Well I guess it's time for me to stop lurking and ask some questions. I've enjoyed my ET2 for 25 years or more and rediscovered this thread last night. I have a SOTA nova table with cosmos armboard made for the ET2. This has metal contact points for the base tripod and works well. I recently upgraded to the aluminum base, joint and VTA display. Running two WISA pumps out of phase and getting 7psi on my pressure gauge, with two diy surge tanks in series, and a small surge tank made from a plastic gas tank for R/C planes located very close to the arm.
This last tweak hasn't been mentioned here but I think it helps. My I-beam is from the hobby store as well (twice the usual length) and allows me to place very little weight way out the beam. (There are limits I discovered.) My manifold is the high pressure one, tried with a shop vac and pressure regulator up to 30 psi, but the quieter background wasn't worth the noise in the basement. So, I'm back to the WISA's now. My cartridge is the Lyra Kleos recently replacing a still functioning 20 y/o Audioquest 7000 NSX. Arm is the magnesium one.
I've learned a lot in catching up on this thread and really appreciate the dedication and enthusiasm of this group for the ET-2. -I thought I was the last fanatic out there.
My plan is to try the double and/or triple leaf springs, maybe go for the Alita pump and start using the regulator again.
I would also like to try the direct wiring harness, but don't know where to look for one. Any links available?
Thanks for a great discussion and cheers,
John |
There's a picture of the VTA gauge on the ET site. Go there-products-ET2.5-VTA gauge.
Taylor House is in Sherrils Ford outside of Charlotte. I think Robert is still in business, but haven't called him in a while. I bought most of my analog gear from him.
John |
Hey Harry,
I found that it's easiest to set VTA with the Lyra cartridges by starting with the top of the cartridge parallel to the record surface and wiggle up and down from there by ear. -The little gauge that Bruce sells helps with very small adjustments and only $80.
Did you ever deal with Taylor House up in NC?
Regards and thanks for reading my post,
John |
I've seen the AQ7000 for sale for $300, and I couldn't let it go for that. I have an interesting story about that cartridge. After a few years use, the stylus went missing from the cantilever. -Don't know what happened, but when I let AQ know about it, they offered to send me their demonstrator which was barely used from their demo room in exchange for my worthless mess. I respect that company greatly for that. Anyway, it's my backup, and I have trouble hearing an improvement with my Lyra Kleos. You know that Jon Carr designed both. So, sorry no interest here.
I have an Alita pump on order and will report back my impressions.
Cheers,
John |
Hey Harry,
I gave up the dust cover a long time ago, as my I-beam is too long to fit under it.
I hope you don't play lp's with the cover in place, but you probably already knew that the cover ruins the sq of the table.
By the way, I used to "moonlite" in Mooresville on weekends. -nice area.
John |
Hey again,
I was told by a dealer that the suspension on the 20y/o AQ7000 NSX was probably shot and that it would tear up my LP's. That's why I bought the Kleos. Was this bad info, myth, sales pitch or what? Do suspensions really wear out even when the cartridge is not being used very much?
Any answers from anyone in this group greatly appreciated.
I think that the compliance on the Kleos is similar to the AQ7000.
John |
Hi Chris,
Thanks for your thorough answer.
In fact, I've already replaced the AQ 7000 with the
Kleos, and it is now my backup just in case of disaster. Luckily I have no cats, the kids are grown, and if I ever get some housekeeping, they will not be allowed in my listening room.
I looked at the link for a tonearm cable as well as yours. This would be my last upgrade. I like to have something to look forward to. Eh?
Cheers,
John |
Thanks analogluvr,
I spoke to Bruce Thigpen yesterday about a number of things and was told that the Alita pump will not produce enough pressure for high pressure manifolds such as mine. The WISA's are still best for my rig unless I want a noisy shop pump or that monstrous dental pump. -Over the top and also noisy?
Could someone explain how to set up that magnetic damping mechanism to replace the trough? I haven't used the trough in years, as I don't see how you would horizontally balance the arm with fluid in the trough. I think the bottom end of the FR would benefit from some kind of damping.
Thanks for anyone's help on this,
John
|
The magnet thing is pretty confusing. I don't know how to post pictures directly to the discussion, and I don't do the social media thing. So, I'll work on adding pics to my Audiogon identity? I'll have to work on that. Sorry. I'm not well versed in these things, but I'll geterdone tomorrow.
John |
OK,
So I posted my system in virtual systems with pics of the modified ET-2 I-beam.
Have a look if you care to see a lot of antiques.
-John |
Well Harry and Chris
The I-beam is just a plastic "girder" you can get at most hobby stores. I just cut it to a reasonable length, removed the spring from a stock I-beam and slid and glued it into place on the girder. There are no tracking force gradations on the girder, but I didn't use those anyway. -I just set the weights to obtain my prescribed tracking force and wiggle from there by the sound.
As to how far out to go, use the least weight possible for your cartridge, and move out until the base response starts to deteriorate. This might change with adding a spring or two to the I-beam. For instance, I started with just the weight that the other weights attach to and had that way out the beam. -No go. Had to add a weight and go from there further in on the beam. -Complicated, eh?
Today, I received springs and I-beams from Bruce, but I think I'll stick with the long I-beam, and add a spring or two. -Sounds like two springs will work for my low compliance cartridge, but experimenting is half the fun.
I use the term antique for my system because the amps, speakers, turntable, and arm are all 20 years old. They work well if you know how to maintain them. I've
learned over the years to do all my own maintenance and mods. It's amazing what you can do with a soldering iron, voltmeter, and decibel meter (Radio shack and vintage).
Thanks for looking at my humble system,
John
|
Hey Chris,
You did some good research.
I was fortunate to have a large hobby shop in my town, and just brought the original I-beam with me to compare sizes. A micrometer might be useful if you order online, or wait for Bruce's run.
Yes, Bruce told me that he liked my modification, and admitted that sales were up since this thread was resurrected. He said that he had serious size constraints, based on the tables in production at the time, and would have made his I-beam longer if it weren't for this.
I forgot to ask whether the carbon fiber made any difference, but I doubt it's critical.
I'm going to experiment over the weekend with adding extra springs to my I-beam,
without any damping fluid in the trough.
John |
PS to my above post: It seems that the spindle on the ET-2 is anodized aluminum.
I held a magnet to it and found NO attraction. Duh! So, how does mounting a cabinet magnet under the spindle provide any appreciable damping?
Enquiring minds want to know.
Sorry,
John |
Hi Chris and Harry,
I worked on the mods to the arm yesterday, but had to leave for dinner with the family before listening. -That's today, and I'll get back about my impressions later on.
I found out that the spring I've been using is a double, and was worried about using a shorter I-beam, as I also traded in my original magnesium arm for an updated one from Bruce which is heavier. -Got a good deal by the way!
So, I decided to try adding a third spring to my homebrew I-beam, my cartridge being fairly low compliance and mc.
I had a problem with the new wand. The phono connectors are slightly loose. -They slide a bit. Should I pinch them down to get them tighter? I don't want to crush these little connectors, because that's happened before with a different wand and connectors. -A big mess to fix.
-On to woofers. My Wisdom speaker system uses two woofer cabinets crossed over at 120hz. I suppose that because they cross over so high, the designer recommends placing the front face of each one even with the dipole line sources.
One advantage with the electronic crossover is that I can adjust the volume at the lower end (20 hz and below), the volume at the crossover point, and the output of the woofer and dipoles separately. This is handy on certain recordings, but no remote control of any of this; just 4 attenuators per channel.
Cheers and thanks in advance for comments and sage advice,
John
|
Hey Pegasus,
I'd really like to see a picture as well. I don't understand the placement of or type of magnets you describe, but would really like to try this tweak.
To everyone: I solved the loose cartridge connector problem, A pair of hemostats is a useful thing to have. -Just the right amount of squeeze tightens the connectors on the pins. |
The newer Magnesium wand is definitely heavier, and precluded my using a stock I-beam. In the final listen, I had to conclude that two springs work best in my setup, with two little damping pads removed, allowing freer movement. Bruce said I didn't need them.
My cartridge is supposedly best with the top surface parallel to the record surface. This is hard to eyeball, especially when the arm wand looks parallel and the cartridge looks tilted back. Does anyone know if, when the arm is parallel to the record, the cartridge is parallel as well? I mean is this a good starting point for setting VTA? My eyes are old and parallax gets the best of my judgement.
Thanks,
John |
Chris,
I don't know why I got one with only the two mounting holes. I assumed that all the new aluminum joints came that way. This one is straight from Bruce.
So, I never told Bruce about it. Maybe I got one from the bottom of the barrel. He did give me a discount, however.
I just might email him about that.
-John |
Thanks frogman,
I don't overtighten my cartridge screws, and my wand is spanking new.
So, can I assume that if the wand is parallel to the record, the cartridge top is as well? I just need a starting point.
John
|
Thanks for the advice, Chris
Unfortunately, I have the aluminum joint as well, and it is missing the top mounting hole, making it impossible to get the manifold on plane with the platter and the tonearm level at the same time. I.E. I have to mount the manifold higher to get even close to a level wand. It's just not a perfect tonearm from that standpoint.
One size doesn't fit all cartridges. I really wish the aluminum joint had the third mounting hole at the top, but I'm not willing to drill and tap it. Then again there's a machine shop up the street.....
John |
Hey Harry,
I wish that I could help more but I'm not that familiar with the VPI tables. In my case, I have the scribe line on the manifold just .5 cm above the platter. I think that this might be close enough. I think you should first put the VTA adjustment in the center of its range. Then adjust the attachment of the manifold to the base to put the scribed line even with the platter or close. At that point, if the arm and top of the cartridge are not parallel to the platter, I would raise or lower the manifold attachment to the base. I think that this step is least critical.
You want the arm and cartridge to be parallel to the platter or record surface with some adjustment left on the VTA adjustment. You don't want the adjustment all the way up or down.
If your armboard is wooden, you could add height with a matching piece of stock of suitable thickness. If it's metal, which is better, get a metal piece of suitable thickness cut and attach it with screws.
I'll bet that Bruce has an answer for you. He's pretty quick to answer emails.
These arms can really be a PIA as I said but don't give up on the Lyra cartridge. You can work it out.
Good luck,
John |
Thanks for that, Chris.
I got it pretty close. I listened tonight and got blown away by the bass and most everything else.
I'm a happy camper at present. It's set up properly, and I probably wasn't careful and patient enough with that in the past. I'm not sure I want to mess with it any more. I'll probably stick with the WISA pumps and 7psi, and not screw with the wire loom. I'm using the very thin copper litz wire that Bruce rewired my spindle with. It's set up with very little effect on the balance of the arm.
The ET-2 is a finicky thing, sometimes a PIA, and I understand why some people can't deal with it and write it off immediately.
I guess the people in this discussion understand what a piece of high tech it is, and how rewarding it is to get it right.
-John |
-Lots of choices here. I'm not the expert on this, but if I owned the VPI table, I would call VPI and get a thicker armboard -metal if there is one. The adjustment feet on the base tend to dig into wood and loosen over time. On my SOTA, the armboard is a aluminum acrylic laminate with metal adjustable pods where the base feet are located. Too much info, huh?
John |
I don't believe that Bruce's aluminum base will do the trick. It's just a thin metal plate which you put between the armboard and ET-2 base, to prevent the feet of the base from digging into a wooden armboard. I vote for a new thicker metal armboard by hook or crook.
John |
I wouldn't have thought you could gain a lot of height from longer spikes, but Bruce knows best.
I emailed him about the joint with only two mounting holes, and asked if getting the manifold even with the platter was critical.
-No response as yet.
John |
We audiophiles all have our graveyard for old or unused equipment. I, too, still have a Tice clock, a box of various footers, (sorbothane, black diamond racing cones,Walker valid points with lead pucks, the original mod squad tiptoes, Michael Green tuning points) various interconnects and speaker cables dating from 1980's or later, electrical parts and connectors, various capacitors, wire bundles, ic's, circuit board material, tubes, which are still good but replaced with "designers." My favorite piece, now sold, was an ancient 841L EAR preamp I bought as "trash" from a local dealer for $200 because of a bad power switch and power light. -Both replaced for nothing and after years of use and storage, sold for $900. Still on the shelf is an ARC BL-1 which converts SE signals to balanced. My dealer told me to never sell it!
I could go on, but you get the picture.
By the way, Harry, if you don't have the aluminum base, get Bruce to send you one. -Very worthwhile.
John |
Hey Harry,
I'm not sure that a piece of godawful sorbothane between armboards would be good. Some areas are meant to be rigid. Then again maybe harmonics would not be crushed by doing this with the VPI? I would check with Harry Weisfeld before doing anything like that. -Just my 2 cents.
John
|
Well Harry,
There you have it. I wouldn't argue with freebies, but YMMV.
What a great resource this thread has been!
Cheers,
John |
I guess I'm not sensitive about those terms, but I did get a bit hurt when someone, a young know-it-all, referred to me as "old school."
Experience helps. I've stepped in most of the potholes already. Some people have a long way to go to catch up with me. |
Harry, I can't remember if you have the aluminum base and whether the three points of the base are on wood or metal. The points can dig into a nonmetal armboard throwing it out of level when you change the VTA. -Just a hint.
John |
Thanks a lot Chris,
Now I have something else to worry about with this arm. Could you kindly elaborate on the gap between the manifold housing and VTA adjuster? Should the gap be the same at all 4 bolt positions or what? I thought that they simply adjusted the stiffness of the VTA mechanism, and had nothing to do with the arm's geometry. -Simplistic thinking on my part, huh?
Thanks, and g-day
John |
Hey Harry,
Your explanation is very helpful. I'm not sure I have an issue with this as I've never messed with the top two bolts out of fear. The manual just says to adjust the bottom two. However, as I see that pic from Chris, the gap gauge he is using says .02 mm, and not inches. Am I reading it wrong with my bad eyes, or did you make a mistake on that info? That's a considerable difference! -smiles.
John |
Thanks Harry,
I still think you should get an aluminum base. It's much more rigid and Bruce will cut you a good deal. After I got mine, it took me six mos to change it out, because you almost have to start from scratch, setting the arm back up. I didn't want to do the work at the time.
Cheers,
John |
Lyra recommends between 90ohms and 47Kohms for your cart. I really think you would benefit from somewhere in between, especially if you're trying to improve your bass. The bass will improve while the treble gets less strident as you decrease the load. (going from 47K on down) You would appreciate it since you've got the arm dialed in. Can you sling solder? I would ask Ken where to solder in some loads. He has no doubt helped other owners of his fine preamp with the same issue. It's a very common problem for vinyl fanatics.
Sorry for meddling, but just trying to help, since you're trying to get the max out of your setup.
|
Hey Harry,
I'm happy as well that you're enjoying the arm. By the way what loading are you using on the Lyra Delos cartridge? I'm at 100 ohms with the Lyra Kleos, but using some pretty low capacitance pure silver interconnect (old AQ diamond X2) from the junction box to my phono preamp ( total capacitance 60 pf using Bruce's standard harness). -Lyra states their cartridges don't do well with high capacitance cable. So. I'm trying to keep it as low as possible. At 100 ohms, the base is incredible and vibes come thru perfectly.
Regards,
John |
Hey Harry,
I asked what load you were using on the Delos because my Kleos is very similar.
I found 100 ohms worked best for me. Very much higher made the highs get a touch strident. What have you found? It was easy to switch loads with the ARC ph-5 on the fly with the remote, and I could tell instantly which was best.
John |
Hey Harry,
I know that resistors aren't directional. I would check the type of resistors in the original CAT plugs, and buy the same quality. You probably need metal film resistors (1/2 -1 watt) 1% tolerance. Definitely 100 ohms and if you have enough plugs maybe a 500 and a 1000ohm resistor set. I usually buy 5-10 for each value, and measure each set with an ohm meter, -digital if you have one. Match up pairs with closest val;ues for each set. Buy them from Mouser electronics on line. They are very cheap, and shipping will be most of the cost. That's why you buy more than you need. If CAT uses Vishay resistors, I would buy that brand, but probably not.
By the way, can you solder, and do you have any silver solder? You can get silver solder from "Michael Percy" on line. Google him.
Hey Chris,
The Lyra cartridges sound a bit bright and lack bass at 47K. I hear a real improvement in freq response with lower values. My ARC ph-5 has values of 47K 1K, 500, 200, and 100 ohms. I use 100.
-John
|
Hi Chris,
I checked with Bruce about the gap between the VTA mechanism and whatever.
He said "
The gap does not need to the same between the VTA shaft bearing blocks and the manifold housing. The four screws should not be torqued down to close the gap, the average should usually be about.02 to about .06 inches. If the VTA mechanism is working correctly, the torque on those four screws should adjust the stiffness of the motion of the VTA mechanism and not tightened to the point that it stops."
Just thought everyone ought to know his opinion.
-John |
It's too bad that audiophiles abandoned bass, midrange, and treble controls in the interest of fidelity to the source. It's also too bad that many master recordings can stand a bit of tweaking. I liked my old Marantz receiver just fine for this, but someone talked me out of it!
John |
Chris,Harry, and all,
I have to amend my thoughts on cartridge loading. I tried 47K over the weekend and cymbals did seem to shimmer a bit better with no downside to the bass. I believe that the tweaks on the ET-2 have enabled me to appreciate what my cartridge can do. -Thanks to you guys for that.
-John
|
Glad to hear that Harry. Did you visit the "Bluebird cafe"? I'd love to make a visit.
I'm excited about a new acquisition, arriving on Wednesday. -An Allnic 1201 phono preamp. It's tubed, but uses a transformer based input. I'll have to stick with the lower impedance loading on this piece, as the unit has a max of 260 ohms which is what Jon Carr recommends with the capacitance of my cables.
This is uncharted territory for me, as I've never used step-up transformers on low output cartridges. I hope it's a step up for my system. I'll write a f/u.
Best to all,
John |
Hey Chris,
Thanks for the link to that rather involved discussion of the interaction of cartridge, interconnects, and loading. I must say I'm more confused than ever, but have learned a few things.
Has anyone taken into account the break in of the connection between cartridge and phono pre? With only millivolts on the cable, does it ever break in, and stay that way, if you believe in such things?
I got sold on a new interconnect by "Allister" at Audioquest, incorporating the DBS system. -Never used DBS before, but seemed like a good idea for this application.
I imagine it will beat my 25y/o AQ diamond IC's. An AQ water will arrive tomorrow. If it doesn't work in that application, I'll try it elsewhere in the system.
I'll get back to you about that.
John |
The AQ interconnect I acquired has a capacitance of 20 pf /foot or 71 pf/meter or thereabouts. Combined with the ET-2's cap of 40pf that's about 110 pf total. I tried it today and am very happy with the improvement. When I added the new phono preamp, -whole new level, even though the load on the preamp is pretty much fixed, at 280 ohms. -One less thing to worry about. I really like the SUT concept and am unlikely to go back. The S. Korean designer is pretty slick. The new preamp is like a hotrod. No remote etc, no bells or whistles; just incredible sound. I recommend it highly, even though it's not even burned in. I'm in hog heaven, and I even passed up the Braves game to listen instead.
-John |
Chris,
Sorry the 100 ohm loading didn't work for you. Do you know the capacitance of your loom? I guess everything matters including your tastes, equipment, and listening acuity. But Mr. Carr is the designer, and I'll stick with his recommendation. He says that 47K will work, but then goes to great lengths to delineate which loading works best for each capacitance range to make the frequency response flat. Do you still have your owners manual for the Delos? I checked and discovered that the specifications for the Delos are not the same as the Kleos, though they share the same bloodline. So, just use your ears. That's what Mr. Carr advises.
Cheers,
Jolhn |
Well guys,
Sorry for my mistake. I do know who everybody is.
Harry, whatever works for you is what's important.
I never could get used to the idea of the bypass loom straight to the preamp. I'm pretty satisfied with Bruce's very tiny litz wire harness to the terminal. It's very easy to configure it not to influence the arm balance in any direction. From the terminal you can use what you want. I like that flexibility.
-No Braves tonight, and I guess I'll have to force myself to do some listening.
John, fellow obsessive |
Chris,
It's the endless enigma. If I didn't have all those options, it wouldn't be fun. For that matter, it wouldn't be mine. (or me)
An old audiophile buddy of mine, now deaf, used to tell me, "don't F with it." I just can't resist.
-John |
-Screwed up again with my address to Chris and not Harry. Maybe I should eat breakfast before reading and posting? Maybe don't end your posts with a quote, and I'll keep it straight. Hypoglycemia? -At least I can still hear.
Go, Braves!
John |
I passed along my first system (circa 1972) to my younger brother who still uses it to this day. My first phono preamp and record cleaning machine went to a friend who, though not an audiophile, owns a large vinyl collection from the 60's-80's. I put him onto a new turntable and cartridge when his vintage Beogram died.He's the only guy I know who still plays vinyl.
John |
Harry,
Are you suffering from audio nervosa?
Just throw some money at it like I did. Don't worry; be happy.
I gave up on VTA as the Lyras are pretty immune with the cartridge top surface parallel to the LP surface.
I don't worry about loading any more either. The Allnic is fixed. I don't know what it is. Only the gain is adjustable at the SUP.
Is that screwey or what? -Really doesn't matter if it sounds heavenly!
Good weekend.
John |
Hey Chris,
It's ok to throw money at things as long as you don't spend your capital. Mom told me that a while ago, and it has worked for me. After all, it's only money. -Enjoy it if you've got it.
Hey Harry,
Do you have the Calypso or Callisto. -Just wondering.
-John |
Hey Harry,
I was mixed up about which preamp you were using. Sorry.
I'm with you on the loom thing. My AQ interconnects with the DBS system are working just fine (it apparently keeps the dielectric in the cables constant), and the original litz wire from Bruce effects the arm balance not at all. There are trade offs in everything. I'm sure that a straight shot from cartridge to preamp with a loom would sound great, but I simply don't want to take everything apart and start over again.
-John |
