I would like to hear from folks that either own or have heard any of the German Physiks Speakers, preferably the Carbon or Borderland.Both being MK 4 versions with the latest triple D drivers.
I have either one of these unique speakers near the top of my short list but with too many unknowns with a speaker this expensive,I will probably have to make a trip to see Larry owner of Distinctive Stereo and get a good look and demo.
The HRS-120 might be a candidate also at a lesser price point.
I have been a German Physiks satisfied owner for the last 15 years and due to my corporate career I had 5 residences in the US, Europe and the Middle East, thus I owned multiple pairs. I just retired and have consolidated everything in the US. I believe that German Physiks are unique designs and the people that own them, many musicians and conductors as well, keep them for life. For most people is a destination speaker. I have made some videos on my YouTube channel to provide an idea on their sound. Please use headphones for better results. I am currently in discussion with German Physiks to become their distributor in the US. If you are in Dallas, I will be happy to have a coffee with you and listen to music.
In the links below I have recorded some tracks on the PQS-302 and HRS-120 with two different set ups. The first with Ypsilon Electronics Phaethon integrated amplifier and the second with German Physiks' own Emperor Stereo Power amplifier. Phaethon is a hybrid amp and the German Physiks is SS. They also play well with tubes provided the amp is stable at 2.5-4 Ohm load.
I just had the chance to directly compare the HRS130 set up with my McIntoshes with a 25W tube amp from Unison Research (very decent, but not explicitly high end). While the HRS130 are very fast, they are not particularly efficient (87db/W/m) and usually are being not considered optimal for a smaller tube amp as compared to e.g. horn speakers. However, I have to say that the Unison has really made a good impression on me and my audio buddy in direct comparison with my McIntoshes. Also, power was not an issue in the 50 sqm room.
The tube generated more room (than the impressive stage the speakers had provided already), a deeper and wider sound stage and a fine resolution particularly in the mid range. Is it possible that this easy-to-spot difference is due to the fact that the GP speakers do not have a cross over filters splitting the midrange, and a warm tube amp with a pronounced midrange can take advantage of that? Mere speculation!
Anyway, three hours of intense listening and I have just ordered a DECWARE Torii Mk5 expecting that this should be an even more pronounced improvement. Unfortunately, it will be under the Xmas tree in 2023, if I am lucky.
@audition__audio...I think it's not really fair to say that GP speakers put the Ohms to shame without noting the huge price differences, somewhere on the order of 5 times or more. I have always referred to my beloved Ohm Walsh 2000s as poor man's Radialstrahlers, and the same can be said for Ohms vs. German Physicks. I have heard several GP models, and if I could afford them, I might replace my Ohms with them. But when I fire up my rig with my Ohms, I don't feel bad at all. Just the opposite, in fact.
I’ve heard GP at shows. Nice but not enough to lure me off Ohms. Also GP are full Omni in the higher frequencies and Ohm is not. Ohm is designed to go closer to walls in rooms like most people have whereas full omnis require more distance from walls typically and are not as user friendly to set up well.
Agree the live like natural coherent sound of the Ohms is what makes them unique and special. Also the price which is a fraction of similar GP or mbl.
I have a set of Ohm 1000s in a 13 X 25' room with a vaulted ceiling and the sound is extraordinary -- the best I've ever had in any of my homes. (I should have a larger model but brought these from another house with a smaller room and didn't feel like trading up so added a small sub.)
My reference point is acoustic music, though I also enjoy music with amplified instruments. The Ohms have a natural sound and realistic soundstage -- nothing oversized. They do a much nicer job of sounding like live music than anything else I've had. Yes, placement is important, but I've found that is also important with the box speakers I've owned previously.
I'd like to hear a set of GPs but, at their price point, I have no interest in buying a pair when I'm getting so much enjoyment from the setup I currently have.
Of course, as they say with EPA mileage estimates for cars, YMMV. ;-)
Omnis are not to my liking but the German Physics put the Ohms to shame. Never heard any of the Ohms or G.P.s with tubes and would guess they would need S.S. Back in college my friend started one or both (cant remember) of his Ohm Fs on fire. He was using bridged Hafler amps.
I own a pair of German Physiks HRS-130 since 2 months (my audio components are McIntosh C28 and MC2105 and MCD201, i.e. older models). I stared using Qobuz streaming service with a Bluesound Node streamer that has received good recommendations . As speakers, I had Dynaudio Contour 1.3 for years (before they were bought and ruined by a Chinese company that bought them) and was quite happy with them. Our speaker „project“ started when our kids visited. They exclusively stream, and so we learned to discover a whole world of high-quality music beyond the (own old) CD collections and do listen much more attentively now. Consequently, this led to the question of new speakers.
It took me some time to listen to lots of speakers and hanging around HiFi shops etc… After listening to B&W 804D4 and 803D4, Sonus Faber Olympia Novica II and III, DAL Rubicon 8 and Epicon 6, I was ready to go with the 804D4 as the most reasonable choice for the money limit we set; very good, but there was a little nagging feeling left. They have a hard tweeter sound and they do loose a lot when listening at low volumes (although not as much as smaller B&W and the Sonus Faber). Then, roaming around in various forums brought Avantgarde Acoustics and German as alternative brands. The ZEROs were to harsh and bass-heavy with their active bass driver, and my wife liked the UNO better. But while the horn is very impressive in its dynamics (more than the speakers mentioned above, their bass somehow trails behind the higher frequencies (also, the sound is far from neutral; while this is fun first, it gets strenuous after a while). Impressive speaker though with their colorful 20“ horns.
In contrast, I knew after 10 min that it would be GP for me after listening to the HRS-130. Also, the technology is fascinating providing an audio stage not comparable with anything I have heard so far in any speaker (no need to sit fixed in the sweet spot in front of the speakers). The upper Carbon Cone chassis covers the frequencies between 190 and 22 kHz. To my knowledge, there is no coparable system to this chassis. Its DDD technology does not require a acoustic lenses like in the Duevel, which has an ordinary chassis facing down on the lens to disperse the sound. The 10 inch woofer in the base of the speaker faces down as well and almost functions like a subwoofer (for my living room of around 55 sqm the HRS-130 is ample (for larger rooms the larger Borderland would add more oomph to the bass, but it is not required). The sound is just rich, and together with the resolution and the incredible sound stage, it is the nicest mix I know. You can listen for hours on end without getting tired. Particularly, for the classical music it is impressive. An important aspect for us is that at low volumes, most of the music is still there and does not sound flat like in the other speakers I listened to. Also, try to sit behind or to the side of the speakers with any other brand. Here, hardly a difference in the sound experience. GP speakers are not too critical to place (approx.1,5m from either wall). I have experimented somewhat with the placement, but stopped after a while, because the differences did not seem significant at some point. Last comment on the sound: These speakers will reveal bad recordings merciless. You loose the incredible sound stage, to which you quickly get accustomed, and you will notice this more than with other speakers, I believe. So, you can tell, I converted to a fan.
It is also the incredible build quality: some examples: the speaker surface is not painted or foiled, but consists of an 8mm thick colored polyester coat (mine are black), which is then sanded and polished to generate a mirror-like finish similar to a Steinway grand piano. The case is appr. 40 kg, and a resonance building-up is compensated by a Helmholtz resonator in the body that neutralizes sound waves by converting them to heat. Some of the screws are machined for these speakers to meet the required specifications. Screws are fitted using a torque wrench. Look at the terminals and the Bi-wiring jumpers mounted; serious heavy duty stuff compared with the flimsy things you get with most of the other brands. GP gives a 20 year warranty on these things, and should you want to sell them (note that there is almost no second life market for GP products - that may tell you something, too), they offer to check them, repolish them and then issue you a factory certificate. Their service is exceptional, because Holger Müller, the founder of GP is a crazy enthusiast in the best sense, who hates compromises. Look at their Emperor line of amplifiers (incredible stuff).
These speakers are costly, but not expensive if compared to other brands in this price bracket - for me they are close to perfect. Now, that´s it! I usually do not write commentaries, but here is a great product that I thought audio enthusiasts may be interested in reading about, although everything is subjective, of course .
I have been a happy Duevel Bella Luna owner for over 20 years. Exact positioning is key to getting accurate soundstage and sizing. Duevels are happily driven by SETs ( I use a Wavac Ec300b with 10W per channel), German Physics is substantially more power hungry. I use the Duevels in combination with Murata ES 103a supertweeters which has a wonderful effect on image specificity and -believe it or not- bass reproduction. I have in 20 years not been tempted by another speaker. I have bass traps in the corners of my smallish (300sqft) room as well as sound insulation on the ceiling and heavy carpet.
I heard Duevel Bella Luna Diamantés recently in Paris (hifi-video) but just in the main shop as I hadn’t booked a demo. The amplification was on the cheap side (1/10th cost of the speakers and it showed with a rather hard sound but they did show promise. I was more interested in the Sirius but there wasn’t one there to hear. The guy in the shop said the Sirius needed at least a 60 square metre room to work in and my new place will have i living room of around 50 sq metres, he suggested I also consider German Physiks HRS-130, I could stretch to borderlands if there was an advantage in that. I’m after a large scale sound for symphonic music but don’t want ten foot guitars when playing a bit of folk or rock and the Bella Lunas scaled very well to the recording.
My amplification is Naim 500 series so should have no trouble driving them but I do wonder if it’s a good sonic match to GP, it’s certainly an unusual one and I’ve not found any dealers who overlap in France or the UK but then there aren’t very many GP dealers in either. There are a couple of positive reviews using lower end Naim with Duevel Bella Lunas.
I have been lucky enough to hear the German Physics omni’s but there is another German made Omni that I’ve been curious about and would love to hear. Duevel makes a line of Omni speakers but no longer has any sales reps in North America. Only occasionally do I see one come up for sale on the used market. These remind me of the Decware ERRx speakers I once had but maybe more refined? Has anyone heard these?
I’ve had the G-P UUs for about a year after 40 years of woofers and tweeters (and Maggie’s and dipoles). With a good class D amp I may have reached the endgame of my search for pinnacle home speakers. Added subs to tweak the bass thanks to the freedom of room placement that subs offer. Let’s just say I don’t turn on the TV most nights any more- the world of music via Roon is that satisfying.
I own a pair of Ohm 1000s and really enjoy them. I find that they produce a realistic sized, stable image. One of my favorite attributes of the Ohms is that I do not have to stay put in a small sweet spot in order to hear them at their best. It's great to have many people in the room and that all of them can enjoy the music at its best.
I am not certain if you already acquired a pair of speakers but I can give you my experience on GP. I own several GP speakers (since 2009), including Borderland and 120. Obviously Borderland is more extended and IMHO, one of the best speakers ever made. My favorite is the Unicorn even though does not have the lows of the Borderland. All three models are recommended with no hesitation. They have natural voicing, excellent presentation, able to play large symphonies and keep rhythm well. Also, they handle high volume and peaks without stress or distortion. Amplification used is FM acoustics, Vitus Audio and Concert Fidelity. I hope it helps in your decision making.
Not a bad idea, and they look pretty clean. Just look around at the big auction site, where many pairs are offered at much lower prices (although not this model, and not in as good a shape as these).
Phusis there are some tube amps I like and others I find too limited. The ones I like tend to be able to do well with electronic as well as acoustic music. Of course I could say the same about SS amps. I do use a tube pre-amp (Audio Research sp16) in my system.
The tube amps I hear that I do like also tend to be playing with speakers that mate up to them well, often not the same ones I would choose with a SS amp.
So two different worlds really. I would never use a tube amp with the GP. The ones up to the task would likely be way too big and expensive, run hot, and consume loads of power.
Those who lean towards tube amps are not likely to go the German Physics or mbl way. But they will also end up with very good sound just in a different manner. Some like OHMs with tube amp and sub I know but not sure I would do that myself either.
@phusis - I don’t dispute that you heard what you heard when you listened to the HRS-120. I would only mention that, I think, GP has made significant revisions to its DDD driver, and I think the HRS-120 included an older version. When I heard the speakers, also in a very large space, both the Limiteds and the Borderlands (both with the current version of the DDD drivers) were very dynamic, engaging and life-like. Of course, there were many other variables, and YMMV. I also think that omnis vary in their sonic character just as much as dynamic or panel speakers do. There are dozens of variables, so I would not judge all omnis by the HRS-120 anymore than I would judge all dynamic speakers from hearing just one of them. There may be general family resemblances, but they can sound quite different from one another.
[...] Omni’s cannot be beat for their large sweet spot and ability to image coherently regardless of listening positioning. If a live like presentation even on studio and/or mono recordings and coherent imaging most anywhere in the room does not appeal, probably no good reason to consider omnis.
A "live like presentation" and "... coherent imaging most anywhere in the room" would definitely appeal to me, but I find fault in equating omnis like the GP into being "live like" in presentation simply from those traits mentioned. They may be aspects of live-like sound, but very little of what I heard from the GP HRS-120 made me think of a sound character in that ballgame. For that to happen there’d have to be a very different magnitude of dynamics, scale and ease (not to mention overall coherency and presence/immediacy, certainly through the central midrange), and to accommodate this I’d wager the GP’s would have benefitted from a smaller size listening room compared to where I heard them, though I’m certain it would only have helped them so much. It’s not that I can’t appreciate an omni-presentation that relies heavily on the contribution of a given room’s acoustics/boundaries as "opposed" to a directivity-laden "through the window" type of sound that involves reflections to a lesser degree from the likes of horns, but if GP is largely representative of omni sound it’s too malnourished a sonic meal to my taste.
(The only GP I’ve heard was last November at CAF. The sound was spot on. Very neutral tonal balance and somewhat laid back perhaps but not overtly so.) I believe they were using good qualiy (Veritas?) Class D amps (as I do with my OHMs) which surely imparted much of the tonality. Fans of warm sounding tube amps with lush midrange (not me I tend to prefer accuracy) would not be impressed in that regard.
I can’t buy into the "[quality] tube amp not equaling neutrality/accuracy" dichotomy; on the contrary, I’d say. The harmonic structure and texture, liquidity, tonality, sheer dynamic explosiveness/uninhibited-ness and natural fullness of good, lower wattage SET’s (preferably through higher efficiency speakers) to my ears takes the price towards a natural (I favor this term over "neutrality"), live-like presentation compared to many if not most solid state offerings with typically less efficient speakers. Good SET’s seem to lower my "reproduction"-guard and more into something that is simply there, with an element of simplicity or wholeness that downplays any dissecting tendencies of what’s heard. To me at least this is very much akin to witnessing an acoustic live event.
The only GP I’ve heard was last November at CAF. The sound was spot on. Very neutral tonal balance and somewhat laid back perhaps but not overtly so. I believe they were using good qualiy (Veritas?) Class D amps (as I do with my OHMs) which surely imparted much of the tonality. Fans of warm sounding tube amps with lush midrange (not me I tend to prefer accuracy) would not be impressed in that regard. Soundstage and imaging indicated the muscians playing in the front part of the room with good soundstage depth. Like good omnis always tend to do. I heard nothing to fault. There was a large crowd listening intently. The sound was not like anything else I heard there. Of course every room sounded different and each will have unique leanings. That’s what makes the world go round. Omni’s cannot be beat for their large sweet spot and ability to image coherently regardless of listening positioning. If a live like presentation even on studio and/or mono recordings and coherent imaging most anywhere in the room does not appeal, probably no good reason to consider omnis.
I heard one of the German Physiks speakers some years ago, I believe it was the HRS-120, at a dealer. He'd received a used pair as part of a trade deal (they weren't on his usual brand repertoire), and we compared them to a pair of hORNS Mummy's - Polish speakers with a 12" OSWG waveguide (fitted with a 1" exit compression driver) and 12" bass/midrange, all placed in a fiberglass enclosure. I remember this listening session in particular because I've rarely, if ever heard speakers sounding this different compared to one another. My initial and distinct impression was that the German Physiks speakers were... an odd encounter. I then spent some time trying to get my head around their sonic imprinting, but after a while had to give in to the feeling of them simply being a major disappointment - not least considering their high price (some $30,000/pair). The one deficit to come to my mind repeatedly was that they lacked midrange presence and overall immediacy (in effect also: balance and coherency), as if a big suck-out and lack of energy through the entire central mids section marred the presentation here. The bass felt deep and fairly articulated, but seemed to struggle at more elevated levels (hardly over 90dB's), and the upper mids and highs were well-resolved and quite smooth - certainly the best part of their sound. If anything they sounded "sophisticated," and spatial abilities were in some regards noteworthy, but I sorely missed natural presence, coherency, and a more rhythmically astute aspect to their sound. Indeed to my ears they sounded strangely "fluffy" and somewhat diffuse, and I never really got to appreciate the qualities they did have. To each their own, I guess, but this is close to the antithesis of what I'm looking for sound-wise.
@kdude66 - Tulsa, eh? Well, all I can suggest is that you contact John Strohbeen at Ohm and/or Larry Borden at Distinctive Stereo. Maybe they can reach out to someone in your area who owns these speakers and see if they'd be willing to invite you in for a demo. You never know.
I just got done restoring a pair of Borderland Mark 1's (new DDD's from factory), these are my first Omni's, and I love them. However, they are very current hungry and work better with SS, so I rolled the dice and tried powering them with a McCormack DNA-1. Wallah! Great match!. Controlled with Mark Levinson 26 pre and sources PS Audio PWD/PWT. This overall combination sounds very nice for a secondary system playing CD's.
I've never really gone in for the common idea that omnis are by nature "not accurate" particularly in terms of soundstaging and imaging. As if on a direct radiator you "hear the REAL image contained in the recording" but on the omni you don't.
I've mad many speakers of all types, and even right now I have Thiel 3.7s, 2.7s, Waveform monitors, and others....as well as a pair of MBL 121 omnis.
The MBLs show me all the same relative information as any of the more direct radiating speakers do. If a voice is panned hard to one speaker...there it is. If it's just slightly behind and to the right...there it is. I can simply hear the spatial relationships more distinctly, with more dimensionality, and with the sense of the speaker "disappearing" vs most direct radiators.
In fact, generally speaking, the more a direct radiating speaker has controlled dispersion, cabinet distortions etc, the "better" they soundstage in terms of disappearing as sound sources, and rendering depth and dimensionality. In other words....the more like the MBLs. My Thiel 3.7s are just about the most "invisible" and best imaging box speakers I've owned, and they are the ones that sound most like the MBLs in terms of soundstaging and imaging.
@kdude66 - Where are you located? You never know when aother audiogoner near you has a speaker you'd like to hear. I have opened my doors to people who want to hear Ohms in my area.
Gentlemen, Keep your opinion’s coming and I’m still reading all I can find on the subject. I know at some point I’m just going to have to go and hear some,unfortunately no one has any kind of Omni near me.
Omnis project sound and deliver sound stage and imaging MORE like what occurs in live un-amplified music. That’s the unique appeal. If the actual performers were in your room, they would be affected by acoustics more similarly. The nature of the soundstage and imaging totally depends on the room acoustics and seating location as well as the nature of the gear upstream, as is the case with any truly revealing speaker design. Early reflections are always a problem to avoid and omnis must be placed further from walls to avoid that than more directional speakers. OHm Walsh are not full omni’s however and are designed to be placed closer to walls to work better in most people's homes. OHM will customize most anything though if requested.
Bondman I would agree OHMs are poor mans GP or MBL based solely on the cost differential. Each does things quite differently though so not a strict apples/apples comparison. Should not be hard to hear the differences among the three.
@audiotroy - Exactly. The reason I suggested the OP read through that huge Ohm Walsh thread was to get a feel for the kind of audiophile that likes the omni presentation, the pros and cons of it. It was that thread that lead me to try an in-home demo of the Ohms. For my taste, there was enough image specificity. There might not be enough for everyone.
I do beg to differ on the room treatment issue with omnis, though. Too much absorption defeats the whole point of an omni. The sound is supposed to bounce off the room surfaces; that is what creates the large soundstage. In my room, singers are properly sized on good recordings, with the singer’s apparent hieght at about 5.5’. They may produce images a little larger than life, but I prefer that to the miniaturized images many speakers produce. I actually have removed some of the absorption panels I had up from when I had more conventional dynamic speakers. I have a 60" plasma TV behind and in the middle of the Ohms. Covering this with a thick blanket actually sounds worse than just leaving it alone. I do plan on adding more diffusion, since my room is smaller than I would like, but the point is, I think, that as long as they are not too close to the adjacent walls, omnis should be allowed to bounce their sound off of them.
I would never expect an audio reviewer to use omnis as a review tool. Dispassionate neutrality is not really what omnis and their fans are all about. As JV of TAS would say, these are speakers by and for the "as you like it" crowd. I make no apologies for being a part of that crowd. I hear a lot of loudspeakers in the course of a year, and with rare exceptions, none of them that I can afford appeal to me as much as my Ohms. After all, if there were only one "correct" speaker, eveyone would own the same thing. But everyone hears differently and, as you said, values different aspects of reproduced sound differently.
You are either an Omni guy or not. We have heard pretty much every major omni, the MBL really are the best Omni on the market. WIth that being said most Omni's all suffer from the same problem they really don;'t work in real world envionrments.
An Omni is going to produce a gigantic swath of sound which bounces off all surfaces, this does create a giant yet unfocused sound.
Unless you can really tame all the room boundary effects or you love an oversized image which has no basis of reality then Omni's all the way.
It is interesting to note almost every single audio reviewer owns a direct radiating loudspeaker, why because they work in real world rooms and they produce life like well sized images. The only genre an Omni might be better would be orchestral music.
It’s a long slog, but if you want a feel for what the Ohm’s are like, the only thing that would be more helpful would be an in-home demo (Ohm offers a 120-day in home trial, but you lose the round-trip shipping). Mapman may disagree, but I have long called my 2000s the "poor man’s German Physiks or MBL Radialstrahler". But the gap in sound, IMHO, is not nearly as large as the gap in price.
kdude the newer OHM Walshes and GPs are very similar in that regard. However both are two way designs not one driver with only physical crossovers like the original Fs. It turned out to be almost impossible to deliver a long lasting durable and reliable product that way. GP uses Walsh principles on the higher frequencies, OHM Walsh on the lower. GP and OHM F both are/were true omnidirectional designs. OHM Walsh only somewhat in that side and rear sound is physically attenuated with sound absorbing materials inside the can to enable placement somewhat close to walls which works better for most in most rooms.
This is the one guy who I think still tries and claims to have solved the issues with original OHM A and F. Have never heard but would like to.
I would like to Thank all that have responded to my inquiry about these speakers from actual listening experience.
It’s been many yrs that I’ve heard a Omni of any kind and that would be the classic Ohm Walsh F’s.If my memory of these is correct,I do recall that they were very coherent speaking with one voice with a very large almost anywhere in the room stage but what was different was the imaging is different,not so pinpoint as most speakers.
The GP’s do pop up used from time to time,might be out of the USA,and Larry does have demo pairs for sale occasionally.
If you guys have any more solid info about the latest Ohm’s,I would like to hear about it.
If I get serious about the GP’s,due to their cost which is a serious commitment for me,I will have to take a trip and listen to them.
I liked the GPs at CAp Audiofest very much, as much as anything I heard there, but gotta say, sitting here listening to my big OHM F5s that I scored for a fraction of retail even after wheeling and dealing, some serious A/B compares would be needed for me to be sure which way I would go, especially given the cost differential. The omni top end of the GPS compared to the OHMs definitely mean tougher placement away from walls. Maybe with the right room......
I have heard two models, the Unlimited (now discontinued, IIRC) and the Borderland Mk IV, on separate occasions at Distinctive Stereo in River Vale, NJ (the U.S. distributor for GP). Disclaimer: I am a happy Ohm Walsh 2000 owner (since 2009), and I adore the omni style of loudspeakers for what they do in general. The GPs are my dream speaker, in that they take the Ohm Walsh concept, and basically remove a lot of the cost constraints that Ohm's John Strohbeen works with to create more affordable omni designs. The GPs are simply wonderful. Smooth, yet detailed, great imaging, yet they disappear as a sound source into a massive 3-D soundstage. Good bass (although I am a bass freak who would never be without subs). Amazing dynamic range, both macro and micro, and the transient detail is Goldilocks - enough to sound real, but without shoving them down your throat. But I will say that hearing them gave me new appreciation for my Ohms, in that they do a lot of the things the GPs do, albeit not quite as well in any area, for a fraction of the price. But I will keep buying lottery tickets. You never know!
They were best sound contenders for me at Capital AudioFest last year. That was the first I got to hear them. I am an omni guy with OHM Walsh speakers in my main hifi. Omni presentation is different more like a live performance. May take getting used to at first but maybe no going back for some. Placement not too close to walls or other reflective surfaces matters with true omnis.
They have a huge sweet spot and sound best out tword the middle of the room or at least away from walls. I own the much less expensive Decware ERRx radial speakers and they sound best this way also.
I have only heard them at shows and they have certainly been at every show I’ve ever attended. Strangely, I have heard them sound so incredibly good, amongst the best sound I’ve heard and then I’ve also heard them sound really just so so at different times. Once in the same setup I heard them sound very sweet with a good vinyl setup and they switched to digital with lesser material. It then sounded like crap.
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