High End System Building. How important is the matching, cabling and room? Thoughts ?

@mahgister you never called anyone idiots and I appreciate your discussion on my thread. I wasn’t talking about you.  You always have been respectful on all my posts. Thanks. You make great points. is this

@maghister I wasn’t talking about you my friend you have real discussions on how you feel about your ideas.  You are always respectful.  You do make a lot of valid points. 

Exactly right in my book ...

There is a  false marketing tactic on the rise from the dealers these days. Dealer sez, "Hey, unsatisfied/disgruntled audiophile, I'll take the guesswork out of everything for ya. I will create the synergy of components for ya. You go plop it down in your room and magic just starts to flow like the Niagra. Just remember, that's the greatest perk of going to the knowledgeable dealer!!"

Really?? Let us explore that lie for a minute...How the flip did he create that "synergy" for ya again?? He put together a mix of components for a specific "synergy" that worked in his room! You take that synergistic wonder and plop it down in your room and it sounds nothing like what he heard in his room. His tastes are very different from yours. So ...even if he genuinely tried to build a synergistic rig for you, it will be way off in your room for your ears. 

Most often, his "synergistic build" is a list of sht that he either finds very hard to move (rarely sells) or some other sweet saucy deal he's got going with specific vendors. It is just business most of the time. Even if he forgot about maximizing his wallet for a minute and made a genuine effort to build a rig for you, he will be way off (in execution).

 

I never called anyone idiots because of cables by the way ...

 But must i said the opposite of truth because most of us cannot afford a dedicated room ? then cannot understand the acoustic impact... And anyway a dedicated room is not even enough to understand acoustics impact... It takes me hundred of experiments 2 years with one year full time ...

I cannot either no more...I sold my past big house and the room ... But i LEARNED something ...

My actual acoustic room is an acoustic corner in my basement with no real wall separation .. I composed with it ...

By the way i never said that cables dont matter ...

but i said that cables comes way after the three main working embeddings controls :

acoustical first, and second almost ex aequo in importance : electrical noise flooor of all components and of the room as well as of the house... Mechanical controls over vibrations AND resonance especially of speakers ...

Put cables importance in fourth rank ...Perhaps fifth rank only if i count the necessary modifications over many speakers and many headphones which are hugely more impactful than most cabler changing ...( headphone shell mods and speakers porthole redesign and wave guide redesign etc ) ....

How many people modify their "precious" highly costly gear ? Not many because it will loose all value , then they MUST think falsely that their gear is "perfect"... It is not perfect half of the time sorry for the news... Most people dont have mile lavigne high tech costlier system in a completely designed room for them ...Most own under 20,000 bucks systems ...I spoke for the crowd here not for TOP of the world design in TOP acoustic room, my rules dont apply for 500,000 bucks system where a cable can matter more than in my system level , but even with a TOP system Acoustic beat cables with no comparison at all ...... ...Nobody modify a 6,000 headphone or a 10,000 bucks speakers anyway ... I will not do it myself even if i guess many of this design could be improved by mods ..

Then cables came at the fifth rank of importance in the scale of the impactful levels of importance...This i repeat does not means that cables matter not , but too much emphasis is put on cables by audio threads ... This is ignorance sorry ...

You cannot solve any acoustical, most electrical noise floor problems and no mechanical problems with a change of low cost cables for higher cost one ... Saying that is inducing beginners is the wrong road ...

But for someone who doesn’t know me talking.a bunch of babble calling the rest of us idiots because we believe in cabling and certain gear can say whatever they want but in my opinion can kick rocks.

@jjss49 sometimes you get the right speaker that fits the crap room. Lol 😂 if you can demo before you buy. That’s the best way.  But there are ways to get there without the perfect room 

@jastralfu I I have a crap room but I have great sound that fits my tastes.  Try to demo in home if you move from a component or even a cable.  That’s my advice. I been blessed to have long demos of high end stuff along my journey. Some dealers are good at letting you try stuff.  That’s why I let people try stuff. Hell I want them happy and enjoying their music. 

@jastralfu this is exactly what I’m talking about I own a condo. Can’t change the room.  My system can never be dead center. My speakers are 7-8 feet apart max. Vaulted ceilings. Hardwood floor window to the left. I put a nice carpet down to limit some things. I don’t use silver cabling cause it tends to be pingy with my tweeter. When I use really good copper cabling the ring radiator tweeter decay is airy like vapor and the decay is perfect.  We all have our systems. We know what works. Do I have an expensive system and cabling yes.  But once I got my speakers I got to demo everything else before I purchased it. I literally have a super dac that held its own vs. dcs, Weiss, wadax, msb, lampizator etc. my amp is a cool running class A infigo amp. My speakers are gato the guy was a lead designer for the more expensive gamut speakers.  I literally was the ear for our cabling after all my years of trying multiple brands over and over. We all have different journeys , rooms, budgets and beliefs. I will not judge your system or your journey.  To each his own just enjoy the music. I’m just not gonna think that I’m so smart and that everybody is suckers because they choose to spend their money on whatever they believe in. Most of us are pretty successful in whatever we did in life and we didn’t get here by being gullible or dumb.  Even OZ didn’t have all the answers. But somehow a random guy on the internet has the key to audio life. lol 😂 

I don’t think anyone here has stated that anything matters more than the room.  What do you do when you can’t do anything about the room or very little or there are things you can do nothing about?  Getting another room is likely not a solution for most and a great system in a garbage room does not make it a garbage system.  Suggesting headphones is not helpful either, although it might be well intended. What do folks do when they can’t address the room correctly?  That was the question I thought was being asked here.

@mahgister as far as cabling is concerned. Pure silver works in your system. I have a ring radiator tweeter in my speaker. Pure silver using that tweeter in my experience doesn’t work well. Every little thing matters. In a folding tweeter silver works better. In a soft dome tweeter. Silver is even better. My tweeter reacts better with the best copper you can get your hands on. I have really studied my equipment and speaker choice to truly understand what my personal tastes for my signature sound for my music and system.one thing I have learned is that there are a lot of guys that think they are the smartest in the bunch.  They equate expensive cables as snake oil etc.  I literally allow people to try before they buy in most cases because I want them to be happy. We have had folks with cables way more expensive than ours demo them. Keep them and sell the other ones. I allow demos because as an audiophile I hate when I bought cable that didn’t work or a component that didn’t work and I was stuck with it. I do that based on my consumer experiences.  Anyone that wants to try them can hit me up. No pressure. But for someone who doesn’t know me talking.a bunch of babble calling the rest of us idiots because we believe in cabling and certain gear can say whatever they want but in my opinion can kick rocks. 

There is a  false marketing tactic on the rise from the dealers these days. Dealer sez, "Hey, unsatisfied/disgruntled audiophile, I'll take the guesswork out of everything for ya. I will create the synergy of components for ya. You go plop it down in your room and magic just starts to flow like the Niagra. Just remember, that's the greatest perk of going to the knowledgeable dealer!!"

Really?? Let us explore that lie for a minute...How the flip did he create that "synergy" for ya again?? He put together a mix of components for a specific "synergy" that worked in his room! You take that synergistic wonder and plop it down in your room and it sounds nothing like what he heard in his room. His tastes are very different from yours. So ...even if he genuinely tried to build a synergistic rig for you, it will be way off in your room for your ears. 

Most often, his "synergistic build" is a list of sht that he either finds very hard to move (rarely sells) or some other sweet saucy deal he's got going with specific vendors. It is just business most of the time. Even if he forgot about maximizing his wallet for a minute and made a genuine effort to build a rig for you, he will be way off (in execution).

the room is paramount, as it couples with the chosen speakers

@jacobsdad2000 now you are talking.  Some people think I’m dissing lesser equipment and that I’m dissing the importance of the room.  I have slowly climbed up the chain through the years.  I have seen cheaper systems with proper cabling and tweaks  that are matched correctly mollywop more expensive systems. Synergy is really where it all starts. But I have found that when you do have properly matched high end systems with proper cabling in the right room  that also have synergy it is truly sublime. Nothing against anyone’s set up but that’s my personal experience.  I have had access to a lot of great gear and I have learned how to get  really good performance out of said gear. 

erik -squires is absolutely right ...

Nothing will replace room acoustic power of transformation for the worst or the better ...

No wave guide or near listening field will cancel room acoustics power potential , i do the two i am in near listening field and i redesign my active speakers tweeter wave guide and porthole by the way ...😊

Knowing the speed of sound and room dimensions it is preposterous to claim that reflected waves will be discounted because of near field listening in a small room ...

I hear modifications in my small room even through nearfield listening ...And my directed wave guide tweeter are at 3 feet or few inches less from my ear ...

Acoustic passive treatment and active controls of the room are the most important factor ...

After that electrical noise floor of all components and of the room and of the house together ...

Vibrations controls of the speakers and resonance control in third...

Cables come way after that ...( save if your cable are horrible and even with horrible cable , it is certainly and probably fouth factors so much impactful are the others )

i know for a fact that most people had never go through extensive room acoustic modifications than they think acoustics controls is a cherry on their gear choice cake ...

Completely false...

The gear choices matter less than the acoustics.... The only exception would be comparing my low cost active speakers, so good they are modified with a Revel or top Tannoy speakers...Here the extreme choice between low cost and higher cost speakers matter AS MUCH as the room controls... But only in this case , for most people average speakers mid-fi choices , even upgrading the speakers will be in many case way more astounding than redesigning the room acoustic...But most people cannot even had a dedicated room , this is why they are forgetful of the acoustic huge impact , they never experie4nced it anyway ...

Room acoustic for me is way more than buying few panels by the way ...

Anyway i know that most dont know and will never know...A dedicated room cost too much, even me now i am in a smaller one i could no more design at the le4vel of my past one ...Near listening field ask for room acoustic but not at the level far listening field asked for to be optimal for sure ...

Because i could not imagine it BEFORE doing my many years room experiments with resonators and others devices i understand why most people can think that other factors matter more ...But truth must be told...

Acoustics rule everything in audio...Not the reverse so important it could be ...And acoustics concepts exceed room acoustic design ... I modified my porthole design with acoustics concepts ...

Nothing is as important in getting to done as the room and it’s treatment. You can go round and round with speakers, and cables but when you get the room sorted, you are on the express train to done.

As for cables, after a lot of playing and listening I’ve settled on pure silver interconnects and Mogami speaker cables. Everything else I’ve heard has been subtractive.

Right. There are only two places where matching is important, cartridge to tonearm and amp to speakers. Cables, depending on their purpose, are either good (sound like nothing) or bad (sound like something). There is nothing in between. 

If you have a bad room you have a bad system and the solutions are to use headphones or find another room. 

A dealer's job is to make money. Survival is always #1 with humans. I know only one dealer who could care less. His shop is a retirement gig and he is all set in terms of finances. Not that other dealers are not OK to deal with but I have never experienced a dealer telling anyone to go to another dealer to buy the competition because it is better. I worked in that system for 5 years from a big box store to the highest end store in the neighborhood. The only difference was the degree of sophistication. 

All of it is important. Synergy between components in the system, this is achieved through correct matching of components, cables and most importantly the room. Treatments and acoustics are the biggest factor, far and above cables, cables will not make up for a poorly setup room. If you live in a phone booth buy some good IE Monitors and a new iPhone. 

Happy New Year and I hope your resolution is to stop these ignorant trolling comments and posts.

Everyone system building is work. We all have different budgets , preferences, rooms. Some like cables some don’t believe in them. Some listen to voices where 80% of my listening is jazz instrumentals.  Hard bop.  Some are tube guys. Some like solid state.  I like super low noise floors. Some equipment can’t achieve that. I like air and space with wide soundstages. I have figured out my system in my room. Getting the right cabling to make the music flow. My equipment has zero noise and the notes come from a complete silent background. There is air and space between the notes. I will be taking my entire system to the Lone Star Audiofest in Dallas Texas in June. First week. If you are in the area stop by and check it out out. Infigo will also be at the Dallas Audio Show. March 15-17 in Dallas, Texas. The newest industry show. We will be showing with Reference Stenhiems in one of the Ball rooms. It will be fun. 

@deep_333 man I have seen your comments on most of my posts. Typically they include personal shots. I don’t do that to you. We are having real,conversations on this. If you wanna contribute I have no issue. Your posts after the initial comments were great. Let’s keep it professional is all I’m saying. Happy listening 

Perhaps some here should make a New Year's resolution to be a bit less abrasive.

he just likes to come on anything I post with negativity. That’s just who he is unfortunately 

Negativity?...I gave you compliments on this one. I referred to you as the "grand matchmaker" (of components)...Here's more to cheer you up...the sweet prince of synergy...the grand druid of cables... Valiant dispeller of veiled sound..... etc..😂 

@mihorn im good once I get it dialed in a little I’m ready to roll. I’m pretty happy all I got to do is position my speakers have my guy integrate the subs when I get my regular gear back and I’m happy. Very happy. Enjoy your system. Looks cozy 

calvinj OP

@mihorn nice sound I can hear it some through your clip. I love the system I have. Listening preferences play a part as well. 

I got it. I was just saying, for your room, you could put a plug (sound-wave guide) on speaker drivers to change the direction of sounds easily. I won't bother you now. Alex/WTA

@mihorn nice sound I can hear it some through your clip. I love the system I have. I listen to a lot of instrumental jazz with a lot of dynamics. My system has to have air and space. Listening preferences play a part as well. 

calvinj OP

@mihorn. The system you have should also,have the sound signature you want as well. Equipment with a warmer sound signature ain’t gonna work for me regardless of set up. I like a small amount of warmth and a bit more detail. 

I have the sound signature I want from my system. I don't think there is any system better warm sound with details than mine. Alex/WTA

Compare to the original music

@mihorn some people will tell you. You can’t get optimal sound because your room is bad. Speaker placement along with matching equipment cabling etc can get you where you need to be. Each of our rooms and set ups are different. Do what works for you. 

@mihorn. The system you have should also,have the sound signature you want as well. Equipment with a warmer sound signature ain’t gonna work for me regardless of set up. I like a small amount of warmth and a bit more detail. Some equipment just can’t give you the detail and low noise floor you make seek. Yes some expensive equipment isn’t worth it but really properly matched good equipment in a non optimal room can still give you the sound you seek. You put in the work matching stuff properly for your room and you will reap the benefits. All of it matters. I have a really great source and an amp that throws a great soundstage and has a low noise floor. The instruments have air and space. Then I have cables that are not a bottle neck and allows the music to flow uninterrupted and doesn’t change the sound signature. I have been able to achieve the sound in my room even though the room is sub optimal. 

@mihorn i will have my set up guy come when I get my regular system back. He was really good at set up. Even in difficult rooms. He used to travel the country doing it for rel,customers. 

deep_333 i don’t know what you read but that’s not how I interpreted his last post. Room matters a lot, if you can’t fix the room you have to work with what you have. Getting components that play well together would probably sound better in a suboptimal room than components that don’t. If you have a room with a lot of hard surfaces buying components that are on the warm side might be better than something neutral or revealing.

@jastralfu , When a guy has a suboptimal room, his focus should be to get components that play well in a suboptimal room.

For example, there are some fairly advanced speaker designs that play better in a crap room...beam forming, well controlled vertical dispersion, directivity, etc, Perlisten is one name that comes to mind.

Subwoofers, for example, are some of the best/surgical "room treatment" devices (similar to tuned resonators) one can deploy. By placing even a couple high waf/non-intrusive micro subs like the KEF KC62, hidden away, a guy can completely nullify some awful room modes he may otherwise never be able to get rid off. If instead, he put a "full range" magico in there and called it a day! (no subs), all he’ll hear is some lumpalicious crap.

For example, an amp like Yamaha’s R-N2000A offers some light/non-heavy handed rsc (reflective sound control) filters if you so choose to deploy it, defeat it, match your speakers, etc,

A guy can have very audiophile gear, but, the choice of such gear would be very different for a sht room. The "dealer" would rarely tell you that...he may be all about "matching" expensive crap with other expensive crap and constantly capitalizing on the poor dude’s constant disgruntlement.

The focus should be on matching/marrying things to the room. Of course, plenty more purist audiophile options (to explore different flavors) open up for a good room...not so much for a crap room.

calvinj OP

@mihorn  i have a difficult room. High ceilings. My speakers can only be so far apart. I have a window to the left. 

That's why the sound must sent to the listener rather than send to walls, floor and the ceiling. **80% left side of my room is the glass doors.  Alewx/WTA

@jastralfu im going to have a former rel rep to come out and set the subs up in a month.  Im currently demoing an amp and dac the pulium and the esoteric N01 xd while the dealer tries out my Infigo stuff.  When I get it back next month.  Gonna have ten former Rel guy set up the 212se properly. 

@mihorn I agree the room matters a great deal and I don't mean for this discussion to devolve into whether or not it does, just that some folks can't do a lot about fixing it.  The OP is one of those who cannot.  

@calvinj My room is not optimal either, it is on the small side, maybe 12x9, but I've been able to apply treatments that have helped tremendously.  I plan on doing more in the near future but it's pretty good at the moment and measures reasonably well.  I recently added two subs that seem to have lessened the bass nodes I was getting in the room.

@mihorn  @jastralfu i have a difficult room. High ceilings. My speakers can only be so far apart. I have a window to the left. I have a door the prevents my speakers from being wider. The whole reason I made this post. A lot of us don’t have optimal rooms.

The room acoustic matters a lot because the speaker cone is angled and sending sounds to walls rather than to the listener. Change the direction of sounds to the listener (easy to do). Then the room acoustic doesn't matter much. Alex/WTA

my listening room isn’t optimal so I have done a lot of work with everything else to get a great sound that I like. I can’t do much about my room.

@calvinj i figured you were saying something like that.  Fortunately, I’ve been able to get my room sorted for the most part.  Those who can’t have to use different methods to try to achieve reasonable sound.

@jastralfu he just likes to come on anything I post with negativity. That’s just who he is unfortunately 

@jastralfu my listening room isn’t optimal so I have done a lot of work with everything else to get a great sound that I like. I can’t do much about my room.  

@deep_333 i don’t know what you read but that’s not how I interpreted his last post.  Room matters a lot, if you can’t fix the room you have to work with what you have.  Getting components that play well together would probably sound better in a suboptimal room than components that don’t.  If you have a room with a lot of hard surfaces buying components that are on the warm side might be better than something neutral or revealing.

@erik_squires but some can’t do anything about the room. You can still have great sound to me. You have to get equipment matching and cabling to help you in my opinion. But if you can fix the room. That helps a lot.

Right...the guy with the crappy room should keep buying cables to try and fix his disgruntlement and the crap he hears ( Hopefully, he will keep buying cables from you). It’s all the cable’s fault.

It is all equipment matching faults too, apparently... (Hopefully, he will also keep buying equipment from you that’s more & more & more "matching"). Also, the more & more & more expensive it gets, more & more & more synergistic matching magic occurs, right? O’ grand matchmaker?

@erik_squires but some can’t do anything about the room. You can still have great sound to me. You have to get equipment matching and cabling to help you in my opinion.  But if you can fix the room. That helps a lot. 

Nothing is as important in getting to done as the room and it's treatment.  You can go round and round with speakers, and cables but when you get the room sorted, you are on the express train to done.

As for cables, after a lot of playing and listening I've settled on pure silver interconnects and Mogami speaker cables.  Everything else I've heard has been subtractive.