are also usually best assembled based on various specs for matching cart to tonearm.
Also of course feature specs are important to find the right options in addition to delivering good sound. |
Take an interest in something else or your system will never be completed. When it comes to sales Johnny Boey is the order of the day. |
Mapman - I sort of understand your meaning of "learning how to leverage component specifications into the buying decision." Can you give me an example?
Seems I hit a nerve with this story and I did not write about it all! |
Mapman, the computer chip in the key is for security reasons, not to make ignition better. The chip *talks* to the chip in the engine and says "I am trying to start this vehicle legitimately". If someone tries to start the vehicle without using the matching key, the car alarm will go off. I'm sure it won't deter professional car theifs, but it does provide a level of security for amatuers. BTW, I'm driving a 2008 Toyota Avalon....nice car. :)
Also, it cost about $300 for the full service key, but you can have a spare 'valet' key made for around $90. The valet key has no buttons on it, and will not open the glove box. |
Sailcappy,
FWIW, one thing that can help somewhat that I do not see mentioned in your story, is learning how to leverage component specifications into the buying decision. This is the only way to inject anything objective into the complex decision making process involved with getting one's "ultimate sound". Some specs are useful, some are not. But they are often the only thing concrete you can go by when trying to decide what components might work best with others. |
Quite a good post Sailcappy! I can't recall all the details of the merry-go-round I've had. |
You know how? Audition with your own ears. If you can't hear it, don't buy it. Or, familiarize yourself with the reviewer of your favorite gear. Know his taste and style and set the standard for yourself. The classifieds are full with the gear purchased impulsively. |
