EMT 927 vs. Micro Seiki 5000 or 8000 - different?

Dear T_bone, dear Geoch, first - great to hear you are o.k. Travis. A dreadful and really very sad catastrophe. Showing us once again how dwarf we really are....
T_bone is right - the WE-8000 is the only SAEC tonearm where the offset of the headshell is correct.
The SAEC 506/30 was designed to be used with 10" and singles only. It's geometry does reflect it.
Out of curiosity I have calculated a different alignment for the 506/30 which does suit 12" records MUCH better ( T_bone it is included in your UNI-Pro set for free !!).
Cheers,
D.

Dear Bourse,

..but all roads lead to 5 way horns. :)..

- IMHO neither a priori nor in ultimo ratio.
Of course it is tempting to address each frequency band with an ideal (on first sight ...) suited driver, but it is always the "team" which produces the results.
Every 4+ way horn (or any other driver principle) system I have heard and seen so far (and it were many ...) - regardless the price tag - produced more problems than it solved.
One is easily tempted to address the requirements of a top class horn system with an overextended material battle.
It is a common yet often overlooked trap.
The "lucky" owners weren't aware of it most of the time, but each x-over point less is certainly an asset to the performance.
And the computer x-overs available today are no real cure either.
There are way enough great horn drivers out there - be it pro audio or "elusive" ( applying to the price tag mainly ...) audiophile drivers - which do cover a large band perfectly (if enough attention to detail is applied (terminals, inner wire, bug nets etc.)).
The day I see a 5 way horn system where all other aspects of performance are already addressed and the 4th and 5th way still are really a logical consequence has not yet seen light.
Cheers,
D.

Sounds a bit like back in 1982 when the introduction of the CD was hailed as the perfect sound forever ......
Time went by.
As always.
BTW - did anybody ever noticed, that life itself is full of "noise" and artificial by-products, which most of the time somehow fail to add to the enjoyment ?
Cheers,
D.

Dear Nandric, indeed - essential in our modern times and as such a result of evolution and the need to evolve to survive. An bengal phrase says that it is only the most quiet moments that one can hear a divine voice. As there are no more truly quiet moments in our days none such voice can find an ear.
Cheers,
D.

Dear Mosin, dear Lewm, dear In_shore, while I myself are quite an admirer of the Micro Seiki skeleton turntables (RX-1500 g-versions, RX-3000, RX-5000 and SX-8000 in particular), I nevertheless understand the initial "cold welcome" it received from HP and others back in the early 1980ies in the US.
Many reviewers back then favored the LP12 and an unsuspended MS with an untreated platter is certainly sound-wise not to everybody's liking (it is not to mine ...).
The bell-shape of the Micro Seiki's platter (each of the above safe for the SX-8000 w/stainless steel platter and glued glass platter underneath for the air bearing) is certainly not the best possible. Have a look at the photos of Syntax' RX-5000 to get an impression what I mean. A RX-5000 with solid platter on top of it's stock platter is a completely different beast and gives a shocking improve to the MS's sound performance.
What is needed further to really explore the possibilities of the Micro Seiki is a good suspension.
Use a Vibraplane (Kinetic Systems) or Minus-K with additional load and you will explore an all new sonic experience with the Micro Seiki.
Micro Seiki itself realized it late in it's history and the SX-8000 II came with a floating pad (at least an attempt in the right direction).
As it stands, a stock RX-1500G, RX-3000, RX-5000 or SX-8000 is a turntable with incredibly built quality and some real smart ideas topped with a time-less form-follows-function design.
To really show off it's sonic possibilities however a few points (suspension, platter) need to be addressed carefully.
In stock condition it is sonically only 60% of what is possible.
Cheers,
D.
P.S. to put the principle of inertia w/ string/thread drive to perfect function is another topic. It works - and when it does it is really stunning. But it is too often misunderstood and not applied correctly.

Dead Dover, Not to forget the Melco turntables in this Contest.
Cheers,
D.

Dear Dover, agreed. Surgical silk, bavarian sewing linen (no joke !), dyneema - there is a good selection of natural as well as artificial materials providing excellent string/thread for turntable use. The general idea behind planned/wanted/calculated slip in a drive working with high inertia is most tempting and - if carefully applied - works excellent and with outstanding sonic results (extreme authority, inner silence and superb micro dynamics).
It is a nice example of using physic in a smart way and letting it do it's work.
Cheers,
D.

Dear Nandric, the stylus drag is a (if small in "value") constant "brake". This loss of speed has to be taken into account. Devices like the Sutherland stroboscope do verify the existence of stylus drag. Simple cure: adjust speed WITH the stylus on the record (i.e. while stylus drag occurs).
Cheers,
D.

Dear Nandric, there is a kind of "weight threshold" which in my experience divides the platters of turntables in the "men" and the "boys" - or the serious and the toys ...... sonic-wise.
All really "good" turntables I have heard in my life (and I have heard most all) did feature a platter weight beyond 30 lbs.
If one wants to use inertia and calculated slippage in turntable design, one will observe that it works better and better with increased weight (= usually more inertia). But besides that the higher mass has a lot of feedback resonance resistance ( by weight - and if clever designed by structural barriers).
Weight in platter is never a mistake - if your drive can handle it/can work with it to the best.
Cheers,
D.

Dear Jaspert, excellent - a few minutes video do clarify the point.
Cheers,
D.

Dear Nandric, stylus drag is a resulting force related to VTF.
The actual "value" of the force in question does vary because of VTF, stylus shape, alignment, record "grip", record weight etc. - IMHO the more important point is how to tame the beast.
The Sutherland video does not take into account, that the LP itself might (does...) "slip" on the platter's surface due to the friction of the stylus. The Sutherland itself is not heavy enough to prevent that. A LP clamped down with considerable force ( by means of a Sota Reflexclamp or other similar screw action clamps which really press the record firmly to the platter ) does it still show stylus drag? Not on a servo controlled DD (Technics, Denon, Sony et al) and not on a Micro SX-8000 with a spinning 40 lbs+ platter and high inertia.
On many tt's out there, the platter doesn't work (sonically ...) the way it could, because platter and record aren't actually spinning "in line".
Cheers,
D.