Getting The Most Out Of A Koetsu Urushi

There are a lot of questions contained in your two paragraphs, and I cannot take the time to sort them all out, but I have owned a Koetsu Urushi for about 10 years.  I have used it exclusively with a phono stage that has enough gain such that I do not need to use a SUT (Atma-sphere MP1), but I don't think anyone has enough data on all possible users of the Urushi to tell you what "most" audiophiles do, whether they use a SUT or not.  Even if you get a bunch of responses on that subject, it still won't constitute a statistically valid sampling of Urushi users.  Far as I know, one or both of your phono stages will have adequate gain to dispense with use of a SUT, so that is what I would try first. 

With regard to your other questions, I try to mate cartridges with tonearms, not with turntables.  So, I suggest you mate the Urushi with a high mass tonearm that is also well suited to either of your two (very fine) turntables.  (I happen to own a DP80 and an SP10 Mk3.) The Urushi is low in compliance, which is why I suggest a high mass tonearm.

I am not familiar with your phono-pres but well with Lustre 801,           Sp 10,mk 2 (aka SL 1000,mk2) and Urushi Blue Sky. The most         phono-cables from Japan are (probably) from the same supplier         because they look  like twins. Your Lustre certainly deserve the
best you can buy. My Klyne 7PX 3.5 has sufficient amplification
for Koetsu and recommends 47 K but I use Denon AU-S1 for
all my LO MC's  in order to simplify cart changes.
The Blue Sky  is one of my best carts and much better to ''my ears''    then Koestsu Rosewood Signature. So the story that Urushi's  are      ''painted Rosewoods'' I don't believe. With SP 10,mk2 I use FR-64 with B-60 VTA adjuster. The FR-64 S is parallel to the platter +           the used record. 

Nandric, Where have you ever heard or read that the Urushi is a "painted Rosewood"?  That runs completely contrary to all that I have read about the two models, as regards their respective sonic characteristics.  When it was introduced in fact, the Urushi was heralded as a departure from the traditional Koetsu sound, which was characterized as midrange emphasis with rolled off bass and treble. (Not that there is anything wrong with that. I have never heard a Rosewood of any kind in my system, so I don't want to demean that cartridge, but that is what others wrote, especially reviewers of the Urushi.)  If the Urushi is a painted Rosewood, then the paint must have a major effect on frequency response.  That is certainly possible, I guess.

The FR64S is often mentioned as a great match for the Urushi.  Do you use the FR headshell, or the Arche?  I am thinking about mounting my Urushi in my FR64S with an Orsonic AV101 headshell.  (This is bound to upset Raul.)  My long term experience with the Urushi was with it mounted in my Triplanar. I suspect the effective mass of the TP may not be high enough to get the most out of the Urushi, but I don't know that for a fact.

Thanks, Nandric.  I too do not subscribe rigidly to the "rules" about matching cartridge compliance to tonearm effective mass, but just like the rumor that the Urushi is a painted Rosewood, there is a rumor that the FR64S is a really good match with Urushi.  And the benefits are said to derive from the rather high effective mass of that tonearm. Whereas the TP is "medium" effective mass, at best.  (Of course, one can always add mass to a low mass tonearm to suit any low compliance cartridge.)

For a year now I have been running my Acutex LPM320 (stated compliance = 42!) on my FR64S, albeit with a light weight headshell, and the combination produces no issues related to bass resonance.  (This is where I got into a big hoo-hah with Raul, as you may recall.)

This manufacture utilizes a very low output (mV) design strategy.  What is your current loading and gain setting on your phono stage?

I have a KRSP with diamond cantilever. I say, set up, set up, set up. You just can’t be too careful with setup.

I find that azimuth adjustments of 10 minutes of arc are detectable. Also, torque adjustments. Of course, tracking force and vertical tracking angle also matter.

I use the silver SUT’s from Lundahl, as they are the best I have ever heard (K&K Audio, no relationship). Just add a box and RCA jacks, $2000 all in.

Ultrasonic record cleaning is an obvious way to keep your Urushi happy, and your system relatively free of surface noise.

YMMV

I agree that the SME V arm is magic with the Urushi and that's what I use, into a Vendetta phono stage. No transformers needed.  I have also used it with a Conrad Johnson Premier 15 which also had ample gain.

Other arms that might be worth trying if you ever see them would be the Zeta (which I haven't owned), and Mission Mechanic (which I have used).  If you can't find them and don't want to spend the money on the SME I have herd that the Rega RB 900 works pretty well.

As to tonearm, I use the Trans-Fi air bearing. For $1000 it's the biggest bargain in high end.

@quincy 

The Liberty offers 64 dB gain in MC mode, with load settings of 100/220/330/500. Until now the 100 and 220 settings have been just fine for all my previous cartridges, which have ranged from Ortofon Winfeld, ZYX 4D, Shelter 501, Transfiguration Spirit III, and a couple of others. 

The Musical Fidelity Nu Vista M3 internal phono stage is set at 47K loading, even on the MC side. Output is 70 dB. Now the top end of the Urushi is the most open sounding on the Nu Vista, it seems that the 500 ohm load in the Liberty is too low for the cartridge. Truth is I never owned a cartridge that required this high a load, although the Koetsu literature provides such a wide range on load recommendation, 80 to 1000 ohms, to be of little use. 

So my thoughts are that a SUT is going to be needed to move this project forward. Looks like a 1:20 or 1:25 ratio transformer is going to be needed. Since I will also be changing out the tone arm cable on the GST 801, I would prefer to spend my money wisely, and get value for the dollar spent. 

What I hear from the Urushi is a very enticing mid band, and expansive presentation of space. Bass response if adequate, but not as authoritative as the Winfeld. I just need the top end to open up and be a bit more present, at the moment the sound is quite reticent. 

These carts need a good boost of gain, sometimes as much as your phono will allow.  Remember loading is resistance....like a spring, or damper as your cart sees it.  Running 47K is basically unloaded or WOT (wide open throttle).  Some prefer this setting or have no other choice.    WSPOHN is dead on with comments made in regards to the SME V arm and wise choice of a C-J Phone stage.  The SME V magnesium arm has (almost) the same dampening characteristics of iron, at a fraction of the mass.   The bearing system is NASA quality.

Neon, I suggest a call to K&K. Very knowledgeable, very helpful. They directed me to the silver Lundahl, and I couldn't be happier with the choice.

Dear Quincy, Contrary to your assertion, the Urushi and other Koetsu's have a rather "high" output signal voltage, compared to many other expensive LOMC cartridges.  It's from 0.4 to 0.6mV, depending upon which stylus velocity you use as standard.  The "Platinum" line of Koetsu cartridges does produce less output voltage. The Urushi is not one of those.

Dear neonknight, I do not follow your logic, at all, in arriving at the conclusion that you need a SUT.  Your internal argument seems to be based on wanting to provide less of a load resistance for your Koetsu, something higher in value than 500 ohms, based on what you wrote.  But adding a SUT will REDUCE the load "seen" by the cartridge, by a factor equal to the square of the turns ratio of the SUT.  For example, if you run a 1:20 SUT into the 47K ohm fixed load resistance of your NuVista, the net load seen by the cartridge will be 47,000/400 = 117.5 ohms.  This is apparently lower (or more of a load) than you desire.  (See also below about why not to use a SUT into an MC phono section capable of 70db gain.)

You state that the Urushi sounds best to you, or most open, with the 47K ohm load afforded by your NuVista at its MC inputs.  Why not go with that?  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. And finally, if you are going to use a SUT with either of your two phono stages, they must have an alternate pair of inputs for MM cartridges (lower gain) that provides at least a 47K load resistance if not higher in value. With 70db of gain from your NuVista MC section, using a SUT would overload your phono stage and probably would sound bad, besides also reducing the net value of the load on the cartridge, thereby loading down your cartridge (see above).

As an aside, I have lately been using 47K as a load for all of my MC cartridges; it sounds excellent.  I historically used 100 ohms as a load for my Urushi, and I was also satisfied with that for many years. The value of the load resistance should have at most a very subtle effect on apparent frequency response of an LOMC cartridge, most likely to be heard at the very top end of the spectrum.  It's more of a "feeling" than a measurable roll-off. 

Sorry. I wrote: "Your internal argument seems to be based on wanting to provide less of a load resistance..."  Actually, you want a higher load R which is less of a load. Hence the confusion of my earlier sentence.  The higher the value of the load resistor, the lesser is the load on the cartridge output.  You want a higher load R, which means less of a load.

First of all, I want to thank everyone who has chosen to participate in this thread. I appreciate all your comments and insights. Every single one of them has given me a bit of perspective, and things to think about.

I may be rehashing a few things, but this is worth mentioning. In the past, almost every cartridge I owned worked well on phono stages that were designed for LOMC, and with on board load settings. Now there was a bit of time where I owned a rebuilt Denon 103M, which had a wickedly low output due to its non ferrous magnet structure, something along the lines of .11 mV. Now the Liberty could not deal with that kind of low input voltage, so I ran a SUT with Cinemag transformers, wired at a 1:16 or 18 load as I recall. Don’t quote me on that though, working from memory. The Denon came alive with the SUT in the front end, while my other cartridges showed minimal or no improvement when compared to running off the MC settings of the phono stage. That is my only direct experience with a SUT/MC combo, as I always bought phono stages capable of running LOMC cartridges, and the cartridges I have owned always seem to be best suited for that kind of component. So my understanding of load relationship between SUT versus an active phono stage is sketchy at best. And there are proponents of SUT who feel this is always the best, and yet others who feel that the transformers are inferior to an active circuit. Like anything in audio, there is no consensus.

This thread is getting bogged down in loading, and that certainly is an important subject. But the larger scope of the question I am trying to get at consists of "Is the table/arm/phono stage I am using a good way to go about setting up a Urushi?" I try to keep my system down to two tables, as I only run one system. In the past I have owned tables from Well Tempered, Teres, Townshend, Galibier, VPI, Thorens, Garrard, and one or two others. After an extended bout with refurbished idlers, to my surprise I discovered that I like those big studio era direct drive tables. So I currently own a Denon DP 75 with VPI plinth, and Acos GST 801 arm. The other table being a Technics SP 10 MK II in a multi density custom plinth, and Riggle 12" String Theory arm. My feeling is that the Denon/Acos combo should be adequate for the Urushi. So these are my thoughts:

The Urushi goes on the Denon/Acos.

The Acos tone arm cable is a bit of an unknown as I am not first owner of the table, heck its from 1980ish. So the tone arm cable gets replaced with an Analysis Plus Silver Oval.

The question then becomes which phono stage to use. The choice would probably be the Liberty as it is the superior of the two versus the internal one in the NuVista. But with the load settings available of 100/220/330/500/47K am I better off running a SUT? At the very worst a SUT could be transferred to the MF phono stage and run into its MM configuration for the second table.

Of course one question that has to be asked is alignment/VTF/VTA, and how good my skills are. I set up all my cartridges, and have passable skills, and believe I do a respectable job. Also the question of this Urushi has to be asked. It came from a reputable seller, the cartridge was serviced by VDH and has his label. But is a VDH serviced Urushi really representative of what the cartridge should be?

Now my funds are somewhat limited, and I do the best I can with my audio gear. Perhaps I am past my level of associated equipment with this cartridge. Perhaps I cannot do it justice. If so I need to come to terms with that and decide what a course of action is. I currently own a ZYX 4D, Ortofon Winfeld, and Denon 304. The Denon was supposed to be my beater cartridge, but it sounds far better then it has any right to. So the question of what steps to take to get down the path of analog bliss and have a long term relationship with the Urushi is ultimately what I am inquiring about. Thanks again for taking the time to read this, and I appreciate everyone’s insights.

I think if you re-read the posts above, you will find answers to at least some of your questions. (You seem to have added a few in this last post.)  Now that you have made it more clear that you prefer to use the Liberty phono stage, I suggest you use it as is, if it has enough gain to suit the Urushi.  Any of the possible choices of load resistance you mention would work just fine with the Urushi.  I will repeat that the load resistance really does not make a huge difference with an LOMC cartridge, but I would agree there ARE very subtle differences, more important to some listeners than to others.  I also mentioned that I have taken to using 47K for all my LOMC cartridges; this is not a religion, and I am just as happy with 100 ohms, albeit that load now sounds a tiny bit closed in at the upper frequency extremes, compared to 47K.  I know for a fact that if you measured the frequency response of the cartridge with 100R vs 47K, up to 20kHz, you would see absolutely no difference, however.  I also suggested (politely I hope) that you might want to try plugging your tonearm cable into the MC phono inputs of your Liberty and try different load Rs to find out what you prefer.  I have no dog in the fight about SUT vs no SUT.  I believe one should do as one likes in that regard.  There are theoretical reasons on either side of the argument.  I only say that IF you choose to use a SUT (and you seem to want someone to tell you to do that), then be sure to plug into the MM (low phono gain) inputs of the Liberty, assuming it provides such inputs, and be sure to set the load R at the phono input to 47K ohms, no lower.  But be aware that the presence of a SUT in the signal path will reduce the net impedance "seen" by the cartridge, probably to below 500 ohms. (See my post above for the calculation in relation to the turns ratio of the SUT.)  At one point you stated that you want to achieve a load >500 ohms; using a SUT is exactly how not to do that.

Alignment you have to do for yourself.  Or if you feel incapable of doing it, ask a friend or a dealer to do it for you. By all accounts the Acos GST801 is a very fine tonearm, as good as or better than any you are likely to be able to buy new for anywhere under $2000.  But I do not know its effective mass.  Someone else may be able to help.

@lewm
Thank you for the response, it is appreciated. If the cartridge is minimally affected by loading, then there is very little to do to the system as far as getting it optimized. I can load it at 100K, 500K, and if memory serves there is a way to get to 47K on the Liberty. That would be interesting to do in order to make a 1 to 1 comparison against the internal stage of the MF NuVista.

As far as the Liberty goes, there is not a separate input for MM and MC, but rather internal jumpers that need to be made up to engage any particular setting. Not unlike a motherboard on a computer. Gain in MM is 44 dB, and in MC it is 64 dB. The history behind Liberty is that it is the factory direct offering of Peter Noerbeck of PBN Audio, and uses a more basic offering of his circuit that is found in his Olympia phono stages.

So, given the line of reasoning you put forth, my first step should be to change out the tone arm cabling on the Acos and see what the result is.

As far as effective mass of the GST 801, that is a number I have yet to come up with. I have the original owners manual and box for mine as I was able to source it NOS, and that information is not in there. Neither is it in Vinyl Engine, or any other site I can find. I do use the LP Gear Zupreme head shell with this cartridge, as it is 12 grams. The arm pipe is stainless steel, overall length is 337 mm, and there is an internal flexible tube for resonance control of the arm tube and shielding of the tone arm wire. The tone arm wire is silver. The GST 801 was the top offering from Acos, and given its time frame I would make the educated guess it is intended to be used with low compliance moving coils from the 80's era, which almost all of them had pretty stiff suspensions. 

Perhaps that is all that is required. If that does not provide the net results, then perhaps I am not a Koetsu kind of guy.

Raul, who is known for the MM thread here, owns an 801 and really likes it.  Perhaps he would be able to help with the specs.  But there is also no harm in just listening to the combination of 801 and Urushi. It's quite likely to be just fine.  Since the resonant frequency is inversely proportional to the square root of the product of effective mass X compliance, there is quite a bit of leeway in terms of what tonearms work with what cartridges to satisfy the equation.

Nandric,  It's worse than you say.  My MP1 was "tweaked" by me and now has more than 70db gain in the phono section alone.  And it's very quiet.  I historically used the Urushi with the MP1, but it was an earlier version of the MP1, still with its factory original circuit which made less gain, but still more than adequate gain for the Urushi.  So, running the Urushi into the hi-gain MP1 might be somewhat problematic. I haven't tried it lately.  I also own a Manley Steelhead, which feeds into my Beveridge speaker system.  I use it as a "full function" preamplifier, with no external linestage. I run my MM/MI cartridges into the MM inputs of the Steelhead and thence into the Beveridge amplifiers. The Steelhead can be well matched to the Urushi via its MC inputs. Right now, the Urushi is in its nice wooden box, at rest.  The ZYX Universe or the Ortofon MC2000 feeds the MP1.  Even with those cartridges, the volume control of the MP1 is barely up to 9 o'clock, where 6 o'clock is "off".  I use a stereo shunt type volume control on the MP1 which does not seem to affect the sonics, even when near to the rest stop.  

This manufacture utilizes a very low output (mV) design strategy. What is your current loading and gain setting on your phono stage?

The loading is for the benefit of unstable preamps and does not affect the cartridge. If the phono stage is stable, 47K will be fine.

I would suggest you get in touch with Bob@bobsdevices.com.  He can tell you the right answer.  Even though you might have enough gain and loading, he'll tell you the optimum.

Stringreen, Bob is a very reputable guy by all accounts I have read, I agree.  But he does SELL step-up transformers.  He would have to be a saint in order to provide a truly unbiased opinion.  Anyway, the point is that the "right" answer is there is no need for a SUT in conjunction with the Liberty phono stage/Urushi combination owned by the OP.  That is incontrovertible.  If you think there is an inherent electronic benefit to using a SUT in every case where one is using an LOMC cartridge, then that is an interesting and separate argument.  I am sure Bob knows how to make that argument.

Dertonarm who proved his capabilities with his products was/is
an advocate for SUT's in combo with LOMC's. But his theory was
that both , the cart and the SUT needed to correspond qua inductance and impedance. He advised me accordingly but I  was frightened with perspective of many SUT's needed for my LOMC's collection. I changed my mind when I discovered Denon AU-S1 which covers 2-40 Ohms carts. I use Denon with my Klyne         7PX3.5 in MM (amplification) stage.  

 I would have expected Peter @ pbnaudio to have chimed in since 
he is Liberty.

Well the first step was to order a tone arm cable for the Acos, and make sure everything is up to snuff that way. Have an Analysis Plus Silver Apex cable coming. Apparently they just released it as a phono cable, and the website is not updated for that product, although they have the standard interconnects listed. 

We will see how that works out, then we will decide if a SUT is going to be worth exploring or not. 

I have posted and read so many threads, where the response has not much in common, with the actual question-Hope I don't fall in that category. I purchased a Koetsu Urishi Black a few years ago. I added it to a Pioneer Pl-71.  It sounded very tinny and basically like total crap. Thought I'd been ripped off. After much research and talking to Mr , I learned my tonearm had insufficient mass. This may sound kinda ghetto, but I added some black permagum to to tonearm and she'll sounded full and vibrant. The older tonearms just didn't have enough mass. 

@handymann 
That is the word about the Urushi. But then it seems Koetsu owners can use them on a SME V with excellent results. And that arm is 10/11 grams in mass. Decidedly in the medium mass camp, right there with a Rega 303. The Zupreme head shell i use on the Acos has more mass than a V. So that must not be an over riding factor in getting the cartridge to perform properly, although having it on a 5 gram arm could certainly be an issue. 

Dear Neon, If it sounded like I don't like SUTs, that was not intended.  My point is that you don't need one.  While "Bob" and Dertonearm (founder of an audio business in Germany that makes a humongous megabuck turntable, a tonearm, a headshell, and lately a line of phono cartridges starting at ~$9000US and going down from there) are very knowledgeable guys who know more than I do about the why's and wherefore's of using a SUT, I would just point out that there are a slew of experts of equal stature who line up on the other side of the question. In the end, it depends, among other things, upon the phono stage. Some hi-gain phono stages sound better than others.  Same goes for lo-gain phono stages that you might use with a SUT. Same goes for SUTs; some sound better than others.

On the subject of effective mass, my Triplanar has effective mass in the same range as the SME V, about 11g, I think. My Urushi sounded very good in the TP, but I have always wondered whether it will sound better in a heavier tonearm.  Now that I own a few that are heavier, I need to try it myself.  However, I have to wonder whether Handyman's experience (Urushi sounding like "total crap") may have had as much to do with poor alignment as with the medium effective mass of his original tonearm.  

Oh sure I understand what you are saying Lew.

The first step in the process is getting the Analysis Plus Apex phono interconnect installed, and making sure there is not a bottleneck there. Then we will evaluate.

I did pick up a used SUT for a modest price, made with Lundahl 9206 transformers. Ideally this works on the Musical Fidelity internal phono stage when set to MM position, and should pair well with the Denon DL 304. The MF/304 combo is for casual vinyl listening, when I want to spin my Culture Club and Wang Chung records!

The Urushi has an internal impedance of 5 ohms, as does the Winfeld, and the ZYX 4D is 4 ohms. This means if I find a SUT for lower internal impedance cartridges, it should work well with all 3 of these, and that has some value to me. So we will experiment with the Lundahl based SUT, and if the results are positive I can consider investing some money for the other 3 cartridges.

Its all a grand experiment! In the end, I might be content with  the Urushi going direct into the Liberty. I am happy with the other two cartridges that way. I need to delve into the manual again and see how it can be set up for 47K , and get a baseline of hearing it that way. 

The Analysis Plus Silver Apex is due to deliver today. With that bit of the puzzle in place, I can then decide if I need to progress a bit further in terms of optimizing other parts of the analog chain for this cartridge. 

On the subject of effective mass, my Triplanar has effective mass in the same range as the SME V, about 11g, I think. My Urushi sounded very good in the TP, but I have always wondered whether it will sound better in a heavier tonearm.

@lewm teh effective mass of the Triplanar can be adjusted somewhat by using a different weight combination.

Besides internal impedance/ resistance, the other determinant of what SUT to use is based on signal voltage output of the cartridge.  Any MM stage worth its salt is quite happy with 4-5 mV signal voltage at its input.  Since the Urushi output is ~0.5mV, you can readily understand that a 1:10 step-up ratio is perfect.  Such a SUT running into a 47K load resistance will give an effective impedance of 470 ohms (47,000/100).  That would work fine too.  

The rule of thumb in connecting audio components is that you want the output impedance of the driving stage to be about 1/10 of the input impedance of the driven stage.  This goes for preamplifiers driving amplifiers, amplifiers driving speakers, etc.  In the phono world, it's even a looser relationship.  Ratios much lower than 1/10, e.g., 1/100 and lower often work fine.  Likewise, you can sometimes break the rule and use a higher ratio of output to input impedance (e.g., >1/10).  The only thing bad that can then happen is you eventually lose high frequency response and gain.  Anyway, with the Urushi, a 1:10 SUT, and a 47K load, you are in very safe territory.

@lewm I am thinking about mounting my Urushi in my FR64S with an Orsonic AV101 headshell.

@nandric  The (heavy) Orsonic  AV 101 is my favourite.

I’m looking for the headshell to mount my Miyabi cartridge, actually i’ve been looking for Orsonic AV101B (black), i have AV101S (silver) in original box on its way.

Anyone would like to swap black for silver ?

There is something in design of this headshell that i like, but maybe my AudioCraft is even better.

Why the Orsonic is so popular ?