Cindyment,
The above question was to you, in case that wasn't clear
How do you know when a stereo sounds good?
When do you know your system is pleasing to listen to? How do you conclusively prove to yourself that your system sounds good to you? How do you determine that you enjoy listening to music through your stereo? Do you have a suite of measurements that removes all shadow of a doubt that you are getting good sound, sound that you enjoy? Please share.
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Well, at least you learned one thing... |
Ask a relevant question @boxer12 , and I will answer it. I played around with cables, etc. 25+ years ago, realized I was an idiot, and moved on. You? Nothing I observed was not easily explained and the usual explanation was bias. |
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@jerryg123 , do you mean Ted Denney's group? That is the only audiophile hate group I am aware of on Facebook. |
To be PRECISE...
I dont pretend that my actual audio system in my controlled room is BETTER than any audio system here on Agon... NOT AT ALL.... I pretend ONLY and I KNOW that there is no comparison between my audio room BEFORE AND AFTER this acoustically treated and controlled acoustic implementation , even not optimally designed, but with my own devices, instead of the costlier more efficient work of an acoustician; there is no comparison anyway between my audio system BEFORE and AFTER my acoustical embedded controls with Helmholtz method... NO comparison at all....
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Sorry but i dont put anything in the mouth of people and suppose nothing...Being polite is my policy.... Try to stick ONLY on argument...Anyway we are lucky to have an OP who knows some audio....I only make my experience known.... Thats all.... By the way my acoustic treatment an acoustic devices controls were made of discarded plumbers artefacts and other junk material.... Helmholtz was not bothered by price " tag" of his bottles being a scientist, me too, being not very loose with money..... Cost = peanuts... I am living proof that you could do your own job without buying ANYTHING... |
No, that’s unfair; look back at my very first post which offers one other way to construe the question. Further answers have been interesting, too. So, no -- I’m not saying there can only be one answer. Give me some credit. Can’t help advance you on the science fiction question. |
Good observation! thanks ... Great hall acoustic differ completely of small room acoustic...
Reflections and reverberation time for example are not used the same way... We can use POSITIVELY in a small room the reverberation time to improve the imaging... In a great Hall there exist general principles of design very well known by MILLENIA beginning with the geniuses Greek architect of theater... Small room acoustic is a very late and contemporary subject matter existing only for decades....Who was looking for a small audio room acoustically designed in 1950 ? How many? Even now people THINK that the S.Q. COMES from the speakers DIRECTLY....And from their amplifiers...they ignore that the final waves to reach their ears has crossed their room hundred of times in ONE SECOND...For my 13 feet room : 83 times... Each ear by Haas principle of first frontwave give to the brain a DIFFERENT time responses in MILLISECONDS...Anyway.... It is easy to study that...And what are the implication for the way the brain construct imaging for example and others acoustical cues....
Most audiophiles were CONDITIONNED like i was about electronic design orientation toward GEAR selling not toward ACOUSTIC of small room... I was deluded myself by this general ignorance LESS THAN A YEAR AGO...This is the reason behind my posts here...Acoustic may cost peanuts ....Or a small dedicated room can easily cost more than 100,000 bucks... My room is not perfect but BEAT my 7 headphones....
I am pretty sure the OP of this thread KNOW very well this matter subject by the way.... And better than me, Ask him....I am not an acoustician nor a specialist in audio myself....Just a customer without money who was dreaming Hi-FI and knowing how to read books about acoustic or others, i created my own devices......
I dont need an upgrade now why? My audio system is not perfect at all being low cost and my room was created by me not by a pro at high cost... Because my sound quality make me able to listen the ORIGINAL acoustic cues from the original live recorded event ( It is not perfect, but Goddam good) so well i can forget audiophile expanse till my death....I never ask for perfection with a 500 bucks audio system...But i am not envious anymore of high cost system even if their potential are better than mine...i listen music with good S.Q. fore the FIRST time in my life then i am very satisfied... ALL my albums sound great not only the few audiophile recordings i own... Music through sounds and sound through musics....Not one without the other....
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For sure there exist 2 methods to fine tune the room acoustically: BY EARS or with a MIC and an electronical equalizer...
But ask any acoustician about electronical equalizer... They dont use it generally and if they do it is only a secondary tools... I use my ears with my timbre recognition BIAS for sure... But the fact that 2 people EARS and hearing bias are different CANNOT made acoustical principle in Helmholtz method VOID and useless...
Acoustic principles are not "tweaks" they are science.... The way you use them is according to your SPECIFIC EARS for sure... I use Helmholtz resonators and diffusers grid.... Nothing is a "tweak" here for 2 reason: it cost NOTHING to experiment with that, i used cheap bottles and plumbers tubes... And "tweaks" is about a particular READY MADE SOLD device, Helmholtz method in acoustic is not a "tweak"... Tweak are secondary addition to an audio system in the audiophile lingo... Acoustic is not a secondary addition to an audio system, it is ESSENTIAL and a dedicated room is the more important luxury in audio... |
Your room acoustic treatments are tweaks. You are modifying the spatial volume of your room or affecting how the sound waves reflect or diffract. Whether you modify signal before the speaker or modify the sound waves after the speaker doesn’t matter. You are still tweaking the sound to suit your own personal belief of the ideal sound. Your ideal of what is good is not necessarily anyone else’s ideal. If you have to tell people they are believing in magic because you can’t hear what we do, then you need more art in your life. |
First, someone who sell pieces of gear will say: your feeling about yourt system is not enough... You need this piece of gear to increase your experience...The measuruments AND your listening experience would say so...
Second, it is not false to speak like that, but ANY "TWEAKS" must be experimented in a good acoustic settings first... WHY ? Because many costly tweaks even good one COULD be useless or way less useful in a good acoustic settings... I sell creativity not products... Acoustic is the black matter in audio and the elephant in the room....NO TWEAKS in my system could replace my acoustic treatment and controls anyway... Even those i tried and which worked well... NONE.... |
hilde45 I think the purposes of the OP’s questions were to see if anybody had an explanation different from "I just feel it and know it." I agree with you that the vast majority of the answers will likely be that one, but that doesn’t mean someone might have a different way of saying it or a different perspective. To you, there’s only one answer and the question was meaningless, but you can’t know ahead of time what the other answers will be. Maybe someone will surprise you with an answer you hadn’t yet considered. And you still didn't explain the science fiction part of your reply. |
There is not right or wrong in people attitudes...They are free and had the right to their own experience and justification... But in audio there is right or wrong about to manage the way to reach a good S.Q. For example basic acoustic installation active and passive is way more important than the choice between 2 good pieces of gear for an upgrade.... How do you know your gear qualitative peak without putting them in an optimal environment?
Who want to upgrade "blindly" or partially deaf because he does not know what his speakers/amplifier/dac are able to do in an ideal room, who want upgrading based on publicity and without any control on mechanical, electrical and acoustical working dimensions?
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Because while there are rights and wrongs, or at least valid and false claims. That is what is hard for many to accept. It's fun to believe in magic, but magic is illusion. It is not real. |
Thanks great post!
But there is 2 part in acoustic management for a small dedicated room... 1) Balancing diffusion/reflection/ and absorption is conventional passive materials treatment.. 2) active mechanical control with Helmholtz resonators and diffusers are the missing part of your acoustic description... And you mix together many things that perhaps dont work with some which work... I own a grid of cheap Schuman generators i myself modified and it work...But the audible effect, at the same time subtle and powerful, could be hidden by a not so much refine room or a problematic system, for example with speakers not isolated mechanically from vibrations or in a house with a too high electrical noise floor .... In the race to reach a good S.Q. people rush to EASY solutions, and some begin to try Shuman generators but it is not this that we must begin with in the first place....It is way better to eliminate vibrations from the speakers for example....or like you justly said manage material acoustic passive treatment...
The problem is people are ready to pay for costlier "tweaks" BEFORE learning the basic acoustic... My best to you....
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When you take the time to learn how audio works, and then instead of wasting your money on things like magic fuses, over priced cable, AC noise isolators that do nothing, Schuman toys, teensy acoustic resonators, and all manor of stuff that does little or nothing, and spend time and money on the stuff that matters oh, like acoustic panels, bass control including sub arrangements, achieving an in-room response that is effective, learning to balance direct/reflective sound, and speakers that don't distort ... then you may have a system that sounds good. However, you know you really have reached the pinnacle when the owner of an audiophile tweak company goes out of his way to insult you on audio forums. |
This is called a circular reasoning... This is a publicity motto... Sorry.... This is even used for decades to sell new upgrading product... i always liked myself all my pieces of gear, one after the other all my life....But was never satisfied really... Guess why?
The only way to know if your system sound at his potential working peak, nevermind the gear, is by acoustic control... After that all your albums sound interesting, all of them reveal the acoustical choices made at the recording time... My worst album acoustically are now revealing and interesting... If you look ONLY for very good audiophile recording it is a sign that your system dont worked at his potential working peak YET...WHY? When your audio system is under control, all albums are suddenly musical in their own way, with specific acoustical choices and trade-off made by the recording engineer and even the bad one are interesting to know...
Music through sound and sound through music....Not one without the other.... |
The sound waves travel my small room at a speed of sound, 343 meters per second or 1125 feet per second...... My room is 13 feet square... More than 80 crossing through my room each second...
This means my room atmosphere is like a tense violin cord....So sensible to any small change that is is easy to hear any new elements introduced in a room we already know... My brain#ears decipher sound waves differently each one of them and make decision in SOMETIMES ONE MILLISECOND... ( Hass effect) Then anything in the room, any acoustic material content, his geometry and the topology of the room, will deteriorate sound or improve its recognition in a way far greater than upgrading a good amplifier for a so called better one...
It is acoustic who dictate sound quality AT THE END...Not measurements of electronical piece of gear nor our own satisfaction after an upgrade... Not the branded name of speakers or amplifiers... Buy good gear FIRST and forget them after that , and read about acoustic.... And no acoustic tweaks will replace acoustic control...On the opposite we may replicate any tweak effect in a room by using acoustic treatment and acoustic Helmholtz mechanical control.... For example using angles in my speakers position and an acoustic screen i mimic an headphone effect ( the sound floating not in my head but around my head with some recording)... But it is more easy to buy ready made costlier product than making our own acoustic listening experiment for sure...I dont negate the usefulness and practicality of products at all.. Few people use an audio dedicated room like i did... I just want to make my point known....Acoustic reign supreme in audio... Objectivism or subjectivism about the gear is a deceptive marketing effect RESULTING from years of customers publicity conditioning...
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To me it sounds good when the music can have a deep effect on me. When it sounds exceptional, then you will have shivers when you hear the song next time coming up even on TV or on your phone - even a low quality playback will be enough to recall the experience and bring you back to when you heard the song "for the first time for real". Of course, this cannot be true for every music we play, as let's be frank - most live music is quite mediocre. Recordings take a notch (or several notches) down from there. Yet, when you have a life changing live performance or song that talks to your soul, even taking that notch down is still a much more fulfilling experience than a whole bunch of mediocre live shows. That's how I know when a stereo system sounds good. Just forget about mesurberating. You will instantly know when the system sounds good. People will look as if they got an adrenaline shot or are just back from a trip to a different universe. When you need to reason the qualities, then there's always room to improve. In short, when you get a Life Changing Experience, then it sounds good. |
Most people fell in the pit of measurements as proof of the system S.Q. ( this is not even false for sure, measurements are NECESSARY tools in engineering) Or most others retreated in their subjective trench: if i like it, it must be good... ( this is not even false either) This is no argument but a watchword for common place statement....
My main point : Objectivist and subjectivist alike IDOLIZE the gear... Where is acoustic power in this insane logic?
I never know what my gear sound potential could be BEFORE acoustic treatment and control... |
I am a bit short on time, so I can say this, briefly and hope it makes sense.
I determine I enjoy listening to music in the same way I determine I'm in pain: I just feel and know it. The puzzle to me was why someone with access to their own mind would ask this question. That's why my initial post proposed another way to ask the question. And those who have answered it clearly took it as posed in that other way, or they'd have had nothing to say. Gotta leave it there. |
+1 |
This is quite possibly a subject that could be great for a new thread, should there be an opportunity. My initial thoughts are that it has always been in existence of course, but only in recent times has it become so over-used in many areas of our day-to-day life its use and mis-use is becoming thoroughly transparent (and maybe even passe, as you suggest. I don't know). |
hilde45 My confusion comes from your interpretation of what the OP wrote. He didn't ask: "How does someone else determine that you enjoy listening to music through your stereo?". That's how you interpreted his question but I don't think that's what he asked (it's possible I'm still confused). He asked: "How do you determine that you enjoy listening to music through your stereo?". That question is directed at the person listening to the music. I think the simple answer is if it brings pleasure, one is likely enjoying listening to music. Just like if you have pain, you know it yourself (I'm living proof of this one). The other part of your reply that I did not understand was the science fiction scenario. I didn't get what that meant either. |
"Angels on pins, I’m counting angels on pins...." All audio can sound ’good’, until it hits the listeners’ ears. I’m somewhere betwixt the last 2.... |
@grislybutter sure okay good deal. See you around I guess.
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Hello, ted_denney! Churches with choirs are the easiest and cheapest places to hear live music. Find a church in your area that is offering a free, live music, Christmas program. Go to it, sit up front, and listen carefully. Does you system sound like that? If so, be happy. If not, where is it falling short? Now, you have a place to focus for making improvements. Enjoy the music. |
Why are so many getting all bent out of shape? Its simple, I know it sounds great because it sounds great to me. My system has an audience of one, me. Could it sound better? Absolutely. Things can always be made better. Sometimes this can be a dramatic difference, like the recent modifications I did to my heavy plinth diy Lenco. Damped the top plate, fine tuned the isolation base I built and braced/coupled the main bearing. Huge improvement in the sonic presentation. So I know it can be better, but it’s still great as it is. |
You said: "It’s like asking the question, "Am I in pain?" That’s not a question I can make sense of without some kind of science fiction scenario." Can you elaborate on that paragraph? I don’t understand what you are trying to say. The OP asked for someone beside himself how he could know if he was enjoying music. I said, that’s like asking someone else "Am I in pain." That sentence does not make sense to you. It doesn’t make sense to me, either. That’s why the equivalent sentence, "Am I enjoying my stereo?" is equally senseless. It’s an ill-formed question and cannot be answered. See, SEP, e.g. to read more. |
when you spent your kids’ College funds on cables: that’s when you know. I have the feeling the folks buying these cables have what I call "screw you money" and their children want for nothing. Unlike you who seem to have an issue with this. It is not like these cable manufacturers are selling Smack, Skagg, China White, Mexican Brown. Giving you your fist taste for free to set the hook. I have an issue with the entire post as it is subliminal PR. But if people want spend their hard earned money, or their kids inheritance on these cables then good for them. We know your position on cables and you are a Anti Cabler so move on you are coming across as a troll.
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