Is there are anyone out there who has compared the Esoteric DV-50 to a number of dedicated red book only players (or other universal's) and found one that is SIGNIFICANTLY better?
I stress significantly because in my humble opinion the redbook playback (if comparison unit is just a cd cd player only )must be significantly better to justify losing DVD-A, SACD and DVD-Video capability.
I keep hearing there are better one box solutions and being a die hard 2 channel fan I would sell my DV-50 if I found a player in the same price range that sounds significantly better. But every time I do an AB comparision to other well respected units the DV-50 has slayed each and every one.
So far, it has eaten the lunch of the Classe CDP-10, Ayre CX-7, Linn Ikemi, Cairn Fog Vers. 2, Cary 306/300, Arcam DV 27A and CD 33T, Myryad CD 600, etc. It even betters a Sony SCD 777ES/MF Tri-Vista 21 transport/dac combo that I previously owned. I'm only comparing the DV-50 to single box cd or universal players, but I just wanted to mention the Sony/MF combo. I'm sure there are some dac/transport combo's that will handily beat the DV 50.
Some may say that the DV 50 should beat all the above because the of price point ($5,500 vs. average price of $3,000 for the above players). But I disagree since conventional wisdom says that stand alone players (especially with the pedigree of those mentioned above) should produce better redbook than a universal player trying to be a jack of all trades. Only the DV 27A does video plus audio. By the way, I was very impressed with the 27A as just a cd player. Of all the above I would say the Ayre was the best.
Next on my list is the Electrocompaniet EMC 1UP and the Resolution Audio Opus 21. However, I must tell you I am really impressed with the DV 50 and all the great reviews are absolutely true. I've noticed that many people who are using it or comparing to other players are using the RCA analog outs instead of the balanced outs. There is a significant improvement in sound if you use the balanced outs and I'm only interested in hearing comments from people who have compared it against other players using the balanced outs on the DV-50.
My system components are as follows:
B&W N803's speakers & HTM-1 center Cary Cinema 5 (5 x 200) amp Anthem D1 Statement pre/pro Esoteric DV 50 Acoustic Zen Satori Shotgun speaker wire Nirvana SX balanced interconnects from DV-50 to Anthem Acoustic Zen Matrix reference II interconnects from D1 to Cary No after market power cords or isolation equipment
My system sounds great! Those who comment please make sure to specify what specific improvements you heard over the DV 50 and what cdp were you comparing it against.
I thought it worth while pointing the participants of this once thriving thread to a glowing review of the SONY MODWRIGHT 999ES, very recently published on Positive Feedback. Please see: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/modwright999ES.htm The reviewer praises the ModWright 999ES unconditionally and without reserve nor hesitation, as having the very best sound of any source component ever made--regardless of digital or analog--ever. Good food for thought.
the old Philips SACD 1000 I think which was first used after mods by Meitner for to use with his DACs (no longer available as Meitner has stopped doing this as he launched his own transport). What I am saying is his own transport makes all the difference.
La45, I too ,Iam excited to hear Meitner gear, but so far no one has volunteer to show up on the shootout, in the Chicago area.I am sure they are good.
I recently had a better opp to compare the mod Phillips SACD player used as a transport vs my Meitner CDSD both thru my DCC2 as a friend wanted to test the CDSD. HUGE difference. The Phillips although OK ...highs were rolled off, transient attack was relatively muted, sound stage not as deep. Both for CDs and SACDs. So if you were making the comparisons between the modded players such as the APL vs the Phillips transport-DAC6 etc...then I see why some of you preferred the mod players (again I have no exp) and suggest you owe it to yourselves to try the Meitner gear with its own transport.
Alex has posted a tidbit of tantalizing info on his APL-HIFI.com site He has apparently commenced modifications of the Esoteric UX-1. No further info is given at this point. Perhaps Alex could post here with some more info on this latest project.
If you are interested in Alex's work, his dedicated thread is probably the best place to look: http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewforum.php?f=71
now be nice. This is an unpaid, unsolicited notice. I am an owner of an apl/denon 3910, but paid the going rate. Since it isn't completely broken in, I can't give my final impressions of the 3910, but as of now they are the same as the more enthusiastic owners. The good news is there is some really great digital available.
By the way one thing missing from most of the commentary of the various players discussed...including the listening session....was whether the same holds for both redbook CD and SACDs. In my brief experience dealing with stock players (have no exp with mod players unfortunately) there is a big diff. Some players do SACD very well but poorly on CD, others somewhat the other way around (or better put do not really bring out the best in the SACD format) etc. Would appreciate if those who comment in the future could touch on both areas separately. Many thanks.
One more thing. It should be noted that Brian's G&D Transport and his Entec DAC aren't stock units, but have also been modified. As such, i was curious as to how well the modified "redbook only" system stood up to the modified "universal" systems. Since i'm using the same transport as Brian, i'm glad to see that he felt that his system could still hang with all of the "new & improved" versions reasonably well : ) Sean >
Sean, based upon my limited exposure to the other units I'll keep the G&D/Entec but am always open to suggestions. We didn't listen to the combo except for a while before the other players were put in, and not all were present to hear it. Anyone wanting to hear it is welcome to come by and compare it against theirs or my turntable - a Rockport was used as a reference for voicing the G&D/Entec.
I find some of the other posts to this thread to be (pick as many as you wish) misleading, entertaining, confusing, indignant, funny, misguided, and/or having vested interests. And some others are informative and insightful. Yet some feel an obligation to defend their choices to the death but deny it. Life's too short for that. One shouldn't forget it's all about the music and enjoying it.
Wow!!! I don't know how i missed this thread or all the fun, but it was very entertaining & educational to read. Not only in terms of who likes what best, but in terms of human nature and how we first perceive things and then how we deal with them.
As a side note, 711 may have been very vocal about his "love" of the APL 3910 and overly critical of AVguru's initial "sound" with the stock DV-50 in place. At the same time though, AV never refuted and in fact confirmed that 711's APL 3910 sounded far more lifelike with much greater dimensionality in his system. The fact that AV had espoused much the same "vocality" for his love of the DV-50 prior to being exposed to the APL and ModWright units seems to have been somewhat overlooked. Nothing wrong with "loving" a product, so long as things are kept in perspective.
The one conclusion that i've come to is that some people really like the products that they have. The thing that i have to take into consideration here is that some of these people have had way more in-depth experience with many different players than some of the others in this comparison. As such, i have to grant those with a wider level of experience a bit more weight in their opinions and findings. As we all know, having time to get to know each component on a long term basis, and realizing all of the various strengths, weaknesses and quirks, is vital to how happy you will be with the unit in the long run.
As to the charges being levied against Alex / APL working with shills on this forum, i do not know the man nor have i ever talked to him. The fact that Tvad and Brainwater, who have no axe to grind and are both honest individuals, speak highly of this player tells me a lot of what i wanted to know. This is not to say that the APL is necessarily the best player out there ( i have NO idea and there probably isn't a "best" ), but that there are "honest" people praising the worthiness of this machine and of Alex's work. I know that Tvad has been both honest and critical of the components / cabling that he's tried in the past and spoken of publicly. One look at Brent's componentry and installation should tell you where he's coming from. Obviously, Brent has no reason to promote a product that he doesn't have complete faith in as he could afford whatever it is that he wants. Coming from such a source, his recommendation of the APL modified units speaks volumes to me.
Other than that, it would be nice to have a really well organized "listening session" with a diversity of sources. Only problem that i see is that it would be hard to standardize a test where some machines are XLR based, some are RCA based, etc... On top of that, different machines may have different output impedances and "load up" differently into various cabling / preamp combo's.
As such, the results from any such test would strictly pertain to how well things "jive" in that specific installation using those specific components. Nothing more, nothing less. The fact that personal preferences, differences in listening acuity and seated listening position throw further variables into the equation only makes such a test "less than authoritative". None the less, i do think that such "tests" can be fun, educational and provide a great source of info for others to learn from and follow along with. As such, i'd like to offer a big "THANK YOU" to all of those that contributed their time, effort and componentry to making this happen. It was a blast, even if i read the whole thread in less than 24 hours : )
Brian: Out of curiosity, did you listen to your G&D / Entec front end in comparison to any of these? I'd be curious as to your thoughts on the subject. Drop me an email if you want to discuss this privately.
This brings something to mind that i'd like to point out though. That is, i've always said that a "good" basic unit that is "lovingly modified" could easily beat a more expensive, mass produced machine. The results of this thread tend to support those previous comments. Sean >
PS.... I would have liked to have seen something from Ric Schultz / EVS in this "pile-up", but it may have only added one more voice / point of contention to deal with. This is not to say that Ric's units are as good / better than the others out there, just that i personally would have liked to see what others thought of them and how they would have stood up under direct comparison. Having dealt with Ric in the past and having owned several of his products, i'd like to think that he's capable of "hanging" with the big boys. I was glad to see one of Kyle's partially modified units compete, which provided yet another source of diversity to the comparisons being made.
I certainly am still on my quest. I am reworking my system presently, and still waiting for the Modwright 3910. I will have the APL, Modwright, and TRL. Maybe an Exemplar at some time, but I believe I have what it takes to compare. I do invite those to audition in my home stating the middle of next month. I have been trying to fine tune my system for a while now, and keep $$$$. Lates additions include electraglide statement II revised revision X 3, BPT sig 3.5, anti cable speaker wire, Reimer Teton speakers, and I am working now on multiple interconnects. Maybe a Hydra 8 soon too. Basically between, work, my daughters Bat Mitzvah, next week, and audio, my head is spinning. My quest continues.....good luck on yours.
Luke, Thanks for the post. I think that several times during this thread it went far off course, perhaps because the stated intention of finding that 'perfect' player was never fulfilled. In fact, there were weeks at a time where no progress whatsoever was made in that regard. And then most of the main players abandoned the quest midstream, leaving the rest of us wondering what the heck they concluded about the various players.
So no offense meant. I think we were simply attempting to combat the boredom and/or disappointment with the thread with a bit of humor. That is, until one of the original group might happen along and resume the focus of the thread. Unfortunately, that wish never materialized. All the best, Howard
Saxman, apart from the EMM transport I met all of your conditions in urging me to listen to the EMM system. It is not that I disliked the EMM as I did dislike the dCS gear, I just thought other unit were better and cheaper. If I get a chance, however, I will relisten to the EMM digital front end.
I apologise for upsetting so many of you. I guess there may be a an age difference accounting for my lack of enthusiasm for such humour, though I could be wrong. Nonetheless it seems there is little to be gained from this thread now. I am interested in learning about hifi not humour(which can be of a rather sarcastic nature a lot of the time). I therefore see it as a waste of my time opening up this thread.
Good luck to you all in your search of the ultimate.
TBG, please, go hear the complete Emm(dac and transport)in a good system with no silver cables. You might even try a tube pre amp. You will be surprised. I agree with Kenryhk. Is it worth??? Who knows! You don't see too many on audiogon.
I know this is late but I missed some days. I've been suffering through a protracted illness and have been listless and tired, a relative is dying and my brother's hooked on drugs(too much PrAT from his Linn 'table). However your modding post had me laughing out loud and forgetting my problems. Thanks, you're right after 850 posts this whole thread is a little punch drunk and a little levity was definitely needed! This whole thread has paralyzed me for any digital upgrade. Why in a few months the latest and greatest will be replaced and the differences won't be subtle, they'll be like night and day, blacker backgounds and sound exactly like the mastertape. The good thing is this crippling paralysis means that digitalis upgrade-itis won't interfere with my upcoming turntable purchase. After all analog is more holographic, warmer, more accurate and detailed with blacker backgrounds and sounds exactly like the mastertape and the difference is like night and day, like a veil had been lifted and the nakedness of music was exposed. As soon as I get my analog situation squared away I'm coming back for that $69 special! I just know that it'll be more.....have better....and more extended.......and the differences? Well, they won't be subtle.......
I wld luv to try the modded units but where I live (Hong Kong) they r difficult to come by. Hey, I was told I was the first non-professional in Asia to purchase the DDC2 (with CDSD)...I did compare the Phillips transport to the CDSD: no comparison. CDSD is vastly superior.
Tbg- Mahalo for the feedback. From what I've read(TAS)the EMM Labs CDSD transport is greatly superior to the "troublesome Phillips." Your point about the Reimyo is well taken. Some people are not intested in SACD, and are still looking for a great Redbook machine.
Kana, although it was the EMM modification of the Phillips sacd 1000 with the DAC6 which I had, I did do the comparison you suggest with both the Allen Wright Level 4 Sony CDP3000 and the Exemplar 2900, not the much better Exemplar 3910.
Initially, I was very happy with the EMM, but when the Allen Wright unit came in, it was very difficult to identify which unit was playing. Given that my investment in the Sony was much less, I placed the EMM on Audiogon and sold it immediately, ironically to a moder.
When the Exemplar without the Siltech wiring came in, I was shocked at how much it had improved over the earlier version. It was more dynamic and quieter with an exceptional soundstage. Especially on redbook, it outperformed the Allen Wright unit, which again sold quickly.
Later, the Exemplar was very greatly improved using Siltech connection wire. Later still I got the Exemplar 3910 which was greatly superior to the 2900, especially playing sacds.
I never had the Meitner transport, but it has to be more satisfying than the troublesome Phillips. I doubt, however, whether it helps the overall sound of the EMM enough to close the gap with the best modified units, either in sound or prices.
I have not had the Reimyo CDP777 in my system, but others tell me it is exceptional with it special K2 chip. Were money of no concern, I would buy the Reimyo just to play my cds.
Henryhk- it would great if someone like you with EMM Labs gear could borrow one of these modified Denon 3910s and a DV50S and finally report how they compare.
let's try 2 get back 2 the topic at hand....one shoot out is over and there have been various cdps discussed which were not included in the shootout...meitner, reiymo etc. any others that are worthy of contention? seems like there are quite a few new universal or sacd/cd players coming out without much prof mag reviews done yet (or ones that are planned but not yet commercially launched). for example, the goldmund universal player...did any one try it? there are a lot more too...
Many people come to these threads with a firm agenda. They mandate what they will/won't tolerate, and often disappear shortly thereafter when they can't seem to quash the prevailing playfulness of these threads. Luke, you obviously have a lot of passion and enthusiasm for this hobby. I only hope that you allow others to express theirs as well. Stick around, and laugh a little, huh?
FWIW, double-pressed anchovy oil emits less odor and offers a more uniform residue dispersion. Last time I looked it was still available at Rat Shack. If you prefer a smoother, tubey sound, peanut oil (preferably Indonesian stock) is the ticket!
Audiojoy, If you found my humor rude and disrespectful, better look in the mirror. I've always been amused by the fact that almost ANY post will rub SOMEONE the wrong way. I could be the bigger man and let your comments go, but ....HMM....NOT. After all, I'm a 50 year old schoolboy creating boring innuendos. And now youve rubbed me wrong! LOL.
I remind you of your patients? You remind me of the lawyer who can't stand his profession and must become an alcoholic to deal with it.
If you are the professional you profess to be, you would know that humor is healthy. What more did you need to know after over 850 posts? Fact is, after about 30 posts, what informational value does any thread have?
If you need to relax, listen to your system instead of talking about it. It is you that sounds depressed. Lighten up.
Luke, If you feel that you have to put up with your patients, maybe you need a vacation, my man. Or perhaps a different occupation altogether. Did someone force you into that career choice? Or coerce you into reading our "schoolboy nonsense," as you referred to it? Change the channel, or learn how to laugh, buddy. Life's too short for such tunnel vision arrogance.
Have you ever considered that your attitude might actually exacerbate the depressive state of your patients? Because you've certainly brought that tone to this thread by crushing every person's attempt to spread a little humour.
I'm ordering my anchovy oil today, headmaster. Bow out if you prefer...
To be honest, Conrad Johnson actually did use rubber bands to suspend a nuvister tube board in their Premier series phono pre amp in the 80's. The nuvistors were so prone to vibration and mechanical noise that tapping on the cabinet made one helluva ring throughout the system. I did experiment with different types of rubber/silicone bands as an alternative.
I believe I paid $1200 for that unit back then, and it was of usual CJ design - goldish color faceplate on full 19" cabinet. Imagine my suprise to open the cabinet and find only a transformer and 3" x 5" board suspended by rubber bands!
my comments are meant to reflect that the thread has decayed into nonsense again. People are using this thread just for a laugh. Well that is a complete waste of my time. I am on this thread for hifi not boring schoolboy inuendos.
Yes you lot remind me of my patients when they are depressed. i.e talk a lot of b..ls..t. I have to put up with them all day, I can't be doing with more of the same when I want to relax, and reflect on my next move for my hifi system. Boring boring boring, this thread is now offically dead in my book. Nothing left to gain from it.
Tvad, you know we both like to cook, its ok to put the Anchovies on the tubes, the smell is nothing compare to the benefit you will get from the music. If you play Jacinta, She might come out on the speaker to search the smell.
Brian, I am ahead of you on my order, please be patient,Tom is only by himself.Do him a favor Put your Magnavox to your freezer for 1 week.As you know he hand picked parts.
Tvad (Grant) why cant we have a shootout on cooking?
Would anyone Like to have a Shoot-out in the SF bay area? I have a Sony 9000 with the latest and greatest from Modwright ie Alan Kimmel MUstage instead of srpp, no opamp,Mundorf caps,latest power supply. Alex and Warren Gregoire could bring their latest. We just need a EMM and one more mod unit either a Exemplar or a Esoteric. My number is 650-552-9900 and ask for Ben so we can work out the details.
Audiojoy4 - It has been a dreary week in February here in the States. As you suspect, the weather's influence is taking its toll. Some reach for handguns; others for a beer (and then they post).
well i guess you are all cracking up as tends to happen from time to time on this forum. Funny I wonder if the weather has got anything to do with it? I have enough psychiatric cases on my surgery list to keep me going, cant be doing with anymore. Guess its time to leave also.
Thanks for the comments. Yeah, it certainly could have been the silver wire, though my system has the same and I find it highly engaging. It hits me on an emotional level, for sure. But you never know, because I've heard systems sound completely different with a simple cable change.
Still, I suspect that it had more to do with the speakers, which as I said they reproduce sound perfectly, but with a definition that I find a bit off-putting. As well, the player was brand new, and if anything I find that as components break in, they either warm up to me, or I to them.
Tgun5, I'm really excited about your modded player. This will allow me to save oodles of money for other components. In fact, after scouring the threads, I believe that I have found so many 'giant killers' that I should be able to piece together an A+ system for under $700. And your modded unit will be right at the hub of it all!
Tom this is Bon, I want to order a TJR with SonyModwright inside.I want you to upgrade the rubber band by immersing them to KIMCHI,ANCHOVIES,But I will drive to your place, 5 hours drive right? So I can hear it for myself.Your money will be in your mailbox tonight.
Boa2, Forgot to mention the price. The TJR Magnavox will be sold for only $69. Its going to take $3200 in DV-50s to make each TJR unit, but I will absorb that cost as part of research and development.
The unit also uses a new proprietary chassis strap, so that you can easily show off the interior of your TJR. Eliminating the use of screws or bolts, a velcro strap holds the chassis together. This unique system eliminates the unsightly duct tape that we used on the prototype. Actually the duct tape wasnt so bad, we just didnt want to give rolls of duct tape away with each unit.
I will make replacement rubber suspension bands available through the parts department. They are $5 each, only because they are imported for me by WalMart. I hand pick the rubber bands from bags of 100 and each must pass stringent testing which is secret.
Boa 2, I have Alex's apl sacd 1000 at present. My initial impressiions was one of even handedness across all areas including musicality and realism. My system includes the hyperion speakers, manley retro 300bs and a passive transformer preamp. The cables are all copper plated silver and not pure silver. I wonder if this may have helped bring out the chill you look for. This unit of course is not his latest and I was using an isolation transformer to get the 240v conversion for the uk. Some designers feel that the isolation transformer is critical at the input for sound quality. The other factor one should take into consideration is the fact that the phillips sacd 1000 was always noted by many listeners as being a very capable player when it came to communicating the emotional impact of a piece of music.
I use to use the reimyo DAP 777, and thought this was the first major advance in digital audio in years. However, as soon as i heard the apl sacd, I realized that not only was the step forward gigantic but it was what i had been waiting for all of my hifi listening life which spans 20 years. A sound that could at once be totally comfortable and competitive with the best analogue rigs. I own the platine verdier, graham and transfiguration set up, stevens and billlington step up transformer with GSP.
Tgun5 - That was a fine use for the DV-50. I didn't realize you were so handy. For the finishing touch, if you can find some pine tar, or bitumen, or an asphalt reduction tar and then apply it liberally over the digital chips, I really think you would be in heaven.
Tgun5, Where do I get one? And can you keep the modded machine under $3K? Because that's the limit on my 40th birthday present.
Ehfm, I should have mentioned before that it was specifically the associated gear that had me question whether or not we might end up buying an APL 3910. Between Alex's amp and the Dynaudio speakers, I found utter perfection in the reproduction, but not an emotional connection with the music. I like to get chills down my spine when bathed by the music, and in this case I did not. However, the player--which was only about 5 hours old, by the way--did absolutely everything I would want from a source. I'm just not entirely sure that I would find such an intimacy with the music if it became the centerpiece of our system. I'm pretty convinced that I would, but I might just have to listen once more. Hope that helps to further the details.
My modded Magnavox! I just purchased a Magnavox MSD124 on an open box special at Best Buy for only $29. I was planning on using it in my boat this summer, but after 5 bottles of wine Sunday night, I remembered that they used to modify Magnavox CD players years ago with great success.
I started the modification at about 9:00pm Sunday night. After taking the cover off, I realized that my first problem was going to be the small chassis size. The other was that I didnt have any parts to do the modification. I decided the best thing to do was first, open another bottle of wine, and second, use my Esoteric DV-50 as the parts base machine. After all, I could always replace the parts tomorrow.
I went to my garage and got my hammer and drill, and proceeded to hammer the top of the cabinet to make room for the larger transformer from the DV-50. I had to also pound out the sides as the cabinet was a little thinner. I then realized that I didnt have a schematic for the Magnavox but it didnt matter for I dont know how to read schematics. I must admit the Magnavox didnt have the quality of parts inside that I expected for $29, and I was now looking at replacing many more parts from the DV-50 than I had first planned.
I was about to give up and then had a great idea. I totally gutted the Magnavox and DV-50 both. I moved all components from the DV-50 over to the Magnavox chassis. I then suspended the boards with rubber bands (I learned this from Conrad Johnson) so that I never needed to use Symposium or Aurios suspensions again.
You wont believe how great the Magnavox now sounds! It is an incredible improvement for a $29 player! I think Im going to call it the TJR Magnavox. I will admit the chassis is a little bloated on the sides and top, but Im an audiophile so sound is where its at for me. I hope to have a few of these players in reviewers hands after I get another case of wine next week.
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