Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

@ghasley , and others, good advice - thanks. I have no intention to move on to another server anytime soon, even if I end up acquiring another right now. My thought is I can hook the K50 up to a cheap DAC I have and just run it for months. I’ve heard the K50 cand sound rough for a while.  I definitely have not heard the N20 at its best yet, without the AES cable.  I fully expect it will clearly pull ahead of my Innuos setup once I try multiple AES cables.  The fact that in can almost tie my Innuos’ heavily optimized USB with its non optimized USB is very telling.  I still wonder if the N20 will actually be just right in the end, for me, once I try the AES cable.  It has a touch of warmth and that solidity I’m after.  Just need a bit more transparency.

@lalitk , i didn’t mean to imply the imaging was not good with the N20.  What’s happening is purely related to the lack of upper end transparency and resolution compared with the Innuos gear.  The imaging is all intact with the N20.  But without that last touch of air and resolve, you don’t get that effect of suspended in space vocals and instruments as much as with the Innuos.  It’s there, just not as much.  Switching to the Innuos it’s more 3D - not to say the N20 is not 3D, it is for sure.

@ghasley 

+1. Wise counsel.

Charles

@nyev 

Could I suggest, respectfully, that you perform a couple of very important techniques.

First, the differences between servers will be material but at this level they are each very, very good. The fact that all you are changing with speaker setup is a little toe-in speaks volumes. With each material compnent change in my system comes a complete re-setup of the speakers. Once they are marked on my fllor then, and only then, can I reasonably compare the two presentations.

The Zenith is not at the same performance level as the N20, even with the Phoenix. It doesn’t mean you shouldn’t like it more but it might also mean that with the Innuos chain being completely optimized for USB and the Gryphon dac board is certainly optimized for USB and your speaker setup optimized for that chain…which brings us to the N20.

Second, you might consider pumping the brakes and excerising more patience. Wait for the proper aes cable to arrive and settle in, take the time to reposition your speakers properly, take good notes. Mark the floor (not with a sharpie but properly notated painters tape LOL). Revisit and repeat. You are about to introduce a third and potentially fourth set of server/streamer variables and you are doing it at breakneck speed. Decide between the two high quality server/streamers you have on deck. A-B til you are sure which you like better and then, sell one on and demo/purchase the next one in the same manner. Then and only then will you possibly get where you want to go. Live with something a while.

Depending on the day, a Bentley is a more satisfying drive than a Range Rover…on other days, the opposite….over a longer period of time….you will prefer one over the other when all things are considered. Listen to bad recordings of good music…which setup makes that exercise more fun. 

Perhaps the most important thing to inject into the process? While the inboard Gryphon dac board is quite good, you seem to be seeking a 10 out of 10 with a steady stream of $10-30k streamer/servers….they will each sound very different, especially if your speaker setup remains reasonably static. It isn’t a race so allow your right brain to guide the experiments and your left brain to evaluate the musical enjoyment.

As always, best wishes with the journey. 

“ I have two sets of toe in positions marked with a sharpie on the floor”

@nyev 

In that case, something else is out of place. Imaging is not a known issue with N20. 

I've never been able to step back from more resolution, transparency once I've heard it, my goal is progress, lower resolution, transparency  is regression in my book. Certainly there have been times when the extra transparency and resolution has caused hits in other areas, very similar to what OP is experiencing, but I've usually been able to tune and tweak to get the balance I'm looking for. And there have been times when getting that fine balance was unobtainable, in that case the responsible component was sold off. When this happened another  higher resolving, transparent component was purchased to take the offending components place, just couldn't give up on higher resolution once heard.

On paper the new Innuos Statement looks very, very  nice.

@lalitk yes, that is correct.  I have two sets of toe in positions marked with a sharpie on the floor!  I have Herbie’s gliders so it’s easy to move the speakers between the two positions.

“Less going on with imaging though”
@nyev

Are you adjusting (toe-in) your speakers when you switch to N20? Based on your own account, both of these streamers differs in how they project imaging in your room.

Yep. Going back to the N20 (with presumed limited USB performance so not a full test), it’s just so much more solid sounding, with a nice warmth to it. Less going on with imaging though. And a very subtle high-hat on one particular track is totally audible with the Innuos gear, and not so much on the N20’s USB output. If the AES cable will help the N20 with high and low resolution, with a smidge better separation and depth, the N20 may very well be the winner yet.

As another aside, connecting the PhoenixUSB to the N20’s USB output, adds a touch of transparency but there is something lost. Less warmth, less “upbeatness”. Definitely prefer the N20 without the PhoenixUSB.  And without the PhoenixNET as I mentioned before.  It’s like it’s allergic to Innuos gear.

Tried going back to my Innuos boxes for the first time after a few days. Wow. Just blown away by the added resolution, transparency, air, and separation. Voices and instruments hanging in space etc. But at the same time, on my “revealing” system I am missing some groundedness/focus that the N20 offers. The image with the Innuos setup is not as “locked in place”. I also suspect the Aurender is warm leaning while the Innuos is strictly neutral, which makes some material a tad thin (but never bright). Will see how the N20 fares once I get the AES cable. And hopefully, the K50 as well!

Nothing new, just really validated my prior assessments.

I can imagine how the new Statement Next-Gen sounds, based on reports, and based on my own experience with lesser Innuos products. I bet it fixes all the issues I have aside from the touch of warmth/richness that I seem to want.

This was inevitable but I sent an offer for the used K50. Will figure out the path forward for trialing the other streamers later. Should be a good offer as it’s been listed a while. But I won’t proceed if they counter.

Hopefully I can get my analysis of these products completed before the recession hits. Otherwise I’m prepared to lose some cash. These products at this level will sit listed on the used market for many months at the best of times. Interestingly that used MU1 seems to have sold in a flash. At least it’s not listed anymore. Sort of wished I just scooped up all three lol…. It’s a very satisfying process to validate these products and be confident of their respective strengths and weaknesses.  And, learning a bit more about my own preferences in the process.

@ghasley 

The ‘network’ part of my Merging Technologies DAC can be bit confusing to anyone if they are not familiar with the concept of RAVENNA. So what does RAVENNA network configuration allows…..Peer to Peer connection to any numbers of computer or streamers over your network. The Merging DAC has the capability of controlling multiple sources over the network, for example I can connect and toggle between a Innuos Statement, K50 and N20 from its source menu for side by side comparison, all over Ethernet. Think of Merging DAC equivalent to an Analog Preamp but in digital domain. 

Now the clock, The MERGING+CLOCK is designed to provide Synchronized Perfection to multiple components simultaneously that can accept Master / Word Clock inputs, like N20 and my Merging DAC.

You can read up in detail about Merging CLOCK here, 

RAVENNA

This open and published IP network technology had been created to meet the demands of national broadcasters and focused on essential requirements of extremely accurate clocking, high resistance to packet loss and very low latency. Initially it did not encompass high PCM sampling rates and certainly not DSD. However, it was not difficult to make changes to allow that, so Merging worked closely with the developers to make sure that sufficient channels at up to DSD256 could be handled with an accuracy that exceeded anything previously available. It remains the only logical choice for the professional and the audiophile and is now available in MERGING+NADAC. The added bonus to using an advanced networking solution is being able to send and receive control information as well as audio data. This opened up exciting possibilities in the studio and now you can enjoy these same benefits in your own home. 

@sns , I edited your statement for accuracy:

"I’d be very interested in your comparison of AES if when you did get the Antipodes"

Trying to stay committed to giving each of these three and the Statement too (which Nuno at Innuos has actually directly offered to send to my local dealer, who is not an Innuos dealer, for me to try).

I’ve been deliberating whether to continue with the "buy used" route where possible (the MU1 may not be possible), or to try to switch to working direct with dealers/companies to get a demo. From a cost perspective, it’s not all that different really, after I compared all the possible outcomes. Maybe it’s just me, but I’m always apprehensive of involving dealers/vendors unless I’m fairly confident I’ll buy a particular product, and involving 3-4 vendors in this with all the shipping involved seems excessive to ask of them all, when I will in the end only buy one of them. I did conduct a Shunyata vs Audioquest shootout for power cables where they each sent me demos, and I ensured both companies knew what I was up to at the outset. Shunyata in particular was extraordinarily helpful through the process with proactive communication from Richard, and for the most part I chose Audioquest only because of personal preference.

As I said, Innuos generously offered to send a demo Statement for me. With Antipodes I’ve heard they offer 30 day returns when buying direct, which would work for me. And Grimm is more restrictive - they offer a 14 day return policy as part of their purchase contract, but only from the time they ship the unit, and they require tracking info when returning the unit for proof it was returned on time. I guess it’s doable but that would be rushed.

If I proceed with buying the used K50 for sale now, it means I may need to involve my dealer with the Innuos and Grimm servers (I think we get around the import duty if it’s sent to my dealer, or at least I never directly pay for it), and I’d feel bad if I chose the K50, or the N20 for that matter, in the end.

Trying to figure out the most reasonable path to trialing all 4 servers without putting out the companies and dealer too much. I’m totally willing to pay for shipping and their time helping set this up, but I don’t think that really helps from their perspectives.

@lalitk 

Later I switched to a Network Attached DAC with external clock and power supply. The N20 connected to my DAC via LAN (no USB or AES cabling) and re-clocked by external 10MHz clock was a different beast all together. The effect of external clock on N20 was pretty startling to say the least. The channel separation, lower distortion and a greater phase clarity became the hallmark of music signal. The new level of realism, more analogous, intimate presentation with external clock in the mix especially with higher resolutions files.

Forgive me if I’m missing something but if your dac is “network attached” then the N20 will have virtually nothing to do with the performance of the dac/clock.

@lordmelton 

Your aes vs usb test is very likely a null result…if you were to get your hands on a really good aes cable and a similar quality usb cable you might hear an accurate outcome. Very few (unless your dac has an inferior aes input and a supercharged usb input) would arrive at your conclusion. The N20/Aurender aes implementation is quite often the preferred output. The clock in the N20 is quite good…

@lordmelton , interesting results of your AES testing, thanks. Not suggesting this is the correct way to think of it, but Audioquest’s AES Diamond cable costs 2.5X their Diamond USB cable (both silver). Just raising the question of whether an equally priced AES and USB cable should be expected to perform equally or not. Audioquest’s pricing suggests not, but I really don’t know.

@latik In stating I was sold on Antipodes, I was within days of purchasing K50 when I was notified the custom build streamer I ended up purchasing came up for sale. Again, K50 was my choice based on the second ethernet port optimized for output to second streamer, as you know still my preference at this point. I had nothing against the Aurenders or Innuos, simply fact Antipodes had the nice AES AND network outputs.

@lalitk +1

The day before yesterday I connected an Atlas Mavros (copper) AES between my N20 and DAC. Just interested to see if I'd been missing something regarding AES.

Well started listening yesterday evening and it was sorely lacking compared to the USB. Granted the USB is solid silver, but they are both similarly priced.

With AES music was less separated, sounded congealed with less micro detail and above all zero PRAT.

I could easily tell in a blind listening test. The USB being light, airy with high tops and clear bass. Timbre and textures were excellent too. Vocals were real.

So I know my Musetec 005 is USB optomised but as @lalitk said even all your downstream components can influence the sound.

Anyway we'll find out for certain when you get your cables.

“to be substantiated through my testing….”
@nyev

That’s been my motto as well. Only through testing within the context of our systems we can leverage the strengths and recognize weaknesses of a given component. All else is pure speculation or simply an opinion. Given my extensive experience with N20, the N20 performance greatly varied by what’s ahead in your chain. With EMM DA2 DAC, I enjoyed N20 more with AES over USB. Not that USB sucked but I preferred AES as it sounded more addictive and natural to my ears. Granted, I was using two different brands of cabling. Another friend of mine, reported similar traits, N20 connected through AES to his MSB Reference DAC.

Later I switched to a Network Attached DAC with external clock and power supply. The N20 connected to my DAC via LAN (no USB or AES cabling) and re-clocked by external 10MHz clock was a different beast all together. The effect of external clock on N20 was pretty startling to say the least. The channel separation, lower distortion and a greater phase clarity became the hallmark of music signal. The new level of realism, more analogous, intimate presentation with external clock in the mix especially with higher resolutions files.

Again, this is going back to the argument of separates vs one box…USB implementations, OCXO’s clocks on a PCB board in a confined space can only do so much. And for most part, they do a pretty darn good job. Having experienced what I’ve with external clock, I can’t imagine going back to listening to a Streamer and a DAC without an external Clock in the mix. I am now looking forward to further pushing the limits with either W20SE or N30SA.

Whatever you decide, just enjoy the ride!

@lalitk I think you are right that the PhoenixUSB may have spoiled me. While it’s possible I could fall back to preferring Innuos, if I did that I’d move to the Statement (non next gen), which should be slightly better than what I have now, in a single device solution, as it not only has the PhoenixUSB embedded, it also has embedded Ethernet regen, on top of all the power supply benefits.

But, if I understand correctly, the USB output’s of the N20, K50, and the MU1 are not really optimized, while their AES interfaces ARE optimized, as intentional design choices. The N20’s AES output has the benefit of leveraging their high precision clock (so should be a better comparison with the PhoenixUSB performance), whereas the N20’s USB has no such optimization that I am aware of. Aurender’s own marketing says exactly this on the N20’s web page.

Mark Jenkins of Antipodes has talked in interviews about USB being flawed compared with other interfaces, and while I’m no expert, I think he’s likely correct, but I also think you can engineer around such flaws as Innuos (and I hear Taiko) have done. It’s just that Aurender, Antipodes, and Grimm didn’t bother. And Innuos totally didn’t bother with AES at all - until their latest line of products (Pulse).

So I think the fight isn’t fair for the N20 yet, as currently I’m comparing its non-optimized USB interface with Innous’ heavily optimized USB interface. The AES cable will allow me to compare all solutions on even terms. I think Innuos is likely king of the hill by a long shot when it comes to USB, aside from Taiko.

That’s all my running theory at least, to be substantiated through my testing….

So far, the N20 testing has really helped solidify what I like and don’t like about my Innuos setup. It’s true I had taken its strengths for granted:

Strengths I want to keep:

-Transparency

-Bandwidth (higher highs and lower lows)

-Soundstage Depth

Weaknesses I want to fix:

-Sets the listener back from the soundstage (not a flaw, this is just based on my preference)

-Could have better focus on all tones, with more solidity, and to use the word HiFi Advice likes to use, “incisiveness”.

-Not sure if I want this quite yet: could have slightly more “meat on the bones” in terms of an added richness and organic sound. The reason I’m not sure if I want this is that I don’t know if achieving this is possible without sacrificing the other qualities I’m after. I’m quite certain based on accounts of others that the K50 and N20 (with AES) are the only options that could achieve this. The question is, at what cost.

I do feel based on accounts of others that the MU1 or the K50 could possess have these all covered.  I probably shouldn’t discount the Statement too.

“Right now there just isn’t anything I can do with the N20 with USB that will change”
@nyev

Your feedback on N20 USB output is interesting. I believe you’re now spoiled by PhoenixUSB which takes the incoming signal and completely regenerates it to an extremely high-precision signal to feed into your DAC. This goes back to the argument of separates vs one box. Is K50 / MU1 going to measure up, only time will tell :-)

I won’t be surprised if after trying N20 / K50 and MU1, you end up preferred your current trio of Innuos.

@sns 

Interesting feedback on K50….coming very close to and really sold me on Antipodes; which one is it?  Did you end up buying the K50? And what DAC did you pair your K50 with….

@nyev Your conclusion in regard to usb seems solid. Looking at how the usb implemented Phoenix vs N20 this is what should be expected.

I'd be very interested in your comparison of AES if you did get the Antipodes, I came very, very close to purchasing the K50 for the very reason of comparing SPDIF vs usb. In your case you'd also be comparing to Aurender for this rendering mode. The other thing that really sold me on Antipodes was the optimized direct network output port for use in dual streamer setups which I've found  to be optimal in my setups up to present.

@lalitk

“I couldn’t help asking….you grew impatient within a week with N20, how are you going to cope with K50 long break-in 😊”

I know, right? I thought of that and it’s one of the advantages of springing for a used one rather than going for a month long trial of a new one!  I was even telling myself that is why I should buy one now, so it can be running while I am focusing on the N20!

The reason I’m impatient is that I think this has been long enough to conclude that the N20’s USB won’t cut it for me, regardless of the fact that it does some things very, very well, and I don’t know when the AES cable will arrive. My focus will return to the N20 IF the performance improves as expected with the AES cable. Right now there just isn’t anything I can do with the N20 with USB that will change how I feel which is why I’m impatient :)

I think the N20 has opened up ever so slightly more as I’ve been running it constantly, but if it has, it is very, very subtle. Pretty sure the prior owner must have done the burnin.

“Getting impatient!”

@nyev

I couldn’t help asking….you grew impatient within a week with N20, how are you going to cope with K50 long break-in 😊

“One of the other network players I want to try, the Antipodes K50, is widely known to take many months before it fully settles, with very sudden improvements that show up every 1-2 months during this time. Word is it can be a bit harsh prior to this burn in.”

While waiting for my AES cable(s) I am deliberating on which server to try next.  While I could in theory go and buy one of the used K50’s for sale, I am forcing myself to be patient!  On the other hand there may be none available when I am ready to try one.  But I want to let the N20 have all my focus first.  And I truly don’t know at this point which will be leaving first - the Innuos boxes or the N20.  I can say with confidence at this point however that if I could only use USB, I’d keep the Innuos for it’s higher bandwidth (higher highs with more transparency and lower lows).  But there is a high probability the AES cable may change that with the N20 pulling ahead.  Can’t wait to find out.  Getting impatient!

@nyev

Good call! Sablon makes good sounding cable. I’ve heard nothing but high praises, especially their ethernet cables. 

@lalitk after your post I decided to reach out to Sablon.  They have a 28 day return policy (from shipping though, so not much time), on anything that is more standard.  Hopefully their AES cable is standard.  That way, I can try the Sablon and also the Audioquest Diamond AES cable.  Whichever is best, I will keep regardless of how I feel about the N20 and my existing Innuos gear in the end.  I will need an AES cable for my eventual test of the K50 and MU1.

“Curious as to no suggestion or comparisons to Aqua LinQ”

@rowlocktrysail 

Linq is a two box solution…needs an external server to run ROON or HQPlayer. OP is looking for a one box, no frill streamer or server/renderer. 

@sns The Cable Co doesn’t lend to Canada unfortunately.  

Curious as to no suggestion or comparisons to Aqua LinQ

@nyev The Cable Company lending library has a multitude of cables available for demos, used them for years for all manner of cable shootouts. I agree with your characterization AQ Diamond, don't feel the need to replace this usb cable.

“If N20 survival hinges upon how you hear things through the AQ AES cable, I suggest you try atleast two-three different AES cables from the brands I mentioned in one of my earlier posts.”

@lalitk yes, I was thinking about that.  My plan is to see how the first AES cable goes and see how much difference it makes, before moving to a different brand.  Unfortunately my dealer (only dealer in town) doesn’t like shipping anything unless it’s not a sale.  For some reason, they make an exception for Audioquest cables.  They said something about them making shipping easier, and Audioquest pays for shipping. And that not all cable companies do.  I offered to pay shipping for demos, but they didn’t like that approach for some reason.   I will need to call around for other cables.  Not that it means anything but I am quite familiar with the difference between the AQ Diamond USB and a small handful of other brands of USB cables. It’s also a fairly resolving cable with a good frequency range that doesn’t really have much of it’s own character at all.  It doesn’t call attention to itself.  It’s not what I call liquid or organic.  It lets the character of surrounding components come through unaltered.  Not sure if those qualities apply to the AES version as well.

That said, someone else mentioned that there was not as much of a variance in AES cables as there is in USB.  But IF the AQ cable doesn’t pull the N20 clearly ahead of my Innuos gear (I’d say it’s a tie when using USB, they are both great at different things), then I’ll source more cable demos.

I for one am not crazy about goop on connectors. I have tried some of the Goop that allegedly enhance the audio experience and end up cleaning it off and going back with Stabilant 22. This is under the advice of EE and Avionics Techs in the private and Military space.

When it comes to DAC I am with @lalitk on using the prioritized inputs of the mfr. I use the recommended USB on my LessLoss EE DAC. RCA unbalanced output is straight off the R2R Ladder. 

@lalitk This is good information, but too many dac manufacturers don't mention anything special with inputs other than usb, seems they always mention usb optimization, not enough with others. Presume these dac manufacturers want to be all things for all people, don't want to limit sales.

Chord is another company that mentions superior input, in their case optical. The issue some have with inputs other than usb is limitation on up,over sampling acceptance.

“My only issue with ports on dac is manufacturers often don’t make clear which port is optimal. ”

@sns

Most manufacturers of high quality DAC’s takes pride in laying out how each port is optimized for us to make an informed choice. One fine example would be AQUA and there are many more…..

This all helps to confirm that dac and streamer is best perceived as a package deal, kind of like speakers and amps. Match best output or rendering scheme on streamer output to optimal input on dac, this should result in optimal sound quality. Doing this along with optimizing network and you're done! The network should be the most complex issue to solve, so many reportedly excellent choices.

My only issue with ports on dac is manufacturers often don't make clear which port is optimal. I think it pretty clear with usb inputs, generally going to be XMOS or Amanero board, may be some proprietary solution, generally going to be nice filtering, dedicated power supply, quality clock. Not so clear what makes SPDIF or I2S optimized on dacs? Here's some interesting info found on that special forum some love to hate, https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/study-is-i%C2%B2s-interface-better-for-dacs-than-s-pdif-or-usb.7105/

“If AES totally does the trick with the N20 though, and I end up going with Aurender in the end”

@nyev 

If N20 survival hinges upon how you hear things through the AQ AES cable, I suggest you try atleast two-three different AES cables from the brands I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. 

Thanks for the tip, but I am paranoid about keeping my contact surfaces of my cables pristine! I’d prefer not to gum up the contacts with tape. I’ve actually purchased some Deoxit G100L to apply to all of my plugs and connectors, on the advice of some trusted professionals in the industry (and verifying that every enthusiast who uses it swears by it). We’ll see, it hasn’t arrived yet.

I read an unsubstantiated post on this forum that claims the N200 USB circuit is identical to the N20’s USB circuit. If true that would, in all probability but not certainly, put the N20’s USB performance on par with the Innuos Zenith, without the PhoenixUSB Reclocker. It stands to reason given that Aurender seems to nudge people towards AES which employs the high precision clock. I know every DAC is different though and in some cases USB may not be better. I’ll give the AES a go, give it a few weeks (I’ve read accounts for other devices that if AES hasn’t been used, it’s circuits must be burned in even if the rest of the unit is burned in) and decide either to list my Innuos boxes or the N20, whichever is in the lead, so I can try the next one.

I did throw some Herbie’s Tenderfeet under the N20. Made a huge improvement in coherence and the vertical size of the stage. But, they do that for all components you stick them under! I just expect and demand that effect when I use them now. You do need to be experiment with placement, as different placements can cause sound imbalances, rather amazingly.

Haven’t mentioned it yet but Conductor is rather good. Better be since it’s the only option! Works well; no glitchiness.

Oh and here is a weird thing - removing the PhoenixNET from the chain and plugging the N20 direct to the wall with an Audioquest Diamond Ethernet cable sounds best with the N20. Mid and top end opened up, just slightly. I did find with my Innuos chain the PhoenixNET added smoothness and relaxed things, so I guess with the N20 it is already relaxed and smooth (to my ears and in my system) and going further in this sonic direction is overdoing it.

Back to the master clock, I hear what you are saying and totally believe you in regard to the results, and if I tried one I’d probably want one. But I just don’t want an added box to my digital chain, just as I don’t want my reclocker as a separate box. Want to keep things simple, and reduce my cabling.  If AES totally does the trick with the N20 though, and I end up going with Aurender in the end, it would nevertheless be nice to have the master clock option in case I feel differently in the future.

https://community.octoprint.org/t/put-tape-on-the-5v-pin-why-and-how/13574

I know it talks about printers but disregard that. Put the electrical tape on both ends of the +5v pins. Enjoy! You won't damage anything. If it doesn't work your DAC needs the powerline. No harm done.

@lordmelton, not sure if it matters but my Dragons are both the high current versions (powering my amp and Torus). I am very familiar with the differences between the Hurricane and the Dragon, at least for my amp. The Hurricane is actually a pretty good cord as well. For me the Hurricane really just had less stage depth and a slightly elevated “glow” in the lowest frequencies, vs the Dragon. I’m also not sure how to disable the power on my AQ Diamond USB cord, without ruining it. In theory it won’t help, as my Gryphon DAC features a supercap acting as a battery to provide clean and stable power for USB.

For now I’m just letting it run and checking in once in a while. The real party begins when my demo AES cable shows up. Seems Aurender really pushes AES over USB, like Antipodes. It’s one of the first points on the features list on its web page. And MU1 but that’s different because of the FPGA oversampling. I’ll do way more intensive critical listening when my demo AES arrives. Trying to be patient as I figure the N20 needs some continued run time. In all likelihood though, the prior owner almost certainly must of run it over 200 hours in the two months he had it on his rack.

So far, I have solutions from Innuos and Aurender - both are truly great in different ways from one another, and both have drawbacks that are also different from one another! The more I listen to one the more respect I have for the other! I’ve never experienced an audition quite like this! Makes me wonder if the K50 or the MU1 might be the goldilocks solution. But yeah, the AES cable with the N20 should stir the pot. The fact that the N20 is helping spotlight what the Innuos does well is making me consider the Statement (not the next-Gen, too pricey). Not really a fan of the two-box solution. And, I feel like new models could possibly be around the corner? Possibly with AES support as the Pulse series has? Who knows. Probably a year or two still. Also, I have a hunch that putting the listener further back from the performers may be a “house sound” sort of thing for Innuos. Which is actually quite good. But, I think I’m looking for more of a front row experience. The Aurender does that. I’ve also read that the Antipodes really does that - puts you where the performers are and the soundstage envelopes around you. Moreso than the MU1. But all that is just a few common experiences I’ve read on HiFi Advice and also from some owners comments.

@nyev The master clock is for later consideration but it's absolutely essential for realising the full performance of the N20.

In the meantime why don't you try inputting one of your Dragon PCs into the N20 and disabling the powerline in your AQ USB cable.

At this stage I would only listen to tracks on your SSD and try the N20 in critical listening mode.

If you do some streaming don't forget to switch MQA on, if you listen to Tidal, the N20 will give you the first unfold, 96KHz.

I can continue to test over a long term in a relaxed manner. It’s a fun process so far, and I’m still totally stunned how different the two setups sound from one another.

My suspicion is continued burning-in and switching to the AES connection path is only going to improve the Aurender N20 from its already impressive initial presentation.

Charles

Just realized that the differences I’ve observed between the Innuos and Aurender setups I tested are not dissimilar to the differences that HiFi Advice has noted between the MU1 and K50 (for followup comments after revisions from both companies).  Interesting…

@sns , I wholeheartedly agree that you and others may prefer the Innuos. It’s even possible I may shift back to preferring the Innuos after some time. They just sound SO different, so there is some degree of novelty bias at play here I’m sure.

While I would still characterize what I hear just as I described, I have to say how I feel about those differences has changed slightly, having listened to a wider scope of music on the N20. On some tracks, I’m missing the Innuos setup. What am I missing? Mid and upper transparency, higher highs, lower lows. The N20’s more “focus on the basics” approach sounds superb on a lot of material and is a bit of a relief, but on other material it can sound a bit flat and unengaging.

Can’t recall who said the N20 will do “razor edged guitar solos” (and that the MU1 wouldn’t), but I actually find the N20 tones down guitar solos quite a bit in comparison with the Innuos setup where guitar solos leap out at you.

Innuos Zenith Mk2 + PhoenixUSB - expansive sound, focus on full frequency range, transparency, and deep soundstage.

Aurender - organic, relaxed, denser upper bass and mid bass with more energetic presentation in these specific areas, fleshy vocals.

A bit concerned that after testing the Aurender I will want a blend of what Innuos does best and what Aurender does best - with none of the bad parts of either! At this point, I’m actually quite surprised at the lower resolution of the N20, which I never would have noticed if I hadn’t had the experience with there Innuos setup.

I would not go so far as to say one is more “pure” than the other without manipulating the source. Not saying that’s not true, just that I don’t know.

The AES cable with the N20 may change everything, when I receive it. We’ll see. Also, regarding burnin, the Statement Next Gen and the K50 are known to have point-in-time “step” increases in performance after MONTHS of use, with no change in between these points. People even report a temporary decline in the Statement Next Gen just before the final bump up to stabilizing on the max performance. Not sure if any of this applies to the N20. For what it’s worth, I’ve only noticed a change over the first few hours of use; it’s sounded the same since then so far.

Very glad I took this approach to testing network players. I’m in no hurry to return a demo to a shop and say I’m not interested. I can continue to test over a long term in a relaxed manner. It’s a fun process so far, and I’m still totally stunned how different the two setups sound from one another.

One thing I forgot to mention - the N20 throws the soundstage so differently that I actually had to adjust my speaker positions! Vocals were sounding a bit off on some tracks, and I found that toeing my speakers inwards, much further than my Innuos setup prefers, was required to fix the slight soundstage issues.

@lalitk ​​@lordmelton , thanks for the tips on the master clock.  I’m intrigued.  But I also worry that I’ll feel like I’ll be repeating the experience of adding the USB reclocker, where I went “yeah, big difference.  But I wish I just went with one single box that had this level of performance.”

If I were to go for the master clock I’d worry I’d keep upgrading and end up with a taiko extreme or something, lol….

@nyev Very nice, detailed comparison. My only question is, can there be too much detail, transparency? Maximum detail and transparency has always been my goal in audio reproduction, while there have been periods of times where that added D/T wasn't positive, with tuning and tweaking have usually been able to get back to neutral and/or natural. Based on your comparisons, think I'd enjoy the Innuos sound over Aurender. Still, sounds like you may need more time with Aurender, changes in our perceptions can happen over longer terms, this along with component burn in and tweaking.

As for all network items, I'm also beginning to see more of this daisy chaining with various network devices, and I wonder about the changes 1gb capable items bring to table. I have recently introduced some 1gb capable devices and the change has been good, higher speed ISP service has also been a positive. I'm thinking of upping my service to 1gb since going from 300 to 500gb was so positive.

“Which I know is just marketing.”
@nyev

I beg to differ. AES/SPDIF implementation is much more complexed than USB where data packets are simply being pushed to a DAC for all the heavy lifting. Aurender clearly advocates SOTA performance for end users through their AES/SPDIF output by controlling the signal out to the DAC at intervals defined by the on-board precision OCXO clock. There is only so much one can do with USB outputs in a streamer as the outcome will greatly vary by USB implementation in your DAC. Aurender’s dedicated USB Audio output is physically and electrically isolated from the noise-generating CPU board to minimize noise in the sensitive audio interconnect. And from what I’ve read, your DAC module is pretty darn good with handling incoming data faithfully and meticulously. These particular features among others in your DAC implementation stood out to me,

“Super-Capacitor (12.5 Farad!) power supply for USB module - acts like a true battery supply”

“Temperature-compensated, ultra-low jitter crystal oscillator with better than 5 parts per million accuracy”

As I pointed out earlier, each system is unique. I enjoyed my time with N20 paired with EMM Labs DA2 DAC. But when I heard N20 with an external 10MHz clock, my jaw simply dropped. A different beast altogether with external clock! It became clear to me why Aurender chose to include external clock input with their top 3 models. In my opinion, when it comes to pushing the limits of what’s possible in digital realm, Aurender is way ahead of the curve. You may not think about pursuing external clock at this time but that’s something you should keep in mind before settling down with a streamer of your choice. 

Yes, Aurender say the SPDIF/AES outputs are best but this will all depend on your DAC.

@lordmelton 

USB offers greater resolution and DSD and besides that in my system the soundstage is much bigger with USB. Again though the N20 only upsamples using SPDIF/AES.

Anyway no crime in using both at the same time and switching between them.

Yes, it will depend which input  receiver of the DAC has been optimized. With regard to the digital source it’s clear that Aurender decided to optimize their AES/EBU pathway. Switching between the input options will tell the story.

Charles

@nyev You really don't need to spend many thousands on a clock. There are plenty of Chinese ones on Ebay and After Dark from Hong Kong sell decent clocks.

However a very high quality clock cable is vital, this will cost $2k+ and should be 75 Ohm rated for the N20 and not more than 1M.

The N20 will work great with a clock connected directly to it, don't worry about getting a DAC with a clock input.

Yes, Aurender say the SPDIF/AES outputs are best but this will all depend on your DAC.

USB offers greater resolution and DSD and besides that in my system the soundstage is much bigger with USB. Again though the N20 only upsamples using SPDIF/AES.

Anyway no crime in using both at the same time and switching between them.

@richtruss , yeah I wouldn’t even have enough ports for the rest of my house with the PhoenixNET. And unfortunately, 100 mega-quality-bits doesn’t cut it for other applications. In my fantasy that I’ll unlikely try, I’d connect the second PhoenixNET to my whole-house switch in the smart panel. The PhoenixNET would only have the one audio line coming out of it.

Funnily enough, I just saw a post in another forum that said someone suggested adding a second PhoenixNET to their system and they claimed it was transformative. They also added a PhoenixUSB though. Who knows. Was just a thought.