Guidocorona writes: Springbock10, yours is the $64B question. Moded units are not balanced, except for one APL3910 version which has XLR active outputs. Not a classic balanced design with duplicate circuitry, though: the 'balance' signal is created through phase splitting. Some other modded units are balanced. Rare - but they are out there. I believe that Allen Wright does have a balanced option for the mods he does to the VC24/VC24+ digital filter chip equipped Sonys (SCD-1, SCD-777, SCD-555, SCD-C333, DVP-S9000) and this is a significant extra cost (almost double), as there are many more components - its a double module. I am sure this is a fully differential stage - can't imagine Allen taking a shortcut. I know he was offering this at one stage, but have not checked his web site to see if he still has this option. My XA777ES, modified by Ric Schultz, has a fully balanced output stage; multichannel capability has been disabled. I would not be surprised if Kyle of Reference Audio Mods has not built a modified Marantz or something with balanced outputs using the Audio Consulting traffos, but I am not certain by any means. Regards, |
APLHIFI,
Help me understand. Tube preamps like my CJ 16 s2 adds artificial "bloom" (distortion). Your use of tubed output stage (vs ss) changes the sonic signature to a more "musical" one (which people seem to like and is somehow not distortion). My simple brain needs help on this one. I certainly won't upgrade to the ACT-2 until I fully understand the added "noise,distotions,and bloom" comment.
Merry Xmas
Jim |
Thank you Metralla, your new info is very welcome. It adds a whole new twist to the field of moded units. |
Excellent question, Aldavis. I too, share your confusion, since my Atma-Sphere MP-1 adds similar musically pleasing "distortion" to my DCC2's output. I, too, await Aplhifi's response. I have an unlinked but important question to modders of Denon, Esoteric, etc: Jolida covers any mod work done by PartsConnexion (sold by Underwood HiFi); so, do the big boys, Denon, etc cover warranty work done by Exemplar/APL/Modwright, etc? - it would certainly make purchasing a modded unit less of a financial/repair gamble. You all know that it is more reassuring to have a big known brand-name stand behind any repair issues than a single person who may be busy/incapacitated/away to undertake a rapid repair of a modded unit. My transport on the Esoteric DV-50 just broke and I was told by TEAC that it would take 2 (two) working days to fix it!! Can individual modders undertake this? This is not a contentious troll, but of real world importance to potential buyers who want to know that their newest and best unit paid for by hard-earned bucks will be looked after in a timely fashion. |
Without doing a shred of research into the matter, I can confidently tell you that Denon and Sony will not cover the warranty work by modders. This has not stopped me from ordering a modded 3910 from Modwright. I have had 3 other units modded by Dan, and find him to be highly trustworthy and reliable. |
Springbok, I cannot say anything about the other moders, but Exemplar did assume the warranty lost from Denon when a part went out on my 3910. Unlike TEAC, the unit was repaired and on its way back the same day it was received.
I do think that when you choose the mod. route you can expect fewer waranty repairs as part of the money you are saving going this route. I chose the Exemplar not because it was far cheaper than my EMM or dCS gear but because it was better. |
Tbg, the digital attenuator I am talking about is non-decimating. I do not hear the problems you've experienced with dCS gear.
Regards,
Alex |
Aldavis, it is very simple to understand. EVERY single component on the signal path adds noise and distortions. The passive components (resistors, caps, transformers) add less, but the active components (transistors, tubes, etc.) are adding more. This is the reason why more complicated circuits require sufficient amount of negative feedback.
In conclusion, all of your audio components add noise and distortions (some more some less). If you like the bloom of your CJ preamp and this combination sounds better to you, then listen that way. Of course, again, this will be added noise and distortions.
Regards,
Alex |
APLHIFI,
At no time did I dispute your reasoning for a shorter signal path. My question regaurded your own use of "bloom" causing tubes. You have not explained why you use them. My assumption is that they are used intentionaly to alter the sonic signature to a more pleasing "bloomy" one. I personaly don't judge this one way or the other. Regaurding the use of a preamp I would say that it would be a net negative only if you have a better way to perfectly add gain. I want to make it clear that I'm not attacking you or your products.
Best Wishes,
Jim |
Aldavis, no offence taken! I use the term "bloom" because it is commonly used for the added warmth from tube stages. I am not the guy who looks for really creamy, flabby and tubey sound. The 6H30 tube I use in my designs is also known as "the solid state tube". Not many are using it because it does not add the usual "bloom" and soft tubey sound signature as many other tubes do. I would hate to mask existing problems with tube stage that rolls off the highs and "blooms" so you don't hear the harshness. I take a different approach of having everything as right as possible before the tube stage. Then, the transformer coupled 6H30 adds just more naturalness and musicality to the sound. Why is that? It is becuase the 6H30 is Super-linear tube which does not have much gain. This allows for design without negative feedback. The end result is dynamic, transparent, 3D solid-state-like sound with added high frequency sweetnes and liquid midrange coming from the tube. Since all passive or active components add noise and distortions, my tube stage isn't free from that - it adds them too. The question is if you would like to make things worse using preamp.
Regards,
Alex |
Alex, I would like to know if your 6H30 circuit can support these two tubes. 6N1P and 6CG7. I use a tube linestage designed to take 6H30 and can sub, without any problem those two tubes. And if you have a bias or filament pot inside, the 6922/6dj8 should also work. For many people, not being able to roll the 6H30 will be a big negative. |
Reb1208, sorry to say but you can not roll tubes as my circuit will not allow it. I have a box full of the best available NOS tubes (about $3K worth) and have tried all. I have yet to hear anything else that sounds close to the 6H30.
If you hear the machine with the 6H30 tube stage, you will realize that you don't need to roll tubes.
Regards,
Alex |
Alex - I've been following this thread for a while. Please excuse me for being so abrupt, but - How much does your modded 3910 cost? Does the machine retain it's "universal" status?
Thanks
Paul |
Oldpet, Paul, the package that includes the 3910 machine and free shipping is currently $4200. Yes, the unit retains "universal" status and Video.
Regards,
Alex |
Have any of you guys experienced problems with Modded Denon units that are not repairable?
I tried a Stock 3910 a while back, and it would not play my 192kHz DVD-A discs. What if something like this happened to a modded unit?
I have also heard of transport issues with Denons, and actually had one issue with the 3910 I was trying for a while. I had a disc that was a little off balance (it played just fine on other players, but with a mild rumble) that when played in the 3910 sounded like it was going to self destruct within the player. It eventually stopped trying to play it, and ejected the disc.
Dave
PS - perhaps after New Years I will write a bit more clearly...sorry all |
DBLD, that may be an inherent problem with lower end transport. That is one of the reasons why I am so attracted by machines that use the VRDS transport mechanism. I am excited to see what Alex comes up modifying the UX-3, and hope the other modifiers will follow with full mods on similar units |
Dbld, the Denon 3910 has the same transport as the previous 2900 model. The Servo control is also the same (Sony chips). The only difference is the DVD processor being ESS in the 3910. It takes care of CD and DVD processing and uses large SDRAM memory buffer. In the case the machine was not reading 192K discs, the ESS processor might have been defective. Since the 3910 is a machine like all other Digital players, anything can happen to it at any time, there are no guarantees. If you look at the warranty information on my site, you will see that I offer 1 year parts and labor for the re-design (mod) part. Also, during that year, if something else happens to the player, I will not charge labor but just unmarked parts cost. After the first year, the labor will be symbolic for any repair plus, again, unmarked parts cost. Since I am used to $200K + Sony Broadcast and Pro machines, there is nothing that can happen to 3910 (or any other machine) that I will not be able to fix as it looks like a baby toy to me
:-)
The 3910 spins the media much faster than a CD player because its playback is non-linear. It fills SDRAM memory buffer and the data is being clocked out of it. This results in dramatically reduced jitter coming from the transport, but also vibrations with not perfectly balanced media. Even the best transports in the world are still suspended on rubber or silicon dampers. Although you will not hear or feel the vibrations with these more expensive machines, if you can put your hand on the actual transport inside it still vibrates. Heavy transport is not the solution; the solution is the Audio Desk Systeme from Germany which bevels the edge of the Media. Together with other benefits, the best that I like about this little miracle is that it takes the center hole of the media for a reference and perfectly balances it. This results in NO vibrations whatsoever even if you play your CD on a boombox transport at X16 speed. The sonic improvement is dramatic.
Regards,
Alex |
Thanks for the info Guido and Alex. Quite interesting.
So Alex, does the 3910 spin the disk much faster than the DV-50?
I was told something similar about Meridian gear, and how it uses a 10x drive and buffers the data. I demoed a G98 for a weekend and was really impressed and I was simply feeding my pre/pro via a cheap Stereovox coax. |
Dbld, the DV-50 does not use memory buffers for CD, so it spins 1x. The 3910 spins at least 6x.
Regards,
Alex |
Thanks Alex.
Hey Chicago boys - Any chance you can tally-up some sort of basic ranking of the players you have auditioned so far? Avguru...since you began this thread maybe you would be the most appropriate to do this job.
You guys have gone through so many players, and this thread is so long now, it is a little difficult to do a synopsis. Guru began with the DV-50 which bested many players for him including the Theta Compli. I remember that one because I was trying to get a listen to one. Once you all got together with 711smilin, the APL 3910 has not only bested the DV-50 (with ease apparently), it has become a bit of the thread favorite.
Now Alex has done a DV-50, but maintains that the 3910 still sounds better. However the DV-50 was all SS while the 3910 uses his tube outputs. My question then is; how close are they in sound performance?
There is a lot of fun and useful information here, but my head is about to explode trying to keep up with it all. I have also come to the realization that this quest truly is never ending.
Dave |
Alex,
So can you place this Audio Desk System in the 3910 with your other mods?
Do you have more problems with Denon transports than other makes? |
Springbok10, the Audio Desk Systeme is stand alone machine you can buy for about $600. I received mine today and will report on what it does shortly after I bevel a few of my favorite CDs.
Denon reliabilty has been great so far.
Regards,
Alex |
Dbld, AVGURU and the rest of the Chicago group really need to hear the 3910 again as it is night and day compared to what they heard in the past.
Regards,
Alex |
If you fellows around Chicago are interested in a get together here after CES for listening and comparisons, I'm up for it. Sorry I had to cancel the Dec. 19th thing.
Brian |
I wish I could participate in comparing these units, but Texas is just too far away. My Exemplar/Denon 3910 is so superior to anything else I have ever heard that I just find it hard to believe there are better units. Its dynamics and fidelity to the recording event continually cause me to drop everything and just listen. I should say this is only after 300 plus hours on the unit. |
Hi Guys
Has anyone had a chance to compare all the players mentioned against the modded Denon 2900/3910 from the likes of Reference Audio Mod and Underwood? How do they stack against the DV50 and the Exemplar and APL machines?
Thks |
Aplhifi: I would very much appreciate your feedback on the Audio Desk Systeme. The vibration from my 2900 is significant sometimes. At first I thought it only a problem with SACDs (why would that be?), but then found a few Redbook CDs also created enough noise to be annoying. I thought what I was hearing was motor noise, but I think vibration is probably what it is.
Thanks!
John |
Mikannen - Good question. At $3200 and $4200 respectively, the Exemplar and APL machines are pretty expensive. The RAM and Underwood units seem like bargains. I too, wonder how the 'bargain' Mods stack up. |
Jfz, here is the link to one of the US retailers. This machine is being distributed by TEAC Esoteric in Japan. Pretty awesome stuff.
http://www.aaudio.com/store/ProductDetail.asp?catID=38&subCatID=252&productID=318
Regards,
Alex |
Oldpet, we can not compare apples and oranges. The available "bargains" do not have expensive tube stages inside as Exemplar, Modwright and my 3910. This is the reason for the price difference.
More affordable all solid state (tube-less) re-design for the 3910 is now available based on the one I made to the Teac DV-50. Instead of tube output stage it will come with MOSFET Class "A" transformer coupled stage using Tamura (Japan) transformers. The mod will include my DAC with built in remote controlled attenuator, my Master Clock and various power supply upgrades using R-Core power transformer.
Regards,
Alex |
Hi Alex
Don't misunderstand, what i'm asking. It's not wether the APL 3910 is worth the asking price. It's simply - how far off of the performance mark, are the "bargains"?
I am not an electrical engineer, nor do I pretend to be, so I wouldn't know the difference in price of an expensive tube out put stage. I'm just an oridnary guy who happens to love high quality audio performance. Unfortunately, I am a high school music director, so my funds are, shall I say... limited. I WANT to try the APL3910 but, my reality says no. I would be pressing the financial envelope for an Exemplar 3910 @$3200. So, that leaves me with the "bargain" choices. It also brings me back to my question. How far away are the RAM's and Underwoods, from the Best of the Best?
I wouldn't presume to make the comparison between an APL and an orange. (pun intended. :-) )
Maybe The question should be - How much better are the RAM's and Underwood's than, not only 'stock' universals, but also CDP's of equivalent $$$
Be well
Paul |
Oldpet, you might want to look into the Decware 685 player. It is $700 and includes a single ended triode tube stage driven directly from the dac chip output. No buffers, opamps, etc., to mess things up.
How does it sound? Well, I will let you know next week when mine arrives.
I don't mention this as being a sleeping giant or APL/Exemplar/Modwright killer as I am sure it is not. But, just another choice for those like me who have limited budgets. I would love to have one of APL or, the other units often in the limelight here but, even if I could afford it I tend to draw a line on prudence. Right now in an ever changing digital marketplace $4k for a CD player is outside that line for me. If I had any interest in SACD or DVD maybe not. But I don't. |
Nealhood - Thanks for the tip on the Decware 685. I'll be honest - I haven't heard of it. But PLEASE put up a post regarding how it sounds. BTW - Where did you get yours? |
TBG,
I too am sorry that you can not be part of our Chicago listening tests. You remind me of myself when I first heard the Esoteric DV 50. I didn't believe (and didn't want to believe) anything could sound better. I was wrong...and with all due respect so are you. The key words you used was "its the best you've heard". Keep that in mind.
The Exemplar is good but not the best by any stretch of the imgination. It was beaten soundly by the Sony Modwright and the APL 3910.
You will note throughout this thread I haven't come out in support of or endorsed anyone's modded unit. I've just reported the facts.
I am in the process of re-listening to everything that we've demoed a second time to assure myself that my impressions (and the groups impressions) were not flawed or biased. I will actually have an Exemplar 3910 in my hands within the next 5 days. I also plan on listening to Alex's latest 3910 (currently owned by 711) within the next week. Finally, I will have the Esoteric X01 in my home in another two weeks. Then I will write out detailed results of each.
Enjoy your Exemplar. It is better than a lot of things out there (including my DV 50).
AVGURU |
Thanks Alex, but I wasn't looking for a retailer. I'm looking for specific feedback, as you mentioned you would provide in your post to Springbok10 on 12/28 - including feedback with regard to decreasing vibration AND the resulting noise from the 2900. I will appreciate any feedback you can give me after you've had sufficient time using yours. |
Avguru, please bear in mind that the Exemplar needs 300 hours on it! I really doubt whether you have heard the Exemplar/Denon 3910 at its best given necessary breakin or complete modification. I have not heard recent Dan Wright mods and am unlikely to, but in earlier versions I did not find them to have the pace and dynamics of music. I will, however, soon have one of Alex's 3910s.
There is another complication in my consideration, the Einstein cd player. I will hear it at CES, but early reports are very positive. I would really miss hearing HDCDs as I can on the Denon 3910, however. Then there are the computer based replay systems, such as VRS. I have twice heard the VRS and never liked it, but others say it is outstanding.
You realize, I hope, that your evaluations hold for only about six months. There will be newer and better units by then. Isn't the edge of the art exciting and expensive? |
TBG, you are an eternal optimist! With stock units a comparison is likely to last six months, but with the speed that moders evolve their creations, the technological Darwinism in these devices have made comparisons valid for 6 to 8 weeks at most. There is no religion no more, I tell you! The fun is mounting. . . exponentially! |
Tbg, my 3910 had about 600 hours on it when we made the initial comparisons. My APL had about 100 hours, no clock, and missing a few other tweaks. I love them both, and may in fact buy another Exemplar if the price is right. IMHO the APL is still the best I have ever heard in the digital domain. I am interested in your thoughts too. I look forward to meeting you one day soon.
Best
Smilin |
This has been a very informative - and entertaining - thread. Since I am in the process of upgrading my digital front end I have appreciated the sincere efforts and opinions of all involved. Tbg mentioned the Einstein, which he intends to check out at CES. Hopefully those of you who make it to LV will also check out Ayre's new dedicated 2-channel, CD/SACD/DVD-A rig. I'll be working while you guys are playing so I'll look forward to your reports. |
Islandear,
I also am looking forward to hearing the new Ayre universal player as I would like to include it in my final shoot-out results. My dealer should be getting one in the next week. I have a lot of respect for Ayre's engineering talents and I absolutely loved their CX-7 cd player.
I'm disappointed that the new Ayre will not support multi-channel playback as I do own some very good mulit-channel discs. It also won't support DVD-video but that is less of a concern.
Welcome to the thread and please continue to provide your input!
AVGURU |
I listened to an interesting cd player the other day at a home based dealer. It was a new model from MBL and I think the model # was 1531. The retail is around 8k. Top loading and built like a tank. Something else to check out if anyone is looking in that price range. |
Avguru,
You mentioned using the Esoteric DV50 with an AA DAC. Sounds like you liked it; any more details? How does it stack against the APL and others you have liked?
Thanks,
Jonas |
AVGURU, I have a 2910 in my HT system and it may end up going to APL or Exemplar for mods, but my music system will remain 2-channel...for now anyway. Short list for my upgrade includes the Esoteric X-01, and the Meridian 808 (absolutely exceptional, but limited to redbook). Will be auditioning the new Ayre (believe it will be designated C5XE) in January. Steve Silverman at Ayre suggests that its redbook playback will rival the D1X - or any other platform out there...we'll see. I also like Charlie Hansen's lineup, because, unlike a lot of folks here on Audiogon, I prefer balanced electronics. Look forward to your observations re the Ayre. Best wishes from the Left Coast - have a happy and productive New Year! |
Jfz, I am sorry, I am going crazy getting ready for the Show in Las Vegas. I tried the Audio Desk Systeme machine with both CD and SACD. What is does, it brings more detail (from top to bottom), clarity and the soundstage is bigger. I find the performance more live-like. There is a problem though, with Hybrid (dual layer) SACDs, when beveled, you can see where the two layers meet. I am not sure how long a treated Hybrid will last as air might get inbetween the layers and distroy the Hybrid disc. The good part (for me) is that the Hybrid discs Stereo SACD information is stored at the inner side of the disc and the Multichannel information is toward the outer side. So, even if there is some air inside the disc after time it will affect the Multichannel region and not the Stereo region.
Regards,
Alex |
Just wanted to point everyone to a new thread just started, comparing X-01 with Emm, Teac P01, as well as the newest top of the line Sony and Denon players. Please see:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1104558827&openmine&zzGuidocorona&4&5#Guidocorona
Please note that while in this new comparison the EMM appears outwardly to be preferred to X-01, the characteristics the listener was looking for may be subtly different from those sought by some members of this thread's gang. But rather than discussing this issue at length here, I invite interested members of the Iron Audiofools to read/analyze/post to the thread I referred to.
|
Hi Oldpet & Alex
Did a quick comparison off the internet. These are the costs of the full mods for 2900/3910 (incl new clock but not the machine and optional bybee filters).
Underwood Level 2 Mods (SS) $1730
RAM (SS with silver coupling Transformer) $1750
Modwright Universal Truth (tube) $1950
APL (tube with master clock but not new DAC board ) $2605
Actually other than APL, the price differences are not that substantial but more reflect different approaches. Despite the touted advantages of tube (of which I subscribe to), both RAM and Underwood continue to use SS analog stages. One must however recognize that this is something some users may prefer because of listening preference or out of concern over heat generated and hence long term reliability.
Alex is the only one with his own custom DAC board but I have worked out the cost less the Board.
This brings me back to my original question. How do the RAM and Underwood machines stack up against the Modwright and APL and the DV50?
While it is difficult to quantify, how much of an improvement comes from Alexs own DAC board.
It seems to me that this shootout will be incomplete without bringing RAM and Underwood into the picture. I dont know if they can be persuaded to provide samples for audition.
Thanks and Best Wishes for 2005 to all |
|
I think shootouts are useless. Where it possible to capture the comparison in a truly revealing system in a great room and make this available to all for their personal evaluation, we could move ahead on this. But in any shootout there will be no consensus, there is no use of a perfect evaluations of the contributions of each component being evaluated, and no weighing of the benefit per dollar of each.
Better than a year ago at the VSAC sessions in Silverdale, John Tucker's, Dan Wright's, Alex Pachec's, and Allen Wright's mods were compared with the same music in the same space. The room was terrible but there were perhaps a hundred people listening. No poll was taken, but from my conversations afterwards I heard praise for all of the units and all characterized as the best. I personally declined to make such a decision.
About a year ago, I decided to evaluate all of what I thought were the best ac line filters. This cost me a good deal of money and drove me to dispair given the multiple combinations of which units in my system sounded best with which filter. Today I have none of these units in my system despite being very impressed with many of them. All of them had many positive reviews and much endorsement on Audiogon and AA. |
TBG, if the Chicago gang and its remote members find them enjoyable, rewarding, uplifting, revealing, exciting, an a welcome escape from dayly drudgery etc. . . the shootouts are useful, at least to them/us. In life very few things are actually formally 'useful'. I do understand how such communal North Eastern activities may go against your ascetic South Western grain, yet. . . |
Guidocorona, please don't assume that I am a Texan. Yes, I have lived here for 25 years, but I have also lived in Missouri, Illinois, Michigan, Oregon, California, Florida, New York, and Pennsylvania. Shootouts are not a communal activity but rather a sincere desire to get the best you can get or the best for the money. I understand this, but from personal experience I also know there will be little consensus and that one frequently likes some strengths of various units.
Yes, they can be fun and escape from more mundane aspects of daily life, but it is like going to a car show. It fills your hours and resolves little. In one car show I found that the only BMW, I could sit up in was the Z3. |
