I have been using these ET2's for over 9 years now. I am still figuring them out and learning from them. They can be modified in so many ways. Bruce Thigpen laid down the GENIUS behind this tonearm over 20 years ago. Some of you have owned them for over 20 years !
Tell us your secrets.
New owners – what questions do you have ?
We may even be able to coax Bruce to post here. :^)
There are so many modifications that can be done.
Dressing of the wire with this arm is critical to get optimum sonics along with proper counterweight setup.
Let me start it off.
Please tell us what you have found to be the best wire for the ET-2 tonearm ? One that is pliable/doesn’t crink or curl. Whats the best way of dressing it so it doesn’t impact the arm. Through the spindle - Over the manifold - Below manifold ? What have you come up with ?
Hi Chris, Thanks for nor banishing me from the thread. Perhaps it's just coincidence but my go to LP for set up has long been a Keith Jarrett on ECM. It is an all analog fine European pressing. Problem is it is just trio music and doesn't present the full spectrum. In my recent saga, as soon as the needle hit the RCA LSC Shaded Dog, large orchestral it was obvious something was very wrong. Just ear splitting strings and brass. I just started dialing down the VTA and everything smoothed out. In addition the low frequency foundation of the music appeared. Once I had it "right" on this LP I did some fine tuning with the ECM disc. My poor Delos must have been standing on its nose. 😩 I guess the silver lining is that the nose of my diamond took all the wear and the part that now hits the record is still mint.😅
Not only has the top smoothed out without the loss of any detail, it was like I had been missing the entire bottom half of the scale. I now have that magic "bloom" so many of us chase.
Like you, I buy almost no new music. I don't find much of it matches my taste (Diana Krall excepted). I do buy some reissue 180 gm stuff, but a lot of that is trash and, contrary to claims, are not done from original master tapes. I think Chad Kasem at Analog Productions does a terrific job, albeit he is pricing himself out of my market. Rumor has it Pure Pleasure also does nice work. I have one on order. I'll let you know how it sounds.
Thanks for your patience. Lord knows without your suggestions and encouragement my poor Delos might still be standing on its nose. Harry
We have all plowed for potatoes with our vinyl Harry :^)
Right now - not sure I will see the day again when I can drop $50-60 on a new LP record again. My two - 22 year old fraternal millennials are still draining me down faster than the world's oil supplies. I did not plan good for this. They have absolutely no sense of ownership, only know debt; and with the Greater Toronto Areas housing market going up 25 % a year they will never know home ownership here.
Was this bad info, myth, sales pitch or what? Do suspensions really wear out even when the cartridge is not being used very much?
John
So searches kept bringing up the Acura sports car then I found this.
Its a really nice cart. Since you asked; my two cents if I were in your shoes.
You have three options I can think of.
1) contact J Carr direct and ask for his opinion. maybe send it to him for inspection and possible tune up. this will probably take a long time
2) contact one of the Cart retippers/rebuilders in the US. Have them look it over. Of course due to age they will probably recommend something.
3) start using it on a select set of records till you can determine its real condition. Listen to them with your Lyra first then do the switch.
The chances of it being a time bomb is low due to who built it and you know its full history. But...... there were other reports on the internet of people losing the stylus.... 8^0
So with this info I would be inclined to put into use.
Then again I am not much of collector with carts as they are wear items - I see them like tires on my cars. If I am not using them, they are sold. I have maybe 5 carts remaining. A couple MC and 3 or 4 MM's.
How much would it cost to replace it with a like new cart today - that would help me to decide.
Hi Chris, Thanks for your thorough answer. In fact, I've already replaced the AQ 7000 with the Kleos, and it is now my backup just in case of disaster. Luckily I have no cats, the kids are grown, and if I ever get some housekeeping, they will not be allowed in my listening room. I looked at the link for a tonearm cable as well as yours. This would be my last upgrade. I like to have something to look forward to. Eh? Cheers, John
"I like to have something to look forward to. Eh?"
yes, for me there has to always be something there, that I am looking for, pursuing. I have found that keeping these "somethings" simple, but not easy to reach, is the secret to being sort of satisfied. Keep me from getting into trouble.
re: the kitty
I have always been a dog person. never had a cat. He is not allowed downstairs due to the hairs. My daughter acquired a dog and a Bengal kitty. We have been babysitting them while she travels. I show her dog called Lucky as my new RCA Victor dog on my systems page. Now this Bengal kitty; she has charisma, is independent and does not ask for much. I like those qualities. As a small kitty my daughter and I would watch her climb over my frequent play albums in rows on the floor; which was kind of cute. But no one told me she would grow to be able to jump 6 feet, and walk up the sides of walls.
Hi John id say you were fed a load of baloney. If the suspension was bad it will no longer play without the body hitting the record. Until that happens play away. Now obviously that doesn't take into account the state of the stylus. You could send to a retipper and have a new tip put on. Make sure you don't use a guy that replaces the cantilever as well. This will change the voicing of the cartridge.
Thanks analogluvr, I spoke to Bruce Thigpen yesterday about a number of things and was told that the Alita pump will not produce enough pressure for high pressure manifolds such as mine. The WISA's are still best for my rig unless I want a noisy shop pump or that monstrous dental pump. -Over the top and also noisy? Could someone explain how to set up that magnetic damping mechanism to replace the trough? I haven't used the trough in years, as I don't see how you would horizontally balance the arm with fluid in the trough. I think the bottom end of the FR would benefit from some kind of damping. Thanks for anyone's help on this, John
Could someone explain how to set up that magnetic damping mechanism to replace the trough?
John I discussed magnetic damping with Bruce when it came up in discussions here in 201* - I can't recall the year. Bruce was very intrigued, so much so that he tested it out himself. His findings, as far as the interaction between actual spindle and using the strongest magnets; there is just not enough movement in the spindle to produce any effect. So that is what he found. Next time you are talking to him remind him of our conversation. I did sense that he really wanted it to work as the oil is - messy.
With that the experimentation involves placing magnets - same poles facing each other - on either side of where the spindle exits so it is passing through the magnets. The idea of course being that repulsion controls the movement of the spindle.
My Verdier La Platine platter system works in a similar way, but on a much larger scale. Now the system with La Platine works because the actual platter which has the (top magnet) attached to the bottom of it, is moving at 33.3 rpm so you have braking action happening with the bottom magnet due to the movement. This braking action also helps to deal with the records behavior with its constantly changing grooves. I was fortunate to learn this from Mr. Verdier, before his passing.
Hi Chris! The magnet damping doesnt't work the way you describe it. What you describe is the magnet "levitating" of the Verdier (and others) by opposing magnets of same polarity. The proposed damping works by eddy current, the same as eddy current brakes. Basically you put a magnetic circuit very close to a electrically conducting surface. The magnetic flux crossing the surface induces a current in the conductor / surface, which creates a counteracting magnetic field. I placed a neodymium kitchen magnet (or two) on a blob of BluTak underneath and very close to the spindle. (I like my setups to be a bit messy - but reversible :-). My wires exit the arm relatively "straight" at the end of the tonearm proper, the magnet is on the opposite side of the bearing. The small round kitchen magnet has a magnetically conductive (steel?) "guiding" sleeve around the magnet that guides the back side pole to the front, so you have opposite poles in the center of the magnet vs. a circular opposite pole around. In my case it works "enough", so that the arm has no high Q lateral resonance. It's probably still slightly underdamped though. Which is IMO desirable as a trade-off. I don't have an alternative anymore, as my oil trough is leaking.
Hi Pegasus Good to hear from you. :^) The Verdier provides for Levitation AND Braking Action - and that is why I included the analogy. Everybody thinks about the Levitation but NO ONE discusses the braking action. 8^0
All I did was report Bruce’ findings. Not sure how he set it up. IMO - John should also try it for himself.
I still have the trough attached but the paddle is not connected because I do not need it.
Pegasus My wires exit the arm relatively "straight" at the end of the tonearm proper, the magnet is on the opposite side of the bearing.
Show us a picture of the wiring/magnet Pegasus.
John I would also like to see a picture of your modded Ibeam.
The magnet thing is pretty confusing. I don't know how to post pictures directly to the discussion, and I don't do the social media thing. So, I'll work on adding pics to my Audiogon identity? I'll have to work on that. Sorry. I'm not well versed in these things, but I'll geterdone tomorrow. John
Hi Chris, I'm about to take the plunge for Bruce's mag arm but thought I'd touch base with you first. Over the last month + I have increased air pressure, moved weights out and added springs on the beam. After each of these upgrades I heard a significant improvement in almost all parameters. While I realize everything is system dependent and subjective, can you share with me what I might expect to hear going from the aluminum arm to the mag arm. By the way I now have my system up on virtual systems. Thanks, Harry
the proper thing to do if I was in audiophile mode, would be to switch my mag for the aluminum with my MC and give you direct impressions in my room. That’s not going to happen for a couple of reasons. I don’t like to fool with carts - did you know I beheaded an XV1 once ? Also I did break my loom one time - can’t blame that one on the cat. It was a hard call to make to Gene at Take Five Audio - sending him my crippled loom. Oh...and also that Aluminum Gooseneck that I sourced from NZ ....is a really tight fit. Can be a b**tch to get off.
So...
The best any of us can do on these virtual forums where we cannot visit each others rooms due to distance is make an educated guess. This is unfortunate because you have a nice airy room - and I would love to hear music in it. No question the biggest factor is the room. I believe your VTA changes will be smoother (not as pronounced), and you will hear more of what is actually in the recording, due to less resonance, as the Mag wand handles your cart better. As part of the adjustment (and there will be adjustments !!) I would think you may also need to change the crossover setting on the sub I see in your room picture. Like I said earlier; there are many ET2 original owners here on this thread, who are playing MC with their aluminum wands - but they have had to modify their ET2 aluminum wands extensively. Hope that helps a bit.
********************** I like analogies. Sometimes analogies are good and hit home; sometimes not so much. Those that live in the Northern United States and Canada know the difference between summer tires, all season tires, and winter tires. If the arm tubes were tires. the Aluminum is for Summer, Carbon Fiber is All Season and the Mag is for Winter duty. Canadians in Ontario and Quebec provinces are now given discounts by their insurance companies if they are using Winter tires - during Winter :^) ....... We’re still getting ripped off.
*********************
Bruce’ ET2 manual is based on the original 2.0 tonearm. Aluminum Wand, Single leaf Spring - MM’s were popular.
IF....
If his tonearm did not get introduced same year as CD was introduced.
If vinyl sales continued in popularity.
If there was a stronger business need for it.
Then I believe Bruce would have come out with a revised ET 2.0 (2.5) owners manual Version 2. In it, he would definitely cover off the 2.5 version for MC carts, the three arm tubes and also the use of multiple leaf springs. Also Bruce does use direct single shot wiring as well - but IMO, due to its fragility, and the fact the person getting it needs to be anal about setup - I don’t think he would discuss it in the manual.
so some thoughts over coffee. sorry for the detail (coffee kicking in) and any spelling mistakes.
**********************
What frequency is your sub crossed over at Harry ? have you ever tried it in nearfield position ?
Good Morning Chris, Thanks for the detailed analysis. I like the analogy. I grew up in New England so I get it. I can even drive on snow! As you have no doubt gathered, even after nearly 30 years, I am still a little intimidated by my ET. I know it's not as fragile as it appears, however, I can't bring myself to atempt extensive mods. I once sheared off a stylus on a Lyra Clavis.
Agreed, on not being able to share listening experiences with the friends we make here on Audiogon. I live in very rural, Western N.C. My closest audiophile friend is my brother in law who is 4 hours away. I miss the sharing part of the hobby. I'd love to hear your number 1 room with those huge towers. I'll bet you can move some air with those woofers.
My sub is crossed over at about 45 - 50 hz, but I don't run the mains through the sub crossover. I run them full range. Canalis says they are only 3 db down at 39 cycles. I keep the sub volume dialed down quite a bit. I'm not looking for boom, boom, just a nice foundation. The sub is a Sunfire True that has enormous power but is not quite as tight as I would prefer. Been thinking about a Rel, but that's down the priority list. I did have to dial down the sub after my tweaks and once I got the VTA right.
Yes, I have a very large room but listen fairly near field (12 to 15 ft.) so as to maintain domestic tranquility. I.e. I use half the room.
John, Saw your system. Very nice, but be careful how you throw around the term "antiquated". Some of us are a LOT older than your equipment.😏 The beam does not look like balsa. What is it? Harry
ET2 Setups taking over the new systems category ...
Pegasus ! put up some pictures. Two is a couple. Three makes it official.
8^0
John - like Harry you have a nice airy room. Not familiar with those dipole speakers. I am a fan of dipoles. Not familiar with Harry's speakers either.
I gotta tell you. ...that is one long I beam you got there..... Can you provide the details on how you got it/made it - I think you said you sourced it from the hobby shop ?
I have done the test going in with the most weight closest to the bearing and hearing the bass resonance/distortion in my room. if I kept going further in Bruce told me I would actually bottom the bearing out.
I think you said earlier that going further out with your elongated I Beam - and it became detrimental to the music in your room ? The weight positioning in the 2nd pic looks similar to the furthest you can go on a stock I Beam - your distance must be more hard to tell. Interested to know what happened to the music to let you know you went too far out.
Now that I think about it, I have never asked Bruce why he chose the size of I beam he did. Maybe due to measurements; maybe so it fit on the table. probably a combination of both ?
Well Harry and Chris The I-beam is just a plastic "girder" you can get at most hobby stores. I just cut it to a reasonable length, removed the spring from a stock I-beam and slid and glued it into place on the girder. There are no tracking force gradations on the girder, but I didn't use those anyway. -I just set the weights to obtain my prescribed tracking force and wiggle from there by the sound. As to how far out to go, use the least weight possible for your cartridge, and move out until the base response starts to deteriorate. This might change with adding a spring or two to the I-beam. For instance, I started with just the weight that the other weights attach to and had that way out the beam. -No go. Had to add a weight and go from there further in on the beam. -Complicated, eh? Today, I received springs and I-beams from Bruce, but I think I'll stick with the long I-beam, and add a spring or two. -Sounds like two springs will work for my low compliance cartridge, but experimenting is half the fun. I use the term antique for my system because the amps, speakers, turntable, and arm are all 20 years old. They work well if you know how to maintain them. I've learned over the years to do all my own maintenance and mods. It's amazing what you can do with a soldering iron, voltmeter, and decibel meter (Radio shack and vintage). Thanks for looking at my humble system, John
scroll down 6 from the bottom. One can see the I Beams. Bruce did tell me if there was interest he could do a run on the longer I Beams. As I suspected the original ones were in part the length they are so they could fit under TT covers. Clue; he would of liked to have one more inch.
Hey Chris, You did some good research. I was fortunate to have a large hobby shop in my town, and just brought the original I-beam with me to compare sizes. A micrometer might be useful if you order online, or wait for Bruce's run. Yes, Bruce told me that he liked my modification, and admitted that sales were up since this thread was resurrected. He said that he had serious size constraints, based on the tables in production at the time, and would have made his I-beam longer if it weren't for this. I forgot to ask whether the carbon fiber made any difference, but I doubt it's critical. I'm going to experiment over the weekend with adding extra springs to my I-beam, without any damping fluid in the trough. John
I remember Frogman and Banquo363 trying longer beams - but they made them out of wood so they didn't work out. The I beam needs to live and breathe (resonate/vibrate) like the cart, and should be matched to the vibrating cart. More springs on the I Beam make it firmer less compliant. so match it to a less compliant cart. This is what makes the ET2 unique over all other tonearms. Put it another way all other tonearms are 2d, compared to the ET2 with this added dimension; becomes 3d. Pro reviewers never figured this part out; being able match this tonearm to any cart that exists.
Whatever the length of the I Beam ...
Physics and our childhood memories, say the absolute best teeter totter ride is when both friends are of equal or close to each other in weight; and BOTH are sitting on the seat. Moving the weight forward of the seat for one of them, to balance unequal weights, and the ride is never as good.
So whatever the length of the I Beam ... I would be setting up (cutting) the longer modded I beam so the weights rest at the end of the plank just like the cartridge on the armtube side.
Good memory, Chris. This was my post from 4+ (!) years ago:
++++ I have constructed an I beam (balsa wood) that uses a leaf spring from one of the regular ET I beams which allows me to to move the counterweights up to 6 inches from the spindle; although not the 7 inches that I implied. With my cartridges which are either medium compliance Vandenhuls or high compliance MM’s, the improvement in bass weight and detail is significant. One other way to experiment with moving the weight further from the spindle is by using the threaded brass weights on the threaded rod that secures the regular lead weights to the counterweight holder. This allows the weight to be further back, and effectively "extending" the I beam.
Speaking of the I beams, no one has mentioned the importance of experimenting with leaf springs of different compliances. I have three ET (plastic) I beams, each of a different compliance. The lower the compliance the more tightly focused the sound is. Higher compliance springs make the sound a little "bloomier", with an all around easier presentation. ++++
Since adding a pair of REL subs to my system I have revised my findings somewhat since, as has been pointed out, moving the weight back TOO MUCH can cause other problems. On balance, I love what the REL’s are doing for the sound, but with the extended I-beam I find it more difficult to integrate them in a way that sounds natural. I am currently not using it.
So glad to see all the recent activity on this thread. What a great tonearm this is! I never cease to be amazed at the genius behind this design and the fabulously natural sound that it yields. Chris should be commended for his excellent tutorials and advise. A couple of comments on recent discussions:
As was recently pointed out by Chris, as with the setup of a fine musical instrument, it’s all about resonances. With that in mind, I have found that a worthwhile setup detail is making sure that the bolts, adjustment and otherwise, and especially the bolts that secure the two end caps are not too tight which, if too tight, can actually deform the spindle and cause biding at the start and end of its trajectory in the manifold. But beyond that extreme what I am talking about (and I don’t think I am imagining this) is that when all the bolts are tightened "just enough" and with close to equal torque the sound seems to take on even more of that wonderful "this is what live music sounds like" quality that this arm gives like no other in my (limited) experience.
Chris, on a completely unrelated topic: you made me chuckle at the mention of your dog not being allowed downstairs. My beagle/lab shedding machine is not allowed in my studio, nor upstairs where the bedrooms are; although pet hair seems to find its way everywhere, even where the critters are not allowed. After being intrigued by these gizmos and not taking the plunge due to skepticism about whether they would actually work, we finally bought a (now two) robotic vacuums. It is not an exaggeration to say that they have been life changers. This one, which is actually one of the least expensive ones does an amazing job of keeping the floors where the pooch roams clean between full house cleanings, and consequently all other areas and surfaces stay noticeably cleaner as well. It was also a lot of fun watching Artie’s reaction to his new mechanical bud. Highly recommended. Regards.
Frogman re: Torquing of bolts. I own a few torque wrenches, big ones for auto + the mini torque wrenches we can use for this audio hobby. The issue I have with them is that the torque settings for these random bolts are meant for the nut/bolt, and not the part that they are holding in. The people who sell us these bolts have no idea what we are screwing them into. So along with what you were saying, there is this torque wrench in my head for this tonearm that has three settings - loose, snug and tight. I have never had anything go "loose" on the snug setting. But did crack the end cap many years ago on the tight setting. The most important bolt settings imo, are those that set the distance gap for the VTA bearing block.
*********************** re:Cleaning robot. I keep seeing these things in the flyers that come to the house. If I brought in that cleaning robot, turned it on and and let it go on our main floor I think I would have two different reactions, especially if a big purpose of the cleaning is to vacuum up the dog hairs. .
If my daughters RCA Victor dog "Lucky" was visiting, (half Mexican/half English) Chihuahua / Jack Russell mix. He wouldn't stop chasing and yapping at the thing. A very loving attention craving dog, but when he barks, he doesn't stop and it can get annoying. He also sheds like crazy but otherwise a good watch dog. Warns me when I am home alone, if the Kids and wife are within 200 feet from the house and approaching.
With Koaltar our black Lab, its the opposite reaction. He has not been running with me with over winter as I run on a treadmill, so he has put on a few pounds - probably gone from 76 to 80lbs. He would probably just lay in the middle of the floor and let the robot keep bouncing off of him like he does with Lucky. Oh the black hairs... and the main floor is a cream colored ceramic floor.
If one could put two Koaltars beside ones listening chair, you would have significant damping taking place. Maybe even enough to require a need to change out a leaf spring. :^)
The hobby shop has the foot long gleaming white I beams. Was trying to imagine what the cat would be thinking if she got a look at it.
Curious to found out how John's stock 2 spring I Beam, compares to his modded I beam using the Mag wand. Cheers
Hi Harry I wanted to touch on something you said earlier.
My sub is crossed over at about 45 - 50 hz, but I don’t run the mains through the sub crossover. I run them full range. Canalis says they are only 3 db down at 39 cycles. I keep the sub volume dialed down quite a bit. I’m not looking for boom, boom, just a nice foundation. The sub is a Sunfire True that has enormous power but is not quite as tight as I would prefer. Been thinking about a Rel, but that’s down the priority list. I did have to dial down the sub after my tweaks and once I got the VTA right.
I have the exact same objective in my room 2 Harry, meaning just filling in the bottom octave. I have My Quad 57’s running full off the Music Reference amp. Positioned in the room as they are in the system pic, they are good to about 55hz. I have two Dynaudio subs which kick in at 60hz. They receive a separate direct input from the preamp (happens to be an AI - no remote ! ) in that room.
Wanted to mention, more of a general comment from my experiences. I have spoken with a number of sub manufacturers over the years the earliest, many moons ago was Dr.Hsu, and the most recent Rythmik Audio, a little over a year ago about the use of one sub in a room. They have all told me the same thing and my own room setup in B prior to going to dual subs was one large one; my experiences confirm it as well.
For 2 channel music nearfield placement is best if crossing over low. The sub is positioned ....if and if the room, wife, boundaries permit it..... beside or behind your listening position. It may seem unorthodox but your sub will work at a fraction of the effort it needs when it is across the room. Just set the phase at 180. An easy way to determine if the phase is correct. Put on music with bass, put your hand on the nearfield sub - you can feel the sub pulse and determine if it is in sync with the bass you are hearing at your listening position with the main speakers bass. very obvious with this technique - if it is out of phase.
When I had one sub in that room, and had people over, I would camouflage the nearfield sub and have them tell me where the bass notes were coming from. They would point to some spot over behind the Quad speakers. They found it hilarious when I told them the notes were coming from the box that their glass was resting on, next to them.
Having brought in the Dynaudio subs I will say that anyone that is thinking of using two subs across a good sized room - I would for myself insist in making sure the sub design comes with a remote for the different controls especially Db gain. Music even within the same genres is mastered at varying gain levels of bass. The subs I use have 4 presets that can be used. Cheers Chris
Hi Chris and Harry, I worked on the mods to the arm yesterday, but had to leave for dinner with the family before listening. -That's today, and I'll get back about my impressions later on. I found out that the spring I've been using is a double, and was worried about using a shorter I-beam, as I also traded in my original magnesium arm for an updated one from Bruce which is heavier. -Got a good deal by the way! So, I decided to try adding a third spring to my homebrew I-beam, my cartridge being fairly low compliance and mc. I had a problem with the new wand. The phono connectors are slightly loose. -They slide a bit. Should I pinch them down to get them tighter? I don't want to crush these little connectors, because that's happened before with a different wand and connectors. -A big mess to fix. -On to woofers. My Wisdom speaker system uses two woofer cabinets crossed over at 120hz. I suppose that because they cross over so high, the designer recommends placing the front face of each one even with the dipole line sources. One advantage with the electronic crossover is that I can adjust the volume at the lower end (20 hz and below), the volume at the crossover point, and the output of the woofer and dipoles separately. This is handy on certain recordings, but no remote control of any of this; just 4 attenuators per channel. Cheers and thanks in advance for comments and sage advice, John
I'm with you. I was flattered to hear I test for best phase adjustment like you do. Hand on sub driver while listening to bass passages. I know that below a certain frequency (probably 60 to 75 hz) sound is almost directionless. Well, the sound is not directionless but our ear/brain interface is unable to determine direction. For this reason, crossed over low enough, one can place a sub just about anywhere without it calling attention to its location.
The room/wife consideratons are, however, quite another issue. For me to place my sub beside or behind my listening sofa would entail running cables under carpet which gets walked on (not good) or be ugly. ("Do you really need those wires running across the room?").
As you, no doubt saw from my system pictures, my Sunfire sub is behind my left main speaker. It has both an active and passive radiator. The active faces inward, across the front wall and toward the center and the passive points in the opposite direction. When setting it up I was surprised that best response is 180 deg. out of phase. My sub has a variable phase setting from 0 to 180. For a while I thought 90 deg. was best but 180 is stronger.
Connections are from my power amp to the high level inputs on the sub. This for two reasons: I have read that this setup is best for matching subs to mains, and I only have one set of outputs on my preamp. Just for comparison, I tried a Y connection at the power amp inputs to the low level inputs on the sub but for some reason this resulted in a very ugly hum. Either the pre or power amp did not like this setup.
I am not perceiving an issue with integrating the sub with the mains, I would just like it to be a little tighter. I think this is simply an issue with the quality of the sub itself. I think Bob Carver uses a class D amp in his subs and while the Sunfire True Sub is no slouch it is certainly not the caliber of my Canalis Cambrias. Speaking of which, I think you mentioned in a prior post you were not familiar with the Cambrias. The Canalis speakers are a product of Spiral Groove. They are designed by Joachim Gerhard who used to manufacture the German Sonics Alegra speakers. Joachim has now joined Alan Perkins at Spiral Groove. The Canalis speakers are virtually the same as Joachim's Sonics speakers but manufactured from bamboo plywood with tweaks to the crossovers. You can see the whole Canalis line here: http://www.canalisloudspeakers.com/loudspeakers.php
The Sunfire was originally purchased for my home theater back when I had a Vandersteen 2W for the music system. For some inexplicable reason I sold the Vandy woofer. One of my larger buy/sell mistakes. The 2W's mate very well with monitors and small towers.
Two of my obsessions in listening are imaging and detail. I have found that monitors and narrow tower speakers do this best. The Cambrias are basically a couple of monitors in a tall box. The drawback is, of course, they don't move quite enough air. Hence my use of the sub.
All things considered, I think my best setup would be two small to medium size subs. I've been looking at the Rel T5i an T7i. The 5's are a little short on power but given my listening habits they may be enough. They probably would not work for your large orchestral productions, but then you always have room A for that.
PS to my above post: It seems that the spindle on the ET-2 is anodized aluminum. I held a magnet to it and found NO attraction. Duh! So, how does mounting a cabinet magnet under the spindle provide any appreciable damping? Enquiring minds want to know. Sorry, John
John, to remove leads I use a tiny fine slot screwdriver. I insert into the tiny opening between the lead and cartridge prong and rotate slowly. Lead will come loose. To close leads that have opened I insert a round wood toothpick at the opening I want squeeze gently with pliers. After learning how Frogman removes dimples from dome tweeters, I would be very interested to know how he does cart lead fix. 8^0
PS to my above post: It seems that the spindle on the ET-2 is anodized aluminum. I held a magnet to it and found NO attraction. Duh! So, how does mounting a cabinet magnet under the spindle provide any appreciable damping? Enquiring minds want to know.
that’s a question for Pegasus and I believe Dover also who used a fridge magnet. A picture is worth a thousand words !
using the best AudioGon Draw here is how I set it up.
x...0....x
x’s represent magnets - same poles facing one another 0 is the exiting spindle.
I need to go do some boat cleaning. can post a pic later of how I experimented with the magnetic damping, before it was abandoned. but I warn ahead time .....this is heading into that Audiophile dark area.....for reasons posted previously.
*****
Also Harry - I’d like to discuss the bass further, and I am very curious about Johns speaker setup.
fwiw - the Vandy sub was crossed off my list because it requires you go through their crossover first and then to your mains. Was not going to happen in my room..
So just a question. Bass waves are slower than all the others. So why do people put subs X feet behind their mid and tweeter drivers ? Just asking.
If I was you Harry I would be very tempted just "temporarily", to set up in near field for one hour - just to hear what was possible with one sub. Then negotiate with the wife later. 8^0 hah hah
a) regarding wiring: I have to try again to photograph - the lighting makes pictures difficult... patience :-) b) Fridge magnets & damping: Drop a circular magnet into a vertical copper tube. An enlightening sight - the magnet centers itself and *creeps* down very slowly instead of passing quickly! Magnetic attraction is needed for static force only or for DC so to say. With movement or "AC" the magnet induces a current into a close conductor (for which alu is moderately good), which creates a counter field, ie. a damping action. OK :-)
Hey Pegasus, I'd really like to see a picture as well. I don't understand the placement of or type of magnets you describe, but would really like to try this tweak. To everyone: I solved the loose cartridge connector problem, A pair of hemostats is a useful thing to have. -Just the right amount of squeeze tightens the connectors on the pins.
that is a 2.5 spindle. You can tell its a 2.5 because the end cap does not overlap but sits on an insert that makes it flush with the spindle. Bruce also tried this experiment with the strongest neodymium magnets.
Pegasus feel free to email your pic to me if you like.
So just a question. Bass waves are slower than all the others. So why do people put subs X feet behind their mid and tweeter drivers ? Just asking.
If I was you Harry I would be very tempted just "temporarily", to set up in near field for one hour - just to hear what was possible with one sub.
I’m not exactly shure what this would mean? More upfront placement = faster bass? Placement is a question of "allowable" phase angles between drivers caused by offset drivers (specially in distance to the listener). As long as this offset phase angle is not far off, there is no "real" problem. Bass waves travel at the same speed as any acoustic wave in air, but have longer wavelengths, so offset distances in the low bass can be considerable without being audible. Usually it’s said to be desirable to be below 90 degree - I’d keep it lower, to be on the safe side in the cutoff region where the subwoofer is still emitting considerable upper bass levels. At 40 Hertz xo this would still be 67cm for a quite tight max. 30 degree difference. This results in an allowable 120 degree two octaves above, at 160Hz, at eg. -24dB (for 12 dB/oct.) But I agree, that close-field placement is the preferable "error", because a) the excursion / level of the subwoofer can be considerably lower, b) the decrease of room reverberation level relative to the direct sound level should reduce audible room resonances & bass colorations = c) the modification of the subs frequency response by room resonances drops an order of magnitude. But... it works only if there is no spurious midrange energy exiting reflex tubes or coming from the driver. Still - the lower sub levels reduce distortion and "box talk" & "cone cry", both help.
Chris & Everyone, Will respond to Chris and his subwoofer discussion later. Right now I have a crisis. While listening tonight I was hearing dreaded rumble in quiet passages. Upon investigation I discovered the shaft on my stand alone motor assembly for the VPI HW-19 was so loose it was actually wobbling. And we all know what a warbling shaft can cause - Rumble!
My SAMA is the original in the round silver base not the later one with beveled corners. Been searching Internet and all places that had it appear out of stock. I don't think VPI makes this SAMA any more. Does anyone know if the motor assembly can be removed from the base and replaced and, if so where the replacement motor can be purchased? Any suggestions will be appreciated. Thanks, Harry
"First, tighten the pulley on the SAMA (there should be a grub set screw on the pulley collar). This should stop the wobble."
Not saying this is your problem but check.
and other than that, if the shaft is loose but still works and the wobbling is not caused by the SAMA feet; then I would be tempted, to remove the top screws and have a look inside. If the shaft is on a type of frame holding it up, one of the frame feet or frame feet washer if one even exists may need replacing.
Just giving ideas. long time since I had the hw19 mk4.
Chris, I wish I could give you a more interesting 😉 description of how I remove tonearm cartridge leads from a cartridge, but my method is exactly like yours. Only thing I would add is that the tiniest amount of Deoxit helps keep the connection lubed and easier to separate while presumably also helping conductivity. Your use of a toothpick is also my method of expanding clips that are too tight due to overcrimping. As you know, when crimping the clips in order to make the connection tighter it is all to easy to crimp it in a way that the clip loses round; this would most likely decrease the number of contact points between the clip and cartridge prong. I took a small needle nose pliers with serrated "teeth" and by using a small thin round hobby file I made the space between the "teeth" and on both sides just wide and deep enough to cradle the cartridge clip; this allows crimping with equal pressure along the entire length of the clip without deforming it; and I do this with the toothpick in the clip to help keep round and to prevent overcrimping. Re subwoofers:
In my experience, you are exactly correct re near field placement. My pair of REL’s sit on either side of my two-person listening couch. I set the xover point as low as possible; usually at 28hz with occasional adjustments of a couple of hz one way or the other depending on the recording. I find that anything much higher than that thickens the sound in the midrange unnaturally and what I am looking for, more than anything, is not necessarily more obvious bass weight, but the concert hall (and studio) ambient information that is found in that frequency range. I also find that the midrange, independent of the presence of obvious bass information, takes on added purity and density when the system can reproduce the lowest frequencies. A controversial topic and not entirely understood (certainly not by me), but just as there exists the overtone series in music, we have undertones or subharmonic series that factors into all this. For instance, a recording of a woodwind choir playing in a range well above a subwoofer’s xover point will sound noticeably fuller and with more tonal density (as in live music) with the subwoofer on than with it off; importantly, and as Pegasus points out, eventhough there is no spurious midrange information being reproduced by the subwoofer. Re inverting phase setting: I think whistling 😚. One can whistle while blowing air out or by sucking air in. To me, the correct phase setting sounds like the bass is being projected out (as it should be) as opposed to sounding like it is being sucked in. The latter, as well as generally sounding weaker in volume, detracts from the contribution of the bass instruments in musical terms. I like your hand on the woofer cabinet method. Btw, while I generally agree that directionality is not a major issue with subwoofers, before I bought a second REL, I found that with a single sub "up-front" with the main speakers sometimes center images would subtly "lean" in the direction of where the sub was placed (if to one side or the other); again, whether there was obvious bass information or not. Regards.
Hello Chris, Good audiophile day here in the Carolinas. Crisis over. I tore down the VPI to more closely inspect the shaft and pulley on the SAMA. My SAMA is a very early version which included a small flywheel. It is like a very fat stainless steel washer that slides down over the pulley and rests on a flange at the bottom of the pulley, just above the motor housing. It is not attached to anything but just sits on the flange. I noticed that the flywheel was wobbling far more than the pulley/shaft. In discussions with a former dealer friend of mine in Florida he advised that the flywheel only came with very early versions of the SAMA and VPI had abandoned it because they found it more detrimental than helpful.
So.......I reassembled the table and tried it without the flywheel. Voila, rumble and speaker pumping all but gone. It's not 100% but pretty close. I'll need a new motor someday but it is certainly not critical. Incidentally, I had the same thought regarding a loose set screw on the pulley. That is why I tore down the table. Unfortunately, this version of SAMA has no pulley set screw but is evidently pressure fitted over the motor shaft.
Chapter 2:. Santa Clause arrived today with my magnesium arm wand. I installed it and redid setup. I'm only using the one big weight in addition to the one to which the other weights attach. Initially one weight was not enough to get proper tracking force even at the very end of the plank. Rather than add weight I turned the weight bracket around so the weight barrack screw points out instead of in. Unfortunately, I installed the new wand right after solving the rumble problem so I'm not sure which improvements are attributable to which tweak but, midrange seems a little warmer, bass tighter, separate instruments seem better defined and upper end smother but no less extended. I don't have 20 foot wide pianos or drummers with a 15 foot wingspan. Finally, the soundstage seems a little deeper.
Next time wife is away for a few hours I'm going to try the near field sub placement. More on subs later. Cheers, Harry
The newer Magnesium wand is definitely heavier, and precluded my using a stock I-beam. In the final listen, I had to conclude that two springs work best in my setup, with two little damping pads removed, allowing freer movement. Bruce said I didn't need them. My cartridge is supposedly best with the top surface parallel to the record surface. This is hard to eyeball, especially when the arm wand looks parallel and the cartridge looks tilted back. Does anyone know if, when the arm is parallel to the record, the cartridge is parallel as well? I mean is this a good starting point for setting VTA? My eyes are old and parallax gets the best of my judgement. Thanks, John
What started me thinking about the issue of how much to (not) torque down on bolts/screws was when I realized that I had inadvertently compressed and deformed one of my wands’ "head shell" to the point that the cartridge would no longer be "parallel to the record surface"; which I believe, in theory, it should be. Obviously, that is still no guarantee of intended VTA.
Thanks frogman, I don't overtighten my cartridge screws, and my wand is spanking new. So, can I assume that if the wand is parallel to the record, the cartridge top is as well? I just need a starting point. John
There is 1) manifold air bearing height and 2) armwand height. 3) Then the Cart.
That’s how I have done it. When I was on that slippery slope with the turntables I must have mounted the tonearm; well you know I don’t know how many times on different tables. Different height platters and armboards. Sometimes no armboard, but separate armpods instead. So what I do.
1) Air Bearing height The inscribed line on the middle of the manifold is the guide for proper vertical height of the air bearing spindle. With the VTA range in the middle raise/lower post height to try to get as close to possible to having the record surface even with the inscribed line in the manifold.
2) Armwand height If your armwand height does not allow you to mount your cart properly, raise/lower the armwand height. The stock joint (gooseneck) allows for lowering or raising the armwand to get parallel. I lost this adjustment with the Aluminum Gooseneck I got from NZ. The upgraded Aluminum Joint that Bruce sells now still retains this adjustment.
3) Cart This should get you in the ball park with being parallel, and use the VTA to fine tune by ear. Now due to how complicated the vinyl set up is, (so many variables) , I always set up Digital first, get it working right, then I unleash the vinyl and see how close I got. This is what I have done in the past going by memory.
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A couple updates.
I struck out today at the hobby shop on trying to get some kitty attracting foot long I Beams. 8^0 They looked really good on the internet link I posted but were way to thin and flimsy in person.
I also asked Bruce in the ideal situation how long should the I beam be. He told me shorter than a foot and as close as possible to the length of the armwand. This supports the teeter totter analogy I used earlier. I told him to consider doing a run on the longer I Beams as they are fairly inexpensive even with our Canadian dollar :^( and that there would probably be people interested when they found out.
I’m not exactly shure what this would mean? More upfront placement = faster bass?
No not faster but bass that when you hear it, is not bass that has bounced off your room walls - God only knows how many times (being sarcastic) before it finally reaches the listeners ears.
So in reading further into your post. you said.
But I agree, that close-field placement is the preferable "error", because a) the excursion / level of the subwoofer can be considerably lower, b) the decrease of room reverberation level relative to the direct sound level should reduce audible room resonances & bass colorations = c) the modification of the subs frequency response by room resonances drops an order of magnitude.
Yes - and all of these benefits include the sub lasting longer ! You know I consider subs disposable items. When they fail - good luck getting the amp and electronics out of the good ones as it has to be glued in there good with all the vibrations. In fact I won't say which manufacturer, but a very well respected one - told a friend when his failed "we can't repair" but, "we will sell you a new one" 8^0 .
All it takes is one 22 year old blasting XXXXX music over a period of time - that sub will indeed fail sooner. Let me know if you wanna hear some funny stories about my 22 year old male with his two JL Audio subs under the back bench seat of his Honda Ridgeline ? his truck has 350,000 kilometers. Still no rattles.
Thanks for the advice, Chris Unfortunately, I have the aluminum joint as well, and it is missing the top mounting hole, making it impossible to get the manifold on plane with the platter and the tonearm level at the same time. I.E. I have to mount the manifold higher to get even close to a level wand. It's just not a perfect tonearm from that standpoint. One size doesn't fit all cartridges. I really wish the aluminum joint had the third mounting hole at the top, but I'm not willing to drill and tap it. Then again there's a machine shop up the street..... John
John, didn’t know the top hole was missing on the new aluminum joint. Did Bruce explain why ? so I got curious and lined up my previous CF joint which was set on the top hole with my aluminum joint from NZ. they are the same by eyeballing. So it was made with the top hole dimension.
Chris, I don't know why I got one with only the two mounting holes. I assumed that all the new aluminum joints came that way. This one is straight from Bruce. So, I never told Bruce about it. Maybe I got one from the bottom of the barrel. He did give me a discount, however. I just might email him about that. -John
John I just checked his website and the new joint pic does indeed show two holes. well - just me, but if I am mounting a 4 figure cart on there and I need the top hole, I am getting the joint with the top hole drilled. this is very good info for others glad we discussed it. You know Bruce, he will fix it for you.
Thanks for that, Chris. I got it pretty close. I listened tonight and got blown away by the bass and most everything else. I'm a happy camper at present. It's set up properly, and I probably wasn't careful and patient enough with that in the past. I'm not sure I want to mess with it any more. I'll probably stick with the WISA pumps and 7psi, and not screw with the wire loom. I'm using the very thin copper litz wire that Bruce rewired my spindle with. It's set up with very little effect on the balance of the arm. The ET-2 is a finicky thing, sometimes a PIA, and I understand why some people can't deal with it and write it off immediately. I guess the people in this discussion understand what a piece of high tech it is, and how rewarding it is to get it right. -John
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