So we know the higher end preamps don’t include dacs and phono stages. Highly desirable noise free devices. I hear wonderful things about these preamps, Luxman, Accuphase, Audio Research, etc.
In a blind test no preamp can improve upon no preamp.
That one needs to be etched in stone, as another great audio saying. Just like "it all starts at the source, get that right and your almost there" (Ivor Tiefenbrun Linn Sondek)
There isn't a preamp that's built into a dac that's even close to a good high-end preamp.
That's because they're far more transparent and dynamic, because there is no preamp, and all the volume controlling is done in the digital domain, just have to watch out for "bit stripping" using it at or above 75%.
There isn't a preamp that's built into a dac that's even close to a good high-end preamp. I have a SIM audio p8 and I haven't heard any preamp built into a dac that comes close. But then how can you compare the preamp inside the dac to a $15,000 preamp, that's a pretty unfair comparison.
In my experience, a good preamp took my system to the next level (adding EAR 868L to Pass xa30.8). The vibrancy that it brought to the music the first time I turned it on I won’t soon forget. I had been running DAC direct but correctly realized something was missing.
How about the Benchmark (LA4)? I didn’t see it on anyone’s list above, but I have heard a few good things about it personally. Just asking for opinions, I have no horse in this race. — Jim
There are always compromises to all in one designs. For example my DAC has a 30 lb power supply, preamp separated power supply so all in ones don't compete. That is not to say that all in ones cannot sound good. The Vinnie Rossi all in one is a very good sounding unit but it is also a DHT design which is what I prefer.
A really good preamp is one of the most important parts of a system. I can still remember the first time I inserted a really good preamp, Air Tight ATC-1 into my system and being stunned at the transformation.
As others have suggested a good preamp doesn't have to be expensive, but they usually aren't cheap either. Buying used is always a good way to stretch your dollar.
I think there are...the question is related to return on investment.
I have a Moon DAC by Simaudio and they make impressive DACs that have preamp capability including MC/MM phone inputs as well. My preamp is a McIntosh and they have quality DAC and Phono sections.
You can get a quality pre-amp with DAC and phono stages and you can even explore a quality integrated amp. There's a trade off in costs and theirs advantages in simplicity including interconnectors and space requirements.
My comparison was they are not. But not quite the way the question is worded, which is asking if its worth separating the preamp from the DAC, etc. That part is definitely worth it. What I mean is not worth it is preamps in general.
Not because you can't get better sound quality that way. You can. If that's all there is to it then go for it. But, "worth it"? Compared to what? That's where they come up short.
Compared against each other everything seems fine. Compared against a good integrated however suddenly you realize it takes a pretty darn expensive interconnect between them or it just won't cut it no matter how good the preamp. Also both the amp and the preamp need at least as good a power cord as the integrated has for the comparison to work out at all. If you use a shelf, Cones, or whatever, add those in too. It all adds up to where you've spent a pile of money all just trying to get the preamp/amp to keep up with the integrated.
But in terms of worth it to separate the preamp from the DAC and phono stage? Yes, totally. Just like in a high end integrated.
Wise words mitch2. Of course, if one has multiple inputs (beyond your DAC), the decision is easier. I actually only have two digital inputs; ROON and my TV, both into my DAC. Yet, to me, the preamp is indeed worth it.
In each setting, the overall sound and especially soundstage was improved by inserting a preamp.
My experience exactly after trying multiple types of passive volume controls and DAC direct to amp approaches. I am using a unity-gain buffer, so no gain like a traditional preamp but active buffering of the signal, which seems to preserve the tone and dynamics that I find missing with passives and DAC direct approaches. To answer the OP, "high end" preamps presumably handle the signal better than lower cost approaches (i.e., better design, better power supply, less shortcuts, better parts) but more dollars don't always equal good sound so to your question of "High end stereo preamps? Worth it?" my answer is, having a preamp or buffer is better than having none, but to the value - it depends on the preamp.
I have limited owning experience but did a lot of research on preamps. The Quicksilver Line Stage, non-remote, version, is very simple, point to point wired, very good customer service, and has a very good reputation with customers. The company does not send units out to reviewers and is made in California. It's $1500 new but can be had for close to $900, used. That is, it seems to me, an extraordinary value in audio.
I tried direct with DAC to amps, using several DAC's touted as having good preamp volume control: PS Audio DS with bridge, Auralic G2 and now my Mola Mola Tambaqui. In each setting, the overall sound and especially soundstage was improved by inserting a preamp. First the PS Audio BHK Pre, then moving on to the Audionet Pre 1 G3, and finally my nirvana, the Audionet Pre G2. My measurement and science buddy points out that a preamp should not be able to add anything beneficial, just take things away. My ears tell me differently! I wonder of many people that recommend direct to amp have heard the difference a good preamp can make. And +1 to soix3 on synergy. While the Audionet Pre made a difference, mating it with the Audionet amps was amazing. So while looking for that quality preamp, and many good mentioned here, keep your eye on the same company's amps...as in one day 'I will add those also'!
Yes, but as always it all depends on what sound characteristics you’re looking for. There’s also VAC, VTL, LTA, Shindo, Pass Labs, Rogue, Backert, Allnic, Ayre, Atmasphere, Conrad Johnson, Bryston, etc. that are also excellent. Again, just depends on your personal tastes and system synergy.
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