If you ever had a chance to look into the motor design of a big Studer Tape machine or at the big EMTs you know what motor design could be at its best. This is how professionals do it. Maybe we are used to deal a little to much with the consumer audio works... |
As no one responded on this question I was wondering why? maybe there are not so many audio friends out there discussing about these machines. Could it be true? Am I searching in a too much specialized region? No, I couldn`t believe this is the real answer.
I decided to start building up my own opinion. I was lucky to discover a very rare EMT unit, an R80 of which only four units were built in this configuration in 1961.
Here is my conclusion:
Well, may I say that it is written so much nonsense about the EMTs, at least about the one I am able to compare with other TTs. My EMT - and I am not in the EMT church at all, look at all my Micros which I like very much- is such a musical instrument that you forget all that bullshit about inproper idler bass reproduction and studio imperfection.
Hey all you guys out there - go and listen to a proper installed EMT !!! make up your mind yourself and take off your sunglasses...
... will be continued |
Henry,
Mark Doehmann knows about TTs -this for sure. The Continuums are very sophisticated and well build machines too. I don't like the massive magnetic field of the Caliburn, also not the lookings of its stand. Nevetheless it is a proper way of isolation and damping.
All Continuums face a small problem with the original tonearm cabeling. You can change this very easy as you should do with the great old arms from SAEC or Micro Seiki as well.
Now let us have a short look on the investments you are facing going for a well preserved EMT 927 or a Caliburn resp. Criterion. You know that there is still a big difference although the value (!) of the EMTs is continously rising. I now know why.
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Soundlistening,
okay, maybe I forgot dreaming away myself a little :-) But seriously it is only my crest for listening to some units I heard so much about first hand in my own system and not as a visitor in a different environment. This may be good for a first impression. Not more!
When I did my journey to Australia nearly crossing the whole planet and finally succeeding in discovering the perfect matching Continuum it took me lots of preparatory work. Many friendly audiophiles joined me on this trip. The same happened with the EMT. First I had to cross the minds full of prejuduces, my own ones too.
There were not many good friends supporting me in my idea to go for a very rare but simple looking R80 - indeed it is not. This machine is fully packed with beautifully designed and perfectly produced technological details you will not find in other TTs - except of the 927s. The R80 is a kind of 927 but without internal phono stage - just great for my usuages.
But maybe I am telling stories everyone knows. in the end I was really surprised how musically the "927" plays. the sound is not studio like as some people in it's bad meaning think it is. The new EMT carts are just gorgeous. I really feel sorrow for those audiohile friends who never went into a good experience with the "Tondosen". |
Soundlistening,
okay, maybe I forgot dreaming away myself a little :-) But seriously it is only my crest for listening to some units I heard so much about first hand in my own system and not as a visitor in a different environment. This may be good for a first impression. Not more!
When I did my journey to Australia nearly crossing the whole planet and finally succeeding in discovering the perfect matching Continuum it took me lots of preparatory work. Many friendly audiophiles joined me on this trip. The same happened with the EMT. First I had to cross the minds full of prejudices, my own ones too.
There were not many good friends supporting me in my idea to go for a very rare but simple looking R80 - indeed it is not. This machine is fully packed with beautifully designed and perfectly produced technological details you will not find in other TTs - except of the 927s. The R80 is a kind of 927 but without internal phono stage - just great for my usuages.
But maybe I am telling stories everyone knows. in the end I was really surprised how musically the "927" plays. the sound is not studio like as some people in it's bad meaning think it is. The new EMT carts are just gorgeous. I really feel sorrow for those audiohile friends who never went into a good experience with the "Tondosen". |
Dear Bob,
this is the very good question I will answer when I am back from Vietnam, also being able comparing the sound between the Micro 8000 s and the EMT R 80 by using the same carts and tube phono stages on nearly the same level. I will audition with my new 4 way horns and the two matching subs.
BTW i do know two guys who are owning a Micro 8000 and an EMT 927. I am interested to hear an opinion from them and everyone else who does a comparison in the meantime.
Servicing EMTs is always done by former EMT stuff. As EMT had their own sales organization also distributing STUDER machines there should be some guys out there in North America doing this. I will ask some senior EMT people in Germany. |
Soundlistening,
one of the secrets of the 927 lies in its higher platter mass. In this respect I think people are right when saying that a higher platter mass is crucial for a good TT.
of course we disagree! why not. I need to show you how excellent a R80 plays without EMT phono stage. You will not believe it.
Did you try an external Kondo phono stage with your 927? The 927 seems harmonizing not so easy with external phono stages as the R80 does. Â |
Dear Nandric,
many thanks, do you see the TD 2002 "flying" due to its embedment into acryl? some people say I am a very slim person but I have to find those people... nevertheless you cannot easily identify the free zones on this image because it was shot from 8 meters distance. You are able operating all units by walking around even from behind the system. |
Soundlistening,
I am very thankful for the good advices on EMTs I received from you.
IÂ am wondering why people have written a lot of nonsense which led to an image that Studio EMTs are non musical machines just being used to transport a quick & dirty signal into the air.
These guys of today do not know anything about the Radio Stations and the Studio Work of the 60ies and 70ies managed by people who loved their work and were addicted to quality.
I am often confronted with the opinion that those vintage studio tables are not designed for home audio users and do provide features which no one needs today. This is nonsense again and I could discuss it in detail. Of course some of the features did support fast access and easy adjustments, the latter maybe a no nonsense invention.
Heiner Jacobi writes in Sound Practices, Issue 16: the 930 sounds similiar to the 927 but with less authority and more speed. It is the question of whether you prefer to drive a top  Mercedes or a top BMW! - A Garrard 301 is a good  Austin Minicooper.
Maybe this funny comparison hits the mark a little. |
Dear Channel10, this hobby is all about learning, experimenting and assessing. If I meet guys addicted to a certain church and looking for new church members I am always suspicious. It might feel well being welcomed in an audio church as it does in a therapeutic group. My target is always keeping independent from the so called gurus or any misguided influence. In reality it is sometimes hard to detect what is going on.
Nevertheless I do count neither you nor Soundlistening as a guru but a well informed (by your own experience) audio enthusiast & expert, maybe also on special fields. The discussions with you - and we do it since three years - was and is a very fruitful one. Having said that I still have to be convinced by my own ears that the 139st will beat some of my separate phono stages. Therefore I am looking forward to the big experiment we will do in May. |
Dear Baranyi,
the question is how much would you like to spend .
in Japan you might follow Yahoo and you see it is in between a range of 35-60T$, depending whether it is fully equipped 927 with a phono stage, tube, mono, stereo, Ortofon arm, EMT arm etc.
As Channel10 mentioned the value is continously rising. So if you intend to keep the value you do the right thing. |
Hi Bourse,
thanks a lot. This is a very valuable assessment, also extending to the Technics SP10 MKIII and the results which I would underline as well, having tested a MK II in my set-up (not a MK III yet).
I will be ready for my final assessment at around 20th of March.
is it possible to watch your set up somewhere? |
your intuition is pretty good Bourse. We are not so far away in Europe. Currently I am exploring remote islands in the South China Sea. When I am back and did survive I will check my e-mail lists.
So we are both building up horn systems, I decided to go for TAD Berryllium drivers. A very well known German technology advisor supports me in this challenge to match better with my nearly completly tube based system.
I guess 1000 km west means at the sea side? not a bad location at all.
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Jonathan, I thought so too before I went into this experience. I also could not imagine that the old Studio idlers and these old Ortofon tonarms may be able to produce more than a very poor vintage sound.
you need listening to a R 80 or 927 which has been revised by a real EMT expert. The inner tonearm litz needs to be cleaned carefully, the contacts should be soldered newly, the pins need to be cleaned and the wire is to be soldered directly - without connectors in the tonearm socket - to the external cinch terminal or to the phono stage. This is only about the tonearm.
I would not compare a fully revised 927 with a 950. You are right the price is pretty high but we should keep in mind that there is no differerence to the cost for the Studios in the 60ies and 70ies. The value is still the same. Of which modern turntable you can say this? |
Blue_Nose, thanks for your input as well as from Ipp, Vinyljh and Jonathan.
some of my gear may look expensive but somehow I was able to pick it up for very modest prices, even the Continuum Criterion ( its not a Caliburn, I would not have gone for it and do describe the reasons in the Caliburn thread).
My biggest bargain was the Micro SX 8000 II which I was able to buy when I returned from Tokyo under 10.000 some 15 years ago. But I do not wanna express how good I am in buying, I also bought some things for
too much regarding the value they have now. As I did own some TTs and tonearms in the last years listening to the gear in my own system I do sell them from time to time. Dertonearm does support my efforts.
Why do I mention this? I think the fascination in this hobby is listening to audio items in your own environment. There are many good tables out there. The discussion about the different drives is very funny, I have some
experience with all of them. When it comes to the idler drive there are some audio friends who will never accept a table of this kind. What a
mistake!
If an idler concept is well implemented, you see it also with the
Anastase,and also well serviced it is more than just transporting deep frequencies.
The Criterion built up to the extension as I did is a very good example how excellent TTs can be designed and produced even today. The superior sound quality of a 50 year old R 80 might be a big suprise to
many among us but not for the guys who are already owning a well serviced 927. I fullly understand Vinyljh that he will never depart from his EMT. The 950 is a very good car but for having fun you better use your convertible in the garage... |
i forgot to answer Blue_Nose on the horn question. No, not from Cessario. I am building my own 4 way Horn system including two additional & exceptional Subs. Two guys are supporting me, a very well known German technology advisor in High-End Audio and a splendid carpenter. We will use TAD berrylium drivers for some of the installations. Launching date is end of March. |
Hi Geoch, I see you have quite an experience with TTs and idlers as well. You are completely right when you are indicating listening to fine music is possible without owning special top notch gear. If you are carefully selecting and maybe modifying some fine pieces of audio gear you are on the safe side. It is only about a few additional improvements which I rate as of some importance for me, nevertheless it is also fun investigating and playing with such units, not counting the adventurous crest searching in the lost market for such a TT if you decided going for one.
I do remember when I imported my well preserved old Nakamichi 1000 which spent its life in Hawai finding its way via the States to me. Having arrived at me I had to look for a solution on an electrical part only one guy in Germany could repair. I had to travel with the Naka from Munich to the North Sea crossing the full length of Germany.
Your point on service hits the mark. Nevertheless Studer, EMT or MS products are build for eternity. I never had a problem with my Micros. Luckily around me are some wise men having worked for Studer, EMT etc. trying to continue the tradition of these quality addicted philosophy. When it comes to servicing I may count on them.
Having Fun? Yes I do!
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I am sorry, yes I meant the 8000. The sea breeze must have some impact on my registers... Indeed the 8000 is the only SAEC which comes as a straight 13" design with the angle provided by the special headshell. I have two headshells of this kind and they are not very easy to get in the used markets. The 8000 in a very good condition is hard to get as well. I tried to find one in Japan but at that time I was not successful. Be prepared to pay a really high price for this rare item.
The 506/30 you may get easier and rewired it is on a pair with the FR-66s. Geoch if you are considering exchanging your 308SX go for a 506/30. You will face no problems with geometry at all.
T_Bone no problems at all with changing the subject a little. When I return I will report about my assessment regarding the difference between
the two TTs.
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Hi Geoch, how do you like your SAEC arm? I am an aficinado of the SAEC arms. I changed the inner wirings into silver litz leading the wire directly to the SUT - what a great sound these arms are able to transport! |
T-Bone, Je suis d'accord pour tout! With my Continuum arms I did the rewiring by myself. But this is somehow easy. With my SAECs (506/30 and 1000), EA-10 and the MS 282 Dertonarm supported me. He is a real expert on doing this. We are using Ikeda silver litz. |
Oh my god, T_Bone I am sitting in the lounge at Saigon International Airport. all the Japanese people over here stranded. Hey I recall you are somewhere in Sendai province. Good to hear you are safe. Know how earthquakes feel in Tokyo. all the best. eckart |
Bourse, I am inspired for my Horn design not by the guys your are mentioning. Especially the crossover will be something very very special. I have tested the TAD drivers against others, we do some small modifications too. I will use two additional Subs which can be very powerful and do match the design. They are carrying French drivers. will report about my experiences on my page.
we always believe we are living in a non global world, at least some people in Europe who are looking to get their freedom in small protected retreats in the hills or at the sea side not really caring about the rest of the world. We are definitely not. Japan is not that far as many think, - when it comes to a nuclear desaster, we all hope it will not happen, we might be all affected. |
Syntax, you need to hear a well redefined 927 or R80 with an old Ortofon arm. As I do know your musical preferences you will change your opinion I am pretty sure. |
this is a very good manual Soundlistening and it will me guiding in the next two weeks building up the horn system in my room. I am pretty sure it will change everything and it already did - because at the moment I am not able listening to my EMT.
fixing the cross-over points will be a never ending story I guess, hopefully not. It is my first experience into that kind of "tuning" and I am thankful to have some experienced friends at hand... |
Dear Nandric, I have a 4 way horn system. I will use some additional subs which I can use for Stereo support as well as for 7.1 surround. The TAD drivers are TD-4001, TD-2002 and Exclusive ET-703. The horn is a very special construction I will show when the system is completely built up - approx. end of next week.
You are right a 4way is absolutely adequate. Just for fun I have added the small amounts I have paid for the drivers only - then the other material, the work and did mulitly by 6 -which is the usual sales price of speakers- Unbelievable! |
Audpulse, I got a copy of a letter which was written to the TAS magazine stating that Vinyl is not benchmark, tubes are too noisy as records are BTW too and the only good signal you get from downloading. Hoorah - this is the new god we are dancing around - but not with me! |
here is some noise. I made it finally, took me 6 months: the Bavarian Voice has seen it`s light... |
Dear all, I promised to report about my testing between the Micro and the EMT when I had finally implemented my horn system. Now having used the EMT JPA 66 as the phono pre for both tables, going directly to the WAVAC amps - no other circuits in betweeen- I had a pretty good bases for a comparison. Of course due to the arms (Ortofon RMA 309 vs FR 66s) I have a built in difference also if I use the same cartdrige - an EMT JSD 6 (Jubilee anniversary edition, MC, around 2500 Dollar) on both arms thanks to an EMT/ SME adaptor on the FR-66s. I also tried a vintage Ortofon MC from the 50ies on both arms using an Ortofon adaptor on the FR-66s.
The Micro 8000 shows a clearer, more open soundstage, mid range and hights are transported in an excellent way. It is the ultimate reproducing
machine for RIAA and RIAA+ records. The EMT R80 on the other hand is the more musical machine especially with pre 1957 stereo and mono cuts. I usally fell easily in a relaxing mood enjoying the EMT all solution.
So which is the better table? Hard to say. On the Micro you may run three
or four different arms, on the EMT you are able to change carts easily
-especially the wonderful new EMT-Studiotechnik carts. Changing from the Ortofon arm with its old internal cabelling to an EMT 997 tonearm might change the results again. Or maybe going for a new Ikeda silver wiring in the Ortofon arm. Don't know at the moment. At least you may get happy with one of the two tables - this for sure.
I was planning to leave the EMT R80 with the EMT JPA66 phono stage (pre amp). I finally ended up using the Micro 8000 with the JPA66. This is
a great combination with lots of possibilities on reproducing fine records. |
Radicalsteve, I see you are also looking for the best possible solutions. Yes indeed I also went into the idler story when owning a Garrard 501 TR which is a fine piece of turntable building. In the end I was attracted only for a short time maybe because I had the chance to compare at home.
There are not many well preserved & maintained great idlers out there. Most of them, also the rebuild ones (in and without a new plinth) convince at a first glance.
The big Micros are a class of its own. I doubt that there are many new TTs which can rival the Micro Seikis. It was Japanese Machine Building at
its best. The big EMTs are a serious contender. Especially when connected with good silver cables.
best & fun only - Thuchan |
Louis - you are right, but I had a very special base, especially designed by the German branch of Loricraft. And it sounded well, yes no doubt. But I also believe that Panzerholz or slate might be more appropriate.
I just did an experiment with a Technics SP 10 MK II and a nice but not very very special wooden plinth. It is a good sounding machine, nevertheless not exactely reaching my demands. Maybe it is different with a MK III in a plinth of Albert or Dobbins. But the prices for a good combo are getting insane regarding how much this Pro-series went in earlier times. Don`t you think so?
Thanks for your compliments. I am pretty happy now having had the courage to start my loudspeaker project. The result is just overwhelming. I now have the right partners for my WAVACs. What a difference to the Wilsons.
Best & Fun Only - Thuchan |
Thanks Logenn & Isochronism,
just remember it all started with one turntable, a Micro Seiki SX 8000 II. some 16 years ago, with one tonearm - a Max 237. And of course in a small room. When I put the volume up my wife (as maybe the most of our partners) claimed she liked my music but not in her room...
So the idea started to go deeper and deeper... and finally ended up in my own listening room assembling some humble music reproduction instruments. Now I am comparing the Micros with the EMT and every evening I do explore some more insights.
best & fun only - Thuchan |
Someone told me in the US EMT products are not very well known and not marketed very well. Is that true? Of course the turntables are not build anymore but carts, phono stages etc. are still being produced and sold.
best & fun only - Thuchan |
Regarding cables using with the EMT R80 I started to run it with professionell Balanced Cables which is quite good. Nevertheless small improvements are possible if one is using a special silver cable between the phono pre and the pre - even over 5 meters.
best & fun only - Thuchan |
Logenn, you're right. It' s about the audio magazines which are not focused on vintage items, maybe with the exception of Sterophile's Art Dudley but even not Mike Fremer. They not necessarily need to test vintage equipment but could refer to it's sonic quality, especially with turntables, tonearms and carts. This is unfortunately missing but...
maybe it's time to start a vintage magazine, or is there one?
best & fun only - Thuchan |
In_Shore and Logenn, you are both right - and Audiogon is a good place to exchange ideas. Maybe when I retire which is a good 10 years or more ahead I will start a Vintage Online platform. We should provide free access but also keep a golden club corner - for the most vintage looking guys among us :-)
Best & Fun Only |
Dear all,
Golden Club member of the month - sure, we will reserve a special corner... The Micro 8000 seems to be a bit superior due to it's many advantages regarding the usage of different arms and modern cartridges.
On the EMT 927 you may use an EMT 997 ( vintage vesion, maybe best with an EMT JSD 6 cart) or an vintage Stereo Ortofon tonearm.
As the "Tondosen" are already on the market since 45 years - of course with improvements in the last years - it is still difficult to mount a modern low impedance but heavy cart on the Ortofon RMA 309 for instance. At the weekend I succeded soldering a A-90 cart into an EMT J-shell with the square EMT-connection. Maybe I am the first trying this. The result is very promising and shows that the EMT table is a grand champion. I played a very good pressing of "Rumours" and found it is worth "Going Your Own Way" . The sound is deeper, stronger and really more powerful than with the more on the musical side playing TSD's. BTW the 45 rpm Rumours repressing of 2009 is a bit more on the bright side.
Hans in the Netherland is doing a real good job, also providing vintage parts for the EMT connoisseur.
Best & Fun Only - Thuchan |
You may also get some ideas on the big Micros from the thread:
Micro SX-8000 II or SZ-1
best & fun only - Thuchan |
Dear Raul,
you are not an expert on Micro Seiki I conclude from your statements and it seems to me you never listened to a well installed Micro Seiki 5000 or 8000 in a good system - what a pitty. You really missed something.
best & fun only -Thuchan |
Dear Raul,
at least you are a music lover - not too bad :-). But seriously I have to apologize for running a business in "the real world" not aswering your post earlier. I saw you and many other MS owners behind you waiting for a lecture. I will dissapoint you.
Maybe I am not a expert on Micro Seiki too. Nevertheless I have figured out what you can do with these well built machines and whoever is telling me he did not regard the big Micros as serious contenders - there are other fine table out of course - may need another approach to them.
I am using rubber belts as well as threads. Who told you this funny story about my preferences. Hopefully not me :-)
Listening is believing Raul. Come over here, and if you return keeping your opinion on the big Micros I will sell my equipment...
deal?
best & fun only - Thuchan |
My belt & thread driven units (from two sides each) are controlled very precisely by VPI SDS steering control in conjunction with fly wheels. The R 80 motor is controlled by Dusch Multiconverter thus replacing the felt brake. You see I regard drives & speed control as very important for good analog sound.
best & fun only - Thuchan |
Dear In_shore,
you are right, I had enough time to study and experience with the EMT table.
Maybe I have to explain that this R80 machine has no inbuilt EMT phono stage. The tonearm litz goes to a docking and is connected to the Zanden phono, from there via ARC 40 Anni to the WAVACs.
In the beginning the sound was already very musical using EMT Tondosen. When I mounted an A-90 into an EMT j-shell and also changed the line cable to Audioquest Cheetah the sound improved by getting a little wider, with a more open soundstage and getting more powerful. This EMT idler is able to reproduce vinyl in a way one really dreams of - and I am usually known as a not too enthusiastic guy.
Either you use EMT Tondosen or modern MCs the sound is just great and inspiring. I would miss this table if someone convinces me to take it out of my room. I am now considering mounting a NOS EMT 997 tonearm as well. For me an EMT 927 is a real giant among the vintage turntables.
best & fun only -Thuchan |
Dear all,
I have mounted a second arm on my EMT table. It is an NOS EMT 997 "Banana" tonearm. As there is a 927 design carrying two arms my R 80 is prepared for only one. Therefore I had to mount an aluminium platform for taking up a Micro Seiki armboard carrying the 997.
Using my UNI-switch I am now able to change from one to the other arm.
This desicion supports using heavier carts while the light carts such as EMT Tondosen are used in the Ortofon arm.
There is an ongoing discussion which of the two tonearms, EMT 997 or Ortofon RMA 297, is the superior one? I will perform a test series to find out for myself.
best & fun only - Thuchan |
Xupakabras,
you're right. Micro Seiki was a real serious turntable builder, as it was EMT too. Most people who are playing with modern small concepts will not understand why these machines were far ahead the competition at those times, and maybe still are. When you look at today's market you see many copies of the fantastic MS-concept of using up to four arms with one TT.
Regarding build quality you will not find many comparable designs. Continuum is one I would like to mention but they are very expensive and their sales strategy will not support their success at the time being.
Enjoy your system which is fine - and ahem, maybe you go for an EMT in "your next musical life".
best & fun only |
