Help me pick a phono, pre and cart

Yes, the unit selector in phono MC position and attenuator wide open.

R.

Btw, my unit is 3190 after 3 up-dates from the 3160 version.

Latest up-date was two months ago and when I was thinking my unit can't be improved any more. I was wrong about.

Things are that like 5-6 years from now I bougth some parts for my unit to test it and see what happens but I did not made the changes on those parts because it's way time consuming to make parts up-grades to a SS four layers boards as in my unit. So I did not nothing and forget about.

Well, looking in all my audio stuff suddenly I seen those parts that I already forgot I had and this time I made the change and fortunatelly was and is for the better. 
I can say that " everything changed "/improved due that today exist no unit/system noise floor level, we can't detect it not even when the system starts switch on: we can listen nothing but dead dead silence as if the system were switch off. I even check at each speaker single driver ( efficiency/sensitivity 95dbs. ) with an stethoscope and no sound at all! ! !

That kind of non-existent system noise floor changes for the better the overall listening experience as ever before. Forgeret about black  blackbackground,  I'm talking of an order of magnitud different: non-existent system  noise floor at all. Astonishing !.

R.

Hm. Sounds like raul is a bu$ine$$man looking to sell his preamp, but actually prefers digital (I didn't make that up):
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/phono-preamps-with-balls

Here's an excerpt from that thread:

A CD with a top DAC ( 32bits/384 khz.) and good overall design outperforms any phono stage it does not matters the phono stage price/pedigree ( including yours. ) in the bass " management " and this is not because your unit or other units are not good designs because I know your design is a good one but it’s because the differences between a digital and LP recording technics.

The recording microphones pick up all the music in stereo including the bass range but for the LP overall limitations the low bass comes not in stereo as when in the recording but in mono way when in digital comes as what were pick up by those recording session microphones, digital has no limitations about.

That is one of multiple reasons why digital outperforms LP/analog in the bass no matter what.

I repeat, it’s not your quality unit design but the " medium " limitations. No contest by analog in this regards against digital.

-and yet he calls me a liar for it.


As I said on that thread, I've yet to hear a digital system at any price have more bass impact than analog. Raul misses a key ingredient here- its probably not that digital hardware is inherently inferior in this regard. What raul doesn't seem to understand is the industry is the problem- CDs are expected to be played in a car so they are compressed as a result. LPs have no such expectation and so have less compression or none at all. This results in more bass impact.

I read earlier on that you have to replace the arm on the 1200G.  Not  true.  The arm on the 1200G is very very good.  If you wanted to pursue a different arm that may be better such as a Triplanar you certainly could but you may find that the arm on the 1200G may just work for you.  I would replace the platter mat and headshell/headshell cables.  I love the arm that comes with the 1200G and I am very picky.  It took me 5 years to find a table I liked.  I found it with the 1200G.  I cannot see how it can get much better for the money.

@rauliruegas Your words "there is no worst blind that the one that did not want to see." says the individual that refuses to "see" that engineering design of tube equipment can, and often does, provide superior results over solid state equipment.

I have finished responding to your epic novels.  

You should study Dale Carnegie.

Dear @bpoletti :  """   I have not heard any better phono stage at any price.  """

that's your post speaking of the Herron and I have to say that after your deep experiences at any price you have top credibility.

Btw, what you read on those links I posted were not my words or experiences: were other audiophiles experiences. Got that? ! ? ! ? 

Whom says: " there is no worst deaf that the one that did not want to hear " or whom says:  "" there is no worst blind that the one that did not want to see """

Unfortunatelly in your system you can't enjoy MUSIC only noises. Good for you.

R.

@rauliruegas "enough for now"?  Too much for nothing.  Concise is nice.  

So you're a manufacturer hawking your own design?   That doesn't exactly make you an objective source of information.  Since you're not an objective source of information, your credibility is damaged.  Damaged credibility makes your opinions of little value regardless of your EXTREME verbosity.  

Dear @sbank   and audiophiles: I don't know why you gave so long answer when I only ask for a " yes or no ", anyway thank's.

First think I have to tell you is that I already gave an specific SS advise to @jetson   and the whys about and even advise for specific cartridges and that's all.
Was not me whom started the SS/tube dialogue but @bpoletti   and latter that manufacturer bu$$ine$$s man and I need to give a wide explanation because one of them even implicated I'm a lier or told that I'm what in true I'm not.

First that all and no matter what a tube is a tube and nothing can change its heavy limitations and if the today designs improved well the SS too, so this argument that I don't know why you used in your post is totally useless with out sense to me.

The extreme superiority of well designed SS units over any tube design is obvious if you know about MUSIC and if take in count that we live not in the 50's or 60's but in 2018 where not only SS designs but digital technology grow up order of magnitudes for the better.
 I want to remember you and let know to other gentlemans what a very " old " SS design can do even today. You participated on that. Here are really interesting links about, interesting because the ones that always attack me just can't understand what I'm talking about because my overall audio and MUSIC experiences are way different from them and this include any manufacturer and proffesional reviewers:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150


this thread came from Andrew in Georgia with our very first design in my first trip to USA.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326185#3261...



this is the second owner of that unit. He owns very good system and had a noise problem with, read about.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326188#3261...


I visited twice this gentleman in Houston, second time was with the Essential 3160.
Please take a look of the system items all these gentlemans own.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326191#3261...


this gentleman was invited by Doug at his place.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326196#3261...

I want to say that till what we can read on those links the cartridges where all LOMC ones: Transfiguration, Colibri, ZYX Universe , Clearaudio and Titan the second time I was with Fred. Many other cartridges follows as the Lyra Olympos, My Sonic Labs, Myabi, Benz Micro, etc, etc..


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326211#3262...



that was the 3150 today my unit is an up-dated one and I can call it: 3190..



https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326226#3262...



https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/review-j-r-essential-essential-3160-preamplifier



this UK gentleman was the first owner of our unit.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326248#3262...


this gentleman is a music player, speaker designer and tube designer too.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326250#3262...


great system he own, cartridge the XV-1s.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326251#3262...Audiogon Discussion Forumforum.audiogon.comHere are my comments on the listening session I had with Raul and his Essential 3150 Full Function Preamplifier.Firstly, I would like to thank Raul. He ...


he is a player of a very well regarded Mexican Symphonic Orchestra, a great young gentleman as all the ones I had the luck to meet on those East/West USA coast trips..


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326259#3262...


this was in the west USA coast. This gentleman with the top of the line Wavac/Vac tube units and several top cartridges.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326270#3262...


well, Spencer as all the other gentlemans is a great hostess. At his place the very first moment that we were hearing/listening the Essential 3150 there were other two gentlemans, one of them was Joe  ( the owner of the system where those 40-50 audiophiles attend as part of the club Spencer talks. ) , whom knew very well the Spencer's audio system, at the first moment that the first notes of the LP came out from the speakers he approached to one of my ears and told me " Raul you are a genius ". Obviously I'm not.

The day in Joe's place with all those club members was a great experience for all of us and not only because the Essential 3150 performance but because Lloyd Walwer was invited to that special session. Joe is a Walker customer through his TT. Very good system and not only for the TT but those great Kharma speakers.

Lloyds was part of that " chorus line " Spencer refered and I remember that before some one introduce me with him Joe ask Lloyd something like " what do you think about, on what he was listening ? " and he only made a sign with his hand up: " spot on ". 
I think some way or the other all in that session learned a lot because almost the 100% of the people were tube lovers where our unit was an intruder.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326272#3262...


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326231#3262...

I was twice with Albert in different times. The first time I remember very clear that he was loading his LOMC cartridge ( I think the Myabi. ) at around 400 ohms-500 ohms through his Aesthetix I/O and I told him that the quality performance for that cartridge was not up to what the cartridge can shows when loaded correctly. We play it in the Essential at 100 ohms and suddenly " ligths on ".

With him I had the opportunity to meet part of his audio group and a Dagogo reviewer.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/our-home-system-how-good-it-is


I was too in Denver at Tom place whom is the Galibier TT designer/manufacturer, great audiophile gentleman.


I have to say that I think that only @pryso was using a non LOMC cartridge and if I remember was Grado one. 

As I told I was an " intruder " with all those gentlemans because almost all were or are tube audiophiles and our unit is a full SS.

We did not made a shoot-out with any of those tube/hybrid electronics but only against a Dartzeel full fuction phonolinepreamp and this was in the San Diego area and yes the Essential outperformed it.

Here in San Diego where I was invited to a presentation in a big audio show rooms of one of the main audio distributors in the area and attend at least 30 audiophiles maybe 40. What a great time with and was a very good experience for those tube people.

Btw, our Essential unit accross those trips always was connected and listened " just " after the arrive of fligths or long run roads over different places and these means that never took the time for the unit been in rest for some time after the flight/road and temperature changes from snow to 40° celcius  and the unit always shows its quality performance level. This kind of circuit stability speaks for its self.

All cartridges were loaded at 100-150 ohms ( no exception. ) and we did't care about capacitance or the like. Our unit " knows " what to does. Only bad designs has troubles, not ours.


@sbank in your post you try to " diminish " your speakers about bass range I can't understand for sure why other than trying to dimish the Essential in that frequency range but all over those links our unit was connected in full range and even with subwoofers audio systems and in all shows it its quality performance levels.

Btw, @bpoletti posted about harsh sound from SS electronics and the bu$sine$$ man on brigthness with and I have to say that in the past I talk exactly in the same way till I learned how MUSIC sounds live at near field position where we can listen that harsh/brigthness qualities.
So if in our each one home audio system we do not listen those qualities that are inherent to the live MUSIC then we are listening a way colored system/room presentation that's not truer to the recording.


"""  Raul is a digital aficionado. He’s not into vinyl.."""


as always spreading lies and nothing else and a person that spreads liers is a dishonest person it does not matters if for ignorance or on purpose.

In no one of all those places I visited we only listened LPs not a single CD. Spencer knows that but I don't want to ask him to attest about but I want to disturb a gentleman that came several times to my place:

@cardani, please tell us if in any single of the times you were at my place you listenede to a single digital medium. Thank's in advance.


"""  Neither are there any solid state phono sections with response to DC;  """

another lie from the same dishonest person:

http://www.spectralaudio.com/dmc-20.htm

http://www.spectralaudio.com/dmc-20spec.htm

and it's not the only SS electronics that shows that DC bandwindth other than our Essential.


"""  With regards to bass and highs, tubes can go from DC to many MHz  """

I never talk or posted about bandwindth but only frequency extremes where tubes can't handle in the rigth way, only well designed SS electronics can. We have to remember that the main target is to stay truer to the recording that means nearest to the live music to what the recording microhones pick up. Tube and SS are way way different in those regards, tubes for the worst and SS for the better. Facts are facts and no one can change it even with dishonest lies.


"""  bandwidth from 1Hz to 100KHz, with bandwidth intentionally limited to prevent damage to tweeters from RFI..."""


another on purpose lie because as the Spectral or our Essential any well designed electronics can goes to Mhz with out problem but the designer must have the knowledge to design it, knowledge and skills how to do it.


more lies:

"""  nor does the RIAA spec past 20KHz; so many phono sections, solid state included, """"""

these are RIAA eq. of SS measurements:

https://get.google.com/albumarchive/104284617601331669309/album/AF1QipPGwVfiWSHynlELSEYgXBVdyx1X8IKa...


and look the outstanding measurement of same RIAA in our Essential:


https://get.google.com/albumarchive/104284617601331669309/album/AF1QipMFuJ0YVzL64lrK46jDWyUx7h0SGhNy...



Enough for now.

R.

@atmasphere    Thank you. 

I'm using a Herron VTPH-2a (big surprise to everyone, eh?) with no loading.  I have not experienced any change in the AT cartridges' performance run in that unit.  

@bpoletti It has to, Ohm's Law and such.

How much it does so is not as well researched, but I've seen a good number of audiophiles do loading by ear- essentially dialing out brightness by using a potentiometer as the loading resistor and when they felt they had it right, replaced the pot with a fixed value. I've done this myself.

But loading does not affect the output of a LOMC cartridge insofar as the coil is concerned- this is because the inductance is so low that it basically doesn't ring at audio frequencies. I know this from having passed squarewaves through such cartridges and observing the effect of the cartridge coils on an oscilloscope (BTW this is not for the faint of heart- one screwup and you could degauss the magnet or damage the coil).

So there are really only two explanations for why loading kills brightness, and stopping the ringing in the cartridge is not one of them (although in high output MM cartridges loading does affect the cartridge at audio frequencies). The two explanations are:1) the preamp is bright due to RFI; removing the RFI corrects the problem2) the cartridge is less able to respond to high frequencies due to the extra work it has to do.
The problem with the first explanation is that by varying the load, you can vary the brightness like a tone control. It should be that once the load has killed the RF resonance, that the preamp is OK. However, the peak that we are concerned about is a good 30db higher than that of the signal, and by detuning it only a little it can still have an effect. So the loading, if variable, should have a slight tone control effect. But you can load the cartridge so that its too dull... although I find that such might also just result in reduced output- a lot depends on the individual cartridge.

The problem with the second explanation is that its too disturbing. Once the RF resonance is killed, by decreasing the load value even further, we can still hear that highs are being decreased with *some* cartridges. This does suggest that the cartridge itself is becoming stiffer and less able to respond to higher frequencies. It may also mean that it does not track as well in some arms, that depending on the effective mass and resulting mechanical resonance which has been changed by the electrical loading.

IMO, this topic deserves more attention, since one of the main complaints against vinyl is ticks and pops, and one of the other complaints is the nuance required to get a proper setup. Both would be made easier if there were more light on this subject.

@atmasphere   Just a question to help my understanding of cartridge motor operation and loading.  Only seeking information from one who knows....

Does cartridge loading impact motor operation, cartridge compliance, frequency response or other factors in playback?  Or are these factors too insignificant to be considered when using a well-designed phono stage?  

I don't mind if your answer is very detailed. 

Thanks in advance,

Bill 

The one thing I have learned is that you'll want a phono stage that is highly adjustable if you want to use a moving coil cartridge. Loading can make the difference in SQ. I was interested in the Ayre phono stage as well but it did not have the correct loading available for my AMG cartridge and I ended up with a Musical Surrounding Nova II.

@joey54 If you have to load the cartridge to get it to sound right, this is a sign that the phono section is unstable and unhappy when RFI is applied to its input. Loading detunes the Radio Frequency resonant peak that is created by the inductance of the cartridge and the capacitance on the interconnect cable. This is why some phono preamps sound better when the cartridge is 'loaded'.

Cartridge manufacturers make loading recommendations because they have no idea if the phono section you're using is stable or not. Generally their recommendations are in fact that- very general, since they don't know the amount of capacitance in the tone arm cable either. If the phono section is stable, the stock 47K load will do the job.
A down side of loading is that you are causing the coils of the cartridge to drive a much lower impedance- meaning that they are doing more work. This extra energy comes from somewhere- the stylus in the groove- so when you employ lower impedances for loading you also reduce the compliance of the cartridge and its ability to track higher frequencies. Something to think about.

@sbank 
Thanks for all your insight, I’d go on but be superfluous. Really appreciate it. 
@bpoletti 
Thanks to you as well, I don’t disagree that that TT isn’t a great deal, but not for me, 
Cheers,
Jim

@bpoletti the story about my friend was with a single-ended Prime, lol. I am happy you haven't had any trouble and suggest that if you or others ever need to disassemble just be sure to measure every angle & take a bunch of pics before doing so. 
YouI had enough of this thread. Good luck, @jetson, whatever you decide. Cheers,
Spencer 

@sbank 

My opinion....

Wow!!  What a GREAT reason to use single-ended / unbalanced wiring!   And a great reason to enjoy the superior performance of single ended electronics!!  YOMV.

@bpoletti Yes, you'd think "a small box swap-out" is a simple thing, but the problem is that to change it out you need to remove the entire tonearm. The pieces that make up the base two pieces of the "dog leg", the VTA tower, etc. all separate. After swapping the rectangle box, when you then align the base pieces they need to be at the exact same angle as before, but there is no way to guarantee the correct geometry. And guessing or going by sight alone will cause serious detriment to the ability of the cartridge to track correctly and do its job.
When I called Harry after buying the XLR "little box" asking for direction on how to reassemble the arm and pointing out the lack of markings etc. to him, he wowed me by telling me to send back the arm and that he would replace it with the then-new 12.7 at zero cost! He even told me to keep the old arm-wand and use it as a spare. That was great service. That VPI is no more. 
A friend of mine is a professional musician for one of the top 5 orchestras in the US. He bought a Prime directly from VPI and for months knowing exactly what he should be hearing on most classical recordings, he had a strange polarity problem that resulted in weird soundstage effects like instruments in the wrong place and no depth. After checking & rechecking his cabling, turntable setup etc. and having a couple of friends do the same, they all concluded that the table was hooked up right. He called VPI's service mgr., (Mark?), and then Mat. They both blamed his mis-wiring the cartridge connections which was triple-checked, then the phono stage. So he sent that in for service, which of course wasn't needed.
After waiting for phono stage return, at the end of his rope with no solution in sight, I brought another whole analog setup over and switched out everything one at a time to debug it all. At the end of the day 3 of us concluded that the "little Din-RCA box" on his VPI arm was improperly wired inside the box. Mat laughed at the suggestion, but eventually agreed to have it sent back. Weeks later, a correctly wired box showed up and everything finally worked as it should. After that whole fiasco, I can't recommend VPI to anyone anymore. There are too many great products & great companies with stellar support to accept anything else. Yes, VPI has it's fans, but all is not wine & song. At least no one is suggesting that @jetson order one from advertised "#1 VPI dealer" Soundstage Direct. Cheers,
Spencer

@sbank and @jetson 

My opinion....

(I was the one making the suggestion on the "other forum."))

I have that early version of the JMW-12.  Nothing at all wrong with it from either a performance or maintenance perspective.  Even have two arm wands.  My Ariea Extended is in the original configuration except for the feet (now three Stillpoint cones instead of the VPI sandals) and placing it on a maple butcher block board.  It's an easy table to set up and when it's set up correctly, on those Stillpoint cones, it is a spectacular performer.  

More opinion....

Without hearing the EXACT table under consideration, I would suggest that at $3500, it is the single best bargain in turntables currently available.  Even if it is not a textbook Hot Rod, it's still a great table priced maybe $1500 below similar models.

And yet another boring opinion....

@sbank   I hear very clearly your concerns.  If the table is kept in its current configuration, it's my opinion that it will be a great performer.  Even if it is converted to balanced outputs from the tonearm, that's a matter of a small box swap-out.  Not sure how Mat / Harry suggests making that change.  

@jetson Thought I read someone suggesting to you a VPI TNT V HR on one of the other sites. I just read that ad and want to caution you about it. First, it's not a HR. HR denotes that instead of a separate armboard drilled/screwed into the plinth, that the tonearm attaches directly to the plinth, theoretically eliminating potential additional resonances from the armboard. 
Second the JMW arm is a really early version. I owned a JMW12.6 which similarly had a multi-piece base that attached to the plinth. The pieces of the base have no markings or other guides that will allow you to optimize the placement on the plinth. If you ever need to disassemble the arm(e.g. when I changed the DIN connection box from RCA to a balanced version) there is no way to ensure proper reassembly. Harry realized this and changed to a one piece tonearm base in the 12.7 version of the JMW, a significant improvement.  IMHO that table is far from a bargain, and one I wouldn't want to one even at a better price. Cheers,
Spencer

@rauliruegas I went back to old gmails to try to remember what year it was that you visited me, & heard my Atma-Sphere MA1 mkII amps and MP-3(Ralph’s most affordable model) preamp/phonopreamp. The preamp was fitted with my personal choices of vintage tubes, which ones exactly escapes my memory at this point. Another variable worth noting is you may recall is that my house was located about 1000ft. from the largest radio tower in my state, and it wreaked havoc on my phono playback at times with a wide variety of phono stages of all design types. 
My gmail goes back to 2008 and the oldest messages we exchanged referenced your visit earlier. So what you heard at my place was 7-8 year old designs back 11 or more years ago. In other words gear designed by @atmasphere about 20 years ago. IME, not a fair comparison to what he offers today. We also listened through my Merlin speakers which while arguably quite revealing in the mids & treble, lack the ability to reproduce very low bass at all. To use that listening session as a testament to the detriment of tube gear or @atmasphere ’s gear in particular just doesn’t hold water IMHO.
@rauliruegas, unless it’s to suggest additional specific ss phono stages for @jetson in his budget, I’d suggest resisting the temptation to reply with more statements about merit of SS vs. tube gear or at least respect @jetson’s kindly worded request for you to take that conversation to a thread about SS vs. tube phono stages or gear in general. In a free world you have the choice to build bridges or burn them. With all due respect, I suggest you do the former.
As an aside, I'm about to go to a Nagra SS battery-powered phono stage in my system. FWIW, my experience is that both design types can be great and it's more about the individual design than just "tube vs. ss". Cheers,
Spencer

@jetson I have heard that VPI is willing to help check out their products.  

That does look like a good deal. The only issue is shipping to NJ. I messaged the guy and he’s willing. I just need to think about it and maybe contact VPI to see if they'll give it a once over.

@jetson My opinion...  

And for that matter, a used early VPI TNT or Aries can be tweaked to perform outstanding without a lot of effort.  There is a used fairly early TNT Hot Rod with a JMW-12 arm with a stand for sale for $3500 somewhere on another forum site with a for sale section.  You will need to search around for it, but for $3500 for the entire package, I think it's a steal.  Just my opinion.  

@jetson talk w Johnny R also
pretty sure he has the Etna Delos ( and way North of that ) and tge NOVA as it is in Musical Surroundings group - as is a table you are considering
i was advocating a used Basis, who knows Johnny is so plugged in he may have a line on one......
anyway
good hunting

@joey54 The adjustability is one of the main reasons I’m currently planning on the Herron VTPH-2A. When I spoke with Keith he said I probably wouldn’t need any loading plugs with the AT9. I’ll talk with Nick first and see what other carts he might recommend and be sure to talk with Keith Herron again. From what I have researched online any Basis is way outside my budget. 
@tomic601 I have spoken with @ctsooner(Pete) before. He was real helpful when I was looking at speakers (Vandy) and amps (Ayre). I’m unfamiliar with Delos and NOVA. I will give him a call. Thanks 

i can say the Delos into a NOVA II is quite sweet.....

@jetson this is where I believe it is very necessary to have a trusting relationship with your dealer. Johnny R is IMO that kind of dealer - they disply the 7 and Richard who is a hyper fan of Vinyl stops by there and listens and they get great sound...
my Basis came thru him to @ctsooner ( Pete ) but you are on right track listening to it as a system there trying to discern one phono pre from another when most if not all the other gear changes is madness...

 

Yes, thats Nick. He can give you a good idea of the differences in sound between the VPI's and the Clearaudio's.

Clearaudio makes a number of good turntable depending upon your budget. Given your budget I would suggest the Clearaudio Performance DC turntable. Audio Connection can give you a discount on a cartridge as well if you buy it with your table and choose any cartridge that Musical Surrounding sells. If you go with the AT that probably won't apply.

The one thing I have learned is that you'll want a phono stage that is highly adjustable if you want to use a moving coil cartridge. Loading can make the difference in SQ. I was interested in the Ayre phono stage as well but it did not have the correct loading available for my AMG cartridge and I ended up with a Musical Surrounding Nova II. I would like to upgrade to the Aesthetix Rhea, eventually.

I have done a comparison between a VPI Prime, not the signature version, and the Clearaudio Performance DC in my home system and I preferred the Clearaudio. YMMV and I urge you to hear them both. Your listening priorities and mine may be different. For me the Clearaudio sounded much more natural however, they did not have the same cartridge on them so it really wasn't apples to apples. 

@joey54 Thanks, as I recall he has blonde hair and glasses.
I figure that I’ll buy my phono pre and so I can audition with my amps.

I would appreciate if anyone can comment on the tables these brands offer as I’d like to buy from Audio Connection; both because I like John, and because he’ll give me a discount since I plan to buy Quatro CTs at the same time.  Although that doesn’t mean I’ve decided against the Technics SL1200G or a different used TT, although again, I hesitate to buy used since I can’t audition, although I guess I could re-sell. Thanks 

I meant to add that I don’t think they have any VPI’s, set up at Audio Connection, though I know they recently sold a few Prime’s. 

“I was just at John Rutan’s a couple of weeks ago, listening to the new Ayre EX-8 integrated.
As far as TT’s go, he carries VPI, and Clear Audio, which is the reason I was considering a Prime TT. It seems difficult to find places where I can audition A/B comparisons on turntables. Never mind cartridges.”

Audio Connection also carries Rega, AMG and Music Hall TT’s. For vinyl I would talk to Nick, he’s the analog guru there. Nick will let you try some phono stages at home as well.

Most of the reputable tube dealers manually tested each NOS tube for low microphonics, low noise etc. Lucky people knows the difference between new and nos when it comes to the great tubes. I bet you have some decent NOS tubes yourself.

Anyway it’s a good news that your or herron preamps works great with stock new tubes.

BTW i really like the design of Atma-Sphere MP-1 and MP-3

Thanks!
Actually I don’t stash NOS tubes and I don’t use them. My thinking is I should be able to make it work with the garden variety of what’s available. Further, we usually find that the tube dealers really don’t have tubes as quiet as the new ones (we have found this out when customers have sometimes ignored our advice and tried to use NOS tubes). So I really mean it when I say we don’t recommend NOS tubes in our phono sections.

@atmasphere 

Yes- new tubes. We don't recommend NOS tubes for either the output tubes or the phono tubes. In the case of the latter, its just too hard to find NOS tubes that are actually in fact quiet- those were sold off the shelves decades ago and all that are left now are the dregs unless someone got extremely lucky. So we don't recommend NOS tubes for our phono sections- we encourage people to use new tubes if they want the best noise floor and lowest microphonics.

Most of the reputable tube dealers manually tested each NOS tube for low microphonics, low noise etc. Lucky people knows the difference between new and nos when it comes to the great tubes. I bet you have some decent NOS tubes yourself. 

Anyway it's a good news that your or herron preamps works great with stock new tubes. 

BTW i really like the design of Atma-Sphere MP-1 and MP-3 

Something from the ARC Ref series. Maybe a Ref 2 or Ref 3 Phono stage.

You should probably start a new thread as well. Be prepared to be campaigned about the Herron phono stage

I have a pair of Vandersteen 5As, ARC Ref 3 preamp, ARC Ref 100 amp and am now ready to get a turntable,etc. My preamp does not have phono stage...so any suggestions about best way to complete my analog system will be greatly appreciated. 

Modwright has a new tube phonostage PH 9.0 coming out soon. I will be a beta tester and will be comparing it to a Rogue Audio Ares Magnum (another good tube phono pre). The 9.0 has the controls on the front it uses 6922/6C45 tubes versus the 12AX7/12AU7 in the Ares. The ART9 is a great cartridge also can recommend the Ortofon Cadenza Bronze.

You're talking about the new tubes, not the expensive vintage NOS tubes that are by far superior to the any new tube. 12at7 is what you use? The very best of this type can be $50-150 each. Same with phono stages. The NOS tubes are extremely expensive if they are good. New tubes are not equal to the old tubes from the 50s,60s and even 70s. The owner of the tube gear will spend a fortune on the tubes.

@chakster 

Yes- new tubes. We don't recommend NOS tubes for either the output tubes or the phono tubes. In the case of the latter, its just too hard to find NOS tubes that are actually in fact quiet- those were sold off the shelves decades ago and all that are left now are the dregs unless someone got extremely lucky. So we don't recommend NOS tubes for our phono sections- we encourage people to use new tubes if they want the best noise floor and lowest microphonics.

does Ralph have a stand alone phono pre ?

@tomic601 We don't- we feel that a stand alone can't sound as good due to the cable connection problems and further, we have what seem to be the best line stage circuits anywhere owing to their unique direct-coupled outputs- they play bass better than other preamps (tube or solid state) and are fast in the mids and highs like solid state but without the glare.
We've considered a phono section many times, the problem is that to get around the interconnect connection issues we have to put in the circuitry that is in the output buffer of our preamps. The problem there is that the buffer (which is used to prevent the interconnect cable from having any effect on the sound at all, regardless of length or cost) has a slight gain loss, so when we add that, then its the same circuit we're making in our full function preamps! So literally the difference would be a phono section that was all the same circuit as we make now, only missing the input selector switches and volume control.

I've always been into vinyl- our preamps were built to optimize phono playback.

Dear @sbank : Please can you attest  if what i listened at your place were a phonolinepreamp and a pair of monoblocks by Atmasphere manufacture you owned in your audio system?

Sorry to disturb you about, thank's in advance. Appreciated.

R.

@jetson

Technics own website states that DD was/is mainly considered for DJ use, while belt drive was for “Hi- Fi” use.

That’s not true, historically Technics SL1200 is a japanese hi-fi component than later became an iconic turntable for DJs worldwide. First DJs started with Thorens TD125 and even with Garrard turntables. EMT was a professional turntable too. As you might know that Technics supplied SP-10mkII and EPA-100 tonearms for Radio Stations in the 70’s, at that day DJ equipment was way different from todays junk.

Thanks all- very sincerely! The question that plagues my mind is where and how I can audition these different preamps and turntables, or more importantly combinations of same - and at the same time separate the differences in the carts or other gear the dealers have.  With other gear, I have been working with Johnny Rutan at Audio connection. He sells VPI and Basis. I haven’t talked to him yet about turntables, but from what I’ve seen the Basis units are out of my price range. Another local dealer sells Clear Audio and Pro-Ject but I’d rather not give him my money (bad history). Ultimately,  it seems that I need to just make a decision that leaves me with modification options in the future. 
Since the major difference between the Technics and VPI seems to be belt vs Direct drive, perhaps that’s the area I need to concentrate on as far as my listening preference.
Interestingly, Technics own website states that DD was/is mainly considered for DJ use, while belt drive was for “Hi- Fi” use. 
I guess I’ll just have to find some different dealers and audition different turntables. Still I  don’t know how I will differentiate it does sound quality between turn tables versus other gear that the dealers use.Uggh.

To be truthful I have never heard a Herron
what is out there for a Delos ???
into a NAIM
the Nova II is pretty good
and I have some supposedly fantastic Tom Evans coming.....
we shall hear.... and then see
or not....
ha

basis w Vector arm
the Triplaner is wicked good but out of range $$$
Delos
Aesthetix 
my $.02
does Ralph have a stand alone phono pre ?
i would consider his gear also

@chakster How can you pass blind judgement against a unit you've never heard?  Why are you so quick to pass negative judgement on Herron gear?

I have never heard anything as good as a Herron VTPH-2a nor have I heard an equal.  Tube, solid state, hybrid.  I can't claim to have heard the same 17,926 phono stages Raul claims, but I have heard quite a few.  Herron tops what I've heard.

If the Herron sound more like solid state phono stage then why not just buy a decent solid state phono stage? 

I've never tried Herron producsts, i believe they are great, but there must be equal or even better solid state phono stages. Do you believe? 

I preferred the Zesto Andros phono pre over the Herron, but that is just me.  Different sounding phono stages, and the Herron is definitely more Neutral sounding and sounds more like a solid state phono stage.  Depends on what sound you're looking for.  My dealer loves the VPI line, as do I.   I would go with the VPI table, Zesto Andros, and for the cartridge either the Ortofon Cadenza Bronze or an Airtight PC7.  If you order all from one dealer then you are likely to get a better discount built in from my experiences.  Feel free to message me if you'd like his info.  Best of luck in your search and welcome to the vinyl club!   

I find with the herron that you really don't need to go crazy on vintage Tubes. Keith has done an excellent job voicing it with the Tubes he provides.

That has been my feeling as well.  While in the case of various tube power amps I have used over the years I have found small signal tubes to make dramatic differences, and in most applications I have found tubes from the 1940s to 1960s to be preferable to recent production, I have never felt any desire to tinker with the voicing Keith has achieved with the tubes he supplies in his phono stage.

Best regards,
-- Al 

@chakster I find with the herron that you really don't need to go crazy on vintage Tubes. Keith has done an excellent job voicing it with the Tubes he provides. I bought the best telefunken Tubes you can get from Andy at vintage Tubes but when I went back to stock it was 99%. Now I'm running about $150 of Philips that I preferred in a direct AB against the teles and stock. So I sold the teles, bought some more Philips and pocketed the difference.  Now I should be set for life. 

@chakster When you auditioned the Herron VTPH-2a, what other equipment was in use in the system?  Which cartridge was used?  

@atmasphere 

Just a FWIW: we get about 10,000 hours out of our power tubes and warranty all the tubes in our gear for a year.

You're talking about the new tubes, not the expensive vintage NOS tubes that are by far superior to the any new tube. 12at7 is what you use? The very best of this type can be $50-150 each. Same with phono stages. The NOS tubes are extremely expensive if they are good. New tubes are not equal to the old tubes from the 50s,60s and even 70s. The owner of the tube gear will spend a fortune on the tubes. I'm quit, it was enough for me. Now i have to sell the tubes i boughin the past. 

In my opinion it's much better to find a decent solid state amp or phono preamp. 

I am not agains the tubes, but the posts here looks like only "tube sound" is right which is not true! 

Also i don't believe that Herron is the answer, because it is a tube phono stage (and very expensive unit). 
 

@analogluvr   +5

I have owned Herron Audio equipment since it was first made available.  All my electronics are from Herron Audio including his exquisite amps.  Oh, wait....  Not the digital transport.  

Raul who?

 Another very very happy Herron phono stage user here.
The only reason Raul is so against Tubes is because he designed a solid-state phono stage. I am another one that thinks that Tubes sound like music with soul and ss is good for power supplies. 

 Although I haven't heard his full function preamp I think you would also be quite happy with atmospheres MP one.    By all accounts a great line stage and phono stage in one box. I also think the ART 9 suggestion is a very good one. 
I would also consider the new techniques if I were you. Just take your time, listen to lots of stuff and enjoy the process.Oh and don't listen to Raul.