Grounding cable gauge size

One thing I did try last weekend was putting the Andrews device in and connecting the neg from my Wilsons and that produced a nice subtle buzz. So, a no-go on the Wilsons going to earth ground.

So now I have all my other signal grounds in the Andrews unit.

It's been a hectic week. Company visitors and a leaky pipe that took me 2 nights to repair. Now I'm paying my KY taxes.

bugredmachine,

Can you post a picture of the Andrew device?

ozzy

The RF Router MK 2 | System Grounding | Russ Andrews Accessories Ltd

Thanks, Does the device connect up to ac ground and then to what?

ozzy

Grounding Guide

They have a Plug In RF Router which allows grounding though a power outlet and a RF Router MK2 for use with an earth rod.

They are connected to anything that needs grounding such as casework grounds, shielding and even speaker driver frames if you are so inclined.

The idea is to provide an ideal way to remove anything that might be ruining your sound quality.

Yes, I have 2 earth rods. One for AC grounding from the Puritan and one for signal grounds via the Russ unit.

So far the biggest gains for me have been the 2 ADD-PWR Wizards I use. The music is so addicting I could care less about noise. But I like to tinker so I'll carry on. I'm sure I'll get time to get those boxes going this weekend.

I also owe Jeff Smith a call so we can kibitz about grounding.

Thanks for the replies. I'm not keen on adding an additional earth grounding rod. Mostly I fear that with a lightning strike there would be 2 paths to ground.

I also own a Sorcer X4 and the new I/O unit for usb and ethernet. Great equipment.

ozzy

Ozzy,

I'm with you. That's why I'm going with the plug in unit.

I've learnt that Russ Andrews is having a 25% sale starting on the March 28. That's off the purchase price but then the cable is not included with the sale. Personally I'm happy to do my own cabling.

pedroeb,

Is there a USA version of the Russ Andrews Plug In RF Router?

ozzy

Ozzy, yes it’s listed on the last page #3 under all grounding products.  Made to order at 217 vs 228 on the uk version.

Now I am again amazed what the Entreq grounding box does. I just added a Peak 4 to one of the Silver Tellus terminals. This device is a wooden knob, I guess hollowed out with some metals inside. (I think they claim there is 5 different metals). It just screws on in place of one of the wooden nuts that hold the cable in place.

Son of a gun, this little thing does add more detail. At first I thought it to be a bit too bright especially in the upper midrange/treble area but now a day later has emerged into the soundstage. What I am hearing is more detail throughout.

This sure amazes me since it is only signal grounding. What we don’t know about the crap in the ground connections that is left to discover?

ozzy

tksteingraber,

What is the difference between the Russ Andrews unit and just using the ground from the outlet?

ozzy

The Andrews should have a filter network in it like the Groundmaster to make sure what goes in does not came back through.

I just tried connecting a ground wire from an outlet to my grounding box and I heard hum.

ozzy

Similar to my incident. Must be making a ground loop. Don't forget, many chassis grounds can be signal grounds on some devices. My amp's ground to the wall is also the chassis and XLR grounds.

Here is a simple device I made with a spare Furutech clamshell plug and banana jack. Takes the banana plug straight to ground only (one wire inside). With the clamshell you can grab the banana nut and hold it tight to the plastic shell when you close it up.

bugredmachine

The Andrews should have a filter network in it like the Groundmaster to make sure what goes in does not came back through.

What makes you think it's just an empty box with a simple wire in it?

It would never be an empty box. It would have to have filters for certain frequencies and perhaps some diodes to let the noise escape and not return.

I never said the Andrews was an empty box. 

I found  plugging in the ground wire from grounding box to a power conditioner is better.

I would like to try the Andrews plug, but since I got hum when I tried a ground wire from an AC outlet to my grounding box, I'm not sure if the Andrews device would change that.

I am in the USA, and it would be a long return process.

ozzy

Ozzy, have you determined what kind of ground is going to the box? Are you connecting in series or parallel?

If your box is a chassis ground or otherwise an electrical ground then you would be creating a loop no matter what the device is.

If your signal ground is not part of the AC ground of the device then you will be okay. Have you checked all your ground points to the AC ground pin on the IEC of your devices first to determine which is truly a signal and which are AC grounds?

To repeat, on my amp, the ground of the iec on the amp is exactly the exterior of the XLR connectors and the chassis itself. So therefore, they are AC grounds and already being dumped through your power cable. If you try and "ground" them once again via a box, that is okay. If you then tie the box banana to an outlet ground, that is creating a buzz because it is a ground loop.

bugredmachine,

I have 4 separate grounding boxes. One for my amps and subwoofers. One for my digital and 2 smaller ones for my speakers. They are all connected via the ground side on a rca/banana. None are connected directly to chassis or to ac ground.

So how would I use the Russ Andrews plug in device?

ozzy

It is essentially a Groundmaster. I wanted one to have a filter before my second earth rod (and to give his a try) for my signal grounds

So, are your amps and subs signal negatives for sure not chassis?.

@bugredmachine could explain what a non A/C ground would look like connection wise on a component?  Would that only apply to two prong components?  Thanks
 

Fyi - I contacted RA to see if the RF Router Plug-in and the RF Router MkII box performed the same if you plugged the MkII in the wall and not connect it to a grounding rod.  They said the two would perform exactly the same.  Seems to me the MkII offers future flexibility and would take up less plug space.  

bugredmachine,

I am connecting only to the speaker banana/spades on my amps and the rca’s on my subs.

However, I do not think the Carver amps have a separate (3rd wire) ground on the AC line.

ozzy

Some day I would love to try these Grounding cables out! (Scroll down to the bottom of the page to see info on their new "Ghost" Grounding cables. 

Grounding cable “Ghost” 1,5 m - 4 750 Euro

We do customize your grounding cables according yours specific needs, all sort of connectors are available.

Yes I do use their PSD and find it to be absolutely stunning in performance.

(Dealer disclosure) 

The Bricasti dac I use does not connect the outer shell of the RCA's and XLR's to the power ground pin on the power cable. So they are only signal grounds.

On my amp, the case, XLR's and power input ground pin are all the same, so there is no chance of having a signal-only "ground" unless my device is a dead end box with magic crystals and does not connect to ground.

Ozzy, have you put your ohmmeter across the rca's of your sub and the power pin of the iec for the power cable? If there is a short, then the RCA's are connected to ground via the power cable. In that case, trying to connect the grounding box to a outlet ground would create a loop.

How about connecting the RA Router MkII box to a large ground box instead of connecting to a ground rod and avoid plugging onto an outlet?

Good question. I'll ask that from Russ Andrews website

ozzy

@bugredmachine in checking my DAC’ s ground wiring it’s IEC ground is connected to a chassis connection and from there a ground wire connects to circuit board.  No direct wires from the chassis ground to RCA or XLR’s. Is this considered a signal ground similar to your DAC?  Thanks again.

tksteingraber,

Russ Andrews had no answer.

ozzy

Getting there. I still have to make the silver cables to complete this project and take it for a spin. It's been very difficult to find the time to get this completed.

The insides of my boxes are like battery plates. I made a "square" and a "tall" unit. I have silver plated (presumably silver) connections and I also put an "output" jack as well. Copper sheet and aluminum sheet with a conductive media.

I borrowed ingredients from you folks and decided to mix them with potting soil. I looked at topsoil, but it is filled with sticks and twigs. Once you mix in the shungite, magnesium, carbon, and copper chop, it takes on a much different consistency. I also packed it into the spaces and then I laid a piece of EMI absorbing sheet inside each cover before attaching.

Mixing bucket

Filling the boxes

EMI absorber sheet:

One unit screwed together

Puling 136 millivolts

And 25 milliamps

Getting there. I still have to make the silver cables to complete this project and take it for a spin. It's been very difficult to find the time to get this completed.

The insides of my boxes are like battery plates. I made a "square" and a "tall" unit. I have silver plated (presumably silver) connections and I also put an "output" jack as well. Copper sheet and aluminum sheet with a conductive media.

I suppose places like airplanes and the international space station (ISS) need to carry boxes of dirt in order to have a ground?

Well done bugredmachine, looking forward to your review once hooked up for a few days. 

Nice…thanks for sharing design pics.  What are your box dimensions?  So just trying to understand the battery like set up.  Would your box be connected to a component on the copper banana so the aluminum draws the noise through the mix and then out the aluminum banana to the ground rod or duplex plug similar to a battery draw?  Keep us posted on results.  Looks intriguing! 

One is about 8x8x4. The other I thought I would experiment with longer and fewer runs of metal. It is closer to 15x7x4. The metal strips are all 2 inches and the MDF is 1/2", hence the 4 inch box depth. I was trying to have a greater amount of copper versus aluminum but not by much in the end.

I was not sure on running through the box as dead-heading is safer and avoids any ground loops. But I put it in out of curiosity and perhaps running to ground might add some performance. But if it does, why not just use a filter network instead of box full of dirt and minerals?

bugremachine,

The pictures made your boxes much larger than I thought they were. My DIYer is about 18" x 24" x 8".

Also, when you are completed try some brass spikes underneath.

ozzy

Agree with ozzy the boxes should be treated like any component regarding footers and proper shelf.

Fun project…Thought I would share my findings after several weeks of using and adjusting my 3 DIY ground boxes.  Now obviously each system and home electrical grid is different and will experience different results. My system is not super revealing high end and  I am blown away at what a little build effort, small investment and how experimenting with materials can make such an impact on sound quality.  Dead silence for a tube amp and tube DAC.  Clarity, separation of instruments,  depth of soundstage, bass definition all improved significantly.  Who would of thought you could get these results?  I built 2 6x6x6 each one is connected independently to a speaker negative banana. The larger 12x7x6  has one banana connected to my power condtioner chassis ground that all components are plugged into while the second banana is connected to the wall outlet ground only. Below is a list of building materials.  I kept the fill ingredients to a minimum which worked fine for me.  Lastly, my findings were using solid copper plates vs aluminum plates didn’t seem to make a difference, 11ga stranded ofc copper sounded better than stranded silver or 16ga solid silver (slightly fuller, richer, warmer sound to me), doubling the size of the box made a noticeable difference on the power conditioner. Sound improves with use as there seems to be a break in period.  Pics are on my system page.

Ground Box 6”x6” (2)

-  Made of scrape melamine covered in contact paper

- Copper plates, copper tape,  banana plug, bare solid copper ground wire, 

   11ga stranded copper speaker wire 

-  50 g Tourmaline fine stones

-  225g raw Tourmaline stones

-  50/50 volume mix of rock salt (4 lbs) and horticulture charcoal (2qt)  Connected one box to each speaker neg posts

Large Ground Box 12”x7”x6”

- Same as above with these additions

- 2 banana plugs

- Copper color aluminum plates (work as well as the copper and easier

   to cut and shape)

- 500 grams of natural tourmaline

- rock salt (8lbs), horticulture charcoal (4qts), graphite powder (2lbs),

   sand(quartz) (2lbs)

Connected large box to power conditioner chassis ground with power

    cord cable ground only connected to spade plug with hot, neutral 

    and ground wires twisted together.

I recently purchased a Peak 4 made by Entreq. It screws on in place of the wooden lug holders on my Entreq Silver Tellus box. It is said to contain 5 different metals including Tungsten.

It does add clarity to the already great sound I have achieved. I can’t try it on my DIY version though due to the specific thread size.

But it makes me wonder if I should have included some Tungsten to my DIY box(es)

ozzy

But it makes me wonder if I should have included some Tungsten to my DIY box(es)

ozzy

If you listen to heavy metal, then… yes... It would likely help.

I just ordered a Russ Andrews plug in router. Thanks to those who mentioned it. There is a sale going on, I got it at 25% off. Not sure how long it will take to receive but I will have 60 days to evaluate it.

I’m going to try it in all areas including into my DIY grounding box, Entreq box and maybe just some chassis grounding.

ozzy

@bugredmachine how do you like your Russ Andrews router?  I was thinking of ordering one as well and wanted to get some input.  Or anyone else who has one…