hana sl or one of the AT-ART9?

thanks dover
when you are saying "very relaxed presentation" it does not come on the account of some vividness/punch, or highs details?

on the MC One Special, i read some mixed review.
but i will check again.
the difference of price between  the two is not so significant.

btw, what do you think about benz micro,
i used 2 of them in the past, but after twice the cantilever braked  i'm bit carful with them
for the phono stage and gain - matching , my current phono is up to 59 db and i work now with a 0.25 mv cartridge.
the VDH is 0.65 mv, so its enough.
but i am planning to upgrade my phono, and will be glad to here suggestions.
can be around 1000-1500 $.

@stone1

The van den hul DDT/MC one have a very relaxed presentation, but dig deep. You can hear right into subtle detail, without the sound becoming bass heavy or bright - they are pretty neutral. They are beautifully balanced, allowing you to hear right into the performance. I would push to the MC One Special if you can afford it.

The AT9 series tends to be a little more clinical.

Both are great value.

Very much depends on the rest of your system and how you want to voice it.

Also be mindful of your phono stage and gain - matching is important.

The Well Tempered is now owned by Dynavector shareholders and were commonly demoed together as a pairing for many years. Also Well Tempered / Van den Hul was a common pairing with excellent results.

i think that my decision now is going to be between one of the  ART-9XI/XA, and the Van den Hul DDT.

dover about the Van den Hul MC One i read a mixed review .
a better on the DDT.
cant find any review for the  XX1, think it's discontinued .

I wouldn't buy either of those cartridges.

For similar money I would recommend the Van den Hul MC One or Van den Hul DDT. Alternately the Dynavector XX1 is also very good.

Much more refined than either the Hana or ART.

a vintage card i purchased in the 90's but for some reasons did not use it till a year ago.
monster alpha 2
https://www.gammaelectronics.xyz/audio_04-1987_monster.html

@stone1 It's just the Japanese standard of presenting the same characteristic which is measured at a different frequency (100 Hz), instead of the standard unsed in the rest of the world (which is usually at 10 Hz). You just need to take these values with a pinch of salt, in reality you won't know until you test it out with a test record for resonance frequency. 

The Audio Technica, the Hana and the Lyra will all work well from that perspective with your arm. Don't need to focus too much on this factor, the focus should be on whether it's the sound reproduction you're looking for. Ideally with a trusted dealer. What cartridge are you running right now?

habermas
the new art 9 in the usa where i am planning to buy a cartridge and phono is 1290$
are you sure its 1700 euro?
pp200 is 1800 $ and the 500 around 3200 $.
i used this article for the compliance. suggestions.
https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/tonearm-cartridge-compatability/
but you are right since they are talking here on 10 and not 100.
so what you are saying is that when the cartridge producer write 10/100 its realy much higher in terms of European?
i know about the 0.2 mv of the AT-ART9XA
i am thinking about the AT-ART9XI but haven't finally decided yet

@stone1 I only know the European prices, here the PP500 is at 2200€ vs. 1700€ for the AT ART-9XI/XA... You might wanna have a look on their new entry level they introduced last year, the PP200. It has rave reviews from reviewers and real-life people I know. On your side of the Atlantic it seems to retail at 1800$.

The Delos lacked body and dynamics vs. the ART-9. And most of all, in contrary to the higher end Lyra cartridges like the Skala and the Kleos that I heard many times on my dealer’s and fellow audiophiles’ systems, it just wasn’t involving with the music I was listening. Like it’s just sounds and not music. In that regard, I would say that the Delos is at the bottom among the AT ART9 and Hana ML that I mentioned before.

Regarding cartridge compliance, the issue with the figures quoted by Japanese producers is that they measure it at 100Hz, while the Vinyl Engine table is intended for compliance measured at 10Hz. The real measured values are usually significantly higher for these cartridges. For example, the Phasemation cartridges’ compliance values are given at 10 at 100Hz but are in reality 18 when measured by the European distributor. So perfectly matched for low & medium mass tonearms. For the Audio Technicas, it’s the same story, you can multiply the values by at least 1.5 for the purpose of compliance matching with the Vinyl Engine table. Both options will be fine,

Just keep in mind that the XA version that puts out 0.2mV will require 8 dB higher gain in your SUT/phonostage section than the XI. That means any grounding issues, phono cables and other noises must be impeccable in order to fully enjoy the cartridge.

Just my 2 cents

thanks,
the PP500 is twice price than the new art-9.
i'll read about the others mentioned.
if i count on the compliance match suggestion so the AT-ART9XI (15) is better match than the AT-ART9XA (10).
habermas
do you remember i what areas the AT ART-9 outperformed the delos?

I friend uses an ART 9 and also has the top Hana and to be honest in his system VPI Prime21 the Art 9 is better over all. Over all the Hana was great just didn't dig as deep into the music or detail level in his system as the ART 9. 

AT have from what i read updated the ART series and there is a replacement for the ART9's now. 

anyway 

I really like the Lyra cartridges, but the Delos that I tried is IMO a weak model in the line-up, especially when compared to other competitors in the same price range. The old AT ART-9 outperformed it in my setup when I had it for home trial.

On a low/medium mass arm like yours, I would prefer a Phasemation PP500 if you have the budget or a PP200 which is much lower in terms of price but I heard great things from people I trust. Another option would be the Dynavector XX2. I really disliked the entry level Dynavectors (10X5 and 20X2L), but the models above are really great value for money I feel, especially the XX2 and the XVI for which I'm saving money :)

Haven't heard the new AT ART-9, but if it was improved versus the old version, it should be a great cartridge and a serious contender to the above options. 

sorry for confusing you and my self.
i read this:
"A tonearm whose effective mass is rated at 10 grams or below is considered low mass".
"A phono cartridge whose compliance is rated at 12 x l0ˉ6 or below, is considered low compliance".
"Low mass arms mate well with both moderately high and very high compliance phono cartridges."

my ton arm ( well tempered) is 10grams.
checked the compliance of the AT-ART9XA
 

for ART 9 XI

, static or  dynamic, and hoe it will effect the sound.
for lyra delos:

• Compliance: Approx. 12 x 10-6cm/dyne at 100Hz

i am thinking now about an additional candidate.
the lyra delos, that i read good opinions about.
i know ,it’s more expansive, but if i will convinced that its better than the art 9, i am willing to starch my budget

thanks elliottbnewcombjr
it will take me awhile to understand ☺
i will not use sut, but phono preamp

thanks habermas, mijostyn
I gave up the hana

tablejockey
from my experience i dont agree with you.
and it's not so nice to read a comment like "How many times" 

Presumably smaller signal strength = smaller moving parts = more delicate control/refinement of movement/signal, presumably 0.2mv a speck 'better'.

BUT

Watch your 'resultant' impedance as well as your signal strength.

IF your SUT does not have individual adjustable settings (most do not),

the gain in db (X factor) will control the 'resultant' impedance shown to the phono stage. 

the formula for recommended 'resultant' impedance (after gain by SUT)

formula = coil impedance x 10. a bit less than or more than, just use it as a guide.

both mentioned cartridges are 12 ohms

guidance: 12 ohms x 10 = 120 ohms 'resultant impedance' guidance

find an X factor (calculate XF squared) that will result in the recommended impedance 'shown by your SUT'  to the phono stage which is typically 47k ohms (confirm yours).

47,000 divided by X factor squared = 'resultant' impedance 

then, see what signal strength will result from that x factor, enough? too much, overload?

i.e. one of my SUT's four X Factor options: 10 ohm input is x factor 20.68 (+26db) (x factor squared is 428). phono stage 47,000 divided by 428 = resultant impedance 110 ohms. just under guidance

it's 30 ohm input is X Factor 18.27 (+25db) (x factor squared is 333) phono stage 47,000 divided by 333 is 141 ohms, just over guidance

now check your signal strength using the X factors that get you close to the guidance of 120 ohms

stronger cartridge 0.5mv x X factor 20.68 = 10.34 mv. allow some loss, say 9.5 mv, 110 ohms.

0.5 x X factor 18.27 = 9.14, allow some loss, say 8.5 mv., 141 ohms. I would use that setting.

lower 0.2mv signal,

0.2 x x factor 20.68 = 4.14, allow some loss, say 4.0 mv, 110 ohms

0.2 x X factor 18,27 = 3.65 allow some loss around 3.5 mv, 141 ohms.

My SUT, I would chose the 0.5mv version.

You probable should consider a SUT with individual adjustments for gain and impedance.

You may consider Zyx Ultimate 100 H, nearly same pricing as AT ART9Xi but with slightly higher output. More neutral, warmer and faster.

Hanas are fine both ML and Tunami but above that cames the Etsuro Urushi which is amazing.

@stone1 I have Modwright SWP9.0SE, 68db gain. I've not heard any of these cartridges, my choice would be based solely on reviews of all.

You will do just fine with the ART-9XI.  I personally think it is the better of the pair with a better stylus and higher compliance. It is a much better cartridge than the Hana ML. 

I have both the Hana ML and the AT ART-9, on top of a Benz Reference S in my system. The Hana ML is the cartridge that I play the least with, I’m just keeping as a spare for when I will need to retip my other cartridges.

If the Hana ML can’t come close to the performance of a first gen AT ART-9, which in itself is far from the performance of a Benz Ref S, the Hana SL can’t come even remotely close to the level of the new AT ART-9 IMHO…

Phono cartridges, speakers and amplifiers are not genre specific. 

How many times does Atmasphere need to chime in with this fact?

@stone1 Yes I read that too and attribute that to the overall sound of the cartridge, again system dependent. I played the MOFI vinyl Moody Blues-Days of Future Past and the orchestra sounds phenomenal

audiosaurusrex
i am listening also to a big variety.
i aske cause i read in some reviews that some cartridge's are better for some kind of music 

@stone1 I love quality recordings, mix of jazz, blues, rock. Lately, been searching out MOFI, Analogue Productions and Classic. Some of my go to artists, Dire Straits, Steely Dan, Sade, Moody Blues, SRV, Hendrix, Clapton, BB King, Miles, Brubeck, Montegomery, etc. That said, I do think system synergy is important when choosing a cartridge phono pre set-up. Based on speakers, amp, PC's, IC's and SC's. I finally got my system to the point where it's very revealing and transparent. Spatial M3 Sapphires with an Octave V70 Class A integrated. While I found the Hana SL really really nice, the AT ART 9XA is so much better IMO. It's also more $$ but so worth it. You can see when you unpack it that it's a gem!

audiosaurusrex
what kinds of music do you listen to?

I do think there are some great vintage cartridges out there but some of the new ones are stunning. I went from the Hana SL to the Art 9XA and I'm very satisfied. The Hana as stated in reviews is a smoother more lush sound and the Art is more transparent with more air. They both track very well and have an excellent soundstage. The Art is superb in my system with the Modwright 9.0X phono pre at 68db. Nothing is lost and plenty of gain. So I also purchased the Umami Red but I have been so satisfied with the AT that I'm just enjoying that now. I had a SPL Phonos which I thought was excellent but the Modwright is so much better, dead quiet and super dynamic. Good Luck! 

now when i read reviews about my current cartridge, monster alpha 2, a cartridge i owned from the 90’s but did not use it till a year ago, i wonder how much improvement i will get from a new cartridge.
the sound i got from it is so natural and detailed .
but still, i don’t have any thing to compare
"Alpha 2 was so good that it became the gold standard by which other cartridge’s soundstaging was judged."

maybe i should put the money on a much better phno stage compare to the one i use now ( The Schiit Mani).

some thoughts about lyra delos?

thanks,
what is your stage gain range?
and did you already use the XA?

Recently, I've been looking at the three cartridges you mention for upgrade. I have more gain with my phono stage, so based on my research of reviews I'd pick the XA. Assuming you have enough gain XA is the way to go.

the conclusion of guy here was :
"For me, my musical tastes and my system, the higher output and more dynamic AT-ART9XI was the best fit. However, if you have some gain in your phono preamp and your listening tastes tend more to the acoustic and classical end of the spectrum, the AT-ART9XA could be an excellent choice."
since i am listening to a variety kinds of music, rock, jazz, classical, that's increase my dilemma.
 

You should be fine.

phono stages i’m thinking on have that 65db.
but i’m still worry not to get with the 0.2 enough "body" and punch from the music, or a bit anemic .
forgot to mention that my current arm is something between low to medium mass- 10 gram.
that was AT say about the difference between the two:
"the ART9XI louder, the ART9XA providing more detail."
a bit strange description "louder".
https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/support/audio-solutions-question-of-the-week-how-do-i-choose-between-the-art9xi-and-the-art9xa-phono-cartridges/#:~:text=In%20summary%2C%20both%20are%20fantastic,Audio%20Solutions%20Department%20for%20assistance.
what do they mean by:
"Non-magnetic core cartridges tend to have moderate mid/low and low frequency reproduction"
is it good, or bad?

You will need around 65db gain in your phono stage to use the XA.

XA may have a subjective refined presentation compare to the XI.

Both are a solid choice. 

XA air core aligns with more exotic(expensive)low output cartridges.

"or there is still a way to get the ART9"

There isn't a compelling reason to look for a NOS ART9 -UNLESS you can get it for considerably less