How big of a difference do amps make?

Amps make a SIGNIFICANT difference. I bought a set of vandersteens recently (1Ciz’s and matching center channel) and had exceeded budget so did not invest in an amplifier upgrade. At home I have a 3 year old Yamaha RXV 385 which is the low end of Yamaha amplifier  offerings at Best Buy! The candy’s sound amazing.even with those.

For example … listening to King Crimson’s  “Court of the Crimson King”  I noticed fir the first time the whisper soft roll on a kettle drum in the intro - that I have never heard before!

But I wanted even better. In another room I have a 6 year old Yamaha RXV-475 which is supposedly a step up from the 385 with more power. Surprisingly the sound quality with the 485 was a significant step down from the 385! It was nit as full - mid range appeared dull and muted and highs were hissy.

So, in my experience, even different model Amps from the same manufacture can make a audible difference.

I have a Jolida 1501 (in need of some repair) that I will try next as soon as I get it fixed, and the fact that even 2 Yamaha mass market amps sound different, makes me feel that the Jolida will be a step up! Can’t wait to hear it! 

 

 

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Big difference, wow what a smart question??

I am considering to get Roksan Kandy KA-1 Stereo Integrated Amplifier for my bose 901. should i go for it.

Atmasphere: Thanks for the heads-up.

Ironically, I'm currently considering updating my speakers to the new "PX" panel configuration, the "Hot Rod" update and as you mentioned, to the Toroid II "Consummate" backplate update instituted in the last couple of months. It would appear that each by themselves is a worthy upgrade, but taken in total, probably a major improvement to a speaker that after 10-years of ownership, is one that I still find so alluring and enjoyable!

I do appreciate your contributions in this and other forums.
And your amps would be ones that I would love to hear with the Soundlabs.

I been told by more than a few folks that the decision between Atma-Sphere's and the CAT's is an extremely difficult one! In a way, at the time, I'm sorta' glad that I didn't have the wherewithal to make it. Rather than comparing the Parasound Halo's with the CAT's and my Levinson, if my dealer had carried Atma-Sphere’s, I could have been a very confused, and conflicted lad! As it was, the decision was a no brainer -- even one that I could handle (grin)!

BTW, although you may not recall, we did speak in your room at the 2012 RMAF. I asked if you had seen Thom Mackris at the show. I thought Thom living in Colorado, might have made it. He's been to the house 1,000 miles from his home, twice, and he’s one of my favorite folks in this hobby! I'm sorry that I didn't get to see him.

Mrmb, if you have Soundlabs, you might want to know that Dr. West has made a change to the back panel that has resulted in the speaker being a lot easier to drive! In addition to being easier to drive it also sounds a lot better and is a more beneficent load to the amp.

Mrmb,
Very nice post and well expressed thoughts.Nothing substitutes for actually listening and judging for your self.Our ears are such a vital gift if we would just trust them.I`ve heard the CAT power amplifier, I`m not surprised it replaced your M.Levinson amp.
Regards,

Yes Charles1dad, my former amps with the 100 Watt/Ch. output were greatly underrated in terms of power output.

Moreover, they didn't fit the "tubey" sound attributed to tubes that is assumed by some.

Sonically, these push-pull behemoths resemble SET amps much more than do the former. If fact, they are the most SET sounding -- but able to virtually drive anything -- amps that I have ever encountered. But then again, there goes another stereotype.

They were CAT (Convergent Audio Technology) JL1 monoblocks.

My present CAT's are the JL3's. And although rated at 150 watts/Ch. they utilize a similar (if not the same) extremely high quality transformer as my former JL1's -- compared to most other transformers, robust would be an understatement!

So, as with most things in this hobby (and life in general) generalizations about amp types, DAC types, cable types, Turntable types, etc., are just that, generalizations -- applicable in some cases, but definitely NOT in all, or even in most. The trick is to trial enough equipment and learn enough to dispel the generalizations.

Variables between component types abound. And while the term synergy is perhaps used too much, some components do indeed synergize and others don't, regardless of the types or prices etc. This is why I frequent forums such as this? To obtain differing opinions, some of which may fly in the face of common beliefs (read generalizations).

Before dragging home my first pair of 400 pound CAT JL1's, I too wasn't certain that they (at 100Watts/Ch.) would drive my Soundlabs. Nor was I certain that they would do so with the nuanced manner and authority that I had become accustomed. But man, I was wrong! My initial thoughts/beliefs/generalizations were proven quite incorrect and my effort was more than rewarded! Probably the best find that I ever made in this hobby. That's why so many of us recommend that one must try/listen, try/listen and try/listen some more! It's the reason I attended RMAF this year.

Although CAT is rarely found mentioned in the mainstream audio media, or at shows, lots of praise can be found for CAT preamps; so much so, that CAT amps are oftentimes overlooked. But my experience with a difficult-to-drive speaker, suggests that amps -- and CAT in particular -- do make a huge difference!

Mrmb,
I`ve heard that happen with some systems also, it depends on the particular speaker being driven.I `d bet your tube amplifiers have very good quality transformers and a stout power supply. Numbers and specifications on a sheet of paper don`t tell the entire story.
Regards,

I enjoy robust, powerful, high-current amp(s).

Interesting observation Mbovaird: "Huge difference. Going from SS to tube is great if you have very efficient speakers. Otherwise, you will become frustrated quickly."

I had the opposite experience. Switching from a 350w/ch Levinson 336 to a 100 w/ch tube amp was an audio revelation - certainly not a frustration!

In fact, in the case of my current tube amps, I learned that those 100 tube watts completely/totally belied their capability. The amps/watts simply trounced the Levinson & Parasound Halo 400w/ch monoblocks across the audio spectrum, including the bass & control of my M1 Soundlab full-range stats.

Just got the Thor monos hooked up. Very different. Suprised at the bass from 30 watts. gotta work on speaker placement and room set up. Plan on doing an A/B with ss amp.

One of the Thor monos came in today. Has new tubes and the gentleman I bought them from basicly threw in a nice set of speaker cables to boot. Hope the other arrives tomorrow.
Gotta get a couple power cords and should be ready to fire them up !!

You'll get better seperation with mono's too. If you keep the Thors, get a new set of tubes plus a couple of extras for back up and you should be set for a while.

I am going from ss H/K Citation to Thor 30 watt monos. I will be doing an A/B Comparison. Cant wait.

Newbee
Marantz sa-8004 should be here soon.

Atmosphere,
Thanks for your info on the paradigms and harmonics. Interesting.

Well, based on your earlier explanation on how the 2 types differ,even order was clearly in charge of the show last night.
Regards,

Yes- naturally, real instruments have sounds composed of both even and odd-ordered harmonics :)

Huge difference. Going from SS to tube is great if you have very efficient speakers. Otherwise, you will become frustrated quickly. How efficient? My rule of thumb is 90db or higher - but if your tube amp has low power, then much hire db efficient speakers are needed. Room size is also key. If you have a big room (say anything bigger than 10 x 15), then you will need even higher efficient speakers.

The other option is to look at some big tube amps like the Mcintosh 2301's. Then, 90db efficient speakers or higher should be fine IMO.

Mike

Listening to a live jazz quartet(alto sax,B3 Hammond,guitar and drums) last night there must have been a lot of 2nd and low order harmonics present in that club. Those instruments were quite warm,full tone and rich. One thing they were`nt was lean,thin, washed out or bright. So I guess the instruments were`nt producing those odd and higher order harmonics. If that`s the explanation.The tone of the alto and guitar were the antithesis of clinical,lean and bright last night.
Regards,

'Coloration' usually refers to a tonality. 'Richness' in the midrange is a common coloration caused by the presence of a 2nd harmonic in tube amps.

The ear hears harmonic distortion as a tonality.

It is also the most sensitive to bird song frequencies, and uses odd ordered harmonics to determine how loud a sound is.

As a result it is more sensitive to these harmonics than any other phenomena of sound; much more so than human vocal ranges!

So if the equipment makes odd ordered harmonics, even in vanishingly small amounts, we hear it, and have words for it: harsh, bright, hard, clinical, etc.

We hear lower ordered harmonics (2nd, 3rd and 4th) as richness. The ear finds these harmonics less objectionable; in tests people will not complain even if 30% 2nd harmonic is present. That is not entirely true with audiophiles- hence the 'tube coloration' of Elizabeth’s post.

Thus the tubes/transistor debate, ad nauseum.

The other part of the coloration issue relates to the Voltage and Power Paradigms, the link to which I dropped in on my first post in this thread.

If you mix equipment from the two camps, you get a tonal aberration. This is the amplifier/speaker matching conversation that we also see a lot.

Fla,
The Polish review is the best description and accurate review of the Takatsui 300b.That group just nailed it.
Regards,

When people mention coloration...what exactly are we talking about? A certain tone or house sound of component?

Up to a certain point I agree with Elizabeth most tube amps I have heard have more colouration the most SS amps. However there are some brands that do make good tube amps. Nagra, Octave and KR audio among others.

But a while a friend and me compared a Prima Luna one/two with a Sugden A21. IMHO, the Sugden was cleary the better amp. Far less colouration, my friend bought the Prima Luna.

Thanks Charles & Gsm, the Polish review particularly piqued my interest... what a rave! Love to try 'em...

F1a. . . as Charles1dad said, the Sophia Royal Princess 300b are excellent; and the people from Sophia Electric are great to deal with. . . they are local to DC where I live. I was very happy with the way that they sounded and agreed with the Positive-Feedback review by Jeff Day. However. . . the Takatsuki are simply better in every way. They are also 50% more expensive (even when sourced directly from Japan); and I doubt that you will find them discounted or used. And there are now several reviews that accurately describe their sound - HiFidelity of Poland (reprinted in 6Moons), Dagogo, and parttimeaudiophile. Both tubes are beautifully packaged. Both sound great. The Takastukis are simply better.

Hi Ngjockey,
No peer pressure here,just people expressing personal experiences. Liz`s statement about 'tube coloration'
is fine, just recognize that solid state has its own colorations also.
In fact name any audio component thay lacks coloration, there is`nt one.
Regards,

Up to this point...it seems MOST agree that:
-speaker/amp synergy is very important
-amp change WILL make difference

the reason i started this post is because I personally have only owned one amp. The Citation. I have never compared other amps A/B and Houston does not have many
options in hifi stores.
I understand tubes vs ss is all relative to system components. One not BETTER than other.

We are now into 'spacetime'. Can Quantum Mechanics be far behind. In quantun mechanics, an amp can be good, bad, bright, dull, have a wide sound stage, narrow sound stage, low noise, high noise, even be in everyone's system, all at the same time!! That would mean everyone is correct, no matter what they say or when or where they say it. And just think, all this just to listen to someone like Ms Krall on an LP playing thru a tube amp!!!
Cheers

In my case, expensive speaker(Caravelles 4500.00) with less expensive amp(Jolida 102-B 450.00) sounded MUCH better, than Expensive Amp(Conrad Johnson MF-2500-A 3600.00?) less expensive speaker (Paradigm Studio 100 v2(1800.00?) Having said that the combo of expensive amp CJ MF-2500-A and expensive speakers Caravelles sounded heavenly! Wish I still had that amp,,,,will someone please send me one! I will pay you back when I get a full time job!!!Thank you in advance

Charles1dad:

I have no axe to grind on either side of this argument. Who am I to say what someone else should prefer? Just appreciate someone standing against peer pressure.

The point I eluded to was that the ears hear but the brain interprets. It's a filter and it's called psyco-acoustics. For example, if a vocal frequency range is diminished in comparison to instruments, that can just as easily have the illusion of more distance or depth. For stereo, psyco-acoustics are fundamental. Nothing to do with tubes versus transistors intrisically.

In the projects I've done, like comparing Bessel to L-R filters, it's much more of a trick to disassociate the interpretation to identify an actual distortion or frequency response or whatever. Still not good at it.

Apologies for getting off track.

Tubegroover:
"Rok2id, I wish things were as simple as you seem to wish or believe them to be, thanks for keeping it real :)"

Be careful what you wish for. Things are really dull on my side of the fence. Nothing to upgrade to, keeping the same wire forever, no beautiful tubes to watch at night, staring at lo-fi components and wondering when they will finally fail so I can buy something new. And worst of all, no personal involvement in playing the music. You guys have your ritual to play LPs. I just push a button insert the CD and sit down and listen, absolutely no sense of accomplishment in that. No, you true believers are having all the fun.
I can only take some solace from the music. If it weren't for the music, I just couldn't go on. :)

welcome back, have not seen you in a while.
Cheers

The folks who love tube amps just like the colorations..

This is incorrect. The folks that love tube amps have discovered that they enjoy a larger soundstage, greater detail and don't like the coloration known as brightness.

Tubes can be guilty of richness (coloration) due to 2nd ordered harmonics, but it is a matter of design (not the fact that it is a tube amp) that controls whether or not this will manifest (for example our amps lack this harmonic entirely due to their fully differential design). OTHO transistors exhibit odd-ordered harmonics that tubes don't; due to the way our ears perceive sound this comes off as brightness even if the odd ordered harmonic content is barely measurable.

Additionally, modern day tubes need not be expensive. Our M-60, which is very popular with Merlins, is about a little over $350 to replace the output tubes in both channels.

What we learned here is that both tubes and transistors exhibit colorations. With tubes they are easier to control.

No doubt tube amp maintenance and expense is a fact that tube amp owners must deal with.

Taking special care of anything requires some special love.

I really like my ARC tube pre-amp, which was my initial experiment with tube amplification. A fantastic piece of gear! Probably about as low maintenance as any piece of high performance tube amp gear. But frankly, I may still replace it someday or relegate it to less frequent use in my second system if I end having to replace tubes too often.

I've had it about 3 years now and am on my third set of tubes, though I have learned since that only the main tube in the phono section requires an extra costly tube tested for low noise. I cannot stand noise when I listen! WHen I hear it with certain tubes, my love of tube sound heads south.

Hi Fla,
Like Gsm I`ve heard both in my amp. The Sophia RP is excellent and top tier,the Takatsuki is a step beyond that level.It`s outstanding.
Regards,

I'm with Phaelon: everything affects everything, and discussion of whether this amp or that amp is better or worse is pretty much lacking context when not discussed in connection with the rest of the system.

And this is coming from someone who is extremely happy with his current pre and power amps.

Jdoris:
"Historic moment: the first time Rok has said *any* equipment change is audible! :)"

Not so fast my friend. I will admit that my current POLKs sound better than my previous POLKS. :)

Ngjockey,
When you purchase your audio components do you choose by how they sound or how you 'think' they sound?Who are the Kool Aid drinkers? why is liz`s viewpoint any better or worse just because she prefers SS amps,it`s simply an individual choice.I`d never say tubes are better for everyone, they just are for me so far.
Regards.

Congratulations Elizabeth. Don't drink the Kool Aid. It's not what we hear, it's what we think we hear. Often, cause and effect are not as direct as we assume.

Tubes, semiconductors or IC It's all matter of design, but you can't wear size 12 shoes when your feet have size 8.

Hi Liz,
Maybe you had a bad encounter with a tube power amp I don`t know. I can tell in 20 plus years of using various tube amps they are simple and trouble free.

We all accept that the best amp choice depends on your speakers.Liz, in my experience tube amps have been more realistic and life-like then any SS amp I`ve heard in all these years.I understand your experiences are different from mine.

My current amp is the simplest,trouble free,reliable and by far the best sounding I`ve ever owned.IMO SS amps with odd and upper order distortion is more obviously 'colored' and wrong sounding than many tube amps that admittedly will have more even order distortion. YMMV is definitely true.
Regards,

I'd trade my beloved tube pre to a SS before I'd ever trade my tube amp. However, it's nice to have both.

I’m no physicist - just a Science Channel junkie; but it seems that modern physicists no longer talk about space and time as separate entities. That’s because they found that space and time are so codependent that the singe word spacetime is more useful. I’m beginning to think that it’s time for audiophiles to do the same thing with speakers and amplifiers. Like space and time, they are so codependent that to consider them separately serves very little purpose. Just a thought.

Gsm18439, as an aside... how do you like your Takatsuki 300Bs?? How do they compare to your previous Sophias?

Amps make a huge difference!! Compare systems with amps to those without, the difference is night and day!!

Historic moment: the first time Rok has said *any* equipment change is audible! :)

In the last 20 years, only encounter with "fireworks" was with a SS amplifier. Never with a tube amplifier.

I am no expert but I have heard a significant difference in sound tonality, etc...whether it be when trying a different amp, a different preamp, or a different source when using the same speakers. And then, when trying different speakers with these same components...again a significant difference in sound again...and on and on.....IMHO any component in the chain can make a significant difference (to some degree) in sound.

Elizabeth I would venture that you never heard a great tube amp or maybe you have never owned one, just a guess. So far as colorations with a tube amp wouldn't you also acknowledge that tube pre-amps also can add their own flavor? It seems your fears may lie with thermionic meltdown maybe? I'm sure a concern with some designs but certainly all of them. I've owned 5 tube amplifiers over the years and never have had a major issue with any of them, biasing and replacing tubes is all.

Amp speaker interface is crucial. Source component and recording is where it logically starts and will determine the potential of everything downstream at least in my experience but amps can make a significant difference in the system whether tube or ss.

Rok2id, I wish things were as simple as you seem to wish or believe them to be, thanks for keeping it real :)

"The folks who love tube amps just like the colorations..
There i said it."

Feeling brave are we??