Equalizer in a Hi Fi system

Regarding the YouTube videos, they are somewhat helpful, but ultimately one needs the gear in one’s home on one’s system. Yes, my 2 CO’s have that amazing treble dial, with its sparkle and beauty. The Michelangelo did that really really well also. CO could hit deeper and harder with the bass dials though. Without noticeable phase effects/ mids blurring. The MA could do same up to a point. Really great piece of kit it is as well. 

Last comment, Pete, on your comments on how the treble sounded on the YouTube videos of Mike Deming demoing the Charter Oak. Mike used broad bells for all the bands. No shelf filters. My experience comparing the CO with the Avalon and Millennia EQs was that for HF boosts, bell sounds more natural than shelf. I love that the Wes gives you that option on every band, including HF band. I am hoping your YouTube observations with HF with the Wes involved them demoing a treble shelf, not bell. 

Yes i think we are on the same page and i am on the right track as you say.

Hey there is currently a 2018 PEQ-1 similar to yours on Reverb. Serial 1186.

Any good? 

"I am hoping your YouTube observations with HF with the Wes involved them demoing a treble shelf, not bell"

Yes me too! But we will know all answers soon. There was one guy already responded to me who knows the Wes and other popular EQ`s. He says the Wes won`t really do what CO, MA, Maag etc do in the HF, specifically Air band sound, he said it is not that kind of EQ even though it is extended in HF hmmm.

Me personally i could care less what other features the EQ has. If it does not have the best purest HF then it would be 100% deal breaker for me. 

 So yes it will be very interesting what you determine.

BTW i also love the fact the Wes uses 12au7 and 12at7. Two of my special favorite ever signal tubes belong in these families and i bet would sound great in this unit.

If this thing is capable as good or better HF than these other EQ`s then i would be soooo tempted to buy one too it looks crazy!  But as i said i will trust your opinions before dreaming anything silly hahaha.  

@petieboy12003 , I will get back with you on that unit. Need to research it further 

Pete, I sure hope the person you spoke with re the Wes is wrong!  You and I are cut from the same cloth when it comes to HF air band!

For all the unit’s rails of power and with it using passive circuitry and high quality inductors, it should be able to do air band with aplomb. 

Pete, I have info from Mike, if you’ll reach back out to me in private 

I have been demoing the Wes Audio NGTubeEQ the last 3 days. It is Uber expensive but what you get is a super clean sounding unit with all the musicality of my Charter Oaks, in other words amazing SQ. It is finicky at first as a full parametric with a gazillion permutations on how to set it up. I won’t lie. It has been 3 full days of intensive tinkering to get it dialed in. Now that I have it dialed in I can say it sounds utterly amazing. As it should for 6 grand. But the greatest thing about this unit is that you can give it huge bass boosts if necessary and it won’t distort the line like the CO sometimes would with loud compressed rock recordings. For 6 K the Wes is bulletproof against this kind of distortion. Love it!

And a big congratulations goes out to @petieboy12003 for his purchase of that 2018 Charter Oak which he and I verified that Mike Deming made. I now have played with enough EQs, including the most recent Wes Audio, to say with assurance that Pete just bought one of the very best sounding hardware equalizers on the planet. As I suspected and have now proven you have to spend 6 K to get something that sounds like my beloved CO. No wonder I’ve been so in love with this piece for over 10 years!

And a big thank you once again to tlcocks who single-handedly is responsible my latest audio acquisition Charter Oak PEQ-1

Can`t wait to hear CO in my 118db horn system. I am expecting huge failure (noise?) or either huge success, due to several reasons, mainly since there is so much inherent/available headroom within this system.  

That Wes EQ just looks STUNNING one of the best looking pieces ever imo and with so many features and possible settings. If sounds on par with CO, as Tim states, and i for one believe him, then this really must be a sure upgrade for him. Albeit a bit pricey but hey...

So congrats to you too Tim! 

Yes, the NGTubeEQ is something. I am currently listening to Alice In Chains - Dirt on it. I have chosen with this album, as I’ve always done with it, to get very aggressive with the U shape. I’ve never though enjoyed cuts with any equalizer, either in bands or master gain. I have always found that that sounds worse than boosts with a high quality EQ. This new EQ is no different in this respect. Essentially I build two tone dials with the EQ. Bass and treble. That’s how I like to do it. Others may do it differently. The challenge with this method is clean boosts without distortion or blurred mids from phase shift. My CO has always done this unbelievably well. Now back to the album Dirt. The Wes does it even better with extreme settings. There is zero distortion that I hear. Zero phase shift that I hear. The best way I can state it is it’s as if the band took a time machine to the modern day, and mixed and mastered all over again in the studio with one of the best studio engineers. The album is modernized. It is rich, layered, textured, nuanced. It is full throated. The mids have taken zero damage. IT DOESN’T SOUND EQUALIZED. No artificial etch. No blurring. No phase shift. It sounds DEEP too. Not 2-D like many digital algorithms impose. Or cheaper analog solutions impose. THIS EQ IS THE REAL DEAL. I’m fairly flabbergasted. It sounds BETTER in all audiophile respects when engaged as compared to true bypass. Is it louder?  Yes, because I’ve not cut master gain, which even on this unit denigrates SQ. The key point here is thankfully I don’t have to because 6 grand buys you rails of power and massive headroom. Oh, and all comments are wrt the SS output. Not tube output. Don’t like the tube output. Stock tubes are JJ. I can and will do better and one day roll them. I’m in no hurry though, with what I’m hearing!

Enjoyed reading that and Dirt(Rooster!!!!) is one of my fav albums so i totally follow what you are saying. Really happy Wes is working out for you and i hope CO works in my system which should also be motivating for me to one day try Wes too! 

Looking forward your impressions hooked up to big system.  

You will love CO in your system. Actually, my headphone chain is higher fidelity than my loudspeaker system. So I’m taking my time soaking up the best SQ I’ve ever heard on headphones for a bit longer. But the Wes will be checked out in the big rig though. Don’t worry!  Actually, I’m afraid it’ll sound so amazing there that I’ll be inclined to go a little crazy and buy one for there too!  Uhhh, then the divorce and the REAL cost begins!!

Am enjoying the heck out of this instrument. It is a joy to equalize with such a precision high end device. It is so clean and accurate. BUT…I still love the CO sound!  I love both of these equalizers!  The CO is more rounded but more euphonic. The bell curves on it sound beautiful. The CO has an air of sophistication to its sound that’s hard to deny. I will never get rid of my two. 
I am now playing with tube mode on the Wes and have emulated my same settings but backed down on the bass Q width. Treble filter identical. NOW, this mode sounds really great!  Such fun! 

Yep. Back to Charter Oak after all weekend with Wes. CO is with a sweeter air band, a tighter punchier bass and an overall more euphonic lovely sound. However it’s less of a detail monster than Wes, being essentially more rounded. I have always said the CO turns my solid state into the best sounding tube sound you’ll ever hear. It’s a very sophisticated sound. Beautiful sheen and gloss. Can’t honestly say which unit I like best. Both. For different reasons.

I have put the Wes Audio NGTubeEQ in the loudspeaker system. It’s even better there. Has SOTA resolution and musicality. Endlessly tweakable, if so desired. You can sonically sculpt the sound anyway you want with incredible fidelity. That’s what you get for 6 K in the hardware analog EQ department. Kudos!

Have reached new heights of audiophilism with the aforementioned Alice In Chains album with Wes in big rig. For 6 K you should with decent hi fi gear be able to get this album, which is recessed cymbals and decreased bass kick and forward mids due to loudness wars/ studio compression, to sound great. It’s even greater than before with the use of tube output combined with use of gain and iron pad dials. Great great feature on Wes. You turn up the gain say 3 dbs to slightly overdrive the tubes then iron pad attenuates that extra output. The end result is more resolute saturated mids and better bass heft. Meaning not only does it sound better but you can back off a tad on bass gain, always a good thing with EQ in general. AND every new move you make can be directly instantly compared to your last setting with the stored presets. 
And more importantly, I can be EXTREMELY exacting with listening and instant A-B comparisons as I sit in my listening spot with my Bryston remote and go back and forth with tape loop monitor button, toggling between the sound of my source > DAC > preamp > amp (purest way possible, true true bypass I call it) versus source > DAC > preamp > EQ (active) > amp. Note that pressing ‘Bypass’ on the EQ, the circuitry in this nomenclature looks like this: source > DAC > preamp > EQ in bypass > amp. 
I have been an utter mad scientist for days now with this thing, but what I’m getting out of it is incredible.

I still though stand by my conclusion that CO PEQ-1 is a MORE MUSICAL sounding equalizer. Which, in the end, trumps detail/ resolution for me. 

@mijostyn , any updates on your DEQX adventures?

@tlcocks  It has and is still more of an adventure than I would like. We just got another update and it is improving. A lot of it is my fault. My system, because of its dipole line source nature, is difficult to measure the way their system demands. At this time I am having great success using its crossover and EQ to correct the speakers manually with the room control section on bypass. The DACs and sonic character of the unit are first class. Streaming Qobuz with Volumia is faultless. I got an old Shure V15 V MR and put a Jico SAS/B stylus on it. The MM phono stage sounds great although it could use a couple of dB more gain. 

From my experience with digital signal processing and target curves since 1996 I know exactly what I want to see and hear. I use both my hearing and amplitude measurement to adjust the EQ. I could never get what I want to hear without it. 

I would love to hear what you’ve accomplished thus far. Also, if you ever come to know of someone in Florida doing what you’re doing with DEQX and can demo it then please let me know. I wish you the best of luck with your continued success with DEQX. 
I have had a great deal of fun exploring the various analog boxes. My curiosity over DSP remains strong though!

@mijostyn ,Mike, do you recommend any other DSP processing services/ software that’s nearly as good as DEQX and can be demoed in Florida?

Thanks,

Tim

tatooedtrackman

First of all, I become irritated with information being based on these pages which boils down to primarily opinion.  Schitt was one of the first companies to recently re-introduce EQ toys into 2-channel home stereo.  Schitt is a consumer audio company who builds functional products perhaps for the hobbyist.  However, such a product (Loki max) falls far shorts of professional grade mastering EQs.  I know MANY who have invested tens of thousands (and some who've invested 6 figures) into their home 2 channel audio systems.  I believe you are selling yourself short if you fail to focus some of your research on professional fully balanced EQs used in professional recording and mastering studios.  Yes, they are more expensive but not financially out-of-reach for those who are already purchasing $25k turntables, DACs, streamers, mono block amplifiers, etc.   Neve, Chandler, BAE (to name a few devices) that come with high quality external power supplies, undoubtedly produce the best sonic results.  Pro EQ modules will not increase the noise floor in your system.  And the cardinal rule is that EQ should always be used "gently" so as to not destroy the musicality of your system.  Lastly, using EQ is a much more "precise and surgically appropriate" way to subtly tweak problem frequencies, versus spending thousands on changing out interconnect cables, power cables, etc as a means to achieving EQ changes (of sorts) on a hit-or-miss level, as many audiophiles often do.  I know of people who have gone so far as to change out their speakers due to their use of an overly bright amplifier, and vice versa. That is a very expensive way to achieve "imprecise" EQ changes that may not result in being close to the sound you are looking for.  

@jymc , do you have one that you use?

@tlcocks  The easiest system to use is Dirac Live. I know people who are using the MiniDSP SHD Studio and two high quality dacs with great success. It also streams and has a built in equalizer. I have personally set up two such systems and turned two rather pedestrian systems into exceptional performers given their price points. 

@mijostyn , which sounds best?  Trinnov, Dirac, or the mini DSP?  I have conversed with the Trinnov dealer and have access. Want the one that SOUNDS best. Price no object. Want good tone curves superimposed on all the microphone measurements based correction. This DSP preamp correction will, once tuned in, be compared directly against my best analog EQ. 
Thanks Mike!

Best,

Tim

Thinking Trinnov. You tell me. Also can operate Trinnov preamp from iPad. Like that. Don’t want use computer. 

@tlcocks You can use an iPad with any of them. I did not go with the Trinnov because their bass management was not versatile enough. The DEQX is not ready for prime time yet, but it will be the best of the bunch eventually. MiniDSP uses Dirac Live and it is easy to use. I currently recommend people get a MiniDSP SHD Studio and two high quality DACs like the Benchmarks or the Bricasti M1 if you have the money.  

@mijostyn , so I’m looking at manual. You DO need a computer connected to the SHD via wired to use Dirac Live, yes?  iPad only a remote for basic functions?

@tlcocks  I think you are better off with a computer connected to it by USB. The ap has a steep learning curve. Using Dirac Live is easy, but getting use to the control functions of the SHD requires some learning as the program was written by Asians and they think differently then we do. I think trying to learn it on an iPad would slow you down. Once the SHD is full programmed to your liking all you need is the remote.

Thanks Mike

Having looked now at both manuals, it appears the Trinnov is easier to use and understand. It’s considerably pricier but with that SHOULD come better results sonically. Within the next year or less, I will buy and try a Trinnov Amethyst. 

If your speakers have a crossover chances are you are using an equalizer.

My speakers cross over at 2.5 kHz. Dipole tweeters to midrange woofers. I only use a pro analog EQ for tone control. Did you mean somehow an equalizer built into the speakers?  I’m confused. 

@tlcocks  things like baffle step correction and the crossover is altering FR to blend the drivers.

Food for thought, "The more you limit a driver in the frequency domain, the less well defined it's output will be in the time domain" Stereophile Nov 2004.

Ok yes. I understand. Makes sense. 

@tlcocks 

No, I do not use a professional EQ in my home 2-ch system.  I have used EQ units (together with several other processors), principally in a recording studio setup, where any "processing effect", can be routed through a patch bay, and be inserted into a signal path.  Of course the studio setting is very different from a home set-up.  In the studio, the "raw" talent sources are always unique/different, so the engineer will select as necessary whatever processing my be required.  This is totally different from the playback of commercially (finished) mastered (analog or digital) music on our home systems.  It's the mastering engineer's job to produce masters that will be highly listenable on MANY different systems.  Whether your system can get the maximum sonic results out of the mastering engineers efforts is dependent on the synergy of the gear choices you make.  As you know, theoretically, if you have well matched speakers, amps, preamp, sources, and even cables, you should be able to experience the result the mastering engineer intended in a sonically pleasing fashion.      

Yes, agreed to all. But I love having hi fi tone controls. I have learned in my experimentation with many different pro EQ’s that some certainly are more appropriate in post production playback than others. I think the less complex EQ coupled with good circuit design and quality parts can lead to a very musical and gratifying listening experience. While more complex instruments with more functions and more filters can be too clinical or analytical. My next steps in my hi fi evolution are trying room corrective digital EQ as I’ve previously mentioned, but at least as important, upgrading speaker cable or even speakers and streaming sources to provide the higher fidelity foundation BEFORE any EQ is dialed in. Luckily, I have had for a while now a SQ that I’m really into in a big way.