Help me pick a phono, pre and cart

Yes, the unit selector in phono MC position and attenuator wide open.

R.

Btw, my unit is 3190 after 3 up-dates from the 3160 version.

Latest up-date was two months ago and when I was thinking my unit can't be improved any more. I was wrong about.

Things are that like 5-6 years from now I bougth some parts for my unit to test it and see what happens but I did not made the changes on those parts because it's way time consuming to make parts up-grades to a SS four layers boards as in my unit. So I did not nothing and forget about.

Well, looking in all my audio stuff suddenly I seen those parts that I already forgot I had and this time I made the change and fortunatelly was and is for the better. 
I can say that " everything changed "/improved due that today exist no unit/system noise floor level, we can't detect it not even when the system starts switch on: we can listen nothing but dead dead silence as if the system were switch off. I even check at each speaker single driver ( efficiency/sensitivity 95dbs. ) with an stethoscope and no sound at all! ! !

That kind of non-existent system noise floor changes for the better the overall listening experience as ever before. Forgeret about black  blackbackground,  I'm talking of an order of magnitud different: non-existent system  noise floor at all. Astonishing !.

R.

Dear @bpoletti :  """   I have not heard any better phono stage at any price.  """

that's your post speaking of the Herron and I have to say that after your deep experiences at any price you have top credibility.

Btw, what you read on those links I posted were not my words or experiences: were other audiophiles experiences. Got that? ! ? ! ? 

Whom says: " there is no worst deaf that the one that did not want to hear " or whom says:  "" there is no worst blind that the one that did not want to see """

Unfortunatelly in your system you can't enjoy MUSIC only noises. Good for you.

R.

Dear @sbank   and audiophiles: I don't know why you gave so long answer when I only ask for a " yes or no ", anyway thank's.

First think I have to tell you is that I already gave an specific SS advise to @jetson   and the whys about and even advise for specific cartridges and that's all.
Was not me whom started the SS/tube dialogue but @bpoletti   and latter that manufacturer bu$$ine$$s man and I need to give a wide explanation because one of them even implicated I'm a lier or told that I'm what in true I'm not.

First that all and no matter what a tube is a tube and nothing can change its heavy limitations and if the today designs improved well the SS too, so this argument that I don't know why you used in your post is totally useless with out sense to me.

The extreme superiority of well designed SS units over any tube design is obvious if you know about MUSIC and if take in count that we live not in the 50's or 60's but in 2018 where not only SS designs but digital technology grow up order of magnitudes for the better.
 I want to remember you and let know to other gentlemans what a very " old " SS design can do even today. You participated on that. Here are really interesting links about, interesting because the ones that always attack me just can't understand what I'm talking about because my overall audio and MUSIC experiences are way different from them and this include any manufacturer and proffesional reviewers:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150


this thread came from Andrew in Georgia with our very first design in my first trip to USA.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326185#3261...



this is the second owner of that unit. He owns very good system and had a noise problem with, read about.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326188#3261...


I visited twice this gentleman in Houston, second time was with the Essential 3160.
Please take a look of the system items all these gentlemans own.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326191#3261...


this gentleman was invited by Doug at his place.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326196#3261...

I want to say that till what we can read on those links the cartridges where all LOMC ones: Transfiguration, Colibri, ZYX Universe , Clearaudio and Titan the second time I was with Fred. Many other cartridges follows as the Lyra Olympos, My Sonic Labs, Myabi, Benz Micro, etc, etc..


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326211#3262...



that was the 3150 today my unit is an up-dated one and I can call it: 3190..



https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326226#3262...



https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/review-j-r-essential-essential-3160-preamplifier



this UK gentleman was the first owner of our unit.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326248#3262...


this gentleman is a music player, speaker designer and tube designer too.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326250#3262...


great system he own, cartridge the XV-1s.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326251#3262...Audiogon Discussion Forumforum.audiogon.comHere are my comments on the listening session I had with Raul and his Essential 3150 Full Function Preamplifier.Firstly, I would like to thank Raul. He ...


he is a player of a very well regarded Mexican Symphonic Orchestra, a great young gentleman as all the ones I had the luck to meet on those East/West USA coast trips..


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326259#3262...


this was in the west USA coast. This gentleman with the top of the line Wavac/Vac tube units and several top cartridges.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326270#3262...


well, Spencer as all the other gentlemans is a great hostess. At his place the very first moment that we were hearing/listening the Essential 3150 there were other two gentlemans, one of them was Joe  ( the owner of the system where those 40-50 audiophiles attend as part of the club Spencer talks. ) , whom knew very well the Spencer's audio system, at the first moment that the first notes of the LP came out from the speakers he approached to one of my ears and told me " Raul you are a genius ". Obviously I'm not.

The day in Joe's place with all those club members was a great experience for all of us and not only because the Essential 3150 performance but because Lloyd Walwer was invited to that special session. Joe is a Walker customer through his TT. Very good system and not only for the TT but those great Kharma speakers.

Lloyds was part of that " chorus line " Spencer refered and I remember that before some one introduce me with him Joe ask Lloyd something like " what do you think about, on what he was listening ? " and he only made a sign with his hand up: " spot on ". 
I think some way or the other all in that session learned a lot because almost the 100% of the people were tube lovers where our unit was an intruder.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326272#3262...


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326231#3262...

I was twice with Albert in different times. The first time I remember very clear that he was loading his LOMC cartridge ( I think the Myabi. ) at around 400 ohms-500 ohms through his Aesthetix I/O and I told him that the quality performance for that cartridge was not up to what the cartridge can shows when loaded correctly. We play it in the Essential at 100 ohms and suddenly " ligths on ".

With him I had the opportunity to meet part of his audio group and a Dagogo reviewer.


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/our-home-system-how-good-it-is


I was too in Denver at Tom place whom is the Galibier TT designer/manufacturer, great audiophile gentleman.


I have to say that I think that only @pryso was using a non LOMC cartridge and if I remember was Grado one. 

As I told I was an " intruder " with all those gentlemans because almost all were or are tube audiophiles and our unit is a full SS.

We did not made a shoot-out with any of those tube/hybrid electronics but only against a Dartzeel full fuction phonolinepreamp and this was in the San Diego area and yes the Essential outperformed it.

Here in San Diego where I was invited to a presentation in a big audio show rooms of one of the main audio distributors in the area and attend at least 30 audiophiles maybe 40. What a great time with and was a very good experience for those tube people.

Btw, our Essential unit accross those trips always was connected and listened " just " after the arrive of fligths or long run roads over different places and these means that never took the time for the unit been in rest for some time after the flight/road and temperature changes from snow to 40° celcius  and the unit always shows its quality performance level. This kind of circuit stability speaks for its self.

All cartridges were loaded at 100-150 ohms ( no exception. ) and we did't care about capacitance or the like. Our unit " knows " what to does. Only bad designs has troubles, not ours.


@sbank in your post you try to " diminish " your speakers about bass range I can't understand for sure why other than trying to dimish the Essential in that frequency range but all over those links our unit was connected in full range and even with subwoofers audio systems and in all shows it its quality performance levels.

Btw, @bpoletti posted about harsh sound from SS electronics and the bu$sine$$ man on brigthness with and I have to say that in the past I talk exactly in the same way till I learned how MUSIC sounds live at near field position where we can listen that harsh/brigthness qualities.
So if in our each one home audio system we do not listen those qualities that are inherent to the live MUSIC then we are listening a way colored system/room presentation that's not truer to the recording.


"""  Raul is a digital aficionado. He’s not into vinyl.."""


as always spreading lies and nothing else and a person that spreads liers is a dishonest person it does not matters if for ignorance or on purpose.

In no one of all those places I visited we only listened LPs not a single CD. Spencer knows that but I don't want to ask him to attest about but I want to disturb a gentleman that came several times to my place:

@cardani, please tell us if in any single of the times you were at my place you listenede to a single digital medium. Thank's in advance.


"""  Neither are there any solid state phono sections with response to DC;  """

another lie from the same dishonest person:

http://www.spectralaudio.com/dmc-20.htm

http://www.spectralaudio.com/dmc-20spec.htm

and it's not the only SS electronics that shows that DC bandwindth other than our Essential.


"""  With regards to bass and highs, tubes can go from DC to many MHz  """

I never talk or posted about bandwindth but only frequency extremes where tubes can't handle in the rigth way, only well designed SS electronics can. We have to remember that the main target is to stay truer to the recording that means nearest to the live music to what the recording microhones pick up. Tube and SS are way way different in those regards, tubes for the worst and SS for the better. Facts are facts and no one can change it even with dishonest lies.


"""  bandwidth from 1Hz to 100KHz, with bandwidth intentionally limited to prevent damage to tweeters from RFI..."""


another on purpose lie because as the Spectral or our Essential any well designed electronics can goes to Mhz with out problem but the designer must have the knowledge to design it, knowledge and skills how to do it.


more lies:

"""  nor does the RIAA spec past 20KHz; so many phono sections, solid state included, """"""

these are RIAA eq. of SS measurements:

https://get.google.com/albumarchive/104284617601331669309/album/AF1QipPGwVfiWSHynlELSEYgXBVdyx1X8IKa...


and look the outstanding measurement of same RIAA in our Essential:


https://get.google.com/albumarchive/104284617601331669309/album/AF1QipMFuJ0YVzL64lrK46jDWyUx7h0SGhNy...



Enough for now.

R.

Dear @sbank : Please can you attest  if what i listened at your place were a phonolinepreamp and a pair of monoblocks by Atmasphere manufacture you owned in your audio system?

Sorry to disturb you about, thank's in advance. Appreciated.

R.

@clearthink: So, those statements makes sense to you, good for you speaks whom you are.

Btw, nothing has to do with: """  everyone who disagrees with you ....."""
the issue is not if disagrees with me that's not the main point but that maybe people are not aware of what's in disagreenment with and not with me.

Yes, I have awareness on several audio subjects you don't yet in the same manner/way that there are some audio subjects you are really good and where I'm ignorant because I'm not aware of it. Simple as that.

Btw, are you willing to learn? because I always am.

R.

Dear @jetson : All of us live in a free world and you and me are part of rthat world. Internet forums are part of that free world. Before what you call " debate " my last post in the thread said to you: " Good Luck ".
Was other member and latter other ones whom started asking something " about ".

In the other side, in your last post you said: " is irrelevant to my decision " when in your thread posted why is relevant to your decision even if you don't like it that " debate " or that you just don't care:

""  I’m looking for help in picking a phono player pre and cart .

Right now my main thoughts are VPI Prime Scout or Prime with Grado Statement series cart, and an Ayre Px-5e pre.
In addition to specific item recommendations, I’m very interested in how to split the budget item wise. In other words more or less on player vs cart vs pre, I.e. Scout with Statement2 or Prime with Reference2 for example. Or go higher than 20-30% on the pre?
I lean towards spending the most on what’s least upgradeable.... """

why are you looking for?, I hope that to listen MUSIC in the best way you can do it no matter what: rigth? but if you " are looking for.." something different then I agree that is totally irrelevant for you.

@almarg  told you about the problem on impedances and you received a Herron answer that was unspecific about, not a precise and kowledge answer:

""  We have VTPH-2A customers that are using preamplifiers with 20k Ohms RCA single ended input impedances that are pleased with the sound. ....."""

that means almost nothing because you don't know the audio items in all those customers including how low goes the speakers vs your new ones.

"""  I researched at his site, and although much of the specifics is beyond my knowledge, I like his design approach.....................
@almarg Thanks for bringing the input impedance requirements of the VTPH-2A to my attention.

Would I be better off getting a different used pre that’s a better match to the Ax-7 for now?   """


Beyond your knowledge? I can see why the " debate " is irrelevant to you.

R.

Dear @professorsvsu:  """  But there's a reason some prefer the Mona Lisa over a photo from a smart phone. One represents soul and character while the other is an accurate digital representation.................................

makes music a dynamic, emotional experience - it's soul. All too often solid state equipment can measure up with specifications, but can't quite get it when it comes to putting a smile on your face or a tear in your eye """

As poetry, painting or sculpture MUSIC wake up different kind of human been emotions/feelings no matters that you or me listen it through an old Walkman device. 
The soul in MUSIC is something intrinsec to it and tubes or solid state audio items are totally out of that " soul ". Try to say that tubes has soul and SS did not is only a big misunderstood about.

Now we can read several bordering " stupid "  statements like:

"""  ss designs that sound harsh .................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

 in particular, brightness. so I find that a good tube phono section is easily better in this regard than most solid state;   """""

I think that statements like those are made by people that just did/do not attend to live events to often to listen at near field MUSIC.

I say that because when any one of us attends to listen live music at near field ( seat/position. )  either listen it to a  single instrument ( violin, horn, piano, battery,... ) or a small group or a big orchestra we are hearing precesisily some of those " forbidden " characteristics as: harsh, brigthness, aggresive, dynamic, powerful, rythm, tigth, definition, shinny, and the like that only live MUSIC has and SS is the only way to listen it at a home audio system.

Did you listened at normal SPL excecution a horn player playing at 2 m. from you or a piano or a violin or a cymbals or a drum or an arp or a triangle? if not then you have to is a must to understand where is the MUSIC.

Words as smoothness, ligth, musical, organic and the like does not exist in live music or SS only in through the fully degraded tube colorations.

 The same " color tube " you reffered in what you posted:

"""    and do tubes "color" sound? Yes and yes. """

A good SS designs puts you and puts all of us nearer and truer to the recording where the recording microphones where at near field position ( exactly as I explained when we are listening and seated at near field  in a live event. ). So why we want to hear something different on what's in the recording?  why can we like all that colored and degraded and full of everykind of distortions through tubes?  when live MUSIC is way different.

Many of you think and say are music lovers, truly? because through your posts almost all of you are showing something contrary to been " music lovers . That you like more to live " in and with the deceive only speaks about your AHEE training where SS and MUSIC were not part of that training.

If you don't like what you listen through SS audio systems then you don't like MUSIC or just are unaware of how live MUSIC sounds and I can tell you that sounds just glorious and way different of what you listen in your beloved home audio system.

As I said: tubes can't do it, period no matter what.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC REAL MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @bpoletti : """ I have not heard any better phono stage at any price. ""

that " paramount statement is bording stupidity if is not supported by facts .
I’m not saying you are stupid because you did not.

I answered that I heard the VTPH1 and 2 with different cartridges .

Now, I don’t know against how many and which phono phono stages, cartridges, tonearms and overall how those cartridges where surrounded by the other home audio systems and the comparison proccess/tests you followed that can gives a foundation to that " crazy " statement. Could you share and answer that?

By my side I have a self audio comparison whole proccess and deep training on it, either in my reference system and in other audiophiles systems. Btw, additional to those the main audio distributors/retailers in my place were and are my friends and I took hours at their places and in my own system testing their electronics and even speakers.

In no order my audio experiences with tube/SS units/electronics ( as I told you I was using tube technology for several yers. ) are with these electronic manufacturers:

boulder, Vitus, EAR, Lamm, Nagra, Parasound, Ayre, MBL, Music Reference/Berning, Air Tight, Atmasphere, Audio Research, C&J, Aesthetix, BAT, Audio Note, Levinson, Krell, SimsAudio, Pass, Sutherland, Halcro, Dartzeel, Einstein, Rogue, FM Acoustics, Manley, Cary, Classé, CAT , Doshi, Herron, Rowland, Crown, Mckintosh, Wavac, VTL, Chord, Linn, Moscode, Vac, YBA, Burmester, Threshold, Hovland, Denon, Luxman, Accuphase, Gryphon and many other that scape to my memory.

Always surrounded by first rate speakers, tonearms, cartridges or TTs ( from Rockport to VPi. From the Anna or Etna to the humble Shure. From 20K system to over 300K systems. from systems in the parlor to dedicated audio rooms ).

In the regards under dialogue between you and me certainly and for sure I know what I’m talking about even better that any tube manufacturer and with one advantage: I’m not biased to anything but MUSIC, I’m married with MUSIC .

Now, in any home audio system the MUSIC belongs to both frequency extremes mainly to the bass range and as better the system bass range and its " management as better the overall room/system quality level performance. Bass range and its " management " is the more important and critical issue in home room audio system.Period.

Following with that fact the only rigth way to handle the rigth bass range " management " when the system is using passive speakers is that those passive speakers can function as sattelite ones in a speaker system with those passive speakers added with two self powered subwoofers where the high pass filter stays at around 80hz. Obviously both self powered subs connected in true stereo fashion.

With out those subs ( at least two of them. ) any system develops way inferior quality performance against any similar system with the subs. It makes a true paramount differences for the better ( always. ) to use that subs/sattelite speaker system.

Well and I don’t want to repeat what in other threads I did it but only to say that no single tube, any, can handle the overall bass range with the quality level and aplomb that SS devices and that’s why today tubes is and produce a heavy degradation to any audio signal.

Some of you think that because the units you use are hybrid ones using FETs or whatever SS devices at the input high gain stage problem with tubes disppears when the signal coming from those FETs must pass through tubes in that phonolinepreamps and latter on through the amplifier tubes to the speakers and when that FETs audio signal pass through the first single tube the bass range gone to the trash. What’s the deal there? no other than manufacturers following taking your money taking advantage of each one ignorance levels due that all of us were trained ( me too. ) for that corrupted AHEE.

I’m fine with that because that AHEE can’t damages my audio life and MUSIC any more.

Now, problem with audio lovers is that all think that are music lovers too and perhaps are but certainly not on what are listening in their room/audio tube system.

Many of the tube lovers say that if instead of a tube item they change for SS then they just can’t " tolerate " what they are hearing and have to comeback at once with the tube unit.

That is not the way we need to experience the SS alternative. The way is to listen continuously for at least two months all electronics SS in their system and after that change one of those SS items for the tube unit and listen if after taking two months of been exposed to SS electronics and really live the SS experiences and understand it against live MUSIC if they can come back to tube. I’m sure no one can comeback to tubes because they will learn about.

@invictus, problem is that tube people are always willing to say tubes are superior but till today no one is willing to take that SS experiences I posted here and that I posted months and years ago where I’m sure bpolleti reads but never took action about as any one else not even the tube manufacturers.

So how is that all are willing to posts supporting tubes with no facts against it, no first hand today experiences in the more or less " long term/time "?

That’s the same with we analog lovers when some one as me tell us that digital is superior than the LP experience when some of these analog lovers did not listen to digital for many many years now ! ! !

That’s why I say: we don’t want to learn and that’s why we can’t grow up in the home MUSIC experiences. Good for you and fine with me.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

Dear @bpoletti : Of course that I know is a hybrid design, that's why I specified that I listened the VTHP-1 MC VERSION. Even that use SS at the input high gain stage the signal pass through tubes and this is the main subject:  signal pass through tubes.

"""   I have not heard any better phono stage at any price.  """ and that's why you are unaware of what I posted.

I don't know which all SS units you already tested and with what kind of surrounded audio items and really is not important because your statement speaks by its self. You are totally unaware of tubes degradation to the audio signal. You are very well trained by that corrupted AHEE.

Are you happy with tubes? just follow sticky with when I'm really enjoying in true and real today audio world the MUSIC that's in the LP recorded grooves with a lot lower degradation that what you are doing and this fact you can't change it till you disappears from your room/audio system each single tube in the audio signal.

Simple as that.

R.

Dear @bpoletti : Many years ago I heard the VTPH-1 MC version and latter on the VTPH paired with the Shelter 90X and latter that same Herron with the XV-1 by Dynavector.

I know very well both cartridges because I owned and even that the Herron sounds " so so "/good in reality can’t honor the true both cartridges quality level performance I knew and know it has.

The Herron is made at a price point but it has in the LOMC and MM cartridge signal tubes and tubes are not for audio any more, we have to remember that we are living in 2018 ! !.

I don’t have to repeat/analize what I’m sure you already read about in some other threads from my posts in that specific tube regards and how damage the audio signal and why damages it.

That many people are accustomed to tubes only says that: are accustomed to but in any way says is rigth because is totaly wrong to use tubes in audio signal home systems. No matters what.

That many persons like what is wrong does not converts it in the rigth way/rigth road to go.

A good SS design always ( and I mean it. ) performs truer to the recording, tubes can’t do it.

That you as other gentlemans are accustomed to and are unaware of the damages it produce means only that: that are unaware of those damages.

Yes, we all need to grow up learning into our each day by day audio experiences ( everykind of. ).

I remember you that for years I owned tubes till I learned till I took in count what in reality I was accustomed to listen with tube electronics. No comeback there at any price. I'm for MUSIC and its emotional envolve.


R.

Dear @jetson :  Learning time your time, and your call. Good luck.

R.

Dear @jetson : It's easy to " spend some money of other person "..


Your Ayre selection is just spot-on because as a phono stage we need not only a very low noise unit for LOMC cartridge but very important is the RIAA eq. deviation where the Ayre really excels:


https://www.ayre.com/p5xe.htm

We have to avoid any single source of bad influence to that LOMC cartridge and that's why is better to sty away from any unit with a single or more tubes. Tubes are not for audio no matter what.

Other advantage is that that Ayre unit you can paired in the short future with another great Ayre item the AX-5 Twenty :

https://www.ayre.com/ax5.htm

and for LOMC cartridges you can do better with these options. Here we have to remember that's the cartridge the one will pick up the recorded LP signal and it's here where we can invest the best we can:

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9206j-ortofon-mc-a90-cartridges

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis91i48-van-den-hul-colibri-xgp-gold-lw-new-latest-version-cartri...

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis91ic5-sumiko-pearwood-celebration-ii-mc-phono-cartridge-moving-...


Happy hunting.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.