"Does anyone know what is so special about the big M-S turntables, apart from their obvious build quality, which can after all be matched by several of today's high end belt drive turntables?" Hi Lew, In my opinion, the string drive, combined with high mass and speed control, is key to the performance of those turntables. The string is a limited, or more properly described as a calculated, slip. A typical belt drive has inherent belt creep that is difficult to overcome, so it is typically less accurate overall. That means a string drive is easier to control for accuracy, and Micro Seiki made a competent controller for that task. Then, the mass does its job with inertia and resonance control. All that makes for a very good turntable, and the other features are lesser in importance, but because of their precision play an important role. Caveat: Note my use of "in my opinion" and "typically" in this post. I have heard some exceedingly good belt drives that are more traditional in their construction. The Fairchild 750 is one example, but there are others. |
Dear Mosin, dear Lewm, dear In_shore, while I myself are quite an admirer of the Micro Seiki skeleton turntables (RX-1500 g-versions, RX-3000, RX-5000 and SX-8000 in particular), I nevertheless understand the initial "cold welcome" it received from HP and others back in the early 1980ies in the US. Many reviewers back then favored the LP12 and an unsuspended MS with an untreated platter is certainly sound-wise not to everybody's liking (it is not to mine ...). The bell-shape of the Micro Seiki's platter (each of the above safe for the SX-8000 w/stainless steel platter and glued glass platter underneath for the air bearing) is certainly not the best possible. Have a look at the photos of Syntax' RX-5000 to get an impression what I mean. A RX-5000 with solid platter on top of it's stock platter is a completely different beast and gives a shocking improve to the MS's sound performance. What is needed further to really explore the possibilities of the Micro Seiki is a good suspension. Use a Vibraplane (Kinetic Systems) or Minus-K with additional load and you will explore an all new sonic experience with the Micro Seiki. Micro Seiki itself realized it late in it's history and the SX-8000 II came with a floating pad (at least an attempt in the right direction). As it stands, a stock RX-1500G, RX-3000, RX-5000 or SX-8000 is a turntable with incredibly built quality and some real smart ideas topped with a time-less form-follows-function design. To really show off it's sonic possibilities however a few points (suspension, platter) need to be addressed carefully. In stock condition it is sonically only 60% of what is possible. Cheers, D. P.S. to put the principle of inertia w/ string/thread drive to perfect function is another topic. It works - and when it does it is really stunning. But it is too often misunderstood and not applied correctly. |
Dertonam, Just to add my 2 cents - turntables owned - Linn, Pink Triangle, Sota, Oracle, Well Tempered, Roksan, Garrard 301 - current turntable used and much preferred is the Final Labs Parthenon - this is like a micro seiki steroids. It is in fact the same turntable used by my friend Warwick Mickell who was the Foreign Correspondent for The Absolute Sound Magazine in the early years. The key improvements over the Micro's are - solid base ( SPZ some composite alloy/lead ) solid platter ( not a bell ) with inverted bearing, copper mat ( twice the weight of the micto's ), and most importantly the reconstructed ac power generator & thread drive for accurate speed control. Kitamura the designer was most upset by the TAS review by HP as the turntable was reviewed mounted on an air suspension. The design wicks energy away from the record and a rigid platform is recommended. The base I use that Kitamura recommended is a plinth of crushed stoned which is highly compressed in a torsion box. I also run the belt on the same plane as the bearing point. I think no suspension is a key to the design as well. |
Dear Lewm: +++++ " Does anyone know what is so special about the big M-S turntables, apart from their obvious build quality, which can after all be matched by several of today's high end belt drive turntables? " +++++ IMHO there is nothing especial other than MS was one of the TT heavy weight BD design " pioneers " . I agree with your friend on " "good" but not mind-blowing " TT and IMHO several today TT's are better and more neutral than the MS. I had my first " encounter " with MS through an USA japanese audio items importer company named Japanese Stereo that was located in LA ( I think in Wildshire Blvd. ). The model I saw the first was the SX-8000-II and I was no less than " shocked ": beautiful machine when in those times I was playing with Technics SP10s and Denons DD TTs that against the MS looked like " baby's toys ". I never had the money to buy it even that Japanese Stereo had it very good prices. I can't remember the 8000 price but the RX-1500 full equiped ( vacuum plater and the like ) was for 1.3K. Btw, was through this distributor where I bought my SAECs/Audiocraft/Goldbug/Koetsu/Highphonic/etc, etc japanese tonearms, cartridges, mats, clamps and the like. Japanese designers trusted on heavy weight TTs, I think that the heaviest was the one from American Sound with a 50kg on the platter alone where the biggest MS has " only " 28kg. The Final Paruthenon named here weights 140kg and that from AS 170kg. Seems to me that these people were " crazy " about heavy weight and its influence on TT quality performance. I'm not with that heavy mass used to damp or taking away " resonances/vibrations " ( of course for speed inertia. ) and I think that even today several TT designers and persons that posted here does not find out yet where precisely reside or which is main factor/ characteristic for a neutral TT: heavy mass can't do it, at least is what several TTs shows and showed till today. +++++ " The motor assembly seems quite large but probably in part due to the incorporation of an elecronic drive system. " +++++ the motor it self was build by a Matushita group company and the TT controls design inside are not first rate, the weight seems to me need it to compensate for the heavy TT platter. Some today TTs comes with a stand alone motor and separate TT control/electronics. I can tell you that for almost any person that never been in direct " touch " ( other than readed about. ) with the MS ones and bought it IMHO his first impression will be as mine: WOW WOW and certainly that that WoW will translate on a non-true WoW " feeling " about its quality performance level. After the time people learn about and then put these mahines where it belongs against other TTs. Well there are persons either that never learn. I for good left the MS audio " stage/step " behind and follow " the road " in front/forward: the life is short. As always only an opinion. Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Raul, In the case of the high mass Final Audio that I have, I think the key attributes are speed stability. Most suspended table/rubber belts have wow and pitch problems on piano in my experience. I note that many of the high mass designs produced today do not have great power supplies - 20kg platters driven by motors/supplies that look like they couldn't spin a cornflake. As an example of the importance of power supply a friend has a Rega P9 - its key strength compared to the priced competition is timing. Interestingly many years ago when I got my first MIT Reference interconnect there was a bigger improvement using it in the power supply of the Final Lab turntable rather than between pre/power. ( FAR power supply has ac sine wave generator and power amp driving the motor ). |
Dear Thuchan: Agree, I'm not an expert on MS I'm only a music lover and an always learning and in " movement " audiophile. Are you a MS expert?, yes? : well, what makes do you " convert " in a MS expert against a " rockie " like me? what do you mean with a " well installed 5000/8000? are you suggesting that mine was not " well installed "? why is that?, please explain me I appreciate your advice seriously. As you know I'm always ready to learn and improve.Thank you in advance. Btw, could be /is there any " tiny " possibility that things are the other way around and you did not learn yet enough on the MS whole subject?. I understand you like the easy to mount a tonearm through the MS units but for example in the Acoustic Signature TTs is in different way similar easy but this TT characteristic has nothing to say when we are talking of neutrality and quality performance level or maybe you think that the flywheel makes the difference. I don't know that's why your advise is mandatory. Anyway, waiting for your learning ( and I mean it. ) answers as other MS owners I think are waiting too. Many of us participate in this forum to share our audio/music experiences and learn from other people audio/music experiences. Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Dover: Yes, high mass help to speed stability especialy on BD designs and you are totally right: power supply makes a difference and the MS ones are not great ones, I have to modified my unit and improved but my take is the same with the MS TTs. I never had the opportunity to heard your Final TT but that " sine wave generator " for those old times means a lot in that power supply design contrary to the MS ones. Today Acoustic Signature TTs works with similar power supply Final characteristic but this is 25 years after/latter!! my hat-off to Kitamura San. Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Raul - thanks for feedback. The Final was built in the 70's and early 80's - which means Kitamura was using ac sine wave generator power supply 35 years ago - and yet we are barely seeing this today. There seems to have been much colaboration in Japan in those days. I have also seen various Micro's heavily modified by Final Labs. The 2 versions of the Ginga turntable from Audio Note/Kondo also appears to be built by Final. |
Dear Dover: Just curios. I understand that Final marketed in Japan a phono cartridge ( I think with an integrated headshell and I think an expensive one. ) that was very well regarded as something truly special. Do you own this cartridge? was Kitamura its designer or that cartridge is a different " Final " manufacturer? I disturb you because there are not many ( only a few. ) Final products owners as you are so a first hand experience always is a learning one. Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Dertonarm: I never had on " hand " the Melco that I assume was the ones made it by Maki Engineering Laboratory Company. I don't know other that its heavy weight how could compare against the Final or other today top TTs. A Contest ( as you name it. ) with main heavy weight TT characteristic means IMHO almost nothing about quality performance level. Permit me to ask you: what is your " take " here? Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Raul, at least you are a music lover - not too bad :-). But seriously I have to apologize for running a business in "the real world" not aswering your post earlier. I saw you and many other MS owners behind you waiting for a lecture. I will dissapoint you. Maybe I am not a expert on Micro Seiki too. Nevertheless I have figured out what you can do with these well built machines and whoever is telling me he did not regard the big Micros as serious contenders - there are other fine table out of course - may need another approach to them. I am using rubber belts as well as threads. Who told you this funny story about my preferences. Hopefully not me :-) Listening is believing Raul. Come over here, and if you return keeping your opinion on the big Micros I will sell my equipment... deal? best & fun only - Thuchan |
Raul/Dertonarm, One other thing on the power supply on the Final - as well as having separate regulation for 33 & 45 it also has a "torque control". There is definitely an optimum point for sound. With regards to the string drive I cant try a rubber belt as the pulley has a very narrow slot for the string. However the speed is much more stable with surgical silk than others I have tried. The Top Class Audio site has a detailed view of the bearing components and structure of the current Final TT. Its almost identical to mine. The top Melco's would be interesting to hear. |
Raul, Forgot to mention - Final have always done complete bespoke systems. Their cartridge at the time was a rebadged Fidelity research - looks like an FR7. I have both an Ikeda Kiwame and a vintage Dynavector Nova 13D ( Ebony bodied version ) which is due for retipping. Currently using a back up cartridge - Shure V15 type V ( shocking to some I'm sure ). |
Dear Thuchan: Deal, but something that disturbing me a little is: what could you do with out your beloved great audio system? where your " life " goes? and after my opinion no one will be interested to buy it. No, I think is better that I be there with out given my MS opinion: don't you think?, our hobby is not only an important part of your and my life but a critical one. Btw, seriously for all of us: what if our each one audio system suddenly " disappear " and we can't any more enjoy music at home like today? how could affect you this hipothetic " fact "? do you already thinked? Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Hi Win, If you are still out there, did you mean to imply that belt creep does not occur with string drive (or with the use of other materials that presumably do not "stretch")? I thought Mark Kelly's analysis suggested that belt creep in a conventional belt drive tt, (where the motor is stationed at some distance from the platter and there is no re-routing of the belt by use of a capstan), is inevitable. I take no position pro or con, but what now puts me off of belt drive turntables is this variable that is left to each individual user of a bd turntable with an outboard motor: each user is responsible for the tension in the belt, which can even change from day to day due to vibration, etc. And belt tension would seem to be a major determinant of speed stability (due to belt creep, slippage, etc). So we try to fix that by using a gigantic and massive platter. It requires too much fiddling for me. I have a good friend who just acquired a very expensive belt drive and tonearm. He invited me over for a listen. He is using a record weight with a built in strobe, so as to allow constant monitoring of platter speed. The sound was excellent but the experience was maddening. Commanded by the drifting of the strobe light, my friend was up out of his seat adjusting the motor about every 2 minutes, in order to keep the damned strobe stable. Turned out he did have a problem with his 3-phase AC synchronous state of the art motor controller, but still... |
Hi Lewm, Belt creep is definitely an issue - rubber belts stretch, with string drive you need something that doesn't - cotton stretches badly, I have found surgical silk doesn't at all. My turntable speed never changes so I only check it once a year or so. The only times I've had to adjust it is when I have knocked the potentiometers on the sine wave generator when cleaning. |
Dear Dover: +++++ " My turntable speed never changes so I only check it once a year or so " ++++++ for a BD: WoW!, this speaks a lot of your overall TT design, build quality and excecution of the design. Not many BD TTs I know can share that statement and I know MS can't match it. I readed somewhere that you was an audio distributor/dealer ( right? ) and I would like to ask: when was that? and which " names " do you carry on?. Thank you. Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Dover, agreed. Surgical silk, bavarian sewing linen (no joke !), dyneema - there is a good selection of natural as well as artificial materials providing excellent string/thread for turntable use. The general idea behind planned/wanted/calculated slip in a drive working with high inertia is most tempting and - if carefully applied - works excellent and with outstanding sonic results (extreme authority, inner silence and superb micro dynamics). It is a nice example of using physic in a smart way and letting it do it's work. Cheers, D. |
Dear friends, To my 15 years involving experience with my (24kgr platter) Symphonic Line RG6, I can add that never I've had to re-align the speed also, but what happens to the MOMENT CHANGES in speed due to stylus friction, is another thing of a great concern. This Shutherland laser equiped clamp can not evaluate this, but you can hear it happens during playing, as like the LP is warped or the spindle hole is off centered. Auditioning the same LP with my DP80 then, and TD124 II now, I can not detect this momentary speed instability. I've lost my faith & I'm trying to get rid this TT as I could'nt find a solution for 15 years of changing strings, bearing oils, PSU inner parts, platter mats, bases e.t.c Now, please don't get me wrong. I don't want to provoke against the BD approach, but it seems that the point of real concern is not the speed change over a period of a year. Thank you. |
Dear Geoch: Agree, speed stability in the " short time " is the main problem/target/issue for TTs and what we choose on it. DD makes " things " really well on that subject. You DP-80 is a good example, I can't talk on the Thorens one because I never heard it in my system but I take your opinion as " mine ". Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Raul, My mistake to expose such a dangerous post here. I think Dover explains this precisely at his 05-04-11 reply. Please lets pretend that the case has closed by that post, as there is not much to be said further about and we should stop walking in this mine field. Too many of us have invested great deal of money having great expectations and no more than perhaps a handfull of us can realise and accept the fact. I apologise and I wish to stop this discussion here. I'm sorry. |
My Kuzma Stabi Ref. has 2 motors driving the sub-platter with an single belt. I check the speed with the Clearaudio Stroboscopic record with the stylus on the record. I am not able to see any speed variation. The platter is 8 kgr. I have difficulty to grasp how, say, 2 gr. stylus pressure can influence the inertia of the platter. The belt creep I can emagine by the start of the TT but not as caused by the stylus pressure when the platter is 'on speed'. Some data about forces involved? |
Dear Nandric: IMHO only an audio myth ( I mean with heavy mass TT designs. ): not proved theory. I tested ( posted somewhere at least twice. ) that myth not with one cartridge running but with three cartridges running at the same time with no speed minute changes in different recordings and at different position in the Lps: near the spindle, outer tracks and in the middle. Even, now that I remember, I made other tests where I changed the cartridge VTF using it at maximum ( on its specs. ), I run too a test with the motor switch-off and even with the platter with out " belt/thread " to test its time to stop. I really made several tests, for different reasons, and the cartridge drag when in playback did not showed influence. Where I detected influence was with out motor/belt and even differences ( tiny tiny very tiny ) due to a diffrent cartridge stylus shape and VTF. Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Raul, Use to import Martin Logan/Apogee/Conterpoint/Conrad Johnson/Krell/MIT/Kimber/Quicksilver/Sota/Sumiko/Pink Triangle/Proac/Carnegie/Zeta/Alphason/SME and shop was agent for Linn/Roksan/Harbeth/Onix/Musical Fidelity/Townsend plus probably forgotten a few - about 20 odd years ago. Pre digital hence fairly extensive experience on the turntables from that age. Plus heaps of oddball imports for customers such as VTL, Jadis,Dynaudio etc. Biggest learning from shop - synergy in system particularly analogue is vital and everyone hears differently. |
Dear Dover and Raul, Dover wrote, " My turntable speed never changes so I only check it once a year or so " I am happy to hear that, but the statement is not relevant to the issue of "belt creep" and does not necessarily mean that there is no variation in platter speed at the micro level. However, if you love the sound of your tt, that's all that counts. Pay close attention to piano reproduction. The capacity of a bd turntable to accurately convey the sound of a decaying note struck on a piano is for me a measure of its goodness. Pitch should be unwavering until the note dies below the audible level. |
Lewm - Please define belt creep. I have no slip and no stretch in the belt. I listen to heaps of classical and piano and in my previous posts I have mentioned that piano music often often lays bare wow and speed instability in turntables which is precisely why I dont do suspended decks, rubber or other stretchy belts and direct drive. But what do you actually mean by belt creep. |
My belt & thread driven units (from two sides each) are controlled very precisely by VPI SDS steering control in conjunction with fly wheels. The R 80 motor is controlled by Dusch Multiconverter thus replacing the felt brake. You see I regard drives & speed control as very important for good analog sound. best & fun only - Thuchan |
Dear Nandric, the stylus drag is a (if small in "value") constant "brake". This loss of speed has to be taken into account. Devices like the Sutherland stroboscope do verify the existence of stylus drag. Simple cure: adjust speed WITH the stylus on the record (i.e. while stylus drag occurs). Cheers, D. |
Dear Chris, I thought about the 'tank' instead of the elephant because I already anticipated such comment. But in literary sense this made no sense to me. But I was not able to find some military equivalent for the mouse. This is the usual problem with methaphoric expressions because nobody can resist the chance to tease. However I deed mentioned that my speed check was with the stylus in the groove. I also asked for the data of the forces involved but this is somehow overlooked... |
Dear Dover, "direct drive"? You hear speed instability in a direct drive turntable? All of them or one or two samples? A truly vintage direct drive turntable that has not been serviced can manifest speed instability due to aging capacitors, but the technology is not in any way speed unstable per se. If you hear speed instability in a direct drive turntable or if speed is grossly unstable by observation of the typical built-in strobe, then the table is defective. I am not qualified really to hold forth on belt creep. Instead I can recommend that you go to Vinyl Asylum and do a search on that term. Then read the relevant posts by Mark Kelly. Belt creep is not incurable, by the way, as Mark shows. But also take a look at the Artemis turntable, where the belt travels around a capstan so as to nearly fully encircle the platter, a la one remedy suggested by Mark and others. But really I did not mean to detract from your pleasure with your turntable or to infer that it cannot be fantastic just because of this theoretical issue. I apologize if you got that message. |
Dear Nandric, the VTF seems trivial but when you consider the very tiny area over which that downward force is distributed (the contact between LP and stylus tip), then the force per unit of area is very very large. This is not to say that I don't also have trouble with the concept. Nevertheless, all empiric and circumstantial evidence suggests it is a real phenomenon. |
Dear Lew, this is not my domain but if we can measure the forces involved (stylus in the groove) then we can design a platter with such inertia wich should cure the problem. My observation is that when the platter is on speed there is very litlle force needed to keep the platter in motion. I also observed that many TT's have platters at around 10 kgr. Not exactly Dertonarms idea about the needed weight but I somehow think that this is not accidental. Regards, |
Dear Nandric, there is a kind of "weight threshold" which in my experience divides the platters of turntables in the "men" and the "boys" - or the serious and the toys ...... sonic-wise. All really "good" turntables I have heard in my life (and I have heard most all) did feature a platter weight beyond 30 lbs. If one wants to use inertia and calculated slippage in turntable design, one will observe that it works better and better with increased weight (= usually more inertia). But besides that the higher mass has a lot of feedback resonance resistance ( by weight - and if clever designed by structural barriers). Weight in platter is never a mistake - if your drive can handle it/can work with it to the best. Cheers, D. |
Lewm, No offence at all, always looking to learn & too old to worry. DD's friends have or have had that I have heard many times are the Goldmund Studio ( with custom power supply ) ( 3 of them ) , Kenwood L07D ( 2 of those ), Technics SP10 mk3 ( 2 of these ). The standard L07 laid bare speed instablility in the goldmund. The SP10 Mk 3 is the best I've heard but there is a grain or "chopped up quality" to the sound that I correctly or incorrectly ascribe to DD - dont wish to start that debate up again - just relaying what I've heard. |
Oh yes, I forgot that old canard about hearing the servo at work. I guess some can hear something they don't like from certain direct drive turntables and choose to ascribe it to the servo. None of these devices is perfect. Then too, the early dd efforts might have been faulty in some cases even though working perfectly but due to design flaws. Certainly that might have been said of products lacking a quartz servo feedback mechanism. So I was naive to have inferred that dd tables as a class have flawless speed stability. Sorry for that exaggeration. I myself am not crazy about some of the dd tables that are much loved, like the low end Technics. I just love my L07D once I installed an EMI/RFI shield under the stainless steel platter mat. Otherwise it had a slightly dulled sound that one might have said was related to servo. The L07D actually has a very novel and modern approach to the use of the servo, relying to a great degree on platter inertia, a la Dertonearm, altho the platter's mass would not suit him. The coreless motor is a big plus for the L07D, IMO. I am just this week finally listening to my SP10 Mk3 in a massive slate and cherry/baltic birch plinth. It gives a very free and open musical sound once resonance is markedly reduced by the plinth plus a mass added to the bearing housing, a la Albert Porter's plinths. Best of all, no fiddling with drive belts. |
Watch the stylus drag in action on a 12 kg platter a few minutes into this video. What about minute variation with complex passages of music? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF2XieUlzvk&feature=youtube_gdata_player |
