Furutech AC Receptacles

Peter (pbnaudio)
You may remember that I contacted you when you were embarking on that project many summers ago so I am aware of what you were trying to achieve. A switch is indeed the solution.
I have, like hdm, deployed the ancient methodology of plugging and replugging cables: for my test in my 2nd system -which allowed easier access- I used two PI Audio Ueberbuss (as you may know, it uses a passive LC filter in a wooden/resonance free housing) and changed the (outlet) sockets. Tested were Oyaide SWO-XX. Oyaide R1, Synergistic Research Teslaplex / later the SE version, cruzeFIRST Audio Maestro Outlet and Furutech GTX-D Rhodium) . It wasnt easy to remember the nuances as my second system (NAD gear) wasnt up to par with my main rig but I found the Furutech GTX-D(R) the best in my system as it offers both resolution and smoothness. As I have vintage (Duntech/Dunlavy) speakers throughout my house, the GTX-D (R) seems to be the best fit. Runners up were the Oyaide R1 and Maestro (very neutral but not "fast enough" for my taste). Teslaplex SE has lots of speed but is not balanced (too much emphasis on the highs, great for video though).
These were my findings after long hours of listening over a protracted period of time. A few months later I started experimenting with fuses which make a huge difference and are simple to implement if the fuse holder is accessible mostly at the back. I am concluding the test on my NAD M25 in which all stock fuses (incl those in the power section) are replaced by third party ones. 

salelectric
as you know, it is the matching of components that matter. I am careful not to use more Furutech in power cords. I have multiple GTX-D(R) in each of my three systems. The NCF has great reviews but I don’t have experience with them yet.
As mentioned above, fuses impart a big signature. Again, it is trial and error. IME I find Audio Horizon’s Platinum Reference better than the SR Black, which is already very, very good. Furutech has great fuses as "entry level" ones but they wouldn’t combine well with fast systems.
As you can see from my other comments, I tried full looms (Audience, HiDiamond, High Fidelity Cables, just to name the last iterations) but never settled long on one brand. Through ever-tweaking - not just power but room correction and isolation/resonance control I am pretty close to "there".
Feel free to contact me directly as I do not peruse the forum on a regular basis.

Stalker alert! It's time for the Jitter show. Is that the best you could come up with, Jitter? You're slipping.

Try spending $3.00 for a "Spark Plug File" at home depot. Run the file over the plug flange faces to make sure they are flat for optimal contact with your $200 receptical. I've seen huge ridges on plug flanges from stamping operation.

@geoffkait  And @wylmars : I'm an Assembly language lover as well. Started my Programming career with Illinois Bell Telephone two weeks after ATT divestiture in January, 1984 (CRIS System). My biggest accomplishments: 1.Tweaked some code which saved 5 hours (clock time) from a billing cycle program. 2. Found an error on an IBM yellow card. 

Peter,

Your personal attacks notwithstanding, what you are saying actually makes no sense. You haven’t done the tests so how can you possibly know in advance what the results are? Duh! How can I tell when your lying? When your mouth moves.

Geoff,  

Have absolutely no "angst" as you describe it, lets say the test reveals that there is ZERO difference on outlets - and  all your cooky "theories" about directionally of fuses etc are dismissed.

So why don't you write the program and actually try to contribute something  real other that the usual  babble you come up with.


Good Listening


Peter

pbnaudio
Geoff,

Because this would actually be a controlled test and if there is any repeatability this will clearly manifest it self. If the claim is to have any credibility then repeatability is a must. I know that something structured and with logic is not something you normally subscribe to - take your Teleportation tweak, Clever little clock, Aquarium Rocks in small plastic bags etc. you catch y drift I’m sure.

Think of it this way - one complete system connected to just one outlet that can be immediately replaced with another outlet without powering down the system, if any difference is produced by the outlet it will be obvious to anyone listening.

Gee whiz, Peter, you make it sound like you actually did the test. But you failed to deliver after many promises. That’s the only thing that’s obvious. Who cares about all your theories and obvious angst? You have no cred on the street.

Geoff,

Because this would actually be a controlled test and if there is any repeatability this will clearly manifest it self. If the claim is to have any credibility then repeatability is a must. I know that something structured and with logic is not something you normally subscribe to - take your Teleportation tweak, Clever little clock, Aquarium Rocks in small plastic bags etc. you catch y drift I’m sure.

Think of it this way - one complete system connected to just one outlet that can be immediately replaced with another outlet without powering down the system, if any difference is produced by the outlet it will be obvious to anyone listening.

Good Listening

Peter

PS I've put a description of the wiring  of the jig on the systems page describing the remote and the I/O on the Pico PLC

pbnaudio
Heres the Jig again, lets see ion we can get this done - and Geoff if your as smart as you proclaim to be write the program for the PLC :-)

Oh, I can write the program. But as I already suggested, why make things so unnecessarily complicated and difficult?

wylmars,

I gave you a heads up. Are you still up for entering the Dragons Lairs?

It's not rocket science 

Best to All on this Journey 

"PS It's really not difficult. You listen to them. It's not rocket science."

Bingo. Preferably the same receptacle running the whole system as I mentioned. Long term listening. 

Quick switching back and forth using single receptacles interacting with others is, generally speaking a waste of time. 

It is time consuming, but it needs not be costly (to establish that there are indeed sonic differences) and, as you say Geoff, it is not rocket science. 

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/6567


Heres the Jig again, lets see ion we can get this done - and Geoff if your as smart as you proclaim to be write the program for the PLC :-)

Good Listening

Peter

 
pbnaudio
As mentioned in a post above I did start a test per say of AC outlets some years ago, just never finished it, all missing is a program for the Allen Bradley PICO controller PLC. The idea is that a complete system will be hardwired to this jig which features 8 different outlets including the ones you mention a few others and a elcheapo Homedepot one at $0.54 The inlet to the Jig will be hardwired directly to our electrical panel.

Whoa! Hey, I remember that outlet test. First it was, "things are a little hectic so the test will be next week." Then, it was like, "Uh, I’m still gathering outlets for the test." All very apologetic like. How time flies, seems like yesterday. 😀

PS It's really not difficult. You listen to them. It's not rocket science.

Jazzonthehudson,

Like you I have a GTX-D (R).  Mine is the NCF version with the aluminum housing and the cover plate.  That's the only Furutech outlet I have tried so I can't comment on how this differs from the non-NCF version or how the outlet sounds without the housing and optional cover plate.  However, the combination certainly sounds nice in my system which like yours uses tube electronics.  I only have one of these outlets though.  Do you have more than one in your setup?  The reason I am asking is I am wondering whether adding extras would be a good thing or perhaps cause too much of a Furutech sound.  My one complaint with the GTX combo is that the soundstage perspective is more recessed and distant than I like.  I wouldn't want to make it even more distant with a second or third GTX.  Any comments?

(I realize that people who already "know" that outlets can't make any difference in sound quality will find these comments absurd.  So be it.)

hdm and Hudson,

As mentioned in a post above I did start a test per say of AC outlets some years ago, just never finished it, all missing is a program for the Allen Bradley PICO controller PLC.  The idea is that a complete system will be hardwired to this jig which features 8 different outlets including the ones you mention a few others and a elcheapo Homedepot one at $0.54   The inlet to the Jig will be hardwired directly to our electrical panel.

It is impossible to conduct a real test of the difference in sound quality an outlet makes, if any, plugging in un plugging and restarting the system. 

So if theres a Wizard out there that wants to make the program for the  PICO - which will engage any of the outlets via remote control before it disengage the prior one selected - this way the system can be powered consistently without any interruption - so if there is a difference in SQ this should be beyond obvious to any listener.

I will post a systems page of the Jig which is all wired up ready to go only thing missing is the program - I used to program PLCs many moons ago just do not have the time to relearn it.


Good Listening

Peter

+1 salectric
funny to see this kind of question pop up on a regular interval, similar as those questioning a if cables can make a difference.
My experience after 8+ years of tweaking with isolation/resonance control, power and cables: absolutely they all make a difference and, yes, burn in is needed.
Furutech has great products, esp their wall sockets are great value/money. I like their rhodium versions GTX-D(R) as it works best in my tube based system.
See my main system: power+resonance control+cables make up at least a quarter of the budget and it is worth it for me.

@pbnaudio: I would certainly add some Furutech GTX-D(r) or the gold version if you like a smoother sound to the mix, maybe 3 Furutech and 3 Pass & Seymour as hdm suggested. All way better than Hubbel which is better than stock. 

An outlet is just a connection. A means of coupling a device to your home electric grid. It is a plastic housing with copper slip grips that squeeze the prongs from the dead front plug you push in it. That is it. The better quality ones such as "hospital grade" are sturdier and better built than the ordinary ones. Again that is it.  All you need to make sure of is that they are good quality, the correct amperage, copper and tight. Please explain to me what burning in does to this very simple device.

@pbnaudio:

Peter: I spent the better part of 18 months experimenting with receptacles about 15 years ago. I found it interesting and it was not particularly costly with decent quality stock receptacles from the better manufacturers. 

You have some decent equipment and I would expect a decent ear as well.

Here's a simple suggestion for you and the best way for you to get to the bottom of this issue: buy 3 Pass & Seymour 5262's and 3 Hubbell HBL 5262's (make sure they are the HBL 5262's and not CR 5262's or other non HBL prefix Hubbells-they are very different). 

Total cost to you will be about $75-$80 for those 6 receptacles. I suggest purchasing 3 of each because (I know this from experimenting and doing this)

a)  the effects are cumulative
b) very few systems run off 1 receptacle
c) the sonic character of the receptacle is much more readily discernible when it is not in a "mix and match" situation. Logical, actually when you think about it scientifically, and clearly audible when you do it and approach it that way. If you need to buy an extra couple of receptacles to run the whole system off the same receptacle, that is certainly the way to go, but running most of the system off 3 receptacles should give you a very decent baseline. 

Leave the 3 P&S receptacles in for a month or two and then switch them out and replace them with the HBL's. 

Notwithstanding the effects of burn-in, if you don't hear significant differences with your system between the Levitons you are currently using and the Pass & Seymours & HBL's, I will buy the 6 receptacles from you including shipping and your experiment will have cost you nothing. 

If you do hear differences, you can thank me and go down the receptacle rabbit hole. 

You should, of course, report your findings here. 

Otherwise, it's just as easy for me to say you don't want to believe that it is possible as it is for you to say I want to hear a difference and therefore I do. 

Right now, the difference is that I've done it and you haven't. I'll leave it to others to ascertain as to how much faith one should put in one "opinion" vs. the other. 

Wow, they’re coming in droves now. Who left the floodgates open?

So, let’s briefly summarize the naysayers’ position.

1. No one can hear the difference even if there is one.

2. Break-in disobeys the laws of physics. Just like directionality.

3. The argument surrounding break-in is like religion. One assumes that is supposed to be an actual argument against break-in being real. I guess that means God is not real either.

4. It’s all psychological. Expectation bias, placebo effect, self-fulfilling prophecy. Take your pick.

5. Nobody can keep track of the sound of his system for 200 hours or 400 hours or whatever because there are too many variables. So nobody can PROVE break-in is real.

The next thing you know one of these guys will try to hit one out of the park by declaring controlled blind tests would easily show break-in is not real and must be psychological.

Cerberus,

Your observation is somewhat correct, only difference being that something like this is easily, or at least somewhat easily demonstrable.  I sincerely doubt that any of the folks that claim to hear a difference between a " broken - in" and a non "broken - in " outlet would be able to tell any difference on two "otherwise"  identical outlets let alone any other outlet that provide a good solid contact, should it be put to a test.  

Its however useless to debate, they want to hear a difference,  so they do.  

Good Listening

Peter

But it is like religion. You accept technical facts for your cell phone, computer and many other things. When it comes to audio i very often hear " there is no technical proof but I hear a difference". Just like religion

It’s not like religion at all. The naysayers here don’t have any real arguments. They only call names. That’s the level of their argument. They whinny and bray. At least in religion there are two sides, somewhat on a level playing field, each with coherent arguments. Unlike in this discussion.

 The truth is that this is like a discussion about religion. The faithfull will remain faithfull regardless and the opposing sides will never agree but there can be mutual respect. In the end most of us are in it for the music and the enjoyment it brings us so happy listening.

There is just no point in arguing in a forum whether "burn in" of something (anything) is real or not.  Either you have tried this and noticed a difference, or not.  I have experienced the changes with burn-in many times and with all sorts of component parts including capacitors, resistors, wire and, yes, power outlets.  There is no question in my mind that the effects are real but I would hardly try to persuade someone else of this by words.  You just have to try it yourself.  If you do and you don't notice any difference, fine.  That will make your life a lot simpler since you won't have to wait hundreds of hours before evaluating a change in components.  You can just do it, listen, and move on.  But your experience will not prove there is no difference, only that you didn't detect any.  And stating your opinion in all capital letters doesn't make it any more valid. 

I suspect you’ll find his source is the little voice in his head.

@randy-11,  what is your source on 'Wire do not'? 

I always experience better 'sound' in my system after few hundred hours of playing time with new equipments and wires. I call it 'settling' period but I do like 'dragon_vibe' answer better :-)

Here is one theory from a renowned cable maker, 

"During the manufacturing process, as insulation is extruded over the conductors, gases can become trapped. This combined with the high electrical charges often found in new cables, result in a brittle and bright sound that lacks the detail and depth desired for music reproduction. There are couple of ways to resolve above referenced issues. One way to burn-in your cables is to simply hook them up in your home audio system and play music for a minimum of 100 hours. However, the best solution is to treat your cables using a designated cable burn-in device". 

some Audio components burn-in but OUTLETS AND WIRE DO NOT

wylmars OP
Yes, BAL was the language we all used at the start of my career. It is a very thrifty language in its’ use of memory. It required coding discipline, unlike today’s bloated high-level languages.

Ah yes, Art Clarke’s 2001: A Space Odyssey and his very clever twist on the HAL moniker (i.e., H (i) A (b) L (m). I was sort like one of those primates throwing clubs ... more age dating!

Actually, Kubrick disputed the HAL-IBM connection theory and said HAL was simply the acronym for Heuristic and Algorithmic Language. If he had wished to attribute IBM somehow why didn’t he just name the devious computer something someone other than a cryptologist could discern. Something like say MBI-9000.

I started my career at age 16, using one of those clunky Friden desk calculators to crunch Lorenz transformation equations at Army Map Service. During lunchtime of course. 😀

Break In period is something typical to Dating. Your just getting to know the girl.

After the break in period is over, you decide if you can live with her or cant stand her flaws and habits.

I started when I was nineteen ....

I've determined you must be older than dirt.

Yes, BAL was the language we all used at the start of my career. It is a very thrifty language in its' use of memory. It required coding discipline, unlike today's bloated high-level languages.

Ah yes,  Art Clarke's 2001: A Space Odyssey and his very clever twist on the HAL moniker (i.e., H (i) A (b) L (m). I was sort like one of those primates throwing clubs ... more age dating!

I was trained in assembly language and Algol and in using computers with higher mathematics as well as statistical thermo. I worked for a while for the 1st PhD in Computer Science from U. Illinois Urbana who helped design the advanced computer in early 60s there used as the model for HAL-9000 in 2001: A Space Odyssey.

geoffkait - yes, I'm probably a bit older than you. My first program was coded in EXCP - and yes, I was trained in OS internals - hmm ... I'm dating myself ...

geoffkait - Yes ... the greatest technology company, for which there wouldn’t be the technology companies listed ... all but one ... the one that started the computer technology and all the users and enablers of those enterprises listed. I’ll just leave it at that.

Whoa! The one that started the computer technology?! And all the users and enablers of those entries listed?! I’m intrigued. If you understand machine language you're one up on me.

😀

wylmars,

l appreciate your response. You can see that this is a contested topic. Please do keep a record and follow up with your impressions. Honest impressions are all we can ask. 
Best to all on this Journey.

nkonor - My system? Okay ... ARC REF 75SE, REF 5SE, all Accuphase digital, including SACD, PS Audio P10, Nordost and Tannoy Westminster Royal SE (horn) speakers (before that, Soundlab M1A). Yes, I'll keep a dairy of my impressions at 100 hour intervals, for whatever my opinion is worth.

Ozzy - I will research your recommendation regarding Oyaide covers.

geoffkait - Yes ... the greatest technology company, for which there wouldn't be the technology companies listed ... all but one ... the one that started the computer technology and all the users and enablers of those enterprises listed. I'll just leave it at that.

I will return to this forum and share my impressions; for that is all I will be able to offer - impressions - reality based impressions from empirical observation, filtered through my own aural biases (I went to college on a partial music scholarship at 16 - violin).

I must say to all of you that this has generated a bit more feedback than I expected ... and I appreciate it all, on both sides of the technology question.

We are all waiting for your thoughts at installation and every 100 hours there after. Then you can move onto fuses.
You have great market feedback.Please post your system.

Thanks in advance.

Whoa! What?! The world’s greatest technology company? What company could that be? Hmmm.....GE? IBM? RCA? Microsuoft? Apple? Hughes? Lockheed? Rockwell? Boeing? Motorola? Sony? Honeywell? Northrop Grumman? Samsung? 

Indeed ... technology is often times a strange and mysterious world. Having worked in the world's greatest technology company for nearly 40 years (started at 19), I've been skeptical of developments, small and large. I was the performance laboratory manager for 13 years (of my 27 years in SW/HW development management). For example; there was no marketplace for small consumer computers, cache memory was a joke someone was pulling on us, no one will use a cash dispensing machine, a small form-factor disk ... it'll never work; or how about a disk operating system for non-commercial purposes? Been there, seen all that. So, I will see (hear) what Furutech is all about and get back to all of you. I and all my technology audiophile friends (who own more patents than I have years) who actually did develop voice technology in the '70s, something called System-R (relational) software and eye recognition. A computer out-duel Ken Jennings? It would never happen - or did it? Maybe there is something to Rhodium treated AC outlets with rare alloys ... maybe not!

No apologies necessary. Rest assured that those who have actually done the work, done the listening and made the comparisons take almost as much amusement, perhaps more, from those insistent on it being a fraud, having no effect, etc., 99% of whom have never made even a token effort to investigate. 

They just know better LOL. Not much has changed in the forums over the years. 

Does anyone know any Little Moron jokes?

yes, just enjoy their BS

sadly consumers are being defrauded

I have read almost all the claims on the Furutech website. I did not finnish as i almost broke a rib laughing. " a great sound stage , musical highs, tight controlled bass, power and dynamics to spare", FROM AN OUTLET !!! I must apologize its your money do with it as u will. 

@crazyeddie:

Yes, it is a very good idea and the beer fridge, particularly if it is an older beast, will work probably better than anything else short of something like the Audiodharma. 

Plug the fridge into one half for the two weeks before you leave and then into the other half just before you leave on vacation and you'll be in great shape when you come back. 

FWIW, I did some pretty extensive experimentation with receptacles about 15 years ago, some of which is outlined here:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/review-world-power-receptacle-cryoed-hubbell-5362-tweak

I can assure you that break-in is very real, and particularly noticeable on cryoed items like the Furutech. I'm less interested in the "why" than the result itself, which has been clearly audible to many. 

Different receptacles offer up very different sound qualities; it's a subjective hobby with different listeners preferring different presentations, so there will always be disagreement on what is "best" but the better receptacles out there offer vastly superior performance to the run of the mill contractor grade receptacles found in most houses. 

Lak,

Some years back I wanted to conduct an AC outlet test made up a fancy jig holding 10 different AC outlets  all switchable with relays via a PLC , never got around to making a program for it though.  The switching was to be done via a remote and keeping the prior engaged till after the next one was engaged so that the system connected to the outlet was always on.   Still have the jig sitting in my warehouse and if theres a wizard out there knowing how to program a Allen Bradley PICO controller and wants to spend the time making the program for it I'd be happy to conduct the test.  PM Me and Ill let you know the specifics of how the jig is wired up - the only thing missing is the program.

In my system I use Leviton Industrial Grade outlets. I certainly do think that a proper AC outlet with as good solid connection is important, but when it comes to the cover plates screws holding it etc I'm out.  Same goes for AC cords, Proper gauge, Quality plug and a secure connection is important though.

To each his own, if you can hear a difference then its real to you, to me its not.

Good Listening


Peter

I have friends in the audio biz and none use special outlets or power cords. We use good outlets such as Hubbel but none of this is in your audio circuit. A filter is the only thing that made any difference at all. 

All amps speakers etc have different sound. What breaks in is your ears that are going from one to the other. An engineer designs a unit to specific specs, are you saying that these specs change because it has been on for 100 hours ?

@wylmars  - I am currently using a a couple of Furutech receptacles (GTX-D-NCF-R) without its expensive plate & cover with great result. Furutech receptacles replaced my PS Audio receptacles and the improvement was significant. I bought it from Steven Huang of Audio Senisibility (http://audiosensibility.com/blog/) who helped me break-in this receptacles for 15 days (15 x 24) w/o any additional charge.
After installing these units I used a couple of table fans running (24 X 7) for a week or so, in addition to listening to regular music, to complete the break-in process. It's important to break-in each outlet in the receptacle duplex to get the full result. Once these receptacles come in with 1/2 weeks of break-in from the dealer/seller it is a relatively easy task to complete the break-in process and get the full bloom within a week or so. Hope this helps...