Hi all, My WF spending restraints are going away so I’m going to upgrade my system. I primarily play CD, but also have an MMF-5 with Glass platter, Golding GX1022 cart going through a Clear Audio Nano to Ayre Ax-7e to Sig 2 Ce’s.
This year I’m going to Quatro CT’s and upgrading my vinyl pre and source side. Next year I’m upgrading my main pre and power amp.
I’m looking for help in picking a phono player pre and cart. My musical taste is pretty wide: female vocals, rock, blues, jazz; not much classical on vinyl. Think Amy Winehouse/Cold Specks/Pixies/Weezer/Jeff Beck/Johnny Winter/Winton Marsalis and Maynard Ferguson for you other old timers. LOL My budget is about $8-10k
Right now my main thoughts are VPI Prime Scout or Prime with Grado Statement series cart, and an Ayre Px-5e pre. In addition to specific item recommendations, I’m very interested in how to split the budget item wise. In other words more or less on player vs cart vs pre, I.e. Scout with Statement2 or Prime with Reference2 for example. Or go higher than 20-30% on the pre? I lean towards spending the most on what’s least upgradeable - sorry if that’s too general or obvious. Thanks much Jim
There are a LOT of potential combinations that would provide pleasing vinyl playback. I have no particular dog in this fight, but would suggest one possible combination that would work well for the music you enjoy. Perhaps consider a VPI Prime, an AT OC9/II and a Herron Audio VTPH-2a.
The Prime is a solid performer and sounds much better than its price tag. The OC9/II is a great performer, tracks like a champ and the image and soundstage are quite excellent. It has a lot of the qualities of very expensive cartridges without the refinement and sophistication. The Herron Audio VTPH-2a is probably as good as it gets. There is no point in considering an upgrade to the VTPH-2a. IMO, none exists. I have heard nothing better and it's been a solid performer in my system for years.
I know several users of this combination with VERY GOOD results.
Thanks. Interesting that you both suggested AT carts.
@oregonpapa ARC obviously makes great components, and I appreciate the suggestion, but I get Leary on used tubes. Should I? My reading also leads me to believe people in lots of forums rave about the ART-9. Thanks.
@bpoletti Seens like lots of folks love the Herron VTPH-2A too. Thanks.
Those would both leave me with room to get the VPI Prime, or maybe even the signature. Is the Signature worth the extra $2k over the Prime? I could be wrong but from reading the VPI site the difference seems to be mostly on the base and tonearm. In other words, looks like the same motor, platter and bearings. The pulleys only have a difference of 0.00015” tolerance. In other words, negligible to speed when you have a 300 RPM motor “geared” to 78 RPM. Thermal expansion of the Aluminum platter between 65 and 80 degrees would make a bigger difference. (Sorry - I’m an engineer lol). So I guess you’re primarily paying for the tonearm and base.
As an engineer, the tendency is to analyze everything to death. As an audiophile, the goal is to duplicate a live music performance in the home in the best way you can.
Tubes: Not to worry about "used" tubes. They last a long time in a phono stage. What I would do would be to buy a new tube set as soon as I bought my used ARC PH-8. Not expensive at all.
On the cartridge ... I recommended the ART-9 because I've been through many MC cartridges including the AT OC9 MK III. The ART-9 is the much better cartridge ... as it should be for twice the money. It has a slightly higher output at .05 as opposed to the .04 output of the OC-9. This makes the ART-9 an almost perfect match for the PH-8. The ART-9, like all AT cartridges, is an over-achiever, competing with cartridges in the 3k to 5k range, for under 1k.
I would agree with @oregonpapa on the cartridge selection, but not with the PH-8. The ART9 has a great reputation. I do not have ANY experience, but there are a lot of people that think it’s a great performer, particularly with your musical preferences. IMO, the PH-8 was "pretty good" in its day, but is bettered by a lot of phono stages since then. Again, IMO, the Herron Audio VTPH-2a stands alone at the top of the list. Just my opinion.
@jetson The plinth of the Prime Sig is a completely different material and construction than the basic Prime. As an engineer, keep in mind the tremendous amount of amplification of that tiny electrical signal coming from the cart. Not only will that signal be amplified, but every tiny resonance and bit of noise in the chain will be amplified as well and become part of the playback. Plinth construction and material are important.
Not meaning to sound preachy, but sometimes it’s important to focus on the details as well.
Another opinion on VPI tables in general....
The VPI feet do not seem to be very good. Many people prefer to place VPI tables on Stillpoint cones or Bear Claws and remove the VPI feet. There’s something about the rubber damping in the VPI feet that doesn’t work.
Sometimes the plinth can be overdamped (the VPI rubber feet?) and the signal can sound slightly dead with a loss of dynamics and timing. That has been the biggest complaint against VPI over the years. I have my Aries Extended on Stillpoint cones with an obvious improvement in performance. It turned a very good table into a great table. No problems from overdamped sound. Just my opinion. YMMV.
The VPI feet do not seem to be very good. Many people prefer to place VPI tables on Stillpoint cones or Bear Claws and remove the VPI feet.
True enough! I replaced the rubber inserts on my Classic 3 with Symposium inserts and added a Symposium Segue ISO platform for it to sit on. One of the best upgrades for the dollar I've ever made.
I'd be careful about impedance compatibility between the phono stage that you choose and your Ayre integrated amp. The Ax-7e's input impedance of 20K unbalanced and 40K (20K per phase) balanced is too low to be optimal with either the Herron or ARC phono stages that have been suggested. Or with many other tube-based phono stages, for that matter.
Also, +1 re the ART9, which I use in conjunction with a Herron VTPH-2.
I swapped out a few phono preamps recently: Zesto Andros to ARC PH6 to Whest PS.30RDT SE+ (the Whest was the keeper for me). These phonos all sounded vastly different and in my case I liked the clarity and lower noise of the Whest. One thing I learned was I needed a little more gain from my phono preamp than the KAB calculator recommended. Buying a phono with several gain settings to match the rest of your system might be a good idea with at least of couple of settings > 60 dB.
I would buy a Dr. Feickert Woodpecker turntable with Jelco tonearm, and look for a used Audio Research phono stage, maybe a PH-6 and a new AudioTechnica ART-9.
From the specs provided at arcdb.ws for both the PH-6 and the PH-8:
Output impedance:
200 ohms Unbalanced. Recommended load 50K-100K ohms and 100pF.
(10K ohms minimum and 2000pF maximum.)
From the manual for the Herron VTPH-2A:
We recommend that the VTPH-2A be used with a line stage having an input impedance of 50,000 ohms or higher for optimum performance.
All three of those phono stages provide only unbalanced outputs. The input impedance of the unbalanced inputs of the Ayre AX-7e is 20K, as I mentioned earlier.
Some strong recommendations made here--I like the setup @bpoletti has recommended, having run it myself with good results. The Prime/OC9MLII/Herron is a great combination. I would agree also with upgrading the VPI feet--I'm using HRX Mini Feet with the Symposium Prime/Classic inserts which do provide some additional isolation. I'd love to try the Stillpoints, which are likely a much better route, but those would break my bank.
Based on the comments from Al I would get an Ayre phono preamp instead of the Audio Research. You can get the Dr. Feickert, Ayre phono (used), and AT cartridge for about $10K.
Thanks all - you are a tremendous resource. @jperry Thanks for the suggestion. I was leaning VPI due to their Rep and the fact I live in Jersey. Let’s assume I’m going with the prime and ART9. On to the pre - and matching.
It looks like several of you guys are pretty fond of the Herron. I researched at his site, and although much of the specifics is beyond my knowledge, I like his design approach; particularly with the way he allows for loading adjustments. @almarg Thanks for bringing the input impedance requirements of the VTPH-2A to my attention. That the AX-7A doesn’t meet them should be a temporary problem as I plan on upgrading the amp section next year. How much would the mis-match affect the sound until then? Would I be better off getting a different used pre that’s a better match to the Ax-7 for now?
The most significant adverse consequence of running the Herron or the ARC phono stages that were mentioned into your Ayre amp is, IMO, likely to be weakness in the deep bass region. That is because the output impedance of those phono stages at deep bass frequencies undoubtedly rises to much higher values than the nominal spec, due to their use of a coupling capacitor at their outputs. (The impedance of a capacitor increases as frequency decreases).
Also, I see that the speakers you’re planning to purchase this year are spec’d at +/- 2 db down to 24 Hz, so their excellent deep bass extension is likely to make the issue more apparent than it would be with many other speakers.
I seem to recall a report here some time ago of reasonably good results running the Herron into 30K, although I don’t recall what speakers were being used. But I haven’t ever seen any reports about the Herron’s performance into an impedance as low as 20K. Also, I don’t know what the value (the number of microFarads) is of the coupling capacitor that is used in the design, which would help to quantify the issue.
I suspect that a phone call or email to Keith Herron would be the best way of determining if the issue is something you would want to live with until you obtain a new preamp. I’m sure he will give you a sincere and well-founded opinion.
A few months ago, btw, Keith did explicitly recommend to another member that his phono stage not be used in conjunction with a 10K load, citing the likelihood of compromised dynamics. See one of the posts by Uberwaltz dated 4-2-2018 in this thread:
@almarg Al, you are correct regarding the impedance mismatch. The OP may want to give Keith Herron a call to get his thoughts on mating the VTPH-2a to the Ayre. Sometimes it's OK, sometimes not. But I have always found Mr. Herron to be easy to talk to, honest and helpful.
@dodgealum Bear Claws are supposed to work pretty well, too. My Stillpoints came with the table so it wasn't painful.
@bpoletti Thanks also for the suggestion to call Keith Herron.
As to the feet, it looks like VPI knew they needed improvement there. From one review I found: ”The four isolation feet on the bottom of the Prime, sitting in Delrin corner posts, were inspired by Stillpoints according to Weisfeld, ” but I guess they didn’t quite hit the mark.
I sent an email to Keith Herron, his prompt reply regarding the VTPH-2A and Ayre Ax-7: "
We have VTPH-2A customers that are using preamplifiers with 20k Ohms RCA single ended input impedances that are pleased with the sound. I don't recommend going any lower than that. The 2 X 12AX7, 3 X 12AT7 version of the VTPH-2A has an output impedance of 400 Ohms so it will drive the Ayre preamplifier much better."
Sounds good! The version he recommended, which provides the lower of the two gain alternatives that are offered, is by far the version that is purchased most often. It should be suitable for all but the lowest output cartridges, certainly for those rated at 0.3 mv and I suspect for cartridges having output ratings significantly less than that.
My guess is that with the 20K load you'll be sacrificing a bit of the deep bass extension the Quatro CT is capable of, but since that would just be on an interim basis the VTPH-2A sounds like a plan!
Dear @jetson : It's easy to " spend some money of other person "..
Your Ayre selection is just spot-on because as a phono stage we need not only a very low noise unit for LOMC cartridge but very important is the RIAA eq. deviation where the Ayre really excels:
We have to avoid any single source of bad influence to that LOMC cartridge and that's why is better to sty away from any unit with a single or more tubes. Tubes are not for audio no matter what.
Other advantage is that that Ayre unit you can paired in the short future with another great Ayre item the AX-5 Twenty :
and for LOMC cartridges you can do better with these options. Here we have to remember that's the cartridge the one will pick up the recorded LP signal and it's here where we can invest the best we can:
@rauliruegas HA HA “It’s always easy to spend other people’s money” is one of my most favorite expressions, although it’s usually used when I’m talking about government or business.
Generalizations on SS vs tube aside, I get your points; that the P5-xe would match well with the current Ax-7e, and later an AX-5 Twenty, or VX & KX-5 Twenty pair if I were to stay with Ayre. As well as the point that the cart will make a bigger difference than the pre.
Thats is why it- the Ayre phono pre - and the Herron are the two on my short list.
Right now, although it would be a bit more initial cost, and despite the obvious synergy with other Ayre products, I’m leaning toward the Herron. This is because primarily because of its adjustability to different amps and carts, and because it’s well received by many here (some with Ayre gear), whose opinions I respect.
Unfortunately, getting a personal Px-5e to VTPH-2A comparison will be near impossible. Which, actually, is another reason I’m thinking Herron. If I go with Ayre again, because of the frequency that their components are resold, I could get a Px-5e, do a comparison, and if I decide to keep the Herron, resell the Ayre pre for the same price I just paid.
Dear @bpoletti : Many years ago I heard the VTPH-1 MC version and latter on the VTPH paired with the Shelter 90X and latter that same Herron with the XV-1 by Dynavector.
I know very well both cartridges because I owned and even that the Herron sounds " so so "/good in reality can’t honor the true both cartridges quality level performance I knew and know it has.
The Herron is made at a price point but it has in the LOMC and MM cartridge signal tubes and tubes are not for audio any more, we have to remember that we are living in 2018 ! !.
I don’t have to repeat/analize what I’m sure you already read about in some other threads from my posts in that specific tube regards and how damage the audio signal and why damages it.
That many people are accustomed to tubes only says that: are accustomed to but in any way says is rigth because is totaly wrong to use tubes in audio signal home systems. No matters what.
That many persons like what is wrong does not converts it in the rigth way/rigth road to go.
A good SS design always ( and I mean it. ) performs truer to the recording, tubes can’t do it.
That you as other gentlemans are accustomed to and are unaware of the damages it produce means only that: that are unaware of those damages.
Yes, we all need to grow up learning into our each day by day audio experiences ( everykind of. ).
I remember you that for years I owned tubes till I learned till I took in count what in reality I was accustomed to listen with tube electronics. No comeback there at any price. I'm for MUSIC and its emotional envolve.
@rauliruegas It's obvious from your latest comment that you don't have any clue about the design of the VTPH-2a. That's not my opinion, it is a reflection of facts. The Herron VTPH-2a is not a pure tube phono stage. And your statement "
A good SS design always ( and I mean it. ) performs truer to the recording, tubes can’t do it." is unfounded in any facts. And you can present no proof that supports your statement. Facts do not support your description of the VTPH-2a. Your hatred of Herron Audio equipment is hard to understand.
I would forward that opinion that the Herron Audio VTPH-2a is the best in the field. I have not heard any better phono stage at any price. The price point you suggest is a figment, a fabrication, in your own mind. Just because it isn't unaffordably expensive or have a 3 inch thick face plate and weigh 100 pounds does not mean it is cheap or limited in performance. That is your error.
Dear @bpoletti : Of course that I know is a hybrid design, that's why I specified that I listened the VTHP-1 MC VERSION. Even that use SS at the input high gain stage the signal pass through tubes and this is the main subject: signal pass through tubes.
"""
I have not heard any better phono stage at any price. """ and that's why you are unaware of what I posted.
I don't know which all SS units you already tested and with what kind of surrounded audio items and really is not important because your statement speaks by its self. You are totally unaware of tubes degradation to the audio signal. You are very well trained by that corrupted AHEE.
Are you happy with tubes? just follow sticky with when I'm really enjoying in true and real today audio world the MUSIC that's in the LP recorded grooves with a lot lower degradation that what you are doing and this fact you can't change it till you disappears from your room/audio system each single tube in the audio signal.
@rauliruegas Your earlier criticisms of the Herron VTPH-2a contradict your back-peddling comment. And your statement "
A good SS design always ( and I mean it. ) performs truer to the recording, tubes can’t do it." is not supported in fact.
Maybe the real flawed component is your credibility.
@invictus005 - I didn't know the medical team was able to restore your hearing. What a wonderful development for you. First time you can hear since birth!
Dear @bpoletti : """ I have not heard any better phono stage at any price. ""
that " paramount statement is bording stupidity if is not supported by facts . I’m not saying you are stupid because you did not.
I answered that I heard the VTPH1 and 2 with different cartridges .
Now, I don’t know against how many and which phono phono stages, cartridges, tonearms and overall how those cartridges where surrounded by the other home audio systems and the comparison proccess/tests you followed that can gives a foundation to that " crazy " statement. Could you share and answer that?
By my side I have a self audio comparison whole proccess and deep training on it, either in my reference system and in other audiophiles systems. Btw, additional to those the main audio distributors/retailers in my place were and are my friends and I took hours at their places and in my own system testing their electronics and even speakers.
In no order my audio experiences with tube/SS units/electronics ( as I told you I was using tube technology for several yers. ) are with these electronic manufacturers:
boulder, Vitus, EAR, Lamm, Nagra, Parasound, Ayre, MBL, Music Reference/Berning, Air Tight, Atmasphere, Audio Research, C&J, Aesthetix, BAT, Audio Note, Levinson, Krell, SimsAudio, Pass, Sutherland, Halcro, Dartzeel, Einstein, Rogue, FM Acoustics, Manley, Cary, Classé, CAT , Doshi, Herron, Rowland, Crown, Mckintosh, Wavac, VTL, Chord, Linn, Moscode, Vac, YBA, Burmester, Threshold, Hovland, Denon, Luxman, Accuphase, Gryphon and many other that scape to my memory.
Always surrounded by first rate speakers, tonearms, cartridges or TTs ( from Rockport to VPi. From the Anna or Etna to the humble Shure. From 20K system to over 300K systems. from systems in the parlor to dedicated audio rooms ).
In the regards under dialogue between you and me certainly and for sure I know what I’m talking about even better that any tube manufacturer and with one advantage: I’m not biased to anything but MUSIC, I’m married with MUSIC .
Now, in any home audio system the MUSIC belongs to both frequency extremes mainly to the bass range and as better the system bass range and its " management as better the overall room/system quality level performance. Bass range and its " management " is the more important and critical issue in home room audio system.Period.
Following with that fact the only rigth way to handle the rigth bass range " management " when the system is using passive speakers is that those passive speakers can function as sattelite ones in a speaker system with those passive speakers added with two self powered subwoofers where the high pass filter stays at around 80hz. Obviously both self powered subs connected in true stereo fashion.
With out those subs ( at least two of them. ) any system develops way inferior quality performance against any similar system with the subs. It makes a true paramount differences for the better ( always. ) to use that subs/sattelite speaker system.
Well and I don’t want to repeat what in other threads I did it but only to say that no single tube, any, can handle the overall bass range with the quality level and aplomb that SS devices and that’s why today tubes is and produce a heavy degradation to any audio signal.
Some of you think that because the units you use are hybrid ones using FETs or whatever SS devices at the input high gain stage problem with tubes disppears when the signal coming from those FETs must pass through tubes in that phonolinepreamps and latter on through the amplifier tubes to the speakers and when that FETs audio signal pass through the first single tube the bass range gone to the trash. What’s the deal there? no other than manufacturers following taking your money taking advantage of each one ignorance levels due that all of us were trained ( me too. ) for that corrupted AHEE.
I’m fine with that because that AHEE can’t damages my audio life and MUSIC any more.
Now, problem with audio lovers is that all think that are music lovers too and perhaps are but certainly not on what are listening in their room/audio tube system.
Many of the tube lovers say that if instead of a tube item they change for SS then they just can’t " tolerate " what they are hearing and have to comeback at once with the tube unit.
That is not the way we need to experience the SS alternative. The way is to listen continuously for at least two months all electronics SS in their system and after that change one of those SS items for the tube unit and listen if after taking two months of been exposed to SS electronics and really live the SS experiences and understand it against live MUSIC if they can come back to tube. I’m sure no one can comeback to tubes because they will learn about.
@invictus, problem is that tube people are always willing to say tubes are superior but till today no one is willing to take that SS experiences I posted here and that I posted months and years ago where I’m sure bpolleti reads but never took action about as any one else not even the tube manufacturers.
So how is that all are willing to posts supporting tubes with no facts against it, no first hand today experiences in the more or less " long term/time "?
That’s the same with we analog lovers when some one as me tell us that digital is superior than the LP experience when some of these analog lovers did not listen to digital for many many years now ! ! !
That’s why I say: we don’t want to learn and that’s why we can’t grow up in the home MUSIC experiences. Good for you and fine with me.
@rauliruegas I'll continue to enjoy the reproduction of phono I hear through the Herron Audio VTPH-2a. I have heard too many ss designs that sound harsh. I will leave you to listen to your favorite ss phono stage. Good luck.
Check out the Perreaux phono pre-amp, it sounds better than the parasound units that are made in china. I know because I heard them both & I'm now the pround owner of the Perreaux
Audiant VP3 phono stage.
I recently started a thread concerning the Herron VTPH-2A that I purchased and would like to interject my two cents again . I use an AT-ART9 cart and Avid Diva II SP TT with an SME 309 arm. I've listened to vinyl for more than 50 years and have never heard vinyl playback as good as my current set-up can produce. The VTPH-2A pulled everything together in an unbelievable way. Does it have tubes and do tubes "color" sound? Yes and yes. But there's a reason some prefer the Mona Lisa over a photo from a smart phone. One represents soul and character while the other is an accurate digital representation. The Herron is designed and built by master artists with genius level expertise of what makes music a dynamic, emotional experience - it's soul. All too often solid state equipment can measure up with specifications, but can't quite get it when it comes to putting a smile on your face or a tear in your eye. If you wanted to risk the VTPH-2A and a cart like the AT-ART9, I don't think you'd be disappointed and there would be enough left over in your budget for a good TT.
boulder, Vitus, EAR, Lamm, Nagra, Parasound, Ayre, MBL, Music
Reference/Berning, Air Tight, Atmasphere, Audio Research, C&J,
Aesthetix, BAT, Audio Note, Levinson, Krell, SimsAudio, Pass,
Sutherland, Halcro, Dartzeel, Einstein, Rogue, FM Acoustics, Manley,
Cary, Classé, CAT , Doshi, Herron, Rowland, Crown, Mckintosh, Wavac,
VTL, Chord, Linn, Moscode, Vac, YBA, Burmester, Threshold, Hovland,
Denon, Luxman, Accuphase, Gryphon and many other that scape to my
memory.
This statement is misleading. If Raul heard one of our preamps it certainly was not one made in the last ten years (and as you might expect, we've made improvements in that time, some of the most dramatic changes that affected the phono circuits only in the last three years). This causes me to put this list under suspicion as it strains credulity.
Tubes exist these days only for audio, and really for nothing else. That is what keeps the tube industry alive. To make a tube preamp get the same sort of noise floor as solid state, you have to do similar things that solid state designers do- many use differential circuits as they are lower noise; tube circuits can be built that way with similar benefit.
@jetson Well nobody else has said it, so if it's not too late, I will... I'd suggest giving more serious consideration to alternatives to a VPI. This is coming from someone who for a number of years owned a VPI TNT6HR(Basically the more discussed/reviewed HRX with the TNT plinth) and JMW12.7 arm, a combo of much higher performance than the VPIs you're considering and was happy with it at the time. My experience as leader of a local audio club (just a stone's throw from VPI!) let me listen to > a dozen VPIs including all variations of Classics and Primes in real world systems. In more cases than I'd care to detail, performance was mediocre. More than once users had mis-manufactured components with issues such as reversed internal wiring in mini DIN-to-RCA block. Others had speed variations that they didn't know were there until friends encouraged strobe testing. A number of users sold their VPIs and moved in varying directions. None ever regretted the change, nor moved back to VPI product. IMHO, day-to-day focus from Sheila & Harry were what led to the great reputation that VPI earned. Sheila was one helluva nice lady and passionate about getting things right for her customers. Harry is obviously a great engineer, and cut through much BS in the market(e.g. his stance on anti-skate on his arms). I don't know what involvement he has at this time, but anecdotes indicate that he is more-or-less in an advisory role and perhaps still doing some design. Other than a couple of longtime fanboys who usually jump in every thread with the same repeated comments(hello @Stringbean, lol), I don't get the sense that the majority of their large customer base with newer models is as thrilled as in the past. With your budget, you've got plenty of potential directions to go. If you land on a $2k phono stage, $1k cartridge & $1k for 2 cables, you've got about $6k for table and arm. You could consider for example: - Vintage refurbished direct drive tables like Technics SP10mk2(about $3-4k totally refurbished) tougher to find top 70s-80s tables from Kenwood or Pioneer) - New tables like the new DD Technics - If you prefer other belt drive tables: Sota(also made in USA), Acoustic Solid or Avid. Not to rain anyone's parade, but their are lots of options out their that offer reliable quality that give IMHO superior performance at the price points discussed. Cheers, Spencer
@sbank and @atmasphere Its not too late at all. I won’t be making my purchases for a month or more. The only items I’m petty convinced on are the Herron and the ART9. Thanks for the leads.
Not much. I would replace the platter pad, and if you want state of the art, the tone arm too (I use the Triplanar). Otherwise the ’table benefits from break in time and so seems to get better the more its used.
I’ve yet to hear a tube phono better solid state myself.
I have.
A lot depends on what you regard as important- IOW what’s ’better’. A lot of solid state guys cite noise as their number one concern, but once the noise floor is below that of the surface noise of the LP, the ear’s masking principle sees to it that you don’t hear it. But that might still be below -75db and that is doable with tubes. So that issue does not concern me- I don’t care if you lift the needle and can’t hear the phono noise unless you put your ear to the speaker drivers- when I’m listening to my stereo, the needle is on the record, not off of it :) To me its the musical presentation that counts.
The main thing for me is what distracts me from the music, and I think ticks and pops probably bother me most, followed closely by colorations, in particular, brightness. Both are easier to solve with tubes than solid state, so I find that a good tube phono section is easily better in this regard than most solid state; there are rare exceptions if the solid state designer was cognizant of the fact that the phono section contributes to ticks and pops if it has design flaws.
SOOOO many suggestions....... the only way to please yourself is to listen to this stuff and experience the result. In New Jersey, go to AudioConnection and spend some time with John Rutan.
Dear @professorsvsu: """
But there's a reason some prefer the Mona Lisa over a photo from a smart phone. One represents soul and character while the other is an accurate digital representation.................................
makes music a dynamic, emotional experience - it's soul. All too often solid state equipment can measure up with specifications, but can't quite get it when it comes to putting a smile on your face or a tear in your eye """
As poetry, painting or sculpture MUSIC wake up different kind of human been emotions/feelings no matters that you or me listen it through an old Walkman device. The soul in MUSIC is something intrinsec to it and tubes or solid state audio items are totally out of that " soul ". Try to say that tubes has soul and SS did not is only a big misunderstood about.
Now we can read several bordering " stupid " statements like:
"""
ss designs that sound harsh .................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
in particular, brightness. so I find that a good tube phono section is easily better in this regard than most solid state; """""
I think that statements like those are made by people that just did/do not attend to live events to often to listen at near field MUSIC.
I say that because when any one of us attends to listen live music at near field ( seat/position. ) either listen it to a single instrument ( violin, horn, piano, battery,... ) or a small group or a big orchestra we are hearing precesisily some of those " forbidden " characteristics as: harsh, brigthness, aggresive, dynamic, powerful, rythm, tigth, definition, shinny, and the like that only live MUSIC has and SS is the only way to listen it at a home audio system.
Did you listened at normal SPL excecution a horn player playing at 2 m. from you or a piano or a violin or a cymbals or a drum or an arp or a triangle? if not then you have to is a must to understand where is the MUSIC.
Words as smoothness, ligth, musical, organic and the like does not exist in live music or SS only in through the fully degraded tube colorations.
The same " color tube " you reffered in what you posted:
"""
and do tubes "color" sound? Yes and yes. """
A good SS designs puts you and puts all of us nearer and truer to the recording where the recording microphones where at near field position ( exactly as I explained when we are listening and seated at near field in a live event. ). So why we want to hear something different on what's in the recording? why can we like all that colored and degraded and full of everykind of distortions through tubes? when live MUSIC is way different.
Many of you think and say are music lovers, truly? because through your posts almost all of you are showing something contrary to been " music lovers . That you like more to live " in and with the deceive only speaks about your AHEE training where SS and MUSIC were not part of that training.
If you don't like what you listen through SS audio systems then you don't like MUSIC or just are unaware of how live MUSIC sounds and I can tell you that sounds just glorious and way different of what you listen in your beloved home audio system.
As I said: tubes can't do it, period no matter what.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC REAL MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R.
@atmasphere Thanks- Any suggestion on playter pad upgrade?
@stringreen I was just at John Rutan’s a couple of weeks ago, listening to the new Ayre EX-8 integrated. As far as TT’s go, he carries VPI, and Clear Audio, which is the reason I was considering a Prime TT. It seems difficult to find places where I can audition A/B comparisons on turntables. Never mind cartridges.
I actually like the idea of getting an older Technics or Garrard, but the realistic vs idealistic debate inside my brain leaves me leaning towards a new TT, set-up, calibrated, and delivered set up and ready to go.
@rauliruegas I’m certain you have an expert opinion to debate with others, yet at this point the debate of SS vs Tube phono pre-amps is irrelevant to my decision. I’d appreciate it if you’d take the discussion to a different thread or engage privately with those that wish to debate the point. Thanks Jim
Dear @jetson : All of us live in a free world and you and me are part of rthat world. Internet forums are part of that free world. Before what you call " debate " my last post in the thread said to you: " Good Luck ". Was other member and latter other ones whom started asking something " about ".
In the other side, in your last post you said: " is irrelevant to my decision " when in your thread posted why is relevant to your decision even if you don't like it that " debate " or that you just don't care:
""
I’m looking for help in picking a phono player pre and cart .
Right now my main thoughts are VPI Prime Scout or Prime with Grado Statement series cart, and an Ayre Px-5e pre. In addition to specific item recommendations, I’m very interested in how to split the budget item wise. In other words more or less on player vs cart vs pre, I.e. Scout with Statement2 or Prime with Reference2 for example. Or go higher than 20-30% on the pre? I lean towards spending the most on what’s least upgradeable.... """
why are you looking for?, I hope that to listen MUSIC in the best way you can do it no matter what: rigth? but if you " are looking for.." something different then I agree that is totally irrelevant for you.
@almarg told you about the problem on impedances and you received a Herron answer that was unspecific about, not a precise and kowledge answer:
""
We have VTPH-2A customers that are using preamplifiers with 20k Ohms RCA single ended input impedances that are pleased with the sound. ....."""
that means almost nothing because you don't know the audio items in all those customers including how low goes the speakers vs your new ones.
"""
I researched at his site, and although much of the specifics is beyond my knowledge, I like his design approach..................... @almarg Thanks for bringing the input impedance requirements of the VTPH-2A to my attention.
Would I be better off getting a different used pre that’s a better match to the Ax-7 for now? """
Beyond your knowledge? I can see why the " debate " is irrelevant to you.
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