I'm new on here, but trying to buy something - I've asked (probably dumb) questions of the seller, but no replies. Granted, I asked about shipping cost which is probably some kind of taboo, but I'd like to buy! I can't make an offer when shipping could be nearly half the price!
One possible factor could be the rapidly changing technology. Some gear can be outdated before the year is over, sparking interest near the end of year for some good deals.
Hard to pull the trigger on something if a successor is already announced soon after a component is released.
I certainly have some funds to buy new but it's not kind of funds to be able to buy what I would want to. Besides, I might be interested in particular older models. As for younger people, quite a number of them do have money, they just mostly spend it on other things or invest or save. They are also with some exceptions digiheads. When you are outside analog you are unlikely to become true audiophile. Someone would take this thought further - not only analog, outside of tubes there is no audiophile land.
I believe there is more to the current lull than our typical seasonal swings, or economic conditions, and that the high-end market may indeed be shrinking as @cooper52 pointed out earlier in this thread.
The point is that the market does seem to be shrinking and we can point to any number of factors affecting it. I'd put market-saturation at the top of that list, followed closely by an aging constituency (I guess I fall into that category) and then the fact that HEA doesn't seem to be attracting a younger following. My recent visit to the California Audio Show in Oakland was a bit of an eye-opener in that regard: I'd guess the average age of the attendees on the day I was there was somewhere in the late 50s.
Agreed Mitch And everyone is going to have a different viewpoint of what is fair.
Sometimes the right buyer for the right item can appear instantly. Other times it may be 6 months IF you are holding firm on what you consider fair.
Still back to the initial OP.
Sales are still VERY slow on the gon more is the pity! I have sold way more gear on eBay than here which as duly noted carries a 10% fee AND 2.9% PayPal fee. But at least they have sold although I was successful in some clandestine pm exchanges to direct a couple of interested parties from eBay to here instead. However you cannot count that as a success story for Audiogon, rather my tactics.... Lol.
With respect, "fair" listing prices don't seem to have much to do with selling used audio gear, which seems to be based more on what the market will bear at the time of sale than on any subjective idea of what constitutes a fair price. If a seller chooses not to part with their stuff for a price below what they believe is fair, then the consequence is that they wait longer for a willing buyer to come along. It seems to be really that simple.
Unfortunately I have to disagree on that the majority are asking too much. It is only the poor market that is driving prices down. I do not consider at all that 55% of new price for a popular in demand item that is only 3 months old is greedy. But the amount of either lowball offers received or just plain apathy was an eye opener.
Sure if you list it cheap enough then it will sell and if you do not have much money in it or you just REALLY need the money right away then fine. But the vast majority I believe are in similar position to myself at upgrade time in that I need a fair price for my old items to go towards my new items.
And we could argue all day on what constitutes fair price.....
No problems @dyl71 , I try not to read too much "motive" into posts here and I don't need to defend Audiogon since they are what they are and have done quite well on their own. @elizabeth 's post below is a good example of "what the market will bear." Around here, there have historically been seasonal swings, with certain times of the year being better to sell stuff and other times being better for buyers. There have also been ups and downs relative to the economy and for other reasons. I seem to remember it being pretty tough to sell expensive stuff here in 2008/09. Right now, for whatever reason, sales seem to be in sort of a lull where the items being sold either need to be in relatively high demand or priced competitively, or else they just sit. Being patient is ok for some sellers who can afford to hold until a better sales climate comes along. Other folks who need the money will have to reduce their price until the market, or the perfect buyer, decides it is low enough.
Think of it this way, without the power of Audiogon's audience, would you be likely to capture the highest value of your hypothetical $3,200 amp or would you be more likely to have to settle for something less?
I hope I'm not sounding like I'm directing my rant towards the Agon.., if that's not what you're implying then my apologies.
This is directed towards the bay.
But yes, the Audiogon community has been a treasure of information and is the main reason I'm here and where I'm at in terms of my gear and my listening enjoyment.
I’m not cheap by any means, but if I sell a $3200 amp, and shipping is $80...do they really deserve a check from me for $328?
Think of it this way, without the power of Audiogon's audience, would you be likely to capture the highest value of your hypothetical $3,200 amp or would you be more likely to have to settle for something less?
What gets me, is we also have to give them a percentage of what the shipping fees are?
That is an interesting point and one I guess I haven't paid attention to. @uberwaltz has some good thoughts in his post below. Also, with really large items I believe I have been able to arrange separate shipping through trucking companies, etc. and I don't remember running the costs through Audiogon's system in those instances. I will take a look at that because I am getting ready to list a couple of things, one of which is really heavy.
Again, I understand they do what they do to get the word out, and makes selling much easier...but 10% is steep. This is coming from someone with a little bit of an economic background.
As somebody who understands economics in the USA, you must know our economic society is built on providing services or goods at a cost that "the market will bear." Typically, to charge "higher" prices or fees over the long haul, the seller must show higher quality and/or value than competitors charging lower prices or fees. Audiogon has been a premier audio community for both selling/buying audio equipment and for sharing thoughts in forums over many years. Others have tried and some are pretty good in their niche but none I am aware of have been able to generate the same level of participation with both sales and forums. At the end of the day, like anything else, you are free to decide whether their service is for you, or not.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not upset at you...but I stand firm on the fact of what they offer and what they charge is over the top.
Yeah, I remember that about the difference in selling price to the shipping fees. I agree more eyes are on ebay, but the 10% is greedy.
Could be the buyer protection along with the stock. From what I recall, the 10% happened about 5-6 years ago? Looking at their stock, after the 08 slump, I think a lot of that played a part in today's fees.
Either way, there's a line between helping people sell their items and taking advantage of the system...as well as taking advantage of the people....and 10% is taking advantage of the people.
I know, I can try my luck on other sites, I understand what's involved...just my opinion and a little rant.
I would rather try to make money at a slower pace over a longer period of time and maintain a high customer base, then to try to gouge the individuals.
I agree that the 10% on shipping fees sounds wrong until you stop and think just why eBay did it. Because of greedy people who found a loophole in eBay's selling system. They found they could list an item they wanted say $15 total for shipped as $0.01 buy it now and $14.99 shipping and pay basically nothing in fees.
So now all the honest sellers are penalised for their actions and you need to add 10% onto your actual shipping cost to cover this. As an ebayer of 20 years plus I have seen all their changes for good and bad.
Still if you want a worldwide audience it is the place to be. They used to cap fees at $250 max but changed that about 3 years ago to $750 max.
So Agon the cheapest place to sell high dollar hifi items still but you do not have the audience of eBay by far.
Really? Considering the marketing power of placing your ad where thousands of audiophiles can see it, the business process and computing power that allows your potential buyers to make on-line offers that you can review and respond to without needing to have strangers enter your house (i.e., Craig’s list), and the benefit of being able to review feedback about your potential buyers before deciding whether you want to trade with them......you really think all that is not worth 10
I absolutely think it’s worth something..but no, not 10%. 10% of $50 isn’t that bad....but when you get up in price....that’s a little stiff.
I’m not cheap by any means, but if I sell a $3200 amp, and shipping is $80...do they really deserve a check from me for $328? That’s 3 times the rate of me buying a new car...that the dealer gets for fees.
What gets me, is we also have to give them a percentage of what the shipping fees are? These are fees paid for by the buyer, and go to the shipper..not our pockets...and they get 10% of the shipping fees? The 10% kickback is the sale price PLUS shipping fees.
Again, I understand they do what they do to get the word out, and makes selling much easier...but 10% is steep. This is coming from someone with a little bit of an economic background.
Why are other categories less than 10%? Don’t they get the word out in the same manner? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not upset at you...but I stand firm on the fact of what they offer and what they charge is over the top.
I can see a 2% kickback, maybe...but 10% is over the top
Really? Considering the marketing power of placing your ad where thousands of audiophiles can see it, the business process and computing power that allows your potential buyers to make on-line offers that you can review and respond to without needing to have strangers enter your house (i.e., Craig's list), and the benefit of being able to review feedback about your potential buyers before deciding whether you want to trade with them......you really think all that is not worth 10%! I can't cash out my change drawer at the local big box grocery store without paying a 10% fee - for no other service than running the change through a machine.
I haven't sold anything on ebay in years, but recently I discovered their 10% fee on electronics and was shocked to say the least.
I was going to start a new thread on it but seems it's been discussed before.
I can see a 2% kickback, maybe...but 10% is over the top.
Granted it's in black and white they charge this fee, but it doesn't jump right out at the occasional seller....should be a solid conformation when you list something.
But I see your point on letting it sit, or having it viewed by millions of people....but 10% is crazy IMO.
This may have already been discussed but are the new pictures where half of it is blurred out something listers have to pay extra to get rid of? These things absolutely kill the site for me.
It does seem that things are not selling as briskly here as we'd hope; certainly my recent experience reflects this. While I'm not a prolific seller on A'gon, I do have some worthy items I'd like to find homes for but they sure don't seem to be moving. I'm on my third listing for a set of quite good speakers and I really think my price is fair but so far haven't seen much in the way of response. (Well, okay a few insultingly lowball offers, but no reasonable ones). I recently sold a set of speaker wires for less than I was hoping to get, and a previous pair went through 2 1/2 listing cycles before selling after multiple price reductions.
The point is that the market does seem to be shrinking and we can point to any number of factors affecting it. I'd put market-saturation at the top of that list, followed closely by an aging constituency (I guess I fall into that category) and then the fact that HEA doesn't seem to be attracting a younger following. My recent visit to the California Audio Show in Oakland was a bit of an eye-opener in that regard: I'd guess the average age of the attendees on the day I was there was somewhere in the late 50s.
Well, now that summer's over, let's see if things pick up a bit and we can find homes for all that wonderful stuff we've enjoyed and want to pass along. Fingers crossed...
Yes fair priced cables still sell,just made first Agon sale in some time today, and it was very fairly priced interconnect pair. But at least a new owner is getting a great deal.
Agreed. But the $15,000 as new speakers I purchased for $6000 shipped recently would take forever to sell ,......if at all. Yes we buy cheap today, but we don’t sell.......relist, relist, relist........
Reasonably priced cables sell today. Vintage sells today. Tweaks sell today. DIY is in and hot. Reasonably priced high value gear from companies such as Tekton and Ifi will always sell. The rest....well it is tough going.
Grannyring. In response to your post I can say a resounding YES, and a possible NO.
To explain.
If you have gear from the old regime then yes you are going to suffer large losses selling now ( tell me about it) and its slow and painful and definitely not a chop and change market any longer.
However if you now own gear you bought in the new regime at lot lower cost then it is still feasible to do the flip flop of trying gear out. The cost of entry is much lower so the cost of you selling is much lower and the loss a lot lower. So its potentially still doable.
I am afraid I would have to respectfully completely disagree on your eBay assessment tbh.
I have been using ebay for over 20 years, since before they even had pictures and yes it has evolved and become much more expensive to sell but look at the potential customer base!
I still see a LOT of private sellers, especially in the audio and pro audio side and have bought and sold to many like minded enthusiasts over the years and still of late.
Do I like paying 10% commission? Of course not but if the alternative is that or it sits and grows mold in my room then it will have to do.
Yes the whole hifi market is stagnant but it does appear to be worse right here than anywhere else right now.
From what I have seen Agon has been primarily taken over by dealers and professional sellers-buyers. Not nearly as many private sellers on here as there used to be but I'm assuming that's in part due to the prices they charge for adds now. US Audio mart- Canuck Audiomart- UK Audiomart seems to have more private sellers still. Ebay is for dreamers and professional sellers IMO.
Always exceptions, but the old days of buying, trying and then selling gear is near gone. No doubt about it. It is for me and most of my very active Agon friends over the decades. This is the reality and best to keep what you have and work at getting the most out of it through DIY mods, modest tweaks and improving your room. Sure, I have sold gear over the past few months, but it was very slow going and at unprecedented low prices for me. I have sold more gear than 99% of folks here so I have some history of the “good old days”. I agree with MG about how this change is good and can be exciting.
The market evolves as does the hobby. I keep my eye on a few things concerning the HEA market.
One is, are more HEA stores opening or folding? Many of the stores after the Mom & Pop exodus still had relatively young owners that hung in there. These guys are at retirement ages now, or beyond.
Two, I'm keeping my eye on show attendance. Again that could very well be the same age issue. Most of this generation have made their end game trophy purchases.
Three, gaming! I don't see the next generation moving away from gaming and going HEA.
Four, the price tag. HEA shot itself in the foot big time! Maybe there are a few on forums like this hanging onto "price is sound" religiosity, but that's fading faster then the debate over it. Every year I have a couple of companies asking me if I'm interested in distributing their products to the US market. There's one I have fallen in love with, one. The rest of them I tell them they're going to have to drop their pricing dramatically. IMO, there are simply way too many great budget products out there for the expensive guys to fight off.
For now, some here are still able to put up a defense for the expensive stuff, but watch how fast that fades as soon as the first couple lower priced super stars knock them off their mountain.
Five, the spec-tech is history. Radio Shack engineers are no longer the majority. People are now buying stereos because of the sound and convenience not how they measure with some amateur test bench junkie. Ever notice how loud amateur experts get lol? It seems the older they get the less they know how to do. I don't see the next generation giving a rats hind end for home brew experts in audio. This loudness wars thing for example, what a joke. If that's all the higher the IQ is, don't expect "all the young dudes" to be around to listen.
And "6" time. One thing I noticed on the TAS forum (now gone) and the Stereophile forum (all but gone) and here is how time is king. Every year that goes by technology grows, and old folks get grumpier when not satisfied and or relevant. This my friends is a fact, if your someone who comes up here braggadocios, augmentative or full of suspicion, you are officially an audio zero. And if you have friends here the same way, congratulations your ready for the home. Music and audio is a blast and brings happiness like no other hobby. Someone walking around grumpy or always trying to make discord are not true audiophiles, they're internet trolls. Nothing more than unhappy people trying to make others unhappy.
We live in an age where most young folks have headsets on, smile that's a good thing. We have got more opportunity to enjoy the hobby we have then ever before. We can buy new products and old, and every price range and quality of sound. The only way you can be unhappy is if you haven't yet found your sound. Bottom line life is good and if you are spreading bad still, after all these years, well there's really not much anyone can do for you.
If HEA creeps to a craw, let it. That's called moving forward.
Its not just higher priced items, the bottom has definitely fell out of the Agon market. Another example. I have some modestly priced cables for sale here and on eBay both same description and price. Here a lot of views but not one question or offer. EBay, 4 questions and 7 offers, none of which were seriously out of order or offensive although I chose to hold out for a little closer to my asking price.
I seriously doubt it tbh as same items are open to offers on ebay too.
Just one example, there are a pair of speakers for sale by same seller here and on ebay. ebay price 2500, audiogon price 3000.
Now a 500 difference likely means in todays climate that potential buyers are going to skip right past his 3k add and go for the one on ebay at 2500 anyway. But let us say he made the sale on ebay.
That is going to cost them 250 in ebay fees, so net 2250 ( lets ignore paypal fees for now!)
Sold here at 2500 would cost them 50 in fees, net 2450.
Makes ZERO sense to list with such huge disparate prices or if you are going to I would expect exactly the reverse so more on ebay to help pay for the much higher fees.
And as a 20 year plus ebay seller I do know a small thing or two about the art of selling...lol.
Actually I am really not that surprised that a lot of sales have stopped on Agon tbh.
Past few days I have found a number of sellers who have same item on here and ebay ( as do I) BUT.....
They are all asking MORE for the item here than on ebay which is plain STUPID! Some in the order of 300 to 500! Ebay fees are considerably higher than here especially for higher priced goods as they are 10% right up to a max of $750. So let us say you are selling an item at $3000, on ebay you will pay $300 fees, here you prepay and it is $50, where is the problem in doing the math that selling here will save you $250 in fees alone.
So WTF are they doing asking for MORE on here? Greedy? Hoping as it is more a niche website, members will stupidly pay more than on ebay?
You got me!
My last 3 items I sold on ebay at no reserve auctions and best offer and every item ended up selling for MORE than I had them on here for, not the other way round! Yes I still lost more in fees and I would have preferred them to have sold here but if its a dead market here what can you do?
@uberwaltz....totally agree with your post. I have a couple of items for sale where I believe my asking price is quite fair. I’m getting no offers, lowball ones and just a lot of views. Just because times are tough for sales/sellers doesn’t mean I’m going to lower my asking price to whatever a potential buyer will pay.
I understand simple economics and that it’s currently a “buyers market “. Some would say my items “are worth whatever the market will bear.” This Economics 101 philosophy is rather simplistic and fails to consider all variables. My item has a certain worth to me as I’m the one who worked hard to buy it after deciding it was the right product for me. I believe a potential buyer of my item should have to work hard to acquire it also, albeit at a lower price as it’s used. It has to have a certain worth to him/her as well, otherwise they’ll simply submit a lowball offer. Ultimately the price is not so much about the economy status as it is about simple fairness. Fairness based on buyer/seller experience and consideration.
Let’s be honest, there are some buyers who are just plain cheap regardless of what the economy is doing; wanting something for nothing. Others simply want to flip an item. There is a fine line between lowering our asking prices to accommodate the market and plain foolishness/idiocy on our part. I’m not giving my items away as I’m not desperate. I’ll hold on to them until the market picks up again. If it doesn’t, then I guess I’ll have more than one amp, set of speakers etc. to listen to. Best regards.
@tomcarr I agree it has to be priced right to even stand a chance but there are levels to which you can go. If for example a 4 month old unit of a very popular and current item costing 4300 cannot fetch even any offers when priced at 2995 then there is something wrong with the market imho. Maybe just my perspective but I know if I was in the market for that unit 4 months ago when I bought a new one and I had seen one at 2995 that was only 4 months old I would have snapped it up.
Saying that I have just sold within the last week 2 decent price items on fleabay unfortunately with their higher fees of 10% but at least they sold AND at same price I was asking for them here where they received not even one inquiry or offer.
So I am of the opinion that the "lens" look of Audiogon has hurt lets say casual browsers and sales. At present time I do not think I be listing any more articles here, yes commission is a lot less but if not even going to get an offer it is pointless. Sad state right now.
I have been a member of Agon for about 3 years but never bought or sold anything, hence, no feedback rating at all. In spite of that, I recently sold a 2 year old Krell integrated within 3 weeks for 43% of retail which was almost my full asking price. Like the other, much more experienced posters have stated, it's all about price first, condition second.
I posted 2 items a week ago and sold 1 in the first day and yesterday just delivered the second item. I have never had a problem selling anything here. You just have to make sure the asking price is right. You can't expect to have a 5K five year old amp and sell it for 4K like many try to do. There is a guy selling some Wilson speakers here and every 30 days his ad renews. This has been going on for more than 2 years now! You would have thought by now the price needs to be drastically reduced, but no he is still asking the original selling price.
As a buyer ready to pull the trigger, its frustrating to see so many potential items as "local pickup only." Nothing like getting your heart pumping only to see those three dreaded words.
I'll agree with others that HiFi sales are down due to various reasons; eg, audiophiles are satisfied with their systems (for now), asking prices too high, low-ball offers, summer slowdown. Add to that the untested roll-out of the terrible new Agon format and I'm sure views of the classifieds have dropped off. I don't browse the sale items anymore.
It seems, though, there is still interest in upgrading HiFi gear...on USA Mart. I have bought an item and sold one this summer at fair prices.
I’m sure there is a plethora of reasons for this decline. My view is that many of us already have the system we want. Sure, we’ll make a few changes but not as many as we used to make. We’ve realized that we can’t take this stuff with us.
Also, prices are higher and the trend seems to be toward equipment that we’re not interested in buying. This is not an attack on computer audio, but many of the Audiogon members have a house full of old tech stuff; vinyl, cassettes, and CDs are in most everyone’s collection. Yesterday’s high end products are becoming obsolete, but they still sound good AND they’re paid for. Look at cables! RCA and balanced are dead, it’s all USB now. Do I really want to start over?
So...will people still be buying here on Audiogon? Of course, maybe just not as much as in the past. Most of the above comments are unique to me, but I believe they could be said by many other members. Feel free to disagree.
It could be just the time of the year but I do not think so. I mean this is not the first July to December period I have sold gear in and its truly never been like this. Now small ticket items that are keenly priced are still moving fairly well headphones, cables etc. However higher priced items have either got to be the absolute flavour of the day or priced stupidly low to sell quickly. Now if, as some have intimated, that means I need to sell an item that is truly 9.5 out of 10 at 65% off mrsp then its never going to happen! Not here. I would like to sell my items sure but I am darn well not going to give them away. I do not mind meeting at a fair compromise but right now people are not even talking any numbers. Imho it is pretty sure out there.
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