"...equipment that is less than 4 months old not even getting a look in at 40% of new."
It makes me wonder if such equipment was "overpriced" when new, but that is another topic for another thread.
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Typical summer lull.....seen pretty much the same thing for the past 20 years. However, I wouldn't argue if somebody showed numbers indicating a general overall down trend based on many of the folks here having matured their systems and less younger people picking up the slack at the lower price points. I suspect overall volume is down although sales in dollars may not be down much since prices in general seem higher than they were 10 years ago. It would be fun to see Audiogon post metrics such as numbers of sales, average dollars per sale, and overall trading volume in dollars. |
60% does seem like a huge discount (for a few months old item), but if nobody wants to buy it, it is too expensive for some reason. If it were something I wanted, I would jump on it for sure, but 60% off of something I am not desperate for is just 40% of wasted money no matter how fantastic the item is. I think people see it that way. |
Uberwaltz, it is not a pointless thread if it helps some understand the realities of the current market. The 'give to charity" is always a nice option. They will of course usually turn it over at the fast sale market price. (And an occasional lucky audiophile will benefit along with the charity) Occasionally a group home, community service for the aged or arts oriented charity might use equipment as is. |
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Well, I just bought a used tube preamp and suffice to say after buying and selling on here since 03’ I have to question why I even bought now because considering what is going on with the attention needed for this house I bought back in April I really have no business buying for now. Sooooo--- Its the definition of a compulsion buy due to stress factors. Possibly I can enjoy the preamp being I get to use some of my favorite vintage 6sn7 Russian Melz and the Bugle Boy 5ar4--- whatever it takes to let me have a bit of toy fun.. I need to sell a bit and this thread is a good heads up on what to expect. I bought the Modwright off of US Audio Mart and not here. Never thought I would do business anywhere else but here but times change. |
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Well, I just bought a used tube preamp and suffice to say after buying and selling on here since 03' I have to question why I even bought now because considering what is going on with the attention needed for this house I bought back in April I really have no business buying for now. Sooooo--- Its the definition of a compulsion buy due to stress factors. Possibly I can enjoy the preamp being I get to use some of my favorite vintage 6sn7 Russian Melz and the Bugle Boy 5ar4--- whatever it takes to let me have a bit of toy fun.. I need to sell a bit and this thread is a good heads up on what to expect. I bought the Modwright off of US Audio Mart and not here. Never thought I would do business anywhere else but here but times change. |
An Audiogon buyer may not be exactly a Stereophile reader, but there must be some similarity. For whatever it is worth, 71% of Stereophile readers are planning to purchase audio equipment within next 12 months. They are planning to spend an average of $2400 on those purchases. $2400 really does not get you very far on Audiogon listings. No wonder sales are slow. http://www.avtechmediausa.com/mediakit.stph.pdf |
The new listing format if FUBAR! There is little distinction between a plain Jane Ad and one that a seller pays for all the frills...So for that reason I'm out. Not to mention the search engine they incorporated is ridiculous...That little faded out picture is childish and sophomoric. I tried to find GoldenEar Speakers and ended up in Golden records. And last but not least I recently sold an item to someone who clearly damaged it during set up (Fully packed and insured by FedEx) and AGon decided to give him a 100% refund (based on his good faith word) and DID NOT REQUIRE him to send them back...Soooo he gets free speakers and a 100% refund. I know that part is a tad off topic but the reason I brought it up is I buy more then I sell here on AGon and I am not doing either right now because of the above mentioned issues. |
Aolmrd, Yes certainly the lovely ladies with the cover art from Pink Floyds Albums painted on their backs are great attention getters. In this thread a few people has asked to buy the picture which I have framed hanging above my turntables. As mention this is readily available as a raw poster here https://www.abposters.com/posters/pink-floyd-back-catalogue-v157?gclid=Cj0KCQjwnZXbBRC8ARIsABEYg6C6E... There is also a article about how this painting came to be here https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/outtakes-storm-thorgerson-designer-on-pink-floyds-back-cata... I do think the price used as an attention getter too - has impact on the number of clicks the ad has garnered - however so far no-one has offered a reasonable price for any of the preamps. Im running a similar type ad for a CDTransport/DAC combo with a MSRP of $16K this one has not received as many clicks - possibly because of the Artwork used as the attention getter and also I believe Transports are clearly out of favor these days as most people stream. This ad has received 3 offers so far one for $450, which was possibly just to be a smart ass back at me, one for $1000 and then one that was half serious at $3000 which is half of what I'd be willing to let it go for. Good Listening Peter |
The Audiophile world is alive and well, at the same time the HEA world is declining (dying) fast. No surprise! What is a surprise though is how long the over priced market was able to hang in there, new and used. The decline actually started back in the mid 90's but the used market boom kept things going for the audio closet collectors. Keep in mind there's a difference between a high price trophy collector and an audiophile listener. What you don't see a lot of on these types of sites and forums are the hundreds of thousands who gave up the revolving door chase years ago as they settled into their listening enjoyment and canceled their membership in the amp of the month club (some would say amp of the month scam). A while ago there was a thread talking about the long lists of owned equipment members had over a period of time. Some of the lists were viewed as a badge of honor if you went through a gazillion brands and or models. But the ones that I found the most interesting were the lists where you could see a path of successful listening instead of the guy who changes out his products before his caps, resistors and other parts had enough time on them to even break a sweat. You know, you see many guys in HEA that say how long they've been doing this audio trading, never settling in to "their" sound, never truly even understanding stereo. If I was part of the next generation of Audiophile you wouldn't catch me taking advice from someone who has been doing this forever and still can't find their happy place. I don't see the next generation of listeners biting of the same apple. Thank God! mg www.michaelgreenaudio.net |
this is a Buyers market without buyers Hi- End Audio market is not working, and things will shrink more and more There are no new audiophiles. Old audiophiles have enough gears that cost a lot, and nobody want to buy from them So, who will want or needs to buy more gears There is no need for those funny prices gears. The issue of high prices kills the market Hight prices means low quantities- Low numbers of new gears mean high prices- that is a general economic fact If you had paid a lot for your gear-you are going to loss a lot when you sale it and for what? to buy a new one with high price to loss a lot again when you will sale it ...... So- the high prices= low new sales numbers killed the market |
These two posts above combined easily make an explanation for half of the used market, or market altogether, troubles. Add other distractions (computers, phones, etc.) and who is left to buy an amplifier that costs, used, as much as a quarter of an average USA family income? Ok, that may be exaggeration, but prices of new, and consequentially used, equipment are repelling to anybody but die-hards. The part to emphasize from the posts above is that there may be lots of people (maybe really hundreds of thousands) out there who have decent systems, but have no interest in carrying around new speakers and amplifiers bi-monthly, and probably losing money while doing it. They settle with what they have, sometimes even quite expensive, and live with it for 15 years. They go through 4-5 amplifiers in life and do not feel they have missed much. The crowd that changes things often, chasing some special sound, must be very small. If for no other reason, then because college tuition is going up, it seems like, daily. |
Ohala, I am not speculator. I would like to have equipment as a store of value as much as possible so I can have flexibility to try different models. While its not a sellers market, it is also not much of buyer’s market, in my opinion. Prices are not consistent and buying certain makes and models like catching a falling knife, to steal a market analyst phrase. While not the root cause the used market rapidly declined after Audiogon switched its business model. In the days where ads cost a few dollars many models were continuously being traded and prices were better known. |
I dont know if AG's change of business model has anything to do with, possibly some. I know that I disappeared for a while after they changed the site but returned after negotiating a better contract with them. USAM is a much better deal as a seller but the site does not get near as much traction as this one - wonder why - its quite equal to the good old Audiogon we all seem to miss. To comment to my above post I have changed the main Image in the CD Transport / DAC listing and Im running a banner on it - from previous observations the lovely Monique is quite good at getting peoples attention. A while ago I ran two banners for two almost identical items, one had Monique as the picture the other a very cool looking turntable, the results were as follows. Monique got 335 ad clicks on 20626 views, my GrooveMaster Vintage Direct got only 70 ad clicks on 18195 views. The Painting is by Merryl Jaye, she also paints musicians which some folks use as decorations in their listening rooms - I have 4 of them. More information here http://www.merryljaye.com Good Listening Peter |
It seems that many are dismayed, for lack of better description, that equipment loses value so fast. That is understandable to some extent. Tens of percent in a very short time may be hard to swallow. However, for most, this is a hobby. Unless you are in this to make money, investing for a great return. Hobbies are just like this. Waste of time and money. Hobbies give you satisfaction in some other way and you pay for it by buying stamps, amplifiers, paintings, or simply by spending your time doing macrame. If we think of this as a hobby, we should accept that we lose money and that is all. If we cannot sustain it without getting frustrated with our purchases losing value, we have picked wrong hobby. That all has not much to do with the title of this thread, but with some sentiment voiced in it. |
I have gone on record stating many times in recent years that after purchasing my dream integrated amp, speakers and CDP that I was DONE with the upgrade bug. DONE ! Famous last words. Just added an Equitech Son of Q and a new CDP to the main rig in the past 2 months. But I didn't buy either of those units here but it was due to timing and availability. I don't want to think about how many times I've raided my savings account and MM fund for 'discretionary' audio purchases. I'm sure I'll be wondering where all that $$$ went when I retire. Oh well. YOLO |
Back in the day..... In the 1990s and 2000s we could buy and try used gear and then sell what didn't work out for about the same money we paid for it. A lot of used equipment changed hands in those days and it was certainly a fun way to try new stuff without much risk. In the last 10 years, the ability to quickly sell used gear for anything close to what was paid has diminished. In most cases, you can either sell it fast at a significantly lower price or let it sit for awhile to get a better price. This is what a buyer's market looks like and it really should not be a surprise. Look at it this way. How many new amplifier models has Pass come out with in the past 10 years? Not to pick on Pass, but this has happened throughout the industry where manufacturers continually try to both upgrade their line-ups and generate interest with new models so there is simply more and better gear available. On top of that, the digital industry has exploded with better and better sounding gear coming out almost monthly. As a result, the market is flooded with fairly high quality used and new gear that is available to an audience that most here believe is diminishing. I suspect the viewpoint that there are less buyers is mostly true because some of the more active "audiophiles" around here have matured their systems to the point where they don't need or want further upgrades, others have "retired" from the hobby or at least downsized due to age. The infatuation with great sounding home audio we grew up with in the 60's and 70's has given way to a generation that is more interested in whatever can be played from a cell phone or thumb drive and listened to through ear buds. Not all of the younger folks look at things like that but it is certainly a viable, less expensive, and more portable way to enjoy music than spending a lot on a large home audio system. In addition, with the retail model moving away from brick and mortar, and towards on-line sales, and the savvy sellers offering trial periods or 30-day returns, it is easier than ever to audition new models with the only risk being restocking and return shipping fees. The times have changed. In summary, I believe folks will continue to be interested in high-end audio, and that internet sales of used gear will continue, but we have ridden the big wave. The sky is not falling but the economy of more available gear and less buyers is our new reality. Just my take on things. |
This thread made me reflect on the generation gap. When I was in high school and college in the 1970's, music and audio was the focal point of a lot of social interaction. My friends and I spent countless hours listening to the latest albums by Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull, etc., smoking joints, talking to friends while listening . . . We always gravitated to the friend who had the best listening room and stereo. When I could afford some "good" equipment, which I recall were Phase Linear 3000 separates and Epicure Trilogy speakers, my place in college was a social center. Picking albums to listen to was part of the social "scene." HEA was something I started to chase. Music as a relaxing time out has been with me for 50 years. I strive to get the sound that reproduces being "there." My stepson is 28. His age group was raised on iPhones and iPods and the isolation that focusing on one's phone 24/7 brings. He likes coming over and getting turned on to the "old school" rock in my music room. He and his buddies still listen to music when they are together (I guess EDM counts as music), but they are perfectly content to use a bluetooth speaker and play their mixes off of their iPhones. Techno, dubstep, EDM does not seem to engender the appreciation of "being there," perhaps because you are never "there." It is manufactured electronically and played back through a laptop or DJ electronic setup. Do they really look forward to getting together and listening to the latest track by Steve Aoki? I try to instill in him an appreciation for sound quality, and just gave him his first somewhat real sound system, a 5.1 setup by KEF. We'll see where that leads. Since the early days, AudioGon always allowed me to reach equipment well beyond my pay grade, even as my pay grade adjusted upwards. Perhaps the lack of demand for "silly" priced equipment is due to the lack of new blood and insufficient demand for it by those that know or think they know the difference between one $8,000 preamp and another. Or perhaps there is some recognition that paying $5K for a set of interconnects doesn't sound $4500 better than $500 interconnects. The law of diminishing returns certainly makes me think twice about blowing big bucks for a 10% (or less) improvement. But it is sad to think that HEA is a dying hobby, that is dying with us. |
moto_man, Do not get disappointed if your attempt to instill appreciation for better sound does not work out to be all that you hoped for. I did something similar, even downgraded along the way to make it simpler, and the outcome has been...iPhone speakers. With a little luck, your stepson may appreciate the sound of movies through his new set-up. Maybe you are more successful, but I am afraid... |
@glupson, I take it all in stride. Lead a horse to water but can't make him drink. My stepson seemingly appreciates my HT setup, and definitely loved to hear some of my favorites, like Jimi Hendrix' Electric Ladyland, on my music system, so I remain optimistic! What are kids of his generation willing to blow on HEA . . .? Remains to be seen. |
moto_man, From what I can see, kids ten years younger of his generation are not willing to spend anything on some audio equipment. Not even when given to them and installed in their room. No real interest there. They will not think twice about spending $1000 on a phone, though. This idea of "listening" to music is probably just some little short notch in the history. How long did it even last? Fifty years, maybe a little more? One generation or, at most, two. I am not talking all reproduction of music, but this idea of "finer" reproduction, whatever we decide to call it (hi-fi, HEA, anything else). As you said, it is dying with us. If I may ask, how did you pick your moto_man name? |
GSM There should be a place in your "order page" where you can mark the listing as paid - this should allow you both to leave FB. Any one tried the new Superphonica Site looks like an alternative to AG, they charge only a 1% selling fee and listings are free otherwise - funny part is that its showing up on Audiogon as a side ad. Good Listening Peter |
geoffkait, At this time of the year, there are many short-term-thinking heroes cutting through on the left. It really gets scary. Not to mention that bears are awake. Otherwise, as far as turning the steering wheel goes, it is as close as you will ever get to the bumper cars. It is interesting, for sure. Just Google "The Dragon", there are a few websites and there must be lots of pictures on them although they do not make you realize how unusual it is. |
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@glupson, my Siamse cat that I had for 19 years through college and many years after was named Moto or motoman. Now that cat liked HEA! He'd sit on my lap whenever I put the stereo on and never messed with it. I also am into motorcycles -- I ride a custom built Harley with Focal woofers and tweeters built in. :) So moto_man seemed appropriate! |
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…...I would generally agree. The sale of some lower priced ticket items like power cords or lower end priced electronics will move here. Higher priced more boutique items as I have watched here on a daily basis no longer move as fast here on Audiogon ...….unless, unless you price it so far below the normal price in which somebody picks it up and then flips it in the Asian Pacific marketplace. Audiogon is also partially to blame with this new format …..I can't find a thing. But the market for High End Audio has changed here in the US at least. The used market is a whole other story as buyers want it all and want it for free. I tried TMR Audio to sell a couple of items and what they offered was a crime for some really nice gear. They are really nice people and I understand they want to move it fast with about a 25-30% mark-up over what they paid you for as they need to stay in business and make a profit. However, that has also contributed to the lowering of any prices of gear sold here on Audiogon. So, yes you just say the hell with it and keep what you got unless you are willing to sell your nice gear way below market prices just to sell it and believe you me, the vultures are there to pick those sales up. |
Market price is what a seller can get for the goods, not what that seller feels she/he should get for those goods. We should stop thinking about equipment as some sort of a safe investment and accept that our gear is worth close to nothing to most of the people out there. Apparently, even to people similar to us. If they do not want to buy it at a given price, it is too expensive. garebear, Have you tried to split the difference between what dealer was willing to give you for your gear and what dealer would be advertising it for and sell it yourself? Maybe that would work. |
Yesterday a thread was started about the images I used as attention getters in ads and banners run here on Audiogon, I've commented about this above in this thread too. The thread have been pulled as it got pretty heated. I have just posted a new banner with quite a different image - wonder what the result of this will be. Banners and ads are a way to generate sales, which the OP in this thread was mentioning is disappearing. Lets see what happens ? Good Listening Peter |
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