Good info about the anti-mode, willemj.
I've heard that it's not quite transparent enough for some people when used over the entire system, but works well on just the sub signal. Sounds like that set up worked for you.
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I added a sub (B&W PV1d) to my Quad 2805 speakers, and it did not change the sound of the main speakers, but just added to it. In my case the larger Quad 2905 were simply too large from an aesthetic point of view and adding the sub turned out to be a good alternative. Without the Antimode 8033 integration was less than perfect, with quite a bit of boom, even in a large room. With the Antimode, it is much better, even if I have decided a second sub should improve matters even more, and add extra power. My (quite inefficient) Quads are now driven by a 2x140 watt Quad 606-2 amplifier (earlier I had a 2x45 watt Quad 303 and that was not quite enough). The extra 400 watts from the sub gave even more power for a cleaner sound, but I can use yet more for dynamic music like symphonic music.
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Great responses, thanks!
snapsc,
I like my Conrad Johnson tube preamp/amp too much to switch to solid state. Every time I've tried SS I've run back to tubes. Learned my lesson. (I believe the crossover I'm going to use will pass along the character of my pre-amp ok).
Jon,
Your experienced input is valuable.
The ability of my CJ preamp to drive the signal over long runs of interconnect are a bit questionable. That's one way adding the JL CR-1 crossover helps, which will drive things no problem.
My listening room was designed with the help of a acoustician, so it has treatment, trapping, sort of "built in." It's a great sounding room (and a wide opening to one side into the hall seems to stop a lot of bass room-node wave build up - the big Thiel 3.7s for instance sound perfectly even in the room). I won't be adding any more room treatments.
I've considered going with a good mic and computer software to read the room, but I'm trying to make this as user friendly as possible. So I'd first probably go to items like my Velodyne SMS or an Anti-Node, to dsp the subwoofers.
I'm still curious if subwoofers can actually be added in a way that doesn't alter the general tonal character of the main speakers. After all, adding frequencies anywhere does tend to have a psycho-acoustical effect in how we perceive the sound. As mentioned, my bigger Thiel 3.7s go lower than the 2.7s, and preserve the Thiel sonic character I'm looking for. Except they are aesthetically larger than I want in the room.
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I've had several subs and have quite a bit of experience with integrating them. There is definitely something to the claim that having multiple sets of interconnects can mess up the sound. It isn't always a problem but I've found that my benchmark dacs can't drive both the amplifier and a sub. The bass quality is surprisingly degraded. On the other hand, my Bryston pre can drive both amp and sub with no problem with no noticeable change in quality.
I hate to say it but after having my systems in 5 different houses the best way to integrate a sub is to have your system in a large room in a house that has fairly lightweight construction. I've had my system in multiple basements, smallish rooms in brick houses, medium rooms in frame houses, smallish plaster rooms in frame houses, and now in large rooms in a frame house. I've also bought digital equalizers, made over 2 dozen bass traps and gone through extensive measurements with a measurement mic, real-time analyzer and various tone generators and discs.
If I were you I'd buy the behringer ultra-curve and measurement mic (or something similar). Get a tone generator. This will let you do a direct comparison of the signal being fed to the system vs the actual volume that is present at the microphone. If you do this it will give you a sense of proportion that I don't think you'll get any other way. If you have a 12db peak at 60hz and a 12db null at 45 this will let you hear it and know what you're hearing. You'll be able to completely squash the peak, although you'll probably be a little surprised at how deep of a cut you have to make to actually get rid of the bloat.
Once you quantify what you're hearing you will be able to decide what you want to do about it. You can make huge cuts to completely get rid of the peaks but in my opinion this won't sound right. It seems to kill transients. You can make a bunch of bass traps and that can help with the peaks without doing as much harm as huge eq cuts but it's either very expensive or a lot of work to get enough of them to really make a big difference. In my experience it's impossible to completely fix a bad room, although the problems can definitely be reduced. I haven't tried the processors that do processing in the time domain as well as frequency and I haven't tried making any sort of resonator. I'd like to try it someday just to see how it works. Sadly, I've got systems in really good rooms now and I don't have troublesome resonances that are bothering me. |
Here are a couple other options to try with buy and return options being offered. A parasound halo preamp with hi pass and low pass output options so you can dial in the best hi pass option to the mains with your ears. And or a crown xls drivecore amp with built in hi pass (many setting options) for your mains. If you try and like, then keep. If not, return. I'm pretty sure you will prefer the sound using a hi pass option. Also, if you haven't, sometimes just moving or angling the sub a few inches makes a big difference.
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I have a REL S5 and had a similar problem with my PSB T3'3s. It was my T3's tuning though and not the REL. My T3's have 3 ports in the rear and with all 3 ports open the Bass was deeper but looser, and I lose a gorgeous mid-range. With bottom 2 ports covered, Bass tightens up but doesn't extend quite as low, and the mids and highs just bloom.
Good luck because when you find the right mix having a great sub to lay that foundation for music and movies just right, makes for an unbelievable sense of space that brings you into the music or the movie into your room.
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Little update:
I managed to get sound happening to the subs via my pre-amp outputs (turned out to be stupid user error. I had to crank the output level of the subs far more than I imagined vs using the high level inputs).
Some listening yielded these results so far: Dynamics didn't seem obviously restrained as with using the line level inputs. However, there was still a real change to the tone, darkening (though also expanding of soundstage). I love, love the tone of the Thiels and don't want that messed with. I tried using only one sub and that seemed to split the difference - gave some of the recognizable Thiel tone back, plus some of the expansiveness of the sub. Though back and forth between one sub and no sub had me thinking it was hard to decide which I liked. The "best" tone seemed without a sub.
So I'm still trying. If I can get the good things I hear from adding the sub (added richness, bass depth, soundstaging) along with keeping the general character I love about the Thiels, that would be great.
Next step is to try the hook up most recommended for subwoofers: using a crossover to split the signal to mains and subs. My JL Subs have a crossover, but because they are in a different room down the hall from my pre-amp/amp, that cabling is a nightmare. I'll have to buy some additional 30 foot interconnects to test that out.
My plan has been, ultimately, to use a high quality analog outboard crossover. Having spent a bundle recently on a great turntable (Transrotor Fat Bob) the last thing I feel like doing is digitizing everything with a digital crossover.
Research showed that the crossover that fit my criteria best is JL Audio's CR-1. It is very highly lauded for it's transparency and combination of flexibility and intuitive controls for seamlessly dialing in subwoofers with mains. But...it's super expensive! It would be over $5,000 Canadian.
As luck would have it, while working late last night I perused Audiogon and spotted a CR-1 that had literally just been listed that night....for $1,800! The best price I've ever seen for a second hand CR-1.
I pressed "buy" as fast as my fingers would move and snatched it up.
Yay Audiogon!
So now I'm waiting on that to arrive.
If I feel I need to further tweak the subwoofers to the room, I'm not averse to the idea of only running the sub signal through some EQ/DSP.
To that end, I actually picked up a second hand Velodyne SMS subwoofer integrator. A litte old in the tooth but may come in handy.
I've also been looking at the DSPeaker Anti-Node.
But...one step at a time.
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gdnrbob,
Thanks. Unfortunately I don't have flexibility with the choice of subwoofers. My 2 channel speakers share the room with my home theater system, which is projection based. I only have a limited area along the front screen wall to place a subwoofer, and they have to be as small as possible, otherwise they interfere with the projected image. The JLs were the only high quality subs with the physical profile that fit my scenario.
The only other place I have for a sub is right behind the listening sofa, a few feet to the left of the listening position. I'd be a bit wary of placing a sub there in terms of possibly localizing any of the sound. Although I may try one of my two JL subs in that position, as placing two subs on a diagonal in a room is supposed to be a promising way of evening out room modes.
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I would call them on Monday and let them know of the problems you have. I bet they will give you an extra day or two to trial. If they don't, send them back and find a pair of Vandersteen subs and xovers.
I guarantee they will work magic with your speakers.
Bob |
yogiboy,
Unfortunately this is the last day I have to evaluate the subs before the return policy expires. So that's why I've been frantic to try and diagnose these problems. JL Audio won't be open today.
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Why not give JL a call? I’m sure they will help! BTW, turn your amps off and see if the sub is producing sound without your mains on! |
Sounds like, and I don't know the e series well, that a switch on the sub is (could be, is there?) set to High-level input mode something on those lines, If I have time, I will look them up online.
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I only have one more day with these things so I have to figure this out fast.
The subs worked when I took a line off the speaker terminals to the high level speaker input of the subs.
But in the following set up, I'm still not getting sound: Speakers still run full range. Subwoofers getting the signal from my pre-amps second outputs to the subwoofers unbalanced RCA inputs.
And...that should be it, right? The subs should be making sound and I the crossover setting, which I haven't changed, should be rolling them off so they blend with the speakers.
Am I missing anything?
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yogiboy,
The ICs are new, just arrived. I doubt both new cables would just happen to be broken.
jzzmusician, I triple checked they were in the right input.
adsell, no slave mode on these subs. Crossover set around 30 Hz.
No mention of reference or variable switch in instructions or on sub.
Not using phase switch.
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I have a pair of the e12s and like them a lot.
I once had the very same problem going from the pre out to the subs. No sound, nothing at all.
I discovered I had connected the IC to the "out" and not the "in."
Dumb mistake, but crawling around on your hands and knees to hook stuff begs for little mistakes to happen.
Bob
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Make sure the sub is not set in Slave Mode, (not sure about the e110, I have F112's) what do you have the crossover set at on the subs? Does it have a reference and variable switch?
? Are you using the phase switch?
How far away are the subs from the mains?
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Are you sure that the IC’s going into the subs are good? Are you sure that they are going to the input and not the output of the sub? If all checks okay then the sub is the culprit! BTW, try using one sub and see if that works! |
I have swapped the outputs and verifed both sets of main outputs on the CJ preamp are working. I also tried L signal from one set of outputs and R signal from the other, to verify the amp sends a signal to both outputs at the same time.
I'm therefore baffled as to why I'm not getting subwoofer levels when I send to the JL subs!
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Yes it should. You can swap the outputs to verify it. Are you sure there is no switch to activate the second output? |
Yeah, I better check that my CJ is actually putting out sound from both sets of main outputs.
The preamp SHOULD be putting out signal from both outputs simultaneously, shouldn't it, so both outputs can be used at the same time? (I don't see why there would be two sets of outputs otherwise).
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Are you sure that you are getting a signal from the second preamp outs? You seem to have everything correct! |
Thanks.
Any diagnosis on why the sound changed via speaker line levels or why I wouldn't be getting sound from the subs when hooked up from the second preamp outs?
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Stick with the speaker level, it will be less of a load on your pre-amps. With tubes this matters.
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