Sounds like for most people, gimbal is the way to go, which is probably why the most practical company, Rega, uses that design exclusively for the best value in tonearms.
I never understood the appeal of the hard to handle, wobbly unipivot, but for some people it can sound better and is worth the trouble I guess.
Like everything else in this hobby, it's a matter of what you're willing to do or spend to get the last couple % of improvement you perceive.
A couple contributors here have written unipivot arms off, and I have also. Although my dream table is an SME, they don't mention gimbal or unipivot in their Series V arm description. I guess it is a modified unipivot?
@rauliruegas , you can't possibly agree with me! That will make you a marked man for sure. Everyone will think you are an arrogant SO who thinks he knows everything. You sure you want to do this?
No really, thanx for the support. Geniuses think alike:-)
Dear friends: I'm with @mijostyn conclusion in this specific regards.
I owned several unipivots and I still have one from Grace and what for me is the best unipivot: Satin and I think that I still have one from Stax ( I think is unipivot. ). I owned Moerch, Audiocraft and other, not any more.
I have to say that under specific and controled circumstances Unipivots could sound pretty decent.
Normally I don't recomend to any audiophile that can goes with unipivot tonearms.
The real problem with unipivots is not only what we can " see " but what we can't " see " and that's happening at microscopic land down in the cartridge/tonearm grooves tracking where the stylus tip it's figth really hard against the grooves thatneeds to track and where in motion that stylus tip is disturbed for very strong developed forces in almost all directions along all the LP imperfections. To achieve a decent job down there that stylus tip needs stability, the kind of stability a gimball tonearm can gives to it and that an unipivot can't.
Normally the LP grooves are recorded at different velocities depening of the score and in the high velocity grooves the stylus tip is literally jumping ( sometimes we listen that distortion level and sometimes we don't but exist. ) an unipivot only makes things worst. Gimball tonearm permits to avoid that " behavior "? certainly not but helps in better way to that cartridge stylus tip to track in way better way and this is very important when we listen the reproduced sound by that cartridge.
Someone measured what happens down there and its differences between using a gimball tonearm against an unipivot? not that I know about.
The kind of question like in this thread in reallity it's open to each one way of thinking.
My experiences in " hundreds " of systems tells me gimball is the road to go " safety ".
Antigrunge, experience is the best teacher and yes, sometimes things really are that simple... except for the simple minded.
Clearthink, you are a riot. It is physics and science that I rely on. You on the other hand seem to prefer mythology. You have to put the computer games down for a while and visit reality.
Elliott, the SME 3009 is in no way shape or form a unipivot arm. It has ball races for the horizontal axis and a knife edge bearing for the vertical axis.
@chakster The 3P is a fine tonearm and Its azimuth on the fly feature is very creative, I just prefer the 2G. My reasoning is the 2G's vertical bearing is down at record level and it is a neutral balance arm. So from a technical standpoint it is a better design. Is it going to sound better? Not if your records are flat or close to flat. Is the Azimuth on the fly feature worth sacrificing optimum bearing geometry? I guess that is a personal choice.
it's gravity and the methods of resisting/using it.
Unipivot: My SME, 3009, very old design, still highly respected: the design is obvious, the adjustments results perfectly visible, and they hold their positions. anti-skate pure gravity. Long ago the rubber isolation sleeve needed replacement, they send me parts and instructions, fixed!
Gimbal: current blackbird 12.5" arm. Less fuss, Sounds great, but, you have to trust the parts and machining of the OEM, you cannot 'see' it's perfect.
antigrunge25"Is it just me who is marvelling at Mijostyn‘s certainties in life?; he is again spouting generalities from insufficient data."
I and others have pointed out that some contributors here have a "faith-based" approach to audio they do not believe in the science but in how they feel about things and they have a list of "beliefs" from which they do not bend, compromise, or deviate and of course they come here to convert the unbelievers to they're beliefs so it is easy to have all the answers!
No issues, billwojo. Just experienced enough to know every connection is a discontinuity, and a weakness. In fact if you read my post again it is about connections.
As for me, the one thing I have learned over the years is the fewer connections the better.
Tone arms happen to be the example we are talking about, but there’s a reason I worded it the way I did: the fewer the connections the better applies to everything.
There is simply no getting around it. Now at this point I could say it sounds like you have had some issues with sound quality getting in the way of convenience. But I won’t.
@millercarbon, it sounds like you have had some issues with tonearm cables and headshell connections in the past. If all of your connection points are clean and free of oxidation than there really isn't much to be gained by wiring direct. Check a good setup with an ohm meter for resistance and compare to direct wired, should be zero difference. If you heard a difference after converting an arm to direct wiring than you had a problem! Plus, I hate tonearms with non detachable headshells, makes swapping carts a royal pain. The better tonearms like the Victors and Micro Seiki's use a clamping type collet that is much superior to the type that just draws it in against a rubber washer.
Exactly. Tone arms are like everything else all down to how well an innumerable list of details is executed. Really good tone arms can be made from all sorts of different designs. There are examples of terrific arms made using wood, carbon fiber, aluminum alloy, pivoted, linear tracking, short arm, long arm, on and on. And on.
The most useful thing you can learn sokogear is if you can pick up a sense of how to judge the value of all these different approaches. As for me, the one thing I have learned over the years is the fewer connections the better. So of all the different tone arm design approaches the one I care the most about is that the phono leads be hard wired. I will consider all kinds of arms but never again one that I also have to buy a phono interconnect for.
You can take that however you like but all it means to me is all these other things people go on about- mass, compliance, length, etc, etc- they can all be done any which way and still sound good. But if at the end of the day you add all those extra connections you wind up shooting yourself in the foot.
like various different technologies (class a ab d amplification, planar vs dynamic driver speakers and so on) it is all about the quality and skill and care in implementation of the final product that determines how well it ultimately performs
case in point: I run a Dynavector DV 507MK2 with a Zyx Universe and a Mørch UP4 with a Scheu MC Analogue: on rock music, the Mørch is clearly preferred whereas the Dynavector on Classic and Jazz is miles ahead
Is it just me who is marvelling at Mijostyn‘s certainties in life?; he is again spouting generalities from insufficient data. In particular I‘d like to challenge him with a good Mørch or Hadcock design with a suitable cartride (e.g. Musicmaker, top Grado) to substantiate his claim. The resonance frequencies of unipivots are very different from heavy gimballed arms and hence mounting say a Miyabe or EMT Tondose won‘t get you very far. Conversely arguing that the liveliness and openness of a Unipivot have no attractiveness only supports his preconceived views of the world.
@chakster , The Reed 3P is not a unipivot arm and certainly does not act like one. It is very creative but IMHO the 2G is the Reed arm to go for. I was considering it but in the end I went for the Schroder CB.
sokogear, there is no accounting for taste. There have been some pretty fancy and expensive unipivot arms. To my knowledge only the Graham as remained a true unipivot and managed to control the torsional stability problem. It is very expensive and there are many who think it is the best arm out there. The one I have played with dates back before magnetic stabilization and it suffered all of the typical unipivot problems. Basis added a second bearing. @cleeds, sorry about my mis-typing of gimbal. Proper well designed 2 axis arms are better and that is a fact. Why do you think the manufacturers of two very fine arms went through so much trouble to stabilize the third axis? Ask Mark Dohmann or Frank Schroder that question and they will give you the very same answer. IMHO the VPI tonearm is garbage which is not to say it can't sound ok under the right circumstances. Originally it even had no anti skating device. My guess is the designer could not figure out how to add one so he made up this story about how it sounded better without it. I am not kidding either. Peter Ledermann is entitled, like the rest of us to make an occasional mistake. Because he finally associated with the right tonearm designer I will forgive him that mistake, not that he really cares. But I did buy one of his more expensive cartridges. Can't wait to hear it.
"Another Reed 3Ps innovation is its bearing system. Although tonearm bearing system can be considered as gimbal, it acts like unipivot one. However, major difference from unipivot system is that instead of a single pivot three pivots and both vertical and horizontal axis’ magnetic stabilizers are used. Such bearing system is as rigid as gimbal, but its friction coefficient is as low as in unipivot."
Ginmal arms or arms with two axis bearings if done correctly are superior.
That's opinion stated as fact, even though Mijostyn and I do share rather a distaste for unipivot arms. I've always found it creepy the way they wobble about, which seems to me the very last thing anyone would want a pickup arm to do. But that's just a prejudice. I've heard some extraordinary sounds from unipivot arms, including a 12-inch VPI on an HRX at Peter Lederman's Soundsmith. As usual, it's all about the implementation, not the technology itself.
In my opinion either can be excellent. In general gimbal is more expensive to make to achieve the same performance as an equivalent performing unipivot. Also, most people find gimbal to be more comfortable to use, whereas there is more of a learning curve with a unipivot. I think the true record nut should have at least one of each. ;-)
Dont forget the Well-Tempered Labs tonearm. I believe it is a quasi unipivot with much more control and little to no wobble. And yes, it has terrific sonics. Imo.
Ginmal arms or arms with two axis bearings if done correctly are superior. They are also more expensive to manufacture. Unipivot arms are easy and inexpensive to make They are a little more difficult to handle as they wobble when you pick them up. They are more difficult to keep in adjustment and are more finicky to set up. They tend to have more bloated less detailed bass. The two exceptions to this are the Graham arm which is stabilized by opposing magnets and the Basis arms which are really not unipivots they are bipivot arms. There is a secondary bearing that fixes the torsional axis. Tonearm wobbling and torsional instability are very bad issues in a tonearm as they can adversely affect the cartridges performance. I will never own another unipivot arm. There are so many excellent arms available with wonderful bearing designs at reasonable prices. But, you can always make a unipivot cheaper if that is what you are after.
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