I have a LP12 with new EkosSE arm with Skale weight. The TT has Keel chassis, Radikal power, AQ Leopard cable. I use a Krystal MC now. I'm asking what cartridges mate best with my setup from a compliance standpoint- weight mount, suspension table etc. From that list I'll try narrow down to good selections that mate to my phono/pre. Hopefully I will have a few that I can choose from to suit my listening tastes, knowing that compatibility isn't coloring what I hear. My budget limit is $10k. I have some thoughts already, but don't want to bias comments by naming them. So please help me to narrow my options down to the best candidates.
hi Papa -- a Kandid and the Urika phono stage would be pretty hard to argue with, synergy-wise. that said, i encourage you to compare the foregoing with a Dynavector XX2 and the Dyna SUP-200 step-up transformer, which you can run into your current preamp if it has a MM stage. (otherwise, Dyna’s own P75 phono would be perfect.)
There are also some VPI Avengers on US Audiomart I would take a look at depending on your interest. Always have been a VPI fan and their customer service is great. The Avenger allows any tonearm you'd ever want to use. Very user-friendly table.
Bart, I think you are making the mistake that a lot of people make with Linn gear. The TT is excellent, but unfortunately- and IMHO, some of the Linn cartridges and the Linn electronics are no where near as resolving as the LP12! The Linto and the Klyde are IME a major bottle neck to getting good sound. Doesn’t surprise me a bit that you are a little disappointed with the total SQ from your vinyl. Dump the Linto and the Klyde, upgrade the phono stage and cartridge and then get back to us.
I guess I am lucky. My LP12 is tremendously musical. My digital side, with a Bricasti M1 at its core, is also extremely musical. Perhaps this is why I've not changed gear in years.
I've had people that know analog (and I trust) tell me the 15,000 I have in my LP12 could have been spent with better results. Like Bart, I have a great digital side and I don't get the same emotion from my vinyl. And I think I should. Hence the thought to upgrade cartridge. All of the excellent advice has lead me rethink a little. I'm going to first demo new phono section with existing TT set up. If I can't get improvement I expect for the money, I'll try to demo a couple of turntables just to see what the difference is. I'm open to alternatives, even if it's selling the LP12. A wise man told me a few years back that "your first loss is your best loss".
If I were starting in vinyl from scratch and I had a $15,000 -$20,000 budget for vinyl playback gear I would seriously consider an SME 20 with a Series V arm. It's a little different with many of us LP 12 guys. I strongly suspect we wound up with $10,000 or more dollar in playback setup incrementally.
I have an LP12 that I bought about 18 months ago - and had most of it pretty much maxed out with upgrades - Radikal power supply, standard Ekos tone arm (not se) Keele suspension Circus bearings etc. I had it set up by a Linn dealer - and use a new Klyde cartridge - into a Linn Linto phono pre amp -
My prior tt was a very old Lenco L85 - but after building a very good digital system - and still having 1000 vinyl LP's gathering dust - I decided to invest in a decent turntable - and see if I could better my digital rig - I likely have about 15k tied up in the Linn system - which would have been closer to 20k if everything was new ( the basic LP 12 and the Linto were bought used )
I honestly feel this was a waste on my part - from what I've read above - I likely could have chosen a better turntable - but it may also speak to the quality of my digital setup - ML CLX with twin Descent i subs - modest room treatment - modwright dual mono line stage - mono block spectron amps and running springs power conditioner are common components to both analogue and digital systems - as well as good cables - the only difference on the digital side is a Lampizator Big7 Dac - with plenty of tube options on hand and a Lampizator Komputer using Roon or Daphile - when I play the same album - side by side as volume matched as possible - the digital version still sounds better to my ears -( and others that have listened with me ) I have a gut feeling that if I'd chosen a different turn table - this might be reversed But with 18,000 digital albums on a qnqp server - versus 1000 albums that don't get much attention ( because I'm not impressed with the difference) - vinyl does not get much play - it does not sound bad - just different - and perhaps it the tube imprint of the Dac on the digital side that has me enjoying the digital versions better
Were I in the OP's situation, I would go Kandid and call it a very good day. Sure, Linn is not the bleeding edge best, but it's quite good. Kandid and Ekos SE is frankly a no brainer in teems of a match.
I do note I have owned my LP12 since 1998 and really like it. Presently fitted with an Ekos Mk 2, Arkiv B, Lingo, Trampolin, Silver T cable and Kore subchassis. Were I to start from scratch, there are some excellent tables available these days. I was mighty impressed by the VPI Prime, and I think SME makes a great table and arm. I'm invested in Linn, my LP12 has been ultra reliable, and I enjoy the music I get out of it, so what the heck. I'm not particularly into changing gear- if I like it, I tend to keeps it for years.
Glennewdick, your opinions on the LP12 are interesting, but I do think that you have probably not heard a fully speced LP12 Klimax model. This TT can stand next to just about any table made and still be competitive. Some would say that the Garrard’s are hopelessly colored in reference to the LP12 Klimax....and I would be one of those people. Depends on what floats your boat... but please don’t mistake a top of the line LP12 Klimax with Radikal D, with some of the older LP12’s of yesteryear!
Probably April-May this year we started a lunch and ended around midnight. the Plinth was a custom job out of the UK very nice looking anyway and much more massive then the original.
I’m not trying to diss a great table here I just think to spend 10k on a cart for that table is well past the diminishing returns and the OP should invest in a table that will support that kind of investment. I know a lot of you really love the LP 12 and it rightly so has a place in history for starting the high end table market but I think there is limitations to how far it can be taken. a fully upgraded LP12 would probably sell for max $10-15k on a good day most you see in nice shape and well upgraded are in the $5k region so to put a $10k cart on one seems to me and most of my friends in our audio club not a good investment. now that said if you love your LP12 by all means go for it.
We feel if the OP sold his table and invested that money and his $10k into a used table he would get more for his money in the long run.
take a quick look on the sight there are quite a few tables in the 10-20k price range that are substantially better then the LP12 imo of course.
there are three that I would say are great tables but if the whole rhythum passe musicality thing isnt your thing then there are others.
Just trying to open the OP up to other options.. I.ve been down the many upgrade path my self and ended up at a old Garrard 301 in the end it just plays music not everyone’s cup of tea as I said there are many out there it is a buyers market.
I will for sure. The local Linn also sells Lyra and AR so I could ask them to set up an LP 12 w a Skala and AR phono pre. Ideally get it Demo'd on my system. What do think about used AR equipment? Certainly seems to have some availability in the used marketplace.
Papafrgog, you mention Lyra as a possibility. I'm using a Skala, table about the same as yours and an AR Ref 2SE phone pre. Great combination. Open top end, nice mids and strong control of the bass. No 'house sound'. Might be worthwhile to give a Lyra/AR combo a listen. Good Luck!
glennewdick, how long ago did you happen to listen to this 'maxed out' LP12?-- "Maxed out" meaning it had the latest Keel subchassis, the booplinth, Radikal D power supply and motor, Cirkus bearing, An Ekos SE tonearm, along with the same cartridges that were mounted on all of the other tables....just saying...:0) Or was it perhaps ---less than 'maxed out'!
On my LP12 with IttokLV2 my most favorite cart was the Shinon Red Boron. some compared it to the Koetsu sound.I had mine mounted on a low mass wall mount, with a corian base on spikes. As the Shinon is no longer available, I would be happy with a Koetsu. Or go nuts and get a Soundsmith Strain gauge ! works well in the Ittok :)
To be honest I don't have a list of everything that was done to the LP12 but I was told by the owner it was pretty much maxed out for upgrades. the rest of my friends system is Nagra PL L pre amp. driving the 6 Quad mono blocks all have been fully upgraded and rebuilt removing the silly quad cabling system. The work was done by a local friend who builds $25k SET amps and the quads sound very good indeed. the Panels have all be rebuilt and are inside a custom bamboo frame one on top of the other. the whole system is in a dedicated audio room built specifically built for his system with a sub floor for isolation and wiring. I have to say his system is very transparent, very wide and deep sound stage ( best I've ever heard) and fill that room totally. even the base is great with 6 panels. i'll add a couple pictures I took of his place to me profile if you care to look, he's got 15000 records on the walls lol that's what blows me away lol. anyway i'm not saying the LP12 wasn't good sounding just not up to what the others had to offer in musicality drive and toe taping pleasure.
Everyone, the suggestions are excellent. To address some specifically: 1. Vibration/ footfall- a HUGE problem I discussed in previous posting. Resolved by ripping out floor under equipment & pouring 12'x 8' x 5 deep concrete slab. Ran separate dedicated 20a supply circuits with 8' deep copper ground. Equip rack is Critical Mass Soto Vocce w black diamond iso shelves. Noise floor & vibrations pretty well handled now. 2. All cabling is Transparent Reference or RefXL. The AQ Leopard TA cable is stiffer than the Linn cable, but I was careful to install to allow movement. The SQ improved so much I'm not going back to the original. 3. Great point about upgrading phono section over cartridge w limited life. In fact I can easily audition a few phono sections in my price range to see if I get the improvements I'm hoping for. I want more resolution or detail than I currently have, particularly in the upper midrange. Maybe even more analytical, if I could actually hear an example of what that is. I'd like a little more extension in the highs. Of course everyone wants lower noise floor, speed & broader soundstage. 4. Having hybrid system with a full lush sound now, going to a SS phono stage might be a option. Any thoughts on Merrill Jens, T+A, vs Lamm, Zesto or Aesthetix Rhea ? This change might as impactful as going to a Lyra Etna or DV1-S, which are my first choices for a cartridge upgrade.
I honestly appreciate you the helpful and thought provoking responses. For the other responses, go f yourself. Haha.
glennewdick, the system that you heard the 'fully decked' out LP12 is an interesting one....please do tell us what the 'fully decked' out LP12 consisted of? Hate to stir the pot here also, but I think one could safely say that a Quad 57 system driven by 6 Quad mono amps would be in of itself a little.... colored. I like the sound of the 57's--a lot, but the Quad mono amps were not the most 'resolving' IMHO, LOL.
I have to agree with the first poster veeyat. I’ve heard a fully decked out lp12, garrard 301, thorns All in custom plinths side by side in a friends system. All with very good arms and carts. All playing through a nagra pre driving 6 quad mono amps driving 6 quad (3 stack) else 57s. And to be frank the Lin just can’t compete with the garrard and thorns. Also on hand was a tricked out VIP with an air bearing arm that’s was lovely as well. I think your best bet is to sell the linn and move on. Hate to stir the pot here but. There is much Better out there for your money specially used. I build a garrard 301 as well after hearing his set up ditching a tricked out oracle Delphi mk 4 and couldn’t be happier
@papafrgog I have set up many Linns with the Ekos tonearm - here are my suggestions
Invest in a wall shelf - this will lower the noise floor of your Linn over any floor mounted rack.
I would question your use of the Audioquest Leopard tonearm cable. To me it looks too stiff for the Linn suspension to operate optimally.
As far as cartridges go, the Ekos is quite versatile - I have set up many Koetsus ( including the stone bodied ), Decca, Van den Hul, Dynavector and Linn successfully to name a few. The only range I would avoid would be the Clearaudio’s. Given that you like rock the Koetsu’s may be a bit loose in the bottom end. Look at the reviews, your phono gain and system characteristics to find optimal match. If you don’t have enough gain you can easily loose dynamics.
Dynavector, Lyra, Transfig all work well on the Ekos ...It's a matter of what signature sound you are looking for. I am a firm believer in spending the $$ on a great phono stage and a great interconnect rather than on a cartridge which wears out. As you are a Skale user, I recommend you look into Tiger Paw's Tranquility- very significant upgrade for relatively small investment. As with all things LP12, a good technician is paramount to set up the deck properly. Seek one out if you are not very familiar with how the LP12 is assembled- this will make the biggest difference,imo. The Tranquility is not a subtle change.... A really good interconnect from your phono pre to your preamp will also make a huge difference at the level of your deck- I use Chord Music and have been very happy with how little they do :) ATB, Mark
Thanks Davey. I felt like mating to the arm was my first step- weight etc. I know dynavector XV 1-T/S supposely work well, as do The Delos, Skala,Etna etc. I was hoping someone could expand that list a little. Koetsu ? AirTight? Clear audio? As I said in OP, if I have the best pairing with the arm, then I can use that list as a good starting for compatibility w/ my phono stage. Then from those, I can listen to them individually (hopefully). If the Better answer is upgrading my phono pre section, & sticking with my existing cartridge, I'd consider it. I'm trying to get the best source component and then work outward.
As usual, we have LP12 naysayers who have never heard a fully decked out version. The Ekos SE ( while perhaps NOT the most resolving of arms) is a classic arm for the TT and is best suited for it weight wise. The arm can easily support the likes of the Etna and others...even heavy carts like a Benz LPSMR. The main criteria is how much noise you are going to get through your Janus Eclipse....and that has to do with the carts output, plain and simple. I would go with the Etna and call it a day.
Just back to first principles: I would match any cartridge, no matter what type, to its tonearm, without much regard for which table the two are mated with. The only limitation with a spring-suspended chassis like the Linn's would be the weight of the tonearm and whether that constrains the choice of tonearm to go with the cartridge you may have in mind. I am no fan of Linn LP12, but I am not going to tell you to scrap it, if you like it. (EMT 927s are not readily available items, and only a few shops in the world seem to know how to restore/rebuild them properly; by all accounts, they are as finicky to get right as is a Linn LP12.)
In other words, I guess I find myself agreeing with Clearthink and Nandric.
Thanks. I have considered scrapping the LP12 and moving on. I drank the Linn Kool Aid and I'm still trying to improve it. I hate losing money on the rig. For you other guys, maybe I didn't phrase my question perfectly enough for you. The first thing I mentioned was the arm and I know that's what the cartridge needs to mate with. I listed the rest of the table because I knew other Linn owners would say first upgrade other parts of the TT before spending $ on a new cartridge. So with that clarified, do you have a thought on cartridge or was this just a poke at my poor grammar? i have an Aesthetix Janus Eclipse pre w phono and the regular Etna is a better match.
''Best cart for a turntablé'' make no sense. The question should be the best cart for x tonearm and y phono-pre."
This is correct the problem here is that there are now many newcomers to the world of vinyl used in Music Reproduction Systems and they don't understand the intricacies of the interactions among the various component parts used in vinyl playback. More and more I see comments here that reveal the level of ignorance and while some here are willing to learn there are others that seem to be a hopeless case especially the ones who use the wrong terms yet insist that they know what they are talking about but thank you nandric for correcting this one misconception!
There are a couple of great cartridges that come to mind with that budget. It will depend on how much output your phono stage is comfortable with...if it can sustain very low output, then the new Etna SL and the new Proteus with Diamond cantilever come to mind. If higher output is required, then look at the regular Lyra Etna or maybe one of the higher output Koetsu's.
Well, the Kandid would be the logical choice . You did not mention which phono pre you are using? If you already have the Radikal, the Urika would provide you with a fully integrated SE deck. The synergy with the Urika and the Kandid allows them to punch way above their price point,imo. I run two LP12's similar to your spec however with Naim Aro arms. One deck has the Kandid/Urika and the other has a DV Xv1-s/Whest Titan Pro. They both are very engaging and musical. There are some other things to consider before spending 10K on a new cartridge imo- PM me if you are interested in a dialogue ... ATB, Mark
Take the 10k and another table. There are so many more dynamic tables available, both vintage and new.
I recently restored an EMT 927, which leaves me speechless every time I listen to it. It's nearly 60 years old and is absolutely the finest table I've ever heard. I'm using a SME 3012 and a 1966 Denon 103.
I have also restored a Garrad 301 and use a SME 3009 ( series one) tone arm and it likewise is outstanding.
Last, my favorite is the humble Dual 1229 with a Grace 747. What a sleeper this table is. Wow!
I spent a decade with a Linn (don't get me started ). (Recently sold the Linn set up gig to a fellow agon member. Thank you Alan!)
Used Micros, Walkers, Thorens, EMT's, Clearaudio, SOTA's, VPI's, can all be had is superb condition for 10k or less. Much less. (Okay, you might need to add a little to get the Walker, but what a table!)
If you love the Linn, you can get excellent results but it's a great deal of work. I know many that love them, but personally the Linn sound just wasn't for me.
Take your Krystal MC cartridge and go listen to some turntables. You might be surprised, because that is an excellent sounding cartridge and on the right table is a keeper!
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