Acme Audio fuse holders, which I used to have back when I had fuses, are not only silver plated but cryo’d. Fuses should also be cryo’d for best results. Everything should be cryo’d. Almost all high end cable manufacturers routinely Cryo their cables. You have to if you want to compete in the marketplace.
Fuses fuses fuses
Ok, this is about fuses
1- a standard Bussman fuse is UL approved. Are any "high end" fuses UL approved?
2- do any component manufacturers supply their gear with any of the usual suspects of high end fuses as opposed to a standard Bussman?
3- let's say fuses do make a difference. Given incoming power is AC, why could fuses be directional?
Not meaning to light any fires here-
thanks in advance
1- a standard Bussman fuse is UL approved. Are any "high end" fuses UL approved?
2- do any component manufacturers supply their gear with any of the usual suspects of high end fuses as opposed to a standard Bussman?
3- let's say fuses do make a difference. Given incoming power is AC, why could fuses be directional?
Not meaning to light any fires here-
thanks in advance
244 responses Add your response
My mother ... an 8th grade drop out in the 30's taught me two very relevant lessons in life ... she was the person most responsible for teaching me all about Osmosis
IMO the higher the percentage of less conductive alloy the more comprised the performance of the conductor
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It takes a certain depth of self awareness and intellect to derive the given point in logic, and it’s origins in the world of logic. The vaster components of human reality reject it (ie the bulk of humanity), due to the origins of ’mind’ ...and logic being formed and ensconced in mind and body.... but that does not make it any less true. If one researches this given point, that is what they will find. The concept of objective reality has been useful, yes, but it remains a concept -- and by all logic, cannot slip the confines of subjective origin and carrier. It’s sort of a ’round about way of saying that observation cannot be dismissed... and the very incomplete science of engineering in audio is not an ultimate truth. This question of fuses, for example, has multiple complexities in it's envelope of points and ’facts’, and only when the bulk of them have been properly worked out, does a more clear answer emerge. This is not a ’first past the post’ kind of endeavor with regard to defining and reaching an answer. Even a three year old can tell you who won a horse race, and this question and answer set of ’fuses in audio’ is as far from such a simple concept as a horse race -as you can imagine. The number of variables are not overly high and do not present too much complexity, but mind, ahhh..mind... the given mind in the question and data sets which might potentially be discerned....~that~ is another matter altogether. |
"It is always good to remember that 'objectivity' in all derivations of the word and it's attached vectors and meanings..... exists solely at the will, whim, desires, aims, and projected stance - of an exclusively subjective reality." This should be patently clear to all that this the type of newspeak namby-pamby that clouds discussion obscures meaning and denies the very existance of science. If this claim were true there would no way to launch a satellite into orbit no way to develop a new antibiotic and in fact no way to even balance a simple checkbook. This is the type of "theory" that is used by deniers of all persuations to further their agenda without letting facts such as well settled science get in the way but of course it is not a "theory" at all it is nonsensical posturing. |
It is always good to remember that ’objectivity’ in all derivations of the word and it’s attached vectors and meanings..... exists solely at the will, whim, desires, aims, and projected stance - of an exclusively subjective reality. Objectivity is a projection. All forms of science attached to the leading edges, defining standards, fundamental concepts and historical backdrop of all human endeavor state this point unequivocally. Except for the technical aspects of engineering and the nature of it's schooling and collective methodologies. Such proponents, adherents, and mental leanings of a specific sort of mind of those who lean in that direction... they are taught that objective reality exists, or that it is implied within such a given collective envelope... that objective reality somehow -exists. It does not. |
A placebo effect wouldn't compel me to defeat the tone controls of my integrated to offset the now, too high treble boost. Nor would it extend the soundstage permanently, instead of occasionally, beyond my speakers. Nor would it alleviate the upper mid bass emphasis (which I thought was a permanent feature due to rear porting and close front wall placement). I could go on but the naysayers would write it off as a sort of delusion, which is pure and unadulterated crap. One of the main tenets of scientific study is that it is repeatable, by OTHERS. So, get off your butts and try it for yourself, and stop quoting the bits of "science" that gives you the warm and fuzzies but amounts to nothing more than another dose of "weak tea" reasoning. All the best, really, Nonoise |
Geoff, Don't waste your time or energy on these irrational people. It's typical of this generation to think they're right whether they tried things out for themselves or not. It's like my son-in-law who thinks everything he reads on the internet is gospel. I just sit back and watch him make a fool of himself. As the old saying goes 'experience is the best teacher'. |
Almarg, let me give you a little logic lesson if I can be so bold. Just because there are a lot of variables doesn’t mean that fuses are not directional. Capish? If you guys were really interested in the truth rather than arguing til you’re blue in the face you’d have done the experiment yourselves a long time ago. The other variables can be controlled. Like the placebo effect, whatever. Don’t you know that? Note to self: Why do naysayers, the uber skeptics , the practitioners of uber careful pseudo logic always demand that believers must be the ones testing for fuse directionality? Why don’t naysayers test for themselves? Wouldn’t that be uh, more convincing for them? I mean, why would these uber skeptic’s even believe any test by a True Believer? It doesn’t make sense. Yet the demands for tests, especially the silly double blind ones. Give me a break! Tests are for sissies. My guess is the pseu-pseu-pseudo scientists don’t want to be found wrong and be the laughing stock of all the other self-appointed shepards of the pseudo audiophile flock. This whole anti fuse directionality movement is really a big nothing burger. 🍔 |
First, to be sure it’s clear, the point of contention in this thread does not concern the efficacy of fuse upgrades. It concerns the OP’s question no. 3, regarding fuse directionality. And in that regard there appears to be a reasonably compelling body of anecdotal evidence, especially in the long-running Synergistic Red Fuse thread, that changing the direction of a fuse can make a difference, even if it is an AC mains fuse. However, the problem is that establishing that changing the direction of a fuse makes a difference does not establish that a fuse is inherently directional, as many seem to automatically assume. One does not necessarily follow from the other, especially given Ralph’s empirical findings that I cited above (which he reported to be both measurable and audible), and also given that in the opinion of many of those having an extensive background in electronic design there is no means by which that is possible. As I put it in my post in the Synergistic Red Fuse thread that I referred to earlier: [Inherent directionality in fuses] is fundamentally irreconcilable with any reasonable understanding of how electronic circuits work. Which is not to say, of course, that an understanding of how electronic circuits work can explain or predict everything about what we hear or don’t hear from our systems. It certainly can’t. But it can often help to provide a perspective on what does or does not have a reasonable possibility of being audibly significant.... And again, none of this is to say that I doubt the accuracy of most of the reported perceptions, it just means that in cases where those perceptions are accurate I believe that the cause was something else.When the direction of a fuse is reversed all of the following variables, or at least potential variables, are being changed simultaneously: 1)Contact area. 2)Contact pressure. 3)Contact resistance. 4)Oxidation between the mating surfaces. 5)Warm-up state of the equipment. 6)Contents of "volatile" digital memory elements that may be present in the design (i.e., memory elements that don’t retain information when power is removed). 7)The states of other circuitry that may undergo re-initialization at turn-on. 8)Probably other variables that I haven’t thought of. 9)The direction of the element in the fuse. In order to conclude and legitimately be able to claim that no. 9 is responsible for the difference that is heard, given especially what I and four different experienced designers of well regarded audio electronics have said in posts here which **strongly** point away from that possibility (again, see my post dated 10-28-2016 in the Synergistic Red Fuse thread), at the very least it is necessary to reverse and re-reverse the fuse multiple times, reinserting it each time with varying rotational orientation. To verify that the perceived difference is repeatable, and that it is not due to the phenomenon Ralph has reported, or to other variables. And as I and Davehrab both said earlier, it appears that no one posting in any of the various fuse-related threads here who has claimed to have found that fuses are directional has done that. Which is understandable, given that significant time and effort would be required to do so with reasonable thoroughness. What is not understandable, though, to me at least, is failure to recognize that any of the other variables I listed may be responsible. Regards, -- Al |
I'm not one who frequents these forums often, but I do reflect my observations and results that work with my system. It seems the same parties are always contraversial and negative without being objective. Being trained as an engineer, I've always kept an open mind and made my evaluations after many attempts in order to come to decision. I use the same procedures for evaluating equipment and tweaks in the 40+ years of being a music ethusiast. Concerning fuses, I tried at various occasions reversing the direction on all my equipment one at a time. I also reversed the order so I wouldn't be sucked into the placebo effect. As a result I did hear some differences when the fuses were reversed. I tried not to look at the position/ direction of the fuse but always came back to the same results even weeks later. I also did the same tests with various fuses. I tried fuses from HiFi Tuning, Synergistic Red and Black and Audio Horizons on different occasions and directions. The Audio Horizons worked best for my system, but that's my opinion. What is interesting, the stock fuse worked best in my previously owned PS Audio P3 power condition. So what I'm stating is be opened minded and evaluate for yourself. Every system is different and so are our ears. Just enjoy the music............ |
"East is east and west is west and never the twain shall meet" Geoff, well stated and true. Terry9 I can tell you that the upgrade fuses are clearly effective in my system. However you’d likely remain skeptical based on your own inherent bias and preformed opinion. I understand that and it’s okay with me. East vs west 😊. I will agree with you regarding spending money where you believe it’s appropriate and justified. That’s what I did and am very pleased. This criteria will naturally vary amongst us all. If we're both satisfied with our respective audio systems, all is good in the final analysis. Charles |
Terry9 I found Ralph’s explanation of the phenomenon to be convincing. And it would be very easy to test. Anyone who wanted to bother only needs to repeat the experiment many times with randomization, and count. I suggest a paradigm known as ’two alternative forced choice’. Elementary statistics would do the rest. OK, so if it would be "very easy to test" how come none of you guys ever bother to test it? Talk is cheap. And if it takes a test to prove directionality how come you guys have made up your minds already? Who do you think is going to test it, NASA? Besides I’ve got a sneaking suspicion you guys would not believe or would find fault with any test and or test results presented to you, as long as the results were not in accordance with your preconceived notions of time and space - Just as you guys have with the test results of fuse directionality found in the data sheets on the HiFi Tuning website. Yeah, I know what you’re thinking, what test results? Right? You guys always seem to find some little nit to pick when the results don’t comport with your preconceived worldview. East is east and west is west and never the twain shall meet. |
Charles, a hundred years of experimental psychology has evolved very strong paradigms for dealing with experimenter bias, subject bias, and confounding factors. It is easy for those with expertise in engineering or mathematics to dismiss these advances, but that would be a mistake. The experimental tools are there. These tools can be used to demonstrate heretofore unsuspected effects. Doing so is good for careers. The absence of an effect which can be repeated in the lab is evidence against the existence of that effect. Not proof. Just evidence. I find Ralph's explanation of the phenomenon to be convincing. And it would be very easy to test. Anyone who wanted to bother only needs to repeat the experiment many times with randomization, and count. I suggest a paradigm known as 'two alternative forced choice'. Elementary statistics would do the rest. As I said before, there's lots of places to park money in this hobby, lots of places where everyone agrees. That's where I spend money. |
Hello Terry9, Deception can of course work in both directions (pun intended). One can convince themselves they hear something that may or may not exist. Conversely one can convince themselves that there can’t possibly be a difference to hear based on any manner of preconceived notions. Science is indeed wonderful but is "still" woeful" in explaining the very complex human hearing mechanism/pathways. What the ear can detect is far ahead and of what man can currently measure and quantify. We’ll get there one day. Charles |
The integrity of the electrical path is very important. For example, a properly bedded fuse sounds better than a breaker; but a breaker is capable of breaking more than one line at a time, even if a fault is detected on only one line. This can be vitally important with +/- power supplies. While I think it is possible that exotic fuses sound different, nothing in physical theory tells me that fuses should have directionality. I doubt that anyone has done a scientific, double blind study of directionality, while controlling all the ways that the human mind can find to deceive itself. Until such time, I am skeptical of the assertion that fuses have directionality. I will certainly not pay for anything which is unlikely to make a difference according to physical theory, and which has no support in experimental evidence. There are many ways to spend 6 figures and get a demonstrable improvement at every turn. That's my path. YMMV |
@geoffkait I don’t want to put words in Ralph’s mouth, either, but I’m pretty sure he’s not really on board the whole fuse directionality train. His argument is (and I suppose he could possibly be accused of fence sitting on fuse directionality) that when someone flips the fuse it somehow magically gets a better grip in the fuse holder. Cough, cough As I recall the other fence sitter Almarg agrees with Ralph in this regard.Thanks, Geoff, that was what he said! bob |
Labels are very important. Proper label -- proper dough. More labels -- more dough. Feel yer pepil dumb, unaware and unsavvy from gettin’ fake and keep on labeling so dis dummies keep buyin yer labels. You can do that with bag of rocks like @geoffkait does -- just have the right label. Selling fake very often more profitable than selling drugs or guns, so buying bunch of nice lookin’ fuses from major electrical/electronic distributor dosen per buck with proper labeling equipment will fill up your bank super GOOD coz you can sell’m $25...75 each or so... Where else you can find profit to make from $1 12x$25...$75?? When I think about simple math equations, I kill all the science behind with just simple numbers. I guess It's time to go dhgate or alibaba to see if any of those beauties can be purchased to resell! Please note that LABELS for me not only trade mark, It’s also all applied publishing including reviews and rumors. |
Zavato, I understand, honestly there will be various descriptions of what different listeners have heard. Your experience may in fact be quite different from mine. I've no desire to convince or persuade anyone of anything as it is a fruitless effort. I just state my individual listening experience and others can accept or reject as they see fit. Most folks will appreciate the reality that a topic such as this yields plenty of opinions and no universal consensus. Charles |
The placement of the fuses regarding direction is random. In my DAC and Line Stage the initial placement was better than when I subsequently reversed them. With my mono block amplifiers reversing the initial placement led to an improved sound. The point is that it's truly random choice and both directions need to be heard. Charles |
@charles1dad , "out of phase"was a spot on analogy about fuse direction. Lots of things can sound right when out of phase and yet something is amiss with other parameters. They are different, for sure, and I must stress that for me, the differences are of an amount significant enough to point to the better of the two choices. There is some theory that I can't remember concerning distortion and other anomalies in hearing thresholds that was a cornerstone of sorts until some people were tested and found to have hearing acuity 10x greater than the limits originally thought. That was some 5-10 years ago. Our ears are some fairly sophisticated devices that are, at present, unmeasurable with current testing devices when it comes to detecting false signals, cues and the like. Science has to take a long and serious look to see those differences with technology unavailable to the general population. All the best, Nonoise |
davehrab With regard to fuse direction I believe the 50% ... 50% ... 98% rule applies ... simply stated when ever an audiophile has a 50 / 50 chance of installing a fuse in the correct orientation ... 98% of the time he will select the wrong direction .. how else can you explain that anytime an audiophile installs a fuse and then reverses it ... there is always an improvement I also think the test is flawed ... has anyone ever reversed the fuse an heard an improvement only to back test it by reversing the fuse again to see if the improvement is lost .. you know a simple ABA test ... never seen anyone post about that Funny thing, in Audiophile circles if you can hear things others cannot, you are revered...In society you are sent for treatment.Enter your text ... >>>>Gold Star for best post of the week! 🌠 |
With regard to fuse direction I believe the 50% ... 50% ... 98% rule applies ... simply stated when ever an audiophile has a 50 / 50 chance of installing a fuse in the correct orientation ... 98% of the time he will select the wrong direction .. how else can you explain that anytime an audiophile installs a fuse and then reverses it ... there is always an improvement
Funny thing, in Audiophile circles if you can hear things others cannot, you are revered...In society you are sent for treatment.Enter your text ... |
charlesdad1 My experience with the SR Black fuses is similar to those of nonoise with his fuses. I listened to the fuses placed in one direction and then reversed this direction. Without fail there’s an undeniable change in the sound, not necessarily good vs bad, but "different ". One direction was very clear and "locked in ", the other had an "out of phase" character to it. I don’t think there’s any need to pussy foot around here. Obviously - by YOUR own words - one direction IS better than the other. Sonically. It’s NOT as you say, "just different." |
What the guy at SR meant when he said "try it both ways" is that the SR fuses ARE directional (as are all fuses) but you cannot tell which way is the right way to insert them just by looking at them. You can't go by the lettering and you can't go by arrows, if there are arrows. Thus, try them both ways and pick the one that sounds best. Ergo, fuses are directional. |
almarg Geoff’s statement above is correct. See the first of my posts dated 10-28-2016 in the long running "Synergistic Red Fuse" thread, in which I quote posts that have been made here by Ralph and several other designers of well regarded audio electronics on the subject of fuse directionality. I quoted Ralph’s comment (which had originally appeared in another fuse-related thread) as follows: Ralph Karsten of Atma-Sphere: "… Fuses are inherently incapable of having directionality in any way whatsoever. … I joined this thread recently with some results on testing. Those results are that the directionality appears out of coincidence and that actually greater improvement can be had by rotating the fuse in the holder for best contact…. Reversal is improving the contact area because fuse and holder are not dimensionally perfect and the fuse might sit better in the holder in one direction. By rotating the fuse in the holder without reversing it gets the same effect only more profoundly." >>>>Whoa! What? If fuses are incapable of having directionality in any way whatsoever why do almost all users of aftermarket fuses in the past 15 years report better sound when the fuse is in the correct direction? talk about ignoring evidence. Do you guys really think there’s some sort of audiophile conspiracy? Do you actually believe that it’s group hypnosis? The placebo effect? Expectation bias? Ralph’s hypothesis of the fuse holder accounting for the improvement when fuses are flipped doesn’t hold water since if were true that fuses are not directional and the fuse holder was the key, then flipping the fuse and rotating it would lead to worse sound in many cases, not better sound. That is IF the fuse holder contact area differences were even AUDIBLE which I actually don’t think they are. Talk about grasping for straws. You might as well use the time honored naysayer argument that it's the oxide on the surface of the fuse holder being removed whilst flipping the fuse that accounts for the change in sound. "Rotating affects the sound more profoundly than reversing it? Huh? I thought you guys didn't think there was any effect from reversing the fuse. How could something be more profound? Give me a break. Besides, the whole fuse directionality issue is rather moot in light of the fact were already know ALL WIRE is directional. We’ve known it for At least 25 years. So of course fuses - ALL FUSES - are directional. Hel-loo! This is all just a case where some folks didn’t get the memo and refuse to believe there ever was a memo. Who knows why. In view of the overwhelming evidence in favor of fuse directionality AND wire directionality in general - not the least of which is the comprehensive data contained on the HiFi Tuning website. perhaps it’s best to put the fuse holder hypothesis to bed. Don’t let the bedbugs bite. cheers, geoff kait machina dramatica advanced audio concepts |
From my experiences using the Synergistic Red and Black. The black was more detail then the Red, but on some equipment i prefer the red better than the Black. The black can be overly aggressive and bright on some of my unit. As far as directional wise, Peter Hanson at SR states that you should try it in both directions, there is not a wrong or right way. I came and visit his place down in Irvine just 10minutes from where i live. You just got to try it out and see what works for you. |
My experience with the SR Black fuses is similar to those of nonoise with his fuses. I listened to the fuses placed in one direction and then reversed this direction. Without fail there’s an undeniable change in the sound, not necessarily good vs bad, but "different ". One direction was very clear and "locked in ", the other had an "out of phase " character. This contrast was heard with my DAC, Line Stage and amplifier. A good friend of mine had the same results in his system with completely different components. He and I heard this with SR and his Audio Horizon fuses. The bottom line was consistent differences in sonic character based on fuse direction. I am unable to provide a satisfying technical explanation ànd won’t make àn attempt to do so. Al, Ralph and others make strong and compelling arguments why fuses "shouldn’t" behave in a directional manner. I respect their opinions very much. At the end of the day I simply listen and report what I have heard with or without a satisfactory technical explanation to accompany it. Why do I hear a difference? I don’t know. Do I hear a difference based on fuse direction placement? Unequivocally yes. As with all things involving audio YMMV 😊. Charles |
A few years ago I considered buying something from Wyred 4 Sound and audiophile fuses were an upgrade. I've also read reviews and announcements of products that have them already featured but can't recall the brands. They are in the minority but that seems to be growing, albeit, slowly. All the best, Nonoise |
Geoff’s statement above is correct. See the first of my posts dated 10-28-2016 in the long running "Synergistic Red Fuse" thread, in which I quote posts that have been made here by Ralph and several other designers of well regarded audio electronics on the subject of fuse directionality. I quoted Ralph’s comment (which had originally appeared in another fuse-related thread) as follows: Also, in the numerous fuse-related threads that have appeared here over the years I can recall exactly two members who have reported experimenting with fuse rotation: Ralph, and a member named SGordon1, who posted in the Red Fuse thread on 5-3-2016 about having done that. Both gentlemen reported that significant differences resulted. Also, as far as I can recall none of the many people who have reported hearing differences as a result of reversing the direction of a fuse have ever indicated that they went back and forth between the two directions multiple times, reinserting the fuse each time with randomly varying rotational orientation, to verify that their results were repeatable and that they were unrelated to rotational orientation. Now, does it seem unlikely that rotating a fuse in its holder would have a reasonable likelihood of making an audibly significant difference? In the absence of empirical evidence, such as Ralph has provided, my technically-based instinct would be to consider it as being unlikely although possible. However, I would think it to be vastly more unlikely, and in fact impossible, for a fuse to have **inherent** directional characteristics, to an audibly significant degree. And as I mentioned, several other designers of respected audio electronics whom I quoted in the post I referred to above agree with me. Regards, -- Al |
gdnrbob Oh, your are going to light fires, especially with that avatar ;) Re: directional fuses, I recall Ralph at Atma-Sphere mentioning something, but I forgot the details. Though I think he said there was something to it. (If I am wrong Ralph, sorry). B I don’t want to put words in Ralph’s mouth, either, but I’m pretty sure he’s not really on board the whole fuse directionality train. His argument is (and I suppose he could possibly be accused of fence sitting on fuse directionality) that when someone flips the fuse it somehow magically gets a better grip in the fuse holder. Cough, cough As I recall the other fence sitter Almarg agrees with Ralph in this regard. |
I was always of the mind that a better made fuse would perform better. My own ears proved it. What I didn't have was my feet planted on the side of the argument that they are directional. That was almost two years ago. Fast forward to just last week, I've been considering getting new speakers because the highs were never as good as what I had before. Just for sh*ts & grins I opened up my SACD player and changed fuse directions on all four fuses (some were in the signal path) and lo! 😃 Everything improved. I'm keeping my speakers for the foreseeable future. Yes, fuses are directional. Maybe not in the AC path but definitely in the signal path. Others might have been lucky enough to have put them in right the first time as it's a 50/50 shot. I wasn't. Now I'm thinking about those SR Black fuses. Damn. All the best, Nonoise |
Im using all Synergistic Black Quantum fuses they sound wonderful why would you want to use a 50 cent fuse on a 10k component not me.Imnot going to waste time trying them in different directions as they sound wonderful the way i have them in now.Using them on my preamp,phono stage,cd player etc.Good luck though. |
