I don't really want to take a hammer to my beloved ET II! Harry, its takes more than a hammer to destroy the ET 2. 8^0 @Frogman "unseasonably warm" yes........ until today ! we went from 17 c (60 f) to -5 c (23 f) overnight. where else do get swings like that in temps ? I can't believe I was getting visions of doing gelcoat repair on one of the boats :^( Good to hear from you Frogman :^) Ah yes, the ole ......pour some rubbing alcohol down the air tube like a scientist........turn the pump on ........and listen to the fluid come out of the manifold pores onto the spindle. Extra cool when you manually move the spindle in and out as you do this. Quite a satisfying slurping sucking sound ....no ? And all those mineral deposits in the manifold get dislodged, moved, and deposited where exactly ? |
I think I'll try my thumb first. I've never tried pouring alcohol down the tube and firing up the pump for the very reasons you describe.
BTW I live in very rural Western North Carolina. Earlier this week I woke up to 24 deg. F and the day topped out at 75 F.
I'm running a Lyra Delos on the ET with original arm wand. Any opinions on whether I'd hear an improvement with the magnesium or carbon fiber wand? |
here is a direct link to that manifold pic and it shows the correct cleaning procedure that Frogman mentioned earlier, as a well as another pic grabbed from the internet showing the manifold parts. https://goo.gl/photos/J7XD4gevCJrRN5CD8Note the set screws in the manifold. The screws are set differently for different PSI settings. One can see if you send isopropanol down the airline, this manifold surface and the set screws is what the fluid comes into contact with. What can’t be seen is the inside of the black manifold housing.The inside of it should be scrubbed out too. Harry - my no.1 passion is running. My wife asks me where I am running to and I can’t answer. I guess this make me a running fool. Anyway...because of the running I think; I am very biased about air quality...and I believe that it is this mindset, that set me on my I will call it "abnormal" pump journeys, with the ET 2.0- 2.5. The air compressor I am using the Timeter, builds pressure heats up the air, condenses it, drains the moisture down a tube (like your car’s ac system ) into a tray, then sends it down the main air line to my ET 2.5. I have never seen a drop in the regulator bowl next to the turntable. Well... one time when the tube in the Timeter pump got plugged with mineral deposits. Its design means moisture and and particulate traps are not required. **************** I’m running a Lyra Delos on the ET with original arm wand.
Any opinions on whether I’d hear an improvement with the magnesium or carbon fiber wand? http://www.needledoctor.com/Lyra-Delos-Phono-CartridgeThe Lyra Delos is Compliance : Approx. 12 x 10 cm/dyne at 100Hz I would run that cart with a CF or Mag armwand and the double leaf spring. As you know the ET2 first came out with its original aluminum arm wand, when high compliance MM’s were really popular. I am using in my second room the original aluminum wand with the high compliance Acutex 420str and single leaf spring. The Acutex is 36 x 10-6 cm./dyne at 100 Hz. |
Chris and Frogman. Your tips are very much appreciated. When I work up enough bravery I'll pull the manifold and scrub it clean. I had read Chris' earlier posts on the Timeter and was quite intrigued, however, my house won't allow me to get it far enough away not to hear the noise.
I am going to keep my eyes open for a mag or CF wand. They are kind of expensive new.
Thanks again for your time and advice. |
Yeah, the pump runs if I remember at 68 db if you hold an spl meter 5 feet from it. It needs its own room. Like my music :^)
Harry - one more thought.
Are you using one single naked leaf spring on your I Beam ? Naked meaning there is no damping material attached to it. This set up works well with high compliance carts and also bad out of center records; provides damping. Your Lyra is not high compliance and would benefit from less damping. I believe things will tighten up and come more alive.
If you contact Bruce he will send you 5 leaf springs and two I beams to make up double and triple leaf spring I beams. The cost for this is low, a few dollars, but the rewards can be high. There are others that have stuffed, "stuff" ...."material".... down beside the leaf spring to make it stiffer. Do this proper and get the real leaf springs from Bruce direct.
Just a recommendation. Good luck.
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Chris,
Yes, I appear to have one leaf spring and examining my Beam/Spring where it connects to the spindle it does not appear that I have any damping material. Looking at Bruce's parts diagram it seems a simple process to remove and replace the I Beam/leaf spring assembly. Simply remove the screw from the back end of the spindle and slide out the beam/spring assembly. (no hammer required) I am going to contact Bruce today to get the extra beams and springs. How do the extra leaf springs attach to the I Beam? Or do you just slide the extra springs in next to the one attached to the I Beam?
While on the subject of damping, I believe I mentioned earlier I have the damping trough attached but don't use because the silicone migrated out of the trough and made a mess. Is there a substitute like some type of oil that would add damping but not be prone to migrate out of the trough?
Thanks,
Harry |
Hi Harry
" no hammer required "
hah hah ....lol...I like your sense of humor :^)
there is a pic on my virtual system of the three I Beams. I looked #37. Good number for a race car ?
It’s been a really long time since I touched the I Beam or changed carts. I have been just playing records.
I would slide the weights off the I beam first, then you only need to loosen the end cap bolt. The I beam pulls right out. The leaf springs are glued together onto the I Beam - become permanent. Bruce can send you loose leaf springs and beams that you assemble and glue; or he will do it for you - but only if he is around and not traveling. In this case there might be wait. Warning ...he might be flying around somewhere studying the hearing of another exotic animal. What a life ! Make sure you say Hi to him from us here. I still can’t believe he took time out for us to test out the 420str cartridge aka..cracker jack box cartridge.
I’m not sure what you mean by trough oil migrating out. I only use enough to just touch the bottom of the paddle. Unfortunately, I have never come across any oil in this Audio hobby, or even boating and auto hobbies, that is not messy and just a real PITA. You need to be careful around it, and I am not the most careful person that’s for sure.
In discussions with Bruce years ago I did ask him why he didn’t put the trough at the front, assuming the arm is mounted on the right side of the table. From what I recall he said it was too messy and too great a chance of an accident happening in front. Analog can be so hazardous you know, compared to ........ Digital. Until you maybe accidentally delete your digital music files by mistake.........with no backup .......hah hah
The ET2 troughs are no longer made as far as I know so valuable, to an ET2 owner.
When not using the turntable I keep the armwand over so the cartridge is near the spindle. I then put a cover over the back end of the ET arm covering the trough and far end of the air bearing spindle/weights/I beam. I keep an old record on the platter itself. Dust still gets underneath it :^(
btw - A very nice cart you have with that Delos.
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Just got your response and still have questions but it's very late here. I'll respond more tomorrow. I can't resist commenting on your last paragraph, however. My lord you are more OC than me. I keep a sheet of green felt on top of the dust cover on my VPI HW 19 to keep the dust off the dust cover.
Cheers,
Harry
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Harry - my turntable doesn’t come with a dust cover like your vpi; so I keep the parts that matter covered and just dust the rest of it as needed. I do need to come up with a better system because the kitty stole the drive system from it last month. 8^0 |
No dust cover? How do you sleep at night?😰 Ok, a little hard to see from your pictures, but it looks like I just glue (super glue?) extra leaf springs to the front side of the I Beam (the side with the numbers). I shot off an email to Bruce and told him you were the source of my inquiry/purchase. I'll let you know results.
I have corresponded with Bruce a couple times over the years and always found him most helpful. BTW, my brother-in-law, also an audiophile, had occasion to visit Bruce at his home/factory several years ago while on a business trip to Tallahassee. He said it was a most interesting visit.
I envy you with your two listening rooms. Mine is 1/2 of our living room so there are limits to what my wife can accept. 😢
FYI, my ET II is mounted on a VPI HW 19 (MK III I Think) upgraded with the original SAMA, TNT platter and bearing. I use the Phorpenix Eagle and Roadrunner for speed control. If you haven't come across these, I highly recommend them. They keep speed on my rig locked in to within .002 RPM.
Hope I'm not wearing you out. I'm a retired 73 year old so I have lots of time on my hands. I have an interesting historical note on my preamp. If you are interested let me know.
Harry |
How do you sleep at night ? When I first discovered the silk thread/string gone, I panicked and looked at the exposed tonearm wiring. It was intact. Then I looked for the cantilever on the cart. It was still there too. Sigh of relief. She didn’t go to town on it. Door stays closed now. Never did find the silk thread .....don’t know where she dragged it to. Sounds like you have a well setup rig Harry. I look forward to hearing of the results. Myself, I would keep the trough paddle not touching while you determine which of the I beams work best in your system with that cartridge. The triple I beam will make tracking the most difficult - least amount of damping. This is just like a car on a race track with three suspension settings. Race tracks differ as do LPs especially the eccentric ones. The theory - We are matching the I Beam action to the compliance of the cartridge; at the same changing the resonant frequency of the I Beam with the thicker leaf spring (multiple joined springs) ; to hopefully be more in sync with the less compliance cart. Your ears will tell the real story. I owned a couple VPI’s in the past. My first ET2 came on a HW19 MKIV with the piano black finish - suspended, but no speed controller. That lead to a TNT that I owned for a few years. My current main table works much differently. The thread is applied loose and the motor delivers shots of power to keep the heavy platter rotating. If I change the speed on the motor a little, the platter speed change does not register till about 5 seconds later. That’s how little effect the motor has on the rotating platter. Hope I’m not wearing you out. I really like the AudioGon sharing of info during the winter. Usually on here in the morning. The caffeine kicking in is responsible for all the detail. Until the bears that Frogman alluded to, take me away in late Spring; the schedule depends on when those pesky black flies calm down. I can deal with mosquitoes, I can deal with horse flies...but those damn blackflies ... You have me very curious about your preamp ? |
The VPI with your first ET2 was the same as mine. Not sure if mine is a III or IV, but it is piano black, suspended with the acrylic deck and arm board. I've toyed with the idea of replacing the springs with pucks but am concerned about footfalls with no suspension. House has wood floors. Sounds like a very slick bearing on your current platter.
We don't get so many black flies down here in N.C. but my father's family was all from Maine and as a kid we used to go up there for visits. I do remember the black flies. Not nice.
My Preamp:
I lived for many years in Fort Lauderdale, Fla. My favorite audio shop was (and still is) in Hollywood, Fla. (Hollywood Sound), just a couple blocks from the offices and factory for Straight Wire cable. In fact the audio shop's owner's wife was the receptionist for Straight Wire. One day while hanging out at Hollywood Sound I spied a used CAT SL-1 for sale and started salivating. The SL-1 is the preamp that Straight Wire used during their formative days to develop their interconnect. It had been modified to move the phono inputs to the left side right next to the first stage tubes of the phono stage (6DJ8's), the point to point wiring had been replaced with Straight Wire and the high/Low switch had been bypassed. There maybe other mods but those are the only ones I recognized.
To make a long story longer, I bought the SL-1 and have now owned it for close to 25 years. I have retubed from time to time and had to have the large capacitor in the power supply replaced but that's all I've had to do to it. I have heard a lot of preamps over the years but, with the exception of a couple of ARC's (10's and 11's) have never.been tempted to replace it. Alas, no remote but I'm not yet so lazy or old that I must have a remote.
Lately, I have been reading about the ARC SP 20. Haven't heard one yet but the reviews are over the top and it has a remote. Unfortunately, like most of the current ARC stuff, it is very expensive. If one comes up on the used market at something I can afford I may have to jump. I'd like to hear it first but I am very rural and I've found that auditioning in a showroom with someone else's system really doesn't tell all you need to know. |
Quite the story on your special CAT SL1 Harry. Thanks for sharing. Your preamp is a keeper, and I think you will be between a rock and a hard place if you bring another preamp in. I have a story about a preamp too, and find it very ironic after your story.
When I went to audition an ARC Sp11 MKII, some 20+ years ago, the owner selling the SP11 also had a CAT SL-1 in the room. He had just bought the Sp11 MkII on a local audio website. I know because I had missed out on it, but was surprised to see it for sale again so soon. I wasn’t happy that he had raised the price couple hundred, but I probably would never see one again, so I went to see and hear it. One of my preamps at the time was the ARC Sp8 for a number of years, so I brought it along. Long story short. We went back and forth with the 3 preamps listening to music for a few hours. Thinking about it now, isn’t it amazing that complete strangers can do this together ?
Now I know he was not sure if he really wanted to sell it (one reason the session lasted so long); but what was he going to do with two preamps? I ended up going home with it. I sold the sp8 at a later date that year. The Sp8 price has doubled since. There is a real following for that thick sounding Sp8 preamp.
Now the thing about the ARC SP11MKII. We were running it that day in full featured mode where all the features/controls "circuits" are in play. All those circuits can be bypassed with flick of a switch and run in ARC’s hot rod mode. It’s a different beast when run in this mode. Plus it has adjustable gain on a dial, separate from the level/volume. ARC still don’t offer that anymore. I have trialed with some pretty good preamps since, but none have sounded better. So still have it. I consider the SP11 MKII and the CAT SL-1 among those very special Audio Products. I discovered Bruce used an SP11 when he tested out our Acutex.
Also
I am of the opinion after my experiences with trialing other preamps and balanced designs; that if something is designed right and executed well - the single-ended circuit can in fact sound better than balanced because fewer parts are being used. You do have to be more anal with your cable setup, positioning, grounding.
That SP20 you mentioned looks interesting, but you know... I am getting some not great vibes from ARC just from the communication aspect, or lack of, with Kalvin at ARC over the last year. All replies have come back not as Kalvin, but as general ARC Customer Service with not much help except "look in the manual". Not the company in this regard it once was. Used to be able to ring up Leonard or Kalvin, or email, and get a schematic or ask a question. I think those days are gone with the new ownership.
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Good morning Chris,
Nice story about your preamp. These are some of the adventures that make this hobby so much fun. As you probably are aware ARC was acquired be the huge Sonus Faber conglomerate and it appears their services (and prices) are being affected accordingly.
i have communicated with Bruce and he is making up two new I Beams for me. One with two springs and one with three. He was a little skeptical of three springs and had concerns it "would not last."
In in my impatience, last evening I pressed a small blob of blu tac where the beam attaches to the bearing tube. It stiffened the spring significantly and I heard a substantial improvement. Lower, tighter bass, more defined images, darker background and far better decay. Perhaps it was the mood and the wine but I found a big improvement. I'll let you tonight whether it was real or imagined.
Harry
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Well Chris, it was not imagined, blu tac tightened things up. Of course it's the same wine. Bruce says the new I Beams are on the way. I'll leave you alone until they get here
Harry.
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Hi Harry it was not imagined This is not one of those audio tweaks that has audiophiles divided on forums on whether it works or not. It can not be imagined as we are making actual physical changes to the firmness of the I Beam, and also changes resonances. Trust me you will not be imagining things when you attempt the Triple Leaf Spring I Beam. The Blue Tac does go against design - along with making things firmer it is also dampening / deadening from my experiences, so I would be very interested in finding out how it changes when you insert the actual double leaf spring I Beam that Bruce is sending you. I am a big stickler to staying with design and getting the most out of the designers intentions. With that Bruce told me years ago...." Yeah go ahead and load up the I beam with as much weight as you can ....as close to the air bearing as possible ....see what happens.... at some point you will bottom out the bearing." So he is all for experimentation. :^) I was going through some trying times and audiophilia nervosa was safe and helping me deal with things. So I got the extra weights from the car tire shop and molded them. They throw the old ones out so they were free. The look on their faces when I took a few was priceless. The same look the Wal Mart employee gave me when I bought the local store out of Blue Tac to fill the hollow Pillars of the VPI TNT to ........see what would happen. Regarding Bruce’ comments. He was a little skeptical of three springs and had concerns it "would not last." Yeah, I mentioned earlier that tracking will be difficult but...... IMO, you still need the triple I beam so that you can personally get to understand what the limits of tracking are in your setup. fwiw - I am of the mindset and believe, not just for this hobby but all of them; in going a little past the limit to see what can be done. As long as you are not hurting anything, you can always come back a bit. In this case maybe settling on the double spring I Beam. I am using the double spring w/out damping right now. I stopped drinking wine. I think the protein in it was keeping me up in the middle of the night. So beer and the occasional whiskeys now. |
Hi Chris,
Bruce's I Beams arrived today! Contrary to what I previously advised, when I removed my single, spring beam it did have some type of damping material on either side of the spring. What appear to be small rectangular pieces of plastic or rubber.
I started by attaching the new, triple spring beam. Very nice improvement and I detected no tracking issues. I listened for a while and then swapped for the double spring beam. While not huge, the triple spring had audibly tighter bass. I put the triple spring beam back on and played some very dynamic stuff which revealed no tracking issues. Finally, I dug out my ancient Shure cartridge test record. It has several bands to test Trackability. Again, no tracking error detected. Soooo, at least on my rig the triple spring works the best.
I would not have believed such seemingly small tweaks could bring such huge rewards. I have increased air pressure moved the weights out to almost the 6 position and installed the new springs. Each of these changes brought significant improvement.
I can't thank you enough for all the suggestions. You have helped me bring my system to a whole new level.
Lastly, I would be remiss if I did not comment on the overall quality of your ET forum. I have read many audio forums over the years. Many often degenerate into arguments over whether tubes are better than transistors, belt drive beats direct drive, or even politics. Not so your forum, just honest observations and tips to help contributors and readers find true enjoyment from their music.
Harry
P.S. Tubes are better.😉🎶
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P.P.S. Chris, I didn't respond to your blu tac question. I didn't notice any deadening with blu tac on the single spring plank. Having said that, with three springs and no blu tac things tightened up further. This setup is, however, ruthless. If it's a bad recording it's really bad. Bright recordings are VERY bright. But muddy recordings are very muddy too. |
^^^^ Hi Harry your comments above could describe going to a different design speaker. :^) Who are these people that say the source is not amongst the most important in the audio chain ? Try pulling this one off with digital; with such a small change to the source setup. This setup is, however, ruthless. Your Lyra uses a Namiki microridge line-contact nude diamond stylus (2.5um x 75um) see Soundsmith comments that follow below asterisks. I am reading into your comments that your ET2 with the 3 spring setup and the Lyra Delos is pretty much dissecting your albums now. Good ones - sound amazing. Not good ones - can no longer be listened to? Not great if you are a music lover with many albums. Have you tried lowering VTA on the bright sounding ones and raising it on the muddy sounding ? Records, even same thickness ones are cut at different vertical angles depending on the plant they were made at. This is covered in detail by Bruce in the manual. The ET2 happens to be the only tonearm in the world (due to patent) that adjusts VTA without changes to anything else in the alignment (like VTF). (if the VTA block is set up right) I think from a pure groove tracking sense your ET2 with the triple leaf spring is set up for Indy 500 Oval right now. If records were made the same and uniform physically like CD’s; this would work better. But the records and grooves are more like the races that go through cities. Each one is very different. I think, along with VTA adjustments, you will need some cushioning/damping. So will be interested to hear how things change with first the double spring suspension, and also VTA changes. ********************************** From Soundsmith describes styli on your cartridge. http://www.sound-smith.com/articles/stylus-shape-informationThen, there are the "fine line" styli, including standard Contact Line, as well as the more esoteric evolutions such as Shibata, Micro Line or Ridge, Optimized Contour Contact Line (Soundsmith) and so on. These are almost always nudes, for lowest possible mass. These designs have a sharper edge (radius) that play the record groove walls, which allows better high frequency reproduction (especially at the inner grooves where it is more difficult) resulting in lower distortion, better imaging, depth, and many other aspects of fine analog listening that are lost when the high frequencies are not resolved as well - usually by lower quality stylus shapes.
The higher end designs, however, require far more precise alignment than the lower quality shapes, for what should be obvious reasons. It is easier to align a rounded end to a groove than a V shaped end. Alignment issues for both rotating off a vertical imaginary line in the groove looking end on, as well as tilting front to back along the groove become far more critical for proper tracing of the groove.
Then there are noise and wear issues. Conicals statistically trace less surface area of the groove wall, so can theoretically pick up less record damage (unless they trace an area where there HAS been lots of wear or damage) and can pick up fewer sonic bursts from defects or noise from dirt or other foreign objects in the groove. But the wear factor is higher (faster) for both the record and styli. Alignment considerations however, are much easier to achieve. But far poorer high frequency response. For analog, that’s bad.
Conversely, the fine line designs require records that are in better condition and cleaner to be played mainly noise free. But the reward for playing a good clean undamaged record with a properly aligned fine line diamond and quality cartridge cannot be overly described in terms of enjoyment. ****************** Curious to know how your wife is dealing with your newfound tweaking/ hot-rodding behavior as you are in a shared space ? Chris |
Hello Chris,
Thanks again for the extra tips. I'm going to do some more listening before I go back to the double spring plank. I'm just starting to play with VTA after many years. Before these latest improvements I really could hear only a subtle difference in VTA changes, if any. I just played the Analog Productions pressing of Sonny Rollins "Way Out West". Contrary to some other records I have played, it sounded a little thicker than I remembered it. I dialed in some VTA (post down) and it thinned out/tightened up. Soooo, with my improvements I can now detect the VTA adjustments. Lyra recommends arm perfectly level to platter claiming proper VTF wil result in proper VTA. This is a little counterintuitive since it does not take into account different record thicknesses and different cutting angles.
If I can't tame some of the brighter records with VTA I'll try some damping. I am, indeed, a music lover with about 1500 LPs. Not near your collection but significant. I have very eclectic taste including pop, country, folk, blues, but mostly jazz and almost no hard rock. Preferred listening is jazz quartets and trios and female vocals. I am a huge Keth Jarrett and Bill Evans fan. Early Miles and Coultrane. I don't do drugs so I can't follow their later stuff.
The wife has pretty much abandoned the living room to me except when we have company and at bed time when I frequently hear "Can you turn that down a little."
I'll report back after more extended listening and VTAing.
Thanks,
Harry
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If I can't tame some of the brighter records with VTA I'll try some damping.
Harry The aluminum armwand is not a great match with the Lyra. If getting the Carbon Fibre or Mag armtube is not an option you could try damping the armtube. I think Frogman is out of his Magic Audiophile armtube wrap ? Maybe others can suggest other options ? I would be tempted to just try two Blue Tac dots on top of each cartridge bolt head. You could weigh each on a digital gauge. This will obviously mean you would need to go out higher on the I beam - a good thing; as long as there is room on the end of the "Pirate Plank". :^) Cheers Chris |
Hello Chris,
My post from yesterday was mistaken. I adjusted VTA post up to get more clarity on the Way Out West album. In the interim, I have gone back to two springs and after considerable listening I'm pretty happy with what I'm getting. Really haven't lost detail with two springs but it is not as bright. It is sometimes easy to mistake bright for detail.
With three springs I found I was not relaxing, shoulders pulled up tight like listening to a bad CD. When I went back to two springs I noticed everything (including me ) was much more relaxed. But cymbals still shimmer.
I'm going to keep my eyes open for a Carbon fiber or Mag arm tube but for now I'm quite pleased with what I'm hearing.
Happy Listening,
Harry
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This is good Harry. "With three springs I found I was not relaxing, shoulders pulled up tight like listening to a bad CD. When I went back to two springs I noticed everything (including me ) was much more relaxed. " This is part of the reason I said you won't be imagining, and I believe one of the reasons Bruce said the triple leaf spring "would not last". Curious to know how much distance there is from the joint that holds the armtube, aka the "Gooseneck" , name courtesy of our NZ ET2 owners; to where the phono wires plug into your CAT SL-1. I mean if you went a direct route from the Gooseneck to the CAT SL-1; not including the distance going through the air bearing spindle. thanks. Chris |
Hi Chris,
Not sure exactly the distance your are asking about. From where the tonearm wires exit the bearing spindle to the VPI clear plexiglass phono block is probably about 6 inches. Then I have one meter interconnect cables with RCA's going from the phono box to the CAT.
I went back to three springs, but this time with the two blu tac balls, one on each bolt holding the cartridge. (Yep, I weighed them to get them the same.) Now I have a blue eyed cockroach sitting on my records:). (But then if I was interested in cosmetics I probably wouldn't own an ET II in the first place) Cosmetics aside, its not exactly what I am looking for. I am having this internal battle between detail and smoothness. With the current arm tube I think I need two and 1/2 springs. Problem is some records sound amazing with three springs and others are best with two springs, even when I play with VTA. As advised, however, I can tell resolution has improved because I can now hear the VTA adjustments.
Going to do some more swapping, listening and comparing but, in the end I think I will have to spring for the Magnesium arm tube. $575.00 just seems like a lot for an arm tube. Then again, we're not exactly dealing with a Pioneer rack system either.
Cheers,
Harry
P.S.
I don't know if you are old enough to remember, one of my favorite comedians, Bob Newhart, but reading over our mutual posts to your forum I couldn't help but hear a non-audiophile Bob Newhart do a parody of our conversations. This is a little far afield of your forum but I am sure the ET enthusiasts on the form will appreciate.
"Harry: Ok, Chris, let me see if I have this straight. I need to use double or triple springs on my plank?
Chris: Yes, Harry, with two or three springs your plank will be stiffer for greater enjoyment of the music.
Harry: Well, I tried the triple springs and they made my plank too stiff which is causing pain. It is too sharp.
Chris: Yes I was afraid of that. You might want to consider going back to two springs which will make it a little less stiff and may relieve the pain. Or you can try getting some sticky blue stuff called blu tac. You make two small blue balls from the blu tac and put one on each of your bolts. But you have to weigh your blue balls to make sure they are the same weight or your needle won't stay in the groove. And we all know what happens when the needle won't stay in the groove. Not good for anyone.
Harry: Ok, Chris, got two blue balls on my wand and three springs on my plank and it works pretty well. Just for variety, however, I'm going to check out my plank with two springs again. I have this blue-eyed cockroach crawling my grooves." |
hah hah.... :^) I like Bob Newhart. I like the "STOP IT" scene. I feel some of today's millennials need some of this "type" of guidance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0lr63y4Mwso I am biased - still have two of them (millennials) - still living in my house. I am very old school. ********************** I have this blue-eyed cockroach crawling my grooves. Ladies don't like to see cockroaches, but they (cockroaches) are very healthy to eat. Harry, I hope we don't get you in trouble with your wife, with this cockroach, whose origins can be traced to this thread. So has she commented on ole Blue Eyes yet ? If she noticed the cockroach, then she will also probably notice a new shiny black Mag armtube. pic 35 on my virtual system page shows the differences between the two. But bringing in an armtube is fairly safe I think. It's kind of small overall and hard to tell how much it cost by looking at it. Some years ago when I got the Mag wand, I was talking to Bruce about how he makes the Mag wand, and it is not an easy process to make it at all. If not done right the cast gets ruined. Problem is some records sound amazing with three springs and others are best with two springs, even when I play with VTA. As advised, however, I can tell resolution has improved because I can now hear the VTA adjustments. Assuming ones platter keeps proper speed and no other changes. The actual record becomes the real moving target. Different record plants, different vertical cut angles. Your post comments support this. *************************** re: My question about your wiring My Sp11 is positioned immediately to the side of the ET 2.5. A happy face wire smile between them. This allows for the shortest wiring length. There is a little over 2 feet of wiring - unfortunately the phono inputs are on the wrong side (farthest) side of the preamp. So I had to do what I have called James Bond type manoeuvring, with the wiring, to get it quiet. Not encouraging anything here; but with a little over a meter of wiring you are a candidate for the straight shot unshielded wiring. The factory wiring ET2 setup on tables like VPI and SOTA had to be done that way - to help sell product. So just something to consider. What does a straight shot buy you? The effect of this change would be like replacing a V6 engine with a V8, in the same car, but with no gas penalty. The music will sound like it's coming from a bigger pipe at you. But, and this is a big but...the wiring will not be Pussy Cat proof. 8^0 |
I have re-wired avoiding my internal ET2 harness as well. I have been advised by a rewiring guy that you can realize up to 3db gain by ridding of those connections within the tonearm, not sure it is that extreme, but was noticeable for sure! I picked up a second wand from Bruce so I can more easily swap cartridges, and I made both a Cardas and Litz loom, seen in these pics, had to arrange gear as mentioned above to keep them short! Speed has indeed been an issue, but am making progress on that front too! ;) |
Bh80201,
Thanks for chiming in. I need all the help I can get. Nice rig by the way.
Chris,
I can do a very short run. My TT sits immediately to the left of the CAT and one of the mods Straightwire did to the CAT was to move the phono in plugs from the back to the left side. After reading your last I swapped out interconnect. I'm now using a 1 ft pure silver interconnect. So total distance from cartridge to CAT is about 2 ft. The change is subtle, if any. Of course I'm still going through the din plug at the goose neck and the RCA's at the phono box. I'm a little intimidated by running hot rod from the cartridge to the CAT. As you observed regarding your feline, that presents a lot of opportunity to snag that fragile litz. I'm getting closer to springing for a new wand. After reading Bruce's description of the mag and cf, it appears the compliance of my Delos is a better match for the mag. Do you agree?
Not too concerned about wife complaints. As long as it gets in the house unseen she will never notice. With the exception of power amp and speakers my whole rig is in a large closet which she never enters. She is definitely a non-audiophile. She thinks music is for background noise.
Thanks,
Harry
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bh80231,
Sorry I got your monicker wrong in my prior respons. Where did you get the way too cool red tips for the ET levers? As I said to Chris, if I was into cosmetics over sound I wouldn't have an ET, but I gotta get me some of those red tips.
Harry
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No worries vpi, Those are from Lowe's Hardware, in the audiophile aisle... ;) They are screw protector caps, made to put on the end of screws to keep from catching or cutting yourself, you can find all colors, try Ace, Home Depot, Lowes... usually in the speciality hardware section. Regarding troughs, mine had the little end cap fall out and subsequently disappeared, so I have no "end" for mine currently, need to craft a fix for that. |
Bruce’s description of the mag and cf, it appears the compliance of my Delos is a better match for the mag. Do you agree?
Harry here is the ET2 Wand Guideline and some thoughts. Guideline Aluminum Wand ----------->Carbon Fiber Wand ----------->Magnesium Wand Carts High Compliance ----- ->Medium to Low Compliance ---> Low Compliance So. If you only had one wand and play Higher compliance MM ...........................................Go with Aluminum Wand Higher compliance MM / med - low compliance MC .......Go with the CF Wand Only use low compliance MC. ......................Go with the Magnesium Wand The CF wand is the best all around wand. If you send Bruce an extra aluminum wand, he will wrap it for you and convert it to a Carbon Fiber wand. *************************************** With that as we know this vinyl is all about resonances and vibrations. Anyone that is using a low compliance MC with the aluminum wand has done "mods", "tweaks" in their system chain somewhere to make it work. If you go through this thread you know that members like Frogman, Richard Krebs Dover at the top of head, plus others, all did extensive mods to their ET2 aluminum wands / and to run lower compliance MC among other carts. In the picture that BH’ attached - Hi BH’... been a long time - nice setup and nice avatar :^) He appears to be using an aluminum wand with an MC ? It is hard to tell if it has the CF wrap on it. Are you still using the single leaf spring BH? When I used an MM on the Magnesium wand it was absolutely strident. Even though the cart sounded fine with the aluminum and CF wands. This tells me the Mag wand really is for Low compliance and maybe a point of no return :^0 *********************************** So Logic tells us that if someone made a Low compliance MC work with their Aluminum Wand; should they then introduce the Big Dog Mag wand; they most certainly will be making changes to their system, even though the guidelines say they (Low Compliance MC/ Mag Wand) are the best combo together. Make sense ? ****************************** the single shot wiring deserves a separate discussion. It is filled with frustrations in fighting physics, but the reward is worth it in the end. The key is not to fight physics. Braiding wires is great for dealing with interference, but not so good in allowing the ET2 to have freeplay. The solution you go with will be determined by your turntable plinth style. You can take this one to the bank. I found a compromise works well. We can discuss more. Harry - some Canadian perspective for you on the cost of that Mag armwand. $575 US dollars is now $775 Cdn. dollars ....... :^( The differences between the Aluminum and Mag wands for readers. Click on this link. https://goo.gl/photos/Rjcvbjfrms23zc1M6Cheers Chris |
Hi Chris, yes, had not enabled the "watch" on this thread, so was oblivious until recently it had restarted. I indeed have 2 aluminum wands and yes, running LOMC's - Ortofon Quintet Black (boron cantilever), Ortofon Quintet Mono, and an AT33PTG/II. I have had different wraps on them in the past, and stuffed foam inside too (what is your stance on that?), but they are naked now. I have ordered my own sheet of CF wrap though, so am going to give that a try. I do still have the original single leaf, but seeing your post I did write (again) to Bruce yesterday, so might change that up too. And I am shamed into knowing I need to clean the manifold too! Although I do have dual inline filters and dry Colorado air in my favor. Oh, and out of order, but Bruce recommended this pump to me a few months back, so am running this now, is performing well, very quiet. |
Chris,
Thanks for in depth info on wands. Still mulling this issue. It seems the cf would work with a wider range of cartridges but the mag is a closer match to my Delos. I'm back to two springs with no damping. In the process I also checked/reset all alignment-azimuth, overhang, leveling, vtf, etc. Last night I was getting the best sound I have heard from my rig.
BH,
I'm on my way to the Lowe's audiophile aisle :). While I don't have the knowledge or expertise of others on this thread, for what it's worth, I can highly recommend you try the double and triple spring planks. They are pretty inexpensive and make a large change to the sound. I found triple springs too strident and the double just right, but with damping the triple might work for someone else.
Bruce recommended that Alita pump to me a while back too, but I am confused by the recommendation. The Alita A15 only puts out 1.4 psi and the ET II manual recommends a minumum of 2.5 with the low pressure manifold. I am running a Medo in a quiet box with a fan for cooling. The Medo is rated at 7.11 psi. It says it only has a 60 minute duty cycle but with the plate fan on the quiet box I am listening for hours with no problems. Lots of Medo pumps on EBay.
Cheers,
Harry |
Hi Harry, Looking at the new springs currently... I made same assumption on the Alita and Bruce clarified from the product website: Look at the pressure versus flow graph, at lower flow rates the pressure goes up, the Alita AL-15 usually measures about 3.5 - 4.0 when operating a tonearm.
it is turning out to be more than strong enough. 👍 |
Bh80231
I have had different wraps on them in the past, and stuffed foam inside too (what is your stance on that?), but they are naked now. Bh In the past I experimented a lot with the I Beam, PSI - multiple pumps, Wiring, and different carts. I also own all three armwands. So I exchanged the armwands. I've never run the aluminum & CF tubes naked that I can recall. My take is Bruce put it in the tube for a reason; but the tonearm is very easy to tweak, so I would try and use it whichever way it works in ones system, understanding that it is resonating more without the foam. Thinking about it, the aluminum wand may work better without foam, in a cart like the Sonus Blue Gold - Dynamic Compliance: 50 x 10-6cm/Dyne. I have run that cart on the ET2 with no problem at all but the foam was in the aluminum wand. Have you tried running your tonearm with the highest vertical inertia - the least amount of weight possible on the I beam ? |
bh80231 I indeed have 2 aluminum wands and yes, running LOMC’s - Ortofon Quintet Black (boron cantilever), Ortofon Quintet Mono, and an AT33PTG/II.
I have had different wraps on them in the past, and stuffed foam inside too (what is your stance on that?), but they are naked now.
I have ordered my own sheet of CF wrap though, so am going to give that a try. bh80231 I stripped my aluminium wand of both the inside foam and also the heat shrink on the tube - at the time I was running both a low compliance Denon 103 Garrott ( boron cantilever/weinz tip ) and low to medium compliance Carnegie Model One. TT was Sota Star vacuum at that time. In both instances I got a lighter tonal balance but with more transparency. Overall I preferred the increased transparency over the slight lightening of balance. The other mod I did was to remove the teflon insert from the headshell part of the tube and replace it with a carbon fibre insert pressed and bonded in. This was worthwhile as well. |
"I have very eclectic taste including pop, country, folk, blues, but mostly jazz and almost no hard rock. Preferred listening is jazz quartets and trios and female vocals. I am a huge Keth Jarrett and Bill Evans fan. Early Miles and Coultrane. I don’t do drugs so I can’t follow their later stuff" Hi Harry I have a peculiar - sort of abnormal? - reaction to Jazz. It relaxes me...maybe a little too much. I tend to settle back in my chair..arms lay at rest at my sides. My right arm perilously close and within reach of whatever beverage has been placed there. I tend to get anxious when I am not doing anything, relaxing... so unless I am doing something on the computer and listening to back ground music, depending on what the beverage is ... it can get a little silly for me. I prefer full bore orchestral...I played trombone for a number of years...not as cool as the drums, trumpet or sax..but not as bad as the tuba. I stopped playing. Anyway those influential years put my bias on the bass clef. With Orchestral Classical if a good performance, my arms/hands will start moving....waving ...in front of me. If a really good performance I stand up and continue waving my arms. General Audiophile Tip Make sure your wife catches you during one of these moments, she will start to worry a little bit for you; if she still cares about you...:^( You will gain audio hobby leverage. Audiophile Points. Anyway - breaks are needed between sides for refreshment. I also don’t and never done drugs either unless one considers alcohol a drug. Prefer natural endorphins. Cheers Chris |
Hi Chris,
This is indeed a strange hobby. And one never knows when the most seemingly innocuous comment by a fellow audiophile will bring a breakthrough. Such is the case with your last description of listening preferences. I have a fair collection of classical music. Mostly stuff an audiophile was supposed to own. Some shaded dogs, Chesky reissue shaded dogs and other audiophile "records to die for". But never much enjoyed listening to them.
After your latest post I figured I'd throw on a shaded dog. First one was Fiedler and Boston Pops, "Fiddle Faddle." Not exactly classical but close enough. It was awful. Just ear bleeding bright. "Oh, no, am I back to the drawing board?" Then I thought, wait a minute this is a shaded dog, it should not sound like this. Let's play with VTA. Amazing! Lyra says start with arm parallel to record and adjust from there, but with the tapered ET arm wands parallel is difficult to eyeball.
Well, I started adjusting and voilà I had been almost 5 marks too post high on the VTA gauge. After proper adjustment all the excessive brightness and tizzyness disappeared and everything became warmer and smoother without loss of my coveted detail. Switched over to some of the records I rely on for set up an they were much improved also. I can't believe I was so far off on VTA.
This helps explain why I had such a hard time choosing between two and three springs.
Well excuse me while I go listen to some shaded dogs.
Thanks again,
Harry.
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Well I guess it's time for me to stop lurking and ask some questions. I've enjoyed my ET2 for 25 years or more and rediscovered this thread last night. I have a SOTA nova table with cosmos armboard made for the ET2. This has metal contact points for the base tripod and works well. I recently upgraded to the aluminum base, joint and VTA display. Running two WISA pumps out of phase and getting 7psi on my pressure gauge, with two diy surge tanks in series, and a small surge tank made from a plastic gas tank for R/C planes located very close to the arm.
This last tweak hasn't been mentioned here but I think it helps. My I-beam is from the hobby store as well (twice the usual length) and allows me to place very little weight way out the beam. (There are limits I discovered.) My manifold is the high pressure one, tried with a shop vac and pressure regulator up to 30 psi, but the quieter background wasn't worth the noise in the basement. So, I'm back to the WISA's now. My cartridge is the Lyra Kleos recently replacing a still functioning 20 y/o Audioquest 7000 NSX. Arm is the magnesium one.
I've learned a lot in catching up on this thread and really appreciate the dedication and enthusiasm of this group for the ET-2. -I thought I was the last fanatic out there.
My plan is to try the double and/or triple leaf springs, maybe go for the Alita pump and start using the regulator again.
I would also like to try the direct wiring harness, but don't know where to look for one. Any links available?
Thanks for a great discussion and cheers,
John |
Hi, John,
Welcome aboard. You are definitely at the right place. Like you I've owned my ET II for over 25 years. It's hard to beat. The guys on this thread have vast experience with our arm and are quick to give great advice that really works. No snake oil here. I think, however, they are ready to throw me off this thread. I can't believe that after 40 years as a wanna-be audiophile I was so stupid as to have my VTA so far off. (See my last post.) I'm really embarrassed 😡
Don't know if Chris will ever forgive me.
Cheers,
Harry
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Hey Harry,
I found that it's easiest to set VTA with the Lyra cartridges by starting with the top of the cartridge parallel to the record surface and wiggle up and down from there by ear. -The little gauge that Bruce sells helps with very small adjustments and only $80.
Did you ever deal with Taylor House up in NC?
Regards and thanks for reading my post,
John |
Thanks for the VTA tip John. I'll have to look into Bruce's gauge. Is this his set-up gauge or one just for VTA? No, I don't recall having dealt with Taylor house. Where are they?
Harry
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There's a picture of the VTA gauge on the ET site. Go there-products-ET2.5-VTA gauge.
Taylor House is in Sherrils Ford outside of Charlotte. I think Robert is still in business, but haven't called him in a while. I bought most of my analog gear from him.
John |
Hi guys
john would you want to sell your audio quest? I had one and loved it so am looking for another to see if my memory of it is as good as reality. Anyone try the alita pump after using the stock et one? Wondering if it is better. |
I've seen the AQ7000 for sale for $300, and I couldn't let it go for that. I have an interesting story about that cartridge. After a few years use, the stylus went missing from the cantilever. -Don't know what happened, but when I let AQ know about it, they offered to send me their demonstrator which was barely used from their demo room in exchange for my worthless mess. I respect that company greatly for that. Anyway, it's my backup, and I have trouble hearing an improvement with my Lyra Kleos. You know that Jon Carr designed both. So, sorry no interest here.
I have an Alita pump on order and will report back my impressions.
Cheers,
John |
Hi John Welcome to the thread. I would also like to try the direct wiring harness, but don't know where to look for one. Any links available? Pic 7 on my virtual system page shows one of my looms made for me years ago by Take Five Audio using WBT Next Gen Plugs. Here is the link to their information "Take Five Audio"Gene the owner, has made multiple looms for me and I have put friends onto him as well so that's one option for you. You would also be getting a 30% dollar exchange discount and probably free shipping. Just tell them you are inquiring into one of those ET looms you made for Chris. He will outline what parts are available, choice of wiring and even do a burn in for you. He does a nice tapered approach at the plug end which gives a lot of strength. Cheers Chris |
Good morning John,
Thanks for tip on the VTA gauge. Unfortunately, it won't fit with my dust cover. I think I have it dialed in correctly now.
Small world. My brother-in-law lives in Mooresville, just outside of Charlotte and if it is the same ROBERT, I have, indeed, been to his house/shop. It is on the lake. Nice guy and very knowledgeable.
Harry
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Hi Harry
re: VTA
The Lyra site shows your cartridge is made with a 20 degree vertical tracking angle.
One of Bruce’ findings documented in the ET2 manual.
The European vertical angle cutting standard closely matches the vertical angle present on modern day phono carts.
He’s done the analysis. If I brought a Lyra cart home I would grab one of my European made records that I like, set the top of the cart parallel with the record and go from there by ear. This is also appears to be the advice that John has given, and he is an actual Lyra owner. :^0
And I know we are aware of this but it’s worth repeating imo.
1) There are different vertical cut angles on records. And every time they change the cutting stylus, it is not a precise replacement. Also Logic says the Vertical cut angle on a new cutting stylus will not be exactly the same as it was before on the worn stylus. Then there is as we know,
2) Good and bad recordings of music. Some bright and highly compressed. I don’t like to fiddle with VTA too much. I have found with carts I have used that I can find an overall good spot using a European made record. Fine tuning out brightness and compression can be done using my pre-amp by either dialing the gain (separate from the volume) up or down. If its a good recording I can crank the gain up on my pre amp and set the volume from there.
Also
In talking with a couple studios that do vinyl in my area a few years ago, they indicated to me that if new music comes in from an artist that was recorded on better than CD quality files; these are indeed the files used for the LP usually; but one would need to check on a studio by studio basis to verify if you were really interested in that album. My digital is really good. I run off a dedicated Lenovo laptop to my ARC DAC8. I have a lot of vinyl to get through so I myself will not buy new 2017 vinyl of "new music" for an artist I "really" like, unless I can determine that the source digital files used were indeed better than cd quality 44.1 khz 16-bit.
Cheers Chris
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Hey Harry,
I gave up the dust cover a long time ago, as my I-beam is too long to fit under it.
I hope you don't play lp's with the cover in place, but you probably already knew that the cover ruins the sq of the table.
By the way, I used to "moonlite" in Mooresville on weekends. -nice area.
John |
Gyneguy how about 350 then?😁😇. Your a wise man for keeping it. I also have a Lyra helikon but the 7000 was a better match for my et as it had lower compliance. And yes I could see that the kleos may not be much of an improvement. |
Hey again,
I was told by a dealer that the suspension on the 20y/o AQ7000 NSX was probably shot and that it would tear up my LP's. That's why I bought the Kleos. Was this bad info, myth, sales pitch or what? Do suspensions really wear out even when the cartridge is not being used very much?
Any answers from anyone in this group greatly appreciated.
I think that the compliance on the Kleos is similar to the AQ7000.
John |
