Help... my turntable is alive!
Dear Cleeds, Yes you're quite right. It's unlikely the OPs problems would be compounded by this but it's a possibility. If fact you've inspired me to acquire a spare for my own turntable even though it's not too old. Back when I had a Linn the oldest belt was about 20 years old! Regular updates meant previous ones would be only 2-5 years old but were routinely discarded by the dealer even though they were fine. Thanks for that anyway ;) Bill |
Group, Thanks for all the suggestions. I was playing records last night and again, the noise was gone. I'm now thinking the noise is record specific, or at least some records are a catalyst to the noise occurring. Either way I should point out that the noise is coming from my subwoofers, as I think my main speakers would not produce the noise at any detectable level. So it comes and goes with different records, and I have more work to do in my investigation. Since it doesn't happen on every LP then maybe the problem isn't even with the turntable setup? Lastly I want to say that the noise is very faint and most people would not hear it unless it was pointed out at each occurrence. I'm still trying to get to the bottom of this... will keep you posted. |
moonglum The OP does not need to buy a new belt. The solution is simply to wash it in warm soapy water then rinse & dry and it will be good as new You may be correct, moonglum, but you can't know that for sure unless you've actually examined the belt. Even the best belts do stretch over time and require replacement. That's part of why they sell replacement belts. I usually get more than a decade out of mine and you're correct, the soapy water wash often restores it satisfactorily. But all things wear out over time. |
The "heartbeat" sound is still present, but only after the first few minutes and then going away a few minutes after that. I have tried several different records, but still the same effect.Koestner Have a look at the arm lift and check that there is clearance between the arm lift and arm when the record is playing. I have had examples where the arm lift is slow to go down ( would explain your results ) and/or the arm lift is not level with the record and varies in height across the record, resulting in contact with the arm whilst playing.. |
| Post removed |
"
I could order a new belt, but I don't want to start down the money path until I know I'm at least on the correct path. " Money path??? A turntable belt is a trivial expense compared to the cost of maintaining proper vinyl playback equipment in a Music Reproduction System and all of the gear that supports that playback including alignment tools and record cleaners and sooner or later you are going to need a new belt anyway so why not buy one now and set to rest whether that is the cause of your problems? |
OP here... It seems we are a bit off track. Does it really matter which side of the egg you crack? Upon further examination, it is not a record warp. I am still having the problem even with flat records. My cartridge is not bottoming out. My VTA is OK by sight. The tonearm is horizontal to the record surface, and there is some daylight between the cartridge and the record. My cartridge, Goldring 1042 is just built to come close to the record due to the cantilever being short. The "heartbeat" sound is still present, but only after the first few minutes and then going away a few minutes after that. I have tried several different records, but still the same effect. While I haven't completed all of my investigation, I wanted to keep you up to date on the latest swing from my previous post. |
cleeds you should stop it right here you are upsetting moonglum which makes him glum when that happens he writes something nasty about you and false about VTA and then the moderators have to delete it again and again as they have here. It is wasting everyones time as you have already figured out moonglum has his own definition of VTA that is different than everyone else’s and if you push him he just insists "everyone know’s what I’m talking about." He also has endless analogies about pilots and sealevel none of which make any sense but he will just keep this mindless banter going from the comfortable home of mommy’s basement where you are the only person interfering with his little world of made-up reality so please lets all leave moonglum alone we have probably hurt his self-esteem pretty badly. moonglum you might want to google VTA and then you will find its definition and proper use. |
| Post removed |
moonglum I’ve just been told my earlier post was deleted by a Moderator. Perhaps because you engaged in insult rather than discussing the topic.
VTA - Vertical Tracking Angle - is the angle between the cantilever (measured from the cantilever’s pivot to the stylus contact area) and the record surface. That is simply what it is.
One clear erroneous assumption by you was equating the expression “NEGATIVE VTA” (SETTING) directly with a cartridge rather than a tonearm VTA adjusterVTA refers to the cartridge cantilever, by definition. That’s not an assumption on my part, but the actual meaning of the term. You prefer to ascribe your own definition to the term "VTA" for a purpose that defies reason, except perhaps to conceal your confusion on this topic. |
I’ve just been told my earlier post was deleted by a Moderator. As far as I can recall it was well reasoned and explanatory without abuse or profanity. I’ll show part of it recreated (with updates) as well as I can recall here : I fail to understand the problem you (Cleeds) have with the words “negative & positive” in relation to a tonearm’s VTA setting to the extent that you would accuse me of being “ignorant” or “embarrassed”. If you were a pilot, height/altitude can be expressed as a positive (above sea level) , zero (sea level) and a negative value (below sea level – some airports are a few feet below sea level). Why would you object to people out there applying a similar “convention” to describe the height of a tonearm pivot or arm tube? Also why would you take the reference point "zero" on the Y axis to be associated with a cantilever? I didn't mention cantilevers at all and would challenge you to show me where in this thread? This “convention” was NEVER directly associated with the cartridge. Why are you trying to make out that it is? Cleeds said : “…had the OP initially properly set his VTA, he wouldn't have had his phono cartridge bottom out in the first place.”
You’re the only one alleging that the OP did not “initially, properly set his VTA”. I’m sure the facts will become clear when the OP chooses to reveal them. One clear erroneous assumption by you was equating the expression “NEGATIVE VTA” (SETTING) directly with a cartridge rather than a tonearm VTA adjuster. The context was clear, you ignored it. Message ends. Cleeds, it’s clear we’ll have to agree to disagree on this. "Each to his own". Bill. |
moonglum
I'm not confused at all. There's simply no such thing as "negative VTA." I realize that you are embarrassed for having been exposed for your ignorance, but that's not my problem, kind sir. |
| Post removed |
One of the reasons it's important to understand that there's no such thing as "negative VTA" is that, had the OP initially properly set his VTA, he wouldn't have had his phono cartridge bottom out in the first place. VTA can be set pretty reliably, btw, if you have patience and good tools. There are a few devices that can help set VTA, but this one is my favorite. When you consider the cost many of us have committed to LP playback, the price isn't unreasonable. It's much better than relying on guesswork or estimation. |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
Good suggestion Folkfreak. Indeed, I've often used those terms myself. ;) Of course, since they are synonymous, if we substituted one of these into Cleeds "objection" it would have emerged as, "There's no such thing as a tail-down VTA! That's physically impossible!" (Just to show I can also quote out of context when required ;) Have a good day :) Bill |
Dear Cleeds, I think you are are confusing angular quantification of VTA with *someone's* attempt to indicate the direction of a VTA adjuster on a tone arm. This "positive" or "negative" attitude does not attempt to account for angular displacement just the general attitude of the tone arm post-adjustment. If you can offer a better "convention" that describes it by all means do so and we'll use that instead. ;) We await your deliberations with interest. Bill |
moonglum ... if one considers that the pivot is the primary means of adjusting VTA and that the movement is constrained to the vertical axis, if one assumes that "horizontal"/"neutral" VTA is effectively "zero" on that axis then ...But that's mistaken. VTA is the angle between the cantilever (measured from the cantilever's pivot to the stylus contact area) and the record surface. The ideal VTA in any given setup is a function of the cartridge's design and the cutting head that was used in making the LP. It's actually a critical setup parameter. So to describe it as "zero" under some circumstances simply isn't correct. I can see how the misunderstanding occurs, but that doesn't make it correct. |
Never thought about it before but here's my take on it : if one considers that the pivot is the primary means of adjusting VTA and that the movement is constrained to the vertical axis, if one assumes that "horizontal"/"neutral" VTA is effectively "zero" on that axis then raising the arm is deemed a "positive offset" while lowering the pivot is deemed a "negative offset". It is possible that this is where the expressions have been formed. If viewed in this way there is a logic to each statement even though you may not strictly be able to "Google" the origin of such a "convention"? |
| Post removed |
Dear Cleeds, Positive, Neutral, Negative VTA are popular expressions which have been around for a while. Put simply, it’s easier to type "Negative VTA" rather than "I arranged the tonearm so that the pivot was lower than the stylus" or a similar verbal "fudge". You can call it "physically impossible" if you wish. Whatever floats your boat and makes you feel good. ;^) Regards, |
cleedscleeds, Just a guess this is what moonglum is referring to when he said "negative VTA". https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/vta-high-low-where-you-go Jim |
A new malady....'cart clunk". *L* Wonders never cease.... I find it amusing that all technologies, old and new, seem to exhibit odd 'quirks' that stymie us. TT's tend to be mechanical in nature, 'generally'. I have a CD that has an amusing 'stutter' on a track that makes it 'back up' randomly within one particular track. This track has a similar musical cadence and structure to the oh too familiar 'Cocaine' by Clapton. If left to itself, the song seems to go on Forever.... It does this on Any Player, BTW. No visible defect. It's fun to put it on at a party that's been ongoing for awhile, and see if anyone notices that the same song has been playing 'the extended version'... ;) |
The cartridge comes very, very close to the record when playing and a sharp warp could be the "bottoming out" heartbeat noise. Certainly I need to inspect this issue for more evidence.Looks like the suspension on your cartridge may have sagged over time, it shouldn't be that close to the record. You might want to check this out. |
Well, thank you all for those excellent thoughts. 1. I played a very flat thick 45 RPM record 12" and there was no "heartbeat" at all. Not faster, but rather gone. 2. I checked the belt and it looks fine. I'm thinking it was a record warp. Since it does not happen on the very flat records, then the turntable bearing is probably OK. The cartridge comes very, very close to the record when playing and a sharp warp could be the "bottoming out" heartbeat noise. Certainly I need to inspect this issue for more evidence. I immediately feared the worst, and typed up my question in haste. Thanks again, and I will be doing a more scientific investigation in the next few days and post my results. John |
Sounds like something could be mechanically "bottoming out" if it is periodic e.g cartridge rear end hitting a warp or negative VTA causing the thicker section of the tone arm to hit a warp(?) It's a long shot but perhaps when the Graham counterweight is ultra close to the pivot could become momentarily grounded with an extreme warp? I'm not very familiar with the 2.2 so this could be a big misconception on my part. |
Just for starters, how old is the turntable? Have you ever serviced the bearing in any way? For example, have you changed the lubricant? On the other hand, a periodic noise with that character of a heart beat is probably not due to a bad bearing. A bad bearing is likely to create a generally elevated and constant background noise. Do you own any 45 rpm LPs? When you play 45 rpm, does the timing between pulses increase accordingly with the speed? Does the pitch change at higher speeds? |
