Wondering about the most (cost) effective tweaks to improve my P2. Currently have a Goldring Elektra cartridge and feeds into a Creek OBH-8 phono stage and then into solid state preamp and amp. Speakers are Symphonic Line Legato. I would think that a new cartridge might provide biggest change but wonder what others would think. Considering the Rega Bias 2 or Elys 2 mostly for ease of installation and alignment as well as presumed synergy. Certainly I'm open to other suggestions. Other considerations would be a new sub-platter(the one from Argentina) or new mat. Should mention that I have the glass platter, white belt and thick felt mat. Don't really have a specific complaint about the current system except that I suspect it can sound better. Perhaps more full sound or better bass. Willing to spend up to $300 so not interested in suggestions to get a better TT. Thanks in advance. Jim
There is not much you can do to improve the sound of your P2 for $300.00
Not a big fan of Rega carts but the general consensus indicates that the Elys 2 would be the way to go and yes, installation and alignment would be a breeze.
Maybe an Ortofon 2M Red/Bellari VP130 for about $350.00 would be an "upgrade" but then again, it may NOT be at all.
Big fan of DV P-75/DV 10x5 but it will bring the price to at least $800.00 for the combo.
A cartridge will make the biggest single difference. Second the 2M Red or perhaps Blue; excellent values. Also worthwhile would be a good cartridge protractor and a large, strong bench magnifier. Pro-Ject makes a nice protractor that also has stroboscopic strips on the opposite side. Bench mags are available pretty much everywhere, but get one that is illuminated and has at least 5X magnification (not diopter) if possible.
Like Kiko, I'm also a Dynavector fan. A DV MR23RS in my Planar 2 kicked me into audiophile land. Worth every penny and then some. Something to strive for.
"There is not much you can do to improve the sound of your P2 for $300.00"
NOT TRUE,
JMG,Just change the bearing and sub platter system...This will make the table much quieter and will spin much more reliably. Lucky for you JMG, just go to Groovetracer.com and buy the sub platter upgrade for around $200-$250 and it comes with a new cubic zerconia ball bearing and sapphire thrust plate with steel spindle. Awesome upgrade. Your P2 has a great tone arm and your cartridge is good...the sub platter (plastic) and bearing are not (steel ball). This upgrade alone brings the table up a couple notches AND if you partner it with a good Isolation platform ( I use one from Mapleshade-$120.00) ,the P2 really shines. Once this is done you can think about changing cartridges.Happy upgrading!
With a non suspended table vibration is the evil enemy. My Rega P9 has made a solid improvement by replacing the stock feet with Foculpods. Everything is more relaxed and cleaner, for about $30 the risk is nil.
Try some different turntable mats.. I replaced my original felt mat with an Audioquest Sorbethane mat, this was back around 1991 and it was an immediate improvement.. I think the paper and cork mat from Ringmat... this is an audible improvement over the stock felt mat.
Nice system...you made some good choices. Like others and yourself have mentioned, the Goldie is the weakest link. I'm big Shure fan, so a vintage V series or the even the current 97 cart would be a nice upgrade. The 97 is on the mellow side so its not for every system. Sumiko blue point is also classic solid performer, as are Audio Technica, ortofon,etc. I am not familiar with Rega carts.
1. Remove the power cord from the table. 2. Move the table top another location. 3. Move a VPI Classic 3 to the position originally taken by the Rega. Make sure VPI table is level. 4. Attempt to plug the power cord into the VPI. If it doesn't fit, use the VPI power cord. 5. Relocate the cartridge from the Rega to the VPI. 6. Enjoy the upgrade modification.
7. Optional: List the Rega P2 for sale with the thousands of Linn tables being discarded for the same reason.
If you choose to upgrade the cartridge keep in mind that you should consider how well the load capacitance the cartridge would see in your setup matches the cartridge manufacturer's recommended range of load capacitance. Your phono stage has a rather high input capacitance of 220 pf. I would guess that the phono cable and turntable wiring adds roughly another 200 pf or so to that, bringing the total to the vicinity of 400 or 450 pf or thereabouts.
While that will be a suitable match for many MM cartridges, it is too high to be sonically optimal with many others. Including the Ortofons that have been mentioned (for which the recommended load capacitance range is 150 to 300 pf), and the Shure M97XE (for which the recommended load capacitance range is 200 to 300 pf). And I would be cautious about choosing any cartridge for which the manufacturer doesn't provide a load capacitance recommendation.
The manufacturer's recommendation for your present cartridge, btw, is 150 to 400 pf, which is a wider range than is usually specified. Just speculating, but perhaps Goldring's standards in deriving that spec are not as stringent as those of some of the other manufacturers.
Look for a used BSR turntable. The model does not matter, then update the cartridge from any model made by Radio Shack. I guarantee the sound will be remembered. This will set you back about $50 total
Jmg1949, for $300 I must agree that a better cartridge would be the best upgrade. I am sure you will find Als' post helpful. I would not spend much to improve the turntable proper until I felt the need to refurbish. I was born in 1949. Can’t help but believe allot of great “products” hit the marketplace in that year. Cheers!
Al, I knew when I sow your post here I was about to learn something. Given the roughly 200pF contribution of tonearm wire and cable, it might be possible that cartridge manufacturers take this into account when making preamp loading recommendations? I ask this because the Manufacture rec for the Blue Point No. 2 I own is 50-100pf. Just a thought induced by your post, as most do. Thanks.
Thanks, Mesch! I've seen numerous indications over the years that load capacitance recommendations for moving magnet cartridges are based on the total of all capacitances between the cartridge pins and the phono stage input (inclusive of the latter). Which would seem to make sense since the wiring capacitance can vary greatly depending on the particular cable type and its length. And if the turntable has a connector on the rear (which I believe the P2 does not have) it would of course be readily possible for the user to substitute cables and thereby vary the capacitance over a wide range. The 200 pf figure, btw, was just my rough guess in this particular situation, and substitution of a relatively short cable having particularly low capacitance per unit length (were that practical on the particular turntable) could easily cut that in half.
Also, I took a look at the brochure and the user manual for the Blue Point No. 2 at sumikoaudio.net and I didn't see any load capacitance recommendation indicated. But I can't recall ever seeing a recommendation as low as 50 to 100 pf for any other cartridge. Also, the BP2 is of course an HOMC rather than a MM, and while I don't have a good feel for the sensitivity of typical HOMC's to load capacitance, I suspect it is likely to be dissimilar to that of MM's.
Correction to my previous post: FWIW, I just noticed this somewhat ambiguous statement in the text of the manual for the Blue Point No. 2:
Note: If your receiver or pre-amp has capacitance loading capabilities, a Sumiko high output moving coil cartridges should be loaded with a value no higher than 200pf, and ideally below 100pf.
My guess is, again, that that refers to total capacitance including the wiring, but given the wording it's hard to say for sure.
Thanks, Marty (Viridian). It should be noted, though, that the DB Systems kit, or any other similar kit, can only add capacitance, not reduce it.
But we tend to focus on those things that we can measure, rather than those that we can't.
True enough, in many cases. And I personally have never experimented with intentionally mismatching load capacitance of MM's relative to the manufacturer's recommendation, to see how much difference it would make. But I see it this way: Audio is a pursuit in which many people concern themselves with unexplainable, unpredictable, and often dubious minutiae, even in some cases to the extent of things like which way a fuse is oriented. Given that, why introduce an explainable, predictable, and known inaccuracy into the system, notwithstanding the possibility that it **might** be minor in degree, or perhaps even subjectively preferable? And if it should happen to be subjectively preferable, chances are it is compensating for a problem elsewhere, which ideally and hopefully should be found and fixed rather than compensated for.
A Denon dl 110 is a good upgrade. I've seen a Canadian retailer still selling them for 129. I would also look at the subplatter upgrade from tangospinner....as well as the pully. That gets you under 300. Later on you can go with the tonearm rewire from brit audio.
Thanks Al for the response. I did not go back to the manual and went on recollection, which at my age is suspect. I am sure the ‘below 200pF’ is correct, not 100pF. Anyway, is seems logical that this low value rec would include that added by tonearm wire.
Thanks again for all of the responses. Picking a new cartridge is not nearly as straightforward as I would have thought. Capacitance matching certainly seems to throw a new wrinkle into this. More to think about.
WOW! leave it up to you guys to make things COMPLICATED! This post has gotten way out of control, IMO. Upgrade the REGA P2 bearing and sub platter, and put a Ortofon 2M blue. Now your in vinyl bliss...REGA is all about being SIMPLE to use!
Matt, Rega may be all about being simple to use. But the unusually high input capacitance of the OP's phono stage makes the use of that phono stage not so simple, if one places any faith in the load capacitance recommendations provided by the cartridge manufacturers.
I doubt that any of us are in a position to characterize the degree to which sonics are likely to be affected by the capacitance mismatch which is almost certain to occur with the 2M Blue (to a greater or lesser degree depending on the unknown capacitance of the phono cable and turntable wiring). But as I said earlier, "why introduce an explainable, predictable, and known inaccuracy into the system, notwithstanding the possibility that it **might** be minor in degree, or perhaps even subjectively preferable?"
Op has stated he has no real complaints with system...just "better sound"...and focused on the cart solution...so I don't feel the cap mismatch is a major issue in this circumstance...maybe in a higher end system...
Phasecorrect, the OP's present cartridge has a recommended load capacitance range of 150 to 400 pf. The 2M Blue that was suggested has a recommended load capacitance range of 150 to only 300 pf. My rough estimate of approximately how much load capacitance his equipment presents to whatever cartridge he uses was 400 to 450 pf.
... so I don't feel the cap mismatch is a major issue in this circumstance...maybe in a higher end system...
You may be right, or you may not be. I don't think any of us is in a position to say for sure. My point is why take a chance? There are lots of MM's and HOMC's out there for which the manufacturer recommends higher load capacitances than what is recommended for the 2M, as a perusal of the cartridge listings at NeedleDoctor.com and other sellers will show. The suggestion by Mesch to call them was a good one.
Mattmiller, 2M Blue and Reference sub-plater will cost you $500.00 plus when you factor in s/h expenses. I still think that the 2M Red/Bellari is a much better option around $350.00 which comes closer to Jmg's budget.
Sound advice!...no pun intended...I was thinking more of his current set up...but if swap catridges who knows...back to my no brainer solution..upgrade the stylus... That will improve sonics with little monkey business
Why go through these expensive contortions.....you may be satisfied with the increased definition, cleaner lows, and midrange improvements by just putting the table on Cardas blocks.
Thanks Marty (Viridian). I happen to be very familiar with that paper. While it can often be useful and informative, it also oversimplifies and overlooks a number of things.
Relevant to what is being discussed here, it conveys the impression that what will be optimal for a MM is reduction of load capacitance to negligible levels. The rationale being that minimization of load capacitance, in addition to maximizing bandwidth, will eliminate what might otherwise be a resonant peak in frequency response falling within or affecting the audible range of frequencies. What that doesn't take into account, however, are the effects on frequency response of the mechanical characteristics of the cartridge. Specifically, as I understand it, for MM's elimination of that resonant peak will typically result in significant frequency response rolloff in the upper treble region. While if some amount of resonant peaking is allowed that rolloff will be "filled in" by the resonant peak.
At the same time, though, as he indicates too much capacitance can also cause premature rolloff, while also causing the resonant peak to be excessively large and to occur at frequencies that are excessively low. Therefore both too little capacitance and too much capacitance will, for MM's, result in uneven frequency response and/or premature rolloff in the treble region. Which is why the cartridge manufacturers provide, or at least should provide, a recommended RANGE of load capacitance.
Thanks again for all of the thoughtful responses. At the risk of perpetuating a thread that seems to have taken on a life of it's own I'd like to be more specific about what's bothering me about my system. It's lack of solid bass. I don't have a test LP to give a precise frequency cut off but rather when compared to the same music on CD, Tidal or occaisonal high rez download. Also, my recall is that on my previous TT, an Ariston RD11s with Grace 707 and Shure cartridge, there was no shortage of low frequency info. Perhaps, looking back through rose colored glasses though. So in terms of improving bass performance, is one of the cartridges discussed above the way to go, or is this a more fundamental problem? I may end up getting a new phono stage in my Odyssey Tempest pre-amp in the next few months. I'm told this is the Symphonic Line stage with 150microfarad input capacitance.
Not sure when you last listened to your old system... But bass...lack of or excessive...is largely room /speaker dependent...also very recording dependent...I don't think the cart is the full culprit.
It's likely been over 10 years since my previous TT bit the dust. Certainly makes sense that multiple factors are responsible for good bass response. This is why I mentioned that when the same music is played from a digital source the bass is much more impressive with the same speakers, same amp, same room. Maybe it's the recordings. These are records I purchased in the 60s, 70s and 80s. Steve miller Band, Fleetwood Mac, Yes, CSN, the Band, etc. I don't own any of the remastered versions except American Beauty. Or was bass always kind of light in recordings back then. I don't rember it that way but it was quite a while ago. This will clearly be a trial and error process. Thanks, Jim (oh and should have picofarad not micro in my previous response.
Digital sources: My CD player is called Ah Tjoeb, which is a modded Marantz player I believe. Sold in the US through Upscale Audio. Also, stream Tidal via an old Macbook Pro then out through an Audioquest Dragonfly 2 to the preamp. Have downloaded a few files from HDTracks and playing via Audirvana but those files are pricey. I do like classic rock but actually own more classical records. JIm
From my experience...Rega is known more for PRAT...than for ultra deep bass...at least at the P2 price point... But bass is highly subjective...what others might find bass shy...you might find adequate. And the other way around.
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