Eminent Technology ET-2 Tonearm Owners
Chris, A while back you posted a link to some cool pics of Redford using a TNT/ET Two rig in the movie "Indecent Proposal". Check this setup out: http://www.symposiumusa.com/images/PCwRBJRLARGE.jpg Ever seen anything like this? Best to you Chris, Dave |
Hi Dave that link shows quite the elaborate effort. It appears from the pic to be a string driven first platter, which is then connected to the main platter as a rim drive ? You can tell the tension of the string is pretty taut as mechanical bearings are being used. The VPI TT feet shown are now just dummies? as the TT is being supported by the symposium footers. From personal experience the stock TNT, even though it was designed for the original ET2; is the bottleneck with a properly set up ET2. In fact this is the case with all turntables I have owned. I say this because each time my TNT and other TT setups improved, they just took the ET 2.0 and 2.5 to new levels. I still do think these pics looks cool.... http://imcedb.com/images/1/1c/Indecent_turntable.png http://imcedb.com/images/1/12/Indecent_stereo.png Give some thread to Robert Redford, a better speed controller and that turntable setup will change the way he listens to his music. Notice the FWFO** ET2 weights setup in the second picture link above. **Fewest Weights Furthest Out = Highest Vertical Inertia What does concern me with the second pic is that there doesn't appear to be any climate control. Look to the left of Robert Redford. Appears to be wide open to the elements. I think this is what we can call operating that air bearing under extreme conditions. The sound will change with a tropical storm. :^) Only in the movies as they say. Cheers Chris |
Hi Chris, I think the feet in the pic from the link I posted, if rigid, are maybe used in conjuction with the Symposium footers, perhaps for improved weight distribution or additional vibration transfer/absorption. I really like the piece under the bearing housing. I may inquire about that. BTW - I posted a better (I think?) explanation of the Empire 4000 D/III cartridge orientation on my system page in case you didn't see it... I have been playing with a used Sony SCD-XA5400ES SACD/CD player with good results on premium SACD material. I have a Modwright-version of this player headed my way soon. High hopes for this Modwright player as my final digital front-end based on listening to the stock unit and the raves, both in reviews and from friends, about the Modwrighted unit's sonic performance. In the pursuit of my TOTL SACD material, I found this: http://www.stockfisch-records.de/pages_art/sf12_dmmcd_e.html#text They use a DMM master played as an LP on a cutting lathe with an EMT arm/cartridge to feed the recording/mastering equipment. The Vol 1 sampler delivers the best sound I have ever heard, even using the Redbook layer on my Ayre CDP, including, yes, my analog rig. 8^O The SACD layer is even better. Best to you Chris, Dave |
Hi Dave my kids have been asking me for a lot of music lately, from all over the place. I don't mean different genres. I mean the cd's were all over the place, in my rooms. I have come to the realization that I am a terrible filer of music, but also that I am a pretty good listener :^) I somehow know where i put these things down and they can be found. But if I am looking for music that was not played in a while, or I filed it away to get it off the table or floor. Good Luck. So I got fed up looking for these things, and ripped that music too, to the external hard drive. These days all my digital is on files and is played external hard drive >>> dedicated laptop >>>>> DAC8 ************************* re the stockfisch link. - thanx for the link. Just a comment on their summary. With critical listening tests, this combination has proven to us to be the optimal chain when it comes to obtaining a sound as close as possible to the master. I would add "in this room" to the end of that statement. Just my opinion. There are just too many variables in each of our rooms to ignore it (the Room). I posted a reply to the Empire cart on your virtual system. Cheers Chris |
Hi Chris, "I would add "in this room" to the end of that statement." Agree, but is this not true of all masterings and much more so of the offerings by MFSL, etc that use "standard" mastering techniques? An engineer uses whatever speakers they prefer played in whatever acoustical environment they have concocted to perform "adjustments" to the master to sound the most pleasing to their ears? According to Stockfisch, this "mastering" step was eliminated and the sound of the un-molested product was compared to the master as was their non-DMM version of the same track available on other Stockfisch offerings, also un-molested, just sans the "analog" step. Of course the sound of the room entered into this comparison as this is unavoidable, just as the personal preferences of each person’s ear/brain are unavoidable. My wife prefers the non-DMM Stockfisch versions as she is accustomed to the less-analog-like sound of normal CD/SACD. There is an audible difference between the two versions. Preferences are what they are, based on what one perceives to be more realistic or pleasing to their ears/brain. I would encourage you and others to try this comparison through your system and in your room and share your preferences. BTW - I am admittedly one of the old farts that vehemently refuses to introduce computers into my primary source of relaxation and escape from angst. I have no others, by rule, to mishandle my media and personally enjoy the rituals of touching, reading, cleaning, loading, and even storing/arranging the real-matter versions of the media. I may well be a librarian at heart. lol Best to you Chris, Dave |
Dave- I knew I had seen that VPI Symposium set up before. see this link. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/2426 A search on symposium brought it up. Jloveys is an AudioGon member. Pic 10 of 15 is a good shot showing the footers holding up all the weight. I like his taste in speakers. :^) Cheers Chris |
Hi Nikola. yeah, I agree with you. decent I still do own some "decent" tonearms. But because of the ET2.0 and ET 2.5 they don't get used much. I also still have these three Turntables, even though I use only one really, and only have two ET tonearms. You need a tonearm on every TT. 8^0 This analog stuff just seems to keep going up in value every year, so I am not really being pushed to get rid of anything extra. .... unlike digital gear. |
Hi Chris, You were right as usual re: the Symposium-modded TNT using Rollerblocks as the sole support for the plinth and the corner footers being for show only. I will attempt to contact jloveys hoping to get some pointers. Thanks for the tip. nandric: Have to agree with you on the best MC vs MM. The Orpheus L on the ET Two (jabs aside) is on another level vs my MMs/Electrets, yet I still enjoy the latter in my vintage system, especially on beloved non-audiophile rock LPs from the 70s/80s.. Best to you both, Dave |
Hi Dave, Thanks for your best wishes. I feared to be killed by the admirers of this ET 2 tonearm because of my comment. Except by Chris who is my former compatriot and not from Croatia. I see that you are refering to ''Electrets '' carts. J. Carr wanted to extend our discussion about MM and MC carts to other kinds. But, alas, this discussion never got from the ground. If those ''electrets'' are, uh,''decent'' carts, would you be so kind to start a new thread about them? I am sure that J. Carr will participate in this thread. I have no idea about them but this will not prevent my participation (grin). |
Hi nandric, I don’t think you will experience reprisal here over your comments on the ET Two, made in jest or otherwise. We are all confident in the virtues of this arm based on years of listening (and also of tweaking) and comparing, thus knowing that the majority of criticisms come from those that have not made the effort/lack the knowledge to set it up right and/or tried to use it on an incompatible turntable. Will do re: starting a new thread on the Electrets IF you will help get it off the tarmac. Best to you nandric, Dave |
@nandric , Electret thread initiated in analog forum: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/electret-transducer-cartridges-vs-mm-and-mc-what-are-your-exp... Best, Dave |
Awesome Eric. Before you polish further, I have found that a product called "Detail Doctor Instant Restorer" I discovered in the "As seen on TV" section of Walgreen’s/Walmart works wonders. Just wipe on and wipe off. Take care not to get any on the glossy acrylic plinth. Care to share your impressions of the effects of the Brightstar platforms on your TNT’s sound? Have you tried using unwaxed dental floss in place of the belts? Best to you Eric, Dave |
Hi Dave, I haven't tried the Brightstar Platform by itself. When this is combined with the sand box as you can see in the thread, I like the sound. Good solid sound stage and feeling very low noise floor. The entire platform, sandbox and TT/Tonearm came from a friend (He sold me the ET2/TNT last year, then he found this Brightstar in his store room recently and send to me separately). His comment is that with the Brightstar only, its good isolation but the sound is not solid (he describe the sound as floating, I hope you know what it means :P ). He is actually the one suggested me to add a sandbox on the Brightstar and the effect is exactly as he describe to me. He mentioned he did ABC test years ago with only Sandbox, only Brightstar and both. Working like mine is best (Sandbox on Brightstar), but if only one can be chosen, he prefers the sand box, as this give good isolation and solid soundstage. The choice of sand is also important, we went into lengthy discussion and also based on my experience playing with sand in speaker stand. I choose rather large size quartz sand (each sand is the size of rice), too fine sand actually damp the sound too deadly. For the Dental Floss, I haven't tried it yet, I need some education on this, how to source and fit. I did compare dual belts and single belt as suggested by some veteran in the VPI forum. And I agree that I like the dual belt setup better, seems to give me more solid bass. Best Regards Eric |
Hi Eric, Sounds like you are off to a good start. My experience agrees with that of your friend re: the sandbox vs the air platform. If your TNT has springs vs air bladders/handballs, the air bladder under the sandbox can be of additional benefit. Your ears will tell. Current thinking (at least my understanding of it) is that soft interfaces do indeed dissipate external vibration coming from beneath, but trap internal resonances within the component on top (wrong-way isolation vs transmission). Check out the Symposium website for further (better) explanation. I recently installed metal footers (SR MiG 2.0s) between my SACD player and Symposium Svelte metal-foam-metal sandwich-type platforms and recognize the sonic benefits of reducing internal resonance there. It never occurred to me to consider the sand type. I used play sand that I let dry for a long while. I did place some industrial heatsinks hidden within the sand to dissuade the sand from packing and to provide additional mass. All sorts of creative ideas can come into play here. On the floss drive, the drugstore variety of unwaxed dental floss is fine. Use the belts you have to determine the length needed. Tie it off with your best knot (check the web for suggested knots if you are so inclined) ensuring that the knot will not slip under pressure/tension. Dental floss is surprisingly strong so no worries about breaking it. Place the floss around the center platter groove. It helps to have a patient someone assist. Now, while holding the floss under slight tension, work it around the flywheel pulley while moving the flywheel outwardly to apply moderate tension as you let go. Do the same between flywheel pulley and motor pulley.Turn ’er on and see what you think. You could even use two runs of floss positioned as your belts are now for better distribution of the load on your platter/flywheel/motor bearings, but I wouldn’t suggest trying that on your first attempt. Explicatives are probable. In my case, the sound is much faster and my TNT lost a great deal (the right amount) of its tendency to sound fat and slow. Cheap and not time consuming, so if you don’t prefer it little is lost, assuming no unfortunate incidents with your arm/stylus. Best to you Eric, Dave |
Hi Dave - going from memory from many years ago I think I can see 57.90's on the SDS display window for the thread setup I had on the TNT ? Why am I able to remember this but can't remember where I left the keys ? Mike from VPI at the time recommended the Spider fishing line which he used. Go into the fishing store and find 15 types of Spider line. Anyway did not have any success with fishing line or the Kevlar that I ordered in. Eric et al - the thread/floss is a slippery slope - prepare yourself for it Once there - there is no return - like this tonearm. for me anyway. |
* ^ 0 Dave, I thought it was because of a bad bottle of wine the night before. the first time I heard thread on the TNT it was like - WOW it showed me what was possible but....... As I experimented more I learned the table had two big constraints. The pulley and platter/bearing system was never designed for thread. Even though the music was much improved I knew I was fighting the design. To give you an idea of what I mean by this - purchase affordable Gutermann Silk Thread CA 02776 Set up the TNT or any VPI deck with it and see how long it lasts. A couple weeks maybe from what I recall based on heavy rotation of lps. Now on the thread designed table it will last .......until you maybe break it by mistake. Thats how much thread tension difference there is between the VPI and Verdier. I am a bit anal when it comes to design. Better design always trumps and leads to better results in the end depending on what you are after. So I ended up with a string drive designed turntable. Now Verdier did add the belt option to his table in later years for business sales reasons; but he did also include a separate pulley system for belt. And here is the thing - some owners of these tables do not know you need to use different pulleys depending on how it is used. Cheers Chris |
Hi Chris, I don’t doubt (at all) your experiences with your TNT nor with your Verdier and I agree that I am working against what was envisioned by HW in the TNT’s original design. He did, however, move away from the complex pulley system with the later TNT/HRX models. He also switched to an inverted bearing, perhaps to better deal with the increased side-loading force? Strangely, I have had no issues with longevity of the common sewing thread I first used nor with the floss. The latter has lasted seemingly indefinitely, even with extended periods of heavy rotation. I also have no doubt that there are better tables out there than the TNT, yet I am satisfied with my TNT’s sound in its current modded form and feel that it still is a superb foundation for the ET Two. Best to you as always Chris, Dave |
Strangely, I have had no issues with longevity of the common sewing thread I first used nor with the floss. Dave that silk thread I referenced in the previous post is pretty fragile. Easily torn apart by hand. Just thinking out loud here ... If one was in "Audiophile Mode"........meaning experimentation mode :^) One could try that silk thread - a single strand only - with a later TNT motor/pulley/platter/bearing design. If it lasts a long time, then based on my experiences in my room, I would say the later TNT version designs would indeed be better than the earlier versions. Cheers Chris |
Dear Chris, Everybody knows those two ''zero points'' on any decent protractor. Then there are members who are able to adjust their carts within the fractions of one gram and even SRA without any other instrument then their own ears. But why is nobody able to hear the ''perfect sound'' without any distortion at those ''zero points'' at which there is no ''tracking error'' and which provide the strongest argument for this ET- 2 of yours? |
Hi Nikola But why is nobody able not sure what you mean by perfect sound, but based on my experiences with my pivot arms..... Tracking error is one problem. The bigger problem is Antiskating and the reason we need it. Because the pivot arm even though it is tangent at those two points - still wants to shoot to the spindle, while the antiskating is pushing it back. There is a tug of war going on here, and its intensity varies based on the groove modulations. I sense "groove anxiety" by what I hear. 8^0 It's not until you hear your familiar music on a well set up Linear tracker that you realize this groove anxiety is even going on with the pivot arm. It is replaced by music that flows like water. More definition, soundstage (all those audiophile terms) When you remove this distortion, and hear it on a familiar album, one becomes aware of it. Once aware of it ....you tend to focus on it. I am unfortunately anal that way. We have discussed this already before, and I used the analogy of buying a car whose front right tire is always low. That's what my pivot arms remind me of. Just some thoughts, other owners of "any" Linear trackers are welcome to add their thoughts good or bad. so Does a dealer audio store, salon, retail outlet even exist today, anywhere in the world that has two setups that can demonstrate the above ? I don't frequent them anymore so don't know. Cheers Chris |
Hi Chris, Anyone who has let their ET Two-equipped table go off-level knows exactly what you are describing with the term "groove anxiety". As we have discussed before, my TNT's VPI Firestone bladders leak and are a PITA to refill/recalibrate, so I have to admit to "hoping for the best" on occasion (laziness). It usually lasts for around one cut before the pump comes out. Best to you Chris, Dave |
****It is replaced by music that flows like water.**** That is a great description of the most musically distinguishing characteristic of the ET-2 compared to the pivoting arms that I have used. There is a rhythmic smoothness that is very natural and gives music the feeling of not being constrained ...like water. Every piece of equipment throws logs across the stream; the ET2 seems to do it a lot less than most. Love the arm. |
Hi Dave Fixing the Level situation with a turntable design like the TNT is doable. If the ET2 air bearing design (very smooth) raises the bar, and forces an owner to take notice and become more anal about leveling their TT (any TT). Then I say so be it, because in the end it means better health for the records and the cartridge. Unfortunately I am not aware of any " pill " for groove anxiety. Cheers Chris |
Hi Nikola. the other thing I want to mention is that pivot arms produce more resonance at the bearing. Bruce has actually measured this and documented it in the manual. Now I base this on my personal experiences as a music lover / sometimes audiophile :^) The most resonance can be heard in the bass.You need to get the bass right in any room. If someone wants to call this resonance - distortion - feel free. Air Bearing linear trackers produce less distortion - less resonance. This means the overall room setup like speaker placement used, may need to change to satisfy some, because you are dealing with less distortion. Those that make comparisons and never move their speakers to accommodate the two pivot and air bearing designs, are not comparing properly. This can prove very difficult in some rooms if the speakers weigh 200 lbs. Especially with older audiophiles who have moved their final speaker to its resting place, and now focus only on the small components/cabling, etc.... Everything in audio is fixable with an understanding of ones’s overall room setup. Those on the forums especially Professionals that say the bass lacks on an air bearing - they are not focused on the overall room setup. fwiw I shared private emails with your friend Daniel. Dertonarm. He was very helpful when I was researching the Verdier. When I changed the topic to the ET2 - as you know he owned many tonearms, I discovered his preference was to go against the ET2 manual instructions and place as much weight as possible, close to the air bearing spindle. With the ET2 stock design - this produces the most resonance, and the most ill defined bass in my rooms. If you see him remind him of our conversation. Cheers Chris |
Thread Drive For those interested in thread drive I own and have owned both a Final Audio VTT1 thread drive and the Platine Verdier referred to above. My understanding from Final Audio's point of view is that the optimum pulley profile should be hemispherical concave for thread drive. I found that the Final and Verdier incompatible as far as optimum thread selection. For the Final Audio I use a very fine braided suture silk thread from Davis & Geck - this has high tensile strength and good grip. This thread sounded awful on the Verdier. The Platine Verdier sounded much better with a larger diameter softer silk/linen thread. As an aside the rubber belt option for the Verdier is appalling- you can see the rubber belt drifting up and down the platter due to the fact that the rubber belt has large variations in its "round" profile. Fwiw the Final Audio has an audibly superior motor drive system to the Verdier, much quieter, less noise and vastly superior in speed accuracy. I was easily able to prove this by running the Verdier Platter from the Final Audio motor drive. In the end I gave up on the Verdier, since the Final Audio is so much better the Verdier never got used. |
Ct0517This statement is misleading. The primary reason Bruce's ET2 has lower resonance in the bass is due to the the fact that the horizontal effective mass of the ET2 and the Vertical effective mass of the ET2 are different, resulting in a lower resonance amplitude compared to a conventional pivoted arm in which the horizontal and vertical effective masses are coincidental and cumulative in amplitude. This is not necessarily true of all tangential trackers, it will depend on the design and mass distribution of each particular linear tracking arm. Secondly Bruce's patented decoupled counterweight system further lowers the horizontal effective mass through the use of a leaf spring which reduces the amplitude of the bass resonance. Reducing the bass resonance has significant advantages in reducing tracking distortion as confirmed in the 'Shure white papers' on tracking. There has been a suggestion by Richardkrebs earlier in this thread to remove the patented decoupled counterweight system from the ET2 - this suggestion defies physics, ignores Bruces extensive testing results and audibly degrades the sound as has been widely proven. |
Ok I'll take the bait. Way back in this thread, I posted a resonance transmissibility graph. interpreted correctly it tells us a great deal about how the ET2 responds to various stimuli. For example it tells us how brilliant BTs design is in controlling unwanted resonant peaks at the natural resonant frequency of oscillation of the system. The system being the arm and the cartridge. Just a guess here, but it is most likely that the ET2 was designed when med to high compliance cartridges were very popular. A look at the owners manual adds to this perception, when it uses a cartridge with a compliance of 30cu to calculate the horizontal resonance of the system. (Horizontal being where most of the low frequency information is encoded in the grooves.)The FR in this case comes out to around 5-6 Hz, from memory. Now put this number, say 6 Hz, into the transmissibility graph I posted and we can see that when we approach the audio band ( 20 Hz and above) the transmissibility, depending upon the level of damping, will have fallen to around 10%. This means that 90%of horizontal groove modulation will be converted into useful cantilever movement. 10% of the modulation will cause the arm to SHIFT BACK AND FORTH. In other words we lose some output amplitude from the cartridge at 20 Hz. and the arm moves in sympathy to the groove modulation . As we move up in frequency, the loss of cartridge output and arm shake reduce, until it becomes insignificant at around 6 times the resonant frequency, Fo Since it is the arms job to keep the cartridge still relative to the groove, it would seem that we have failed in this goal. Now look at what happens when we use a stiff cartridge, in my case around 9 Cu. If we keep the ET2 in its standard configuration with the decoupled counterweight the Fo now increases to around 8 Hz. Put this number into the graph and we can see that the arm lateral oscillation has now increased to around 30% at 20 Hz. Only 70% of the groove modulation is converted into cantilever movement. A large 30% is converted into making the arm shake horizontally at 20 Hz. This situation is worse than before. Not only do we loose much more useful output from the cartridge but the arm is now booging down to the music, shaking about quite significantly. This is not a good thing. So so how to overcome this problem that exists most significantly when using stiff cartridges? (if I was using a higher compliance cartridge I would not disable the counterweight decoupling) Just as the makers of Morch, Dynavector, Walker, Kuzma, Rockport clearly understand. Make the arm heavy in the horizontal plane, With the ET, this is simply achieved by disabling the counterweight spring. Now the cartridge sees the full weight of the arm all of the time. This lowers Fo back down to the nice range of 5-6hz. We minimise cartridge output loss and minimise arm shake, provided we take one additional precaution.... So what are the other consequences of locking the counterweight when using a low Cu cartridge. 1) much has been written in this thread that I risk impailing my neighbour with shards of diamond tipped boron as the cantilever explodes due to the effect of tracing an eccentric record. It has even been stated that such a setup as mine will result in an arm that will be 300% heavier than a standard ET, as seen by the cartridge. Back to the transmissibility graph. The ET manual tells us that with a single counterweight spring the counterweight will swing horizontally at around 1.5hz. With an input frequency of 0.55hz for 33,1/3 rpm or 0.75hz for 45 RPM, we can see that under these conditions the transmissibility approaches 1. In other words the counterweight spring does NOT flex. The cartridge sees the full arm/ cartridge weight. Wand, spindle, cartridge, AND COUNTERWEIGHT. Under these circumstances my arm and a standard ET appear to the cartridge to be more or less the same weight. Under this stimulI, my arm and a standard ET behave in the same way. Adding more springs to the counterweight assembly shifts the spring frequency upwards and has no impact on the weight the cartridge has to push around. It still has to move all of the arm. One more spring increases the 1.5 Hz frequency by a factor of root2 Two more by root3 2) many more column inches have been dedicated to the myth that my arm has an enormous low frequency resonant peak at Fo ( around 6 Hz ) and this is disastrous to the sound quality. There are two words to dispel this "Critical Damping" . It is no accident that ALL of the arms I mentioned above have independent horizontal damping of some form. Just like my arm, where I use an oil trough, The level of damping is then simply adjusted to be around critical. This eliminates all the low frequency bump. There is none. 3) so we are now achieving nearly full amplitude low frequency output of the stiff cartridge by simply coupling the counterweight and we have no disastrous low frequency resonant peak. All good things for full range systems, just as Morch discusses in their info on the DP8 arm. 4) but what if your system doesn't plunge the depts to 20 Hz. All this would seem to be a waste of time. Well actually not so. I did not realise this until I got the oil trough properly set up. The clue is the standard ET arm actually shakes horizontally due to low frequency groove modulation when using a stiff cartridge. This in turn screws up all frequencies, not just the low stuff, because the arm is not providing a stable platform. So if we have low frequency information present, any other higher frequency music which is playing at the same time will be distorted. This is the real benefit of locking the counterweight. But only do it if you are using a stiff cartridge say around 10Cu and you are using an oil trough. The image becomes solid, stable. A very appealing attribute. It is not all peaches and cream however. This approach is very sensitive to the resonant characteristic of the structure that is used to carry the counterweight. For me this is still a work in progress. Others have simply decoupled the counterweight by using blu tac. I have not tried this but it seems to be a good idea as it would help to damp the I beam as well. cheers . |
@Dover re: your La Platine comments. From the moment you stuck a ball bearing between the magnets of La Platine, our audiophile experiences became non-comparable. We went down two different paths. I regard JC Verdier (RIP), like Bruce Thigpen, a genius. After all still to today their products are offered for sale. They have passed the test of time. I spent considerable time by phone and emails speaking to both makers about optimum setup. No one knows more about these products than their makers. La Platine experience is like going on a date with a mature French lady. If you want to hit a home run (American baseball), imo, you need to follow her lead and let her show you the way. It appears from your comments you only got to first base with her. Pity. As with all things Audio - proper setup is everything. |
Dear Chris, It is presumptuous of you to assume I ran the Platine Verdierwith the ball inserted. I trailed both. Really the essence of what I was saying is that the motor drive system is substandard. Furthermore the bearing tolerances are woeful and I would recommend the Callas kit if keeping it. Fwiw I sold it to an SME20 owner who found it was an improvement over that TT, so it is not bad, but it is not reference quality. |
Dover - taken from a quick search "Dover Platine" on Audiogon. Dover - 10-14-2012 8:18pm Now to me, I question why someone would want to introduce a path for noise, resonances. The design of La Platine’s Granito plinth absorbs unwanted resonances. It seems clear to me that in general terms, for those audiophiles that pursue higher end turntables, They do seem to fall into two camps. They either want their turntable to 1) have a direct path for resonances (the quickest possible) to mother earth or 2) they want to isolate the TT as much as possible from her. La Platine has been designed by its maker for this camp. . *********************************** Regardless. good that she went to someone that can appreciate her. IMO - She leaves too much open to the imagination and tweaking. To the pure audiophile who is never happy and constantly seeking change - she is a bad match I think. She is better imo with the person that is a music lover. fwiw My Vintage Granito La Platine and ET 2.5, are the only combination I have owned, that has ever even given me thoughts of hot rodding the Studer with 15 IPS tapes. If that isn’t reference quality, then we have different illusions Dover of what reference quality means. Cheers |
Regarding levelness of tangential vs. radial arms: The side-force on the stylus in a (non-servo) linear tracking arm is proportional to the off-levelness and the lateral DC mass, ie. lateral weight: From 75g up. With a radial arm this lateral mass/weight force is almost cancelled in case of non-balanced arms with tracking force / "tracking mass" remaining, 1.5 to 3g. With dynamically balanced arms it's totally cancelled, so it is (almost) not critical with radial arms. The sideways pull on the cantilever created by lateral bearing off-levelness and/or off-level platter and/or off-level record is visible at the moment the stylus hit's the record, but is not easy to see. To have the arm helping leveling, the arm wiring is critical and needs to be thin and very elastic, ideally left/right separated with optimal wire looms. The radial arms have the levering advantage... Optimising & eliminating sideways forces unleash the bass and dynamics of the ET2 linear trackers. It is *very* critical. I doubt that in the 80's all too many ET2s were set up correctly, thus leading to the mythos that straight tracker have a "problem in the bass". |
Hi Pegasus To have the arm helping leveling, the arm wiring is critical and needs to be thin and very elastic, ideally left/right separated with optimal wire looms. You mentioned this type of wiring setup previously. I can envision it but would like to see a picture of it. Feel free to send a picture to me if you like at bcpguy (at) bell (dot) net and I can make the picture available to the others. Another option is to have a straight shot all 4 wires exiting the armtube, which then go to the phono stage direct. On their way there, leaving the armtube are 4 separate strands which are placed in a happy face loop***. This eliminates binding. Binding is the ET2’s kryptonite. The 4 wires attach to the nearby platform your phono stage rests on (around the mid travel point for the spindle). From there the wires are joined to the phono stage. A picture of this can be seen on my virtual system page - Just click on the Runner. *** My daughters Bengal kitty loves my rooms, and I love her company, but her curiousness is fraught with danger. In room two it is the naked Quad Electrostats. In my main room, one evening as I placed a record on and sat in my chair, I could see shadows behind the turntable. Indeed a tail was waving. I looked over the table and there she was behind - eyeing both the spinning Platine thread and happy face 4 naked wire loop wiring - deciding I think which to pounce on first. My heart beat reached running levels in about 2 seconds. Specifically to lateral forces - the ET2 versus conventional tonearms. As has been discussed here before. "the lateral forces are .1 gm. compared to .2 gm on a conventional arm. These figures apply if you do not play records that are not severely out of round. If you like to play severely eccentric records, ones with run out greater than 1/8 ", then we suggest you use a low mass pivot arm" Taken from Bruce’ measurements and published in the ET 2 manual - Page 47 - Antiskating and Frequency Modulation Distortion Section. Pegasus I agree and I am pretty sure all first time ET2 owners of the 80’s, were previous pivot arm owners, who were fascinated with the ET2 arm design and function, but quickly became frustrated with incorrect setup from not reading the manual. The biggest technical error imo - leaving all the weights on the I beam, and simply moving them inward closer to the air bearing for more VTF - like is habit with most pivot arms. This does not give you the highest vertical inertia needed for the best bass. Cheers |
Hi Chris! I tried making photographs of the wiring - but the spot is too dark, and the flashlight messes things up – but I'll try again. - It's funny you mention that (even) increasing vertical mass by minimizing & shifting the counterweight out on the I-beam improves bass. Ie. moving the vertical resonance down from a frequency above 12 Hz in many cases. Because "too low" resonance is much more a problem with vertical resonance, not lateral, as LP rumble is mainly a vertical problem – and you hear even there that lower is better. I don't doubt this! How much less of a problem is a really high *lateral* mass within a certain safety range (not below 2-3Hz resonance)! (Except that down there is a problem with magnetic flux with some MM and/or MI? cartridges I suspect and found - not with MC.) - I think the quote of "lateral forces are .1 gm. compared to .2 gm on a conventional arm" refers to the forces exerted by wiring stiffness and skating forces, not to off-levelness of the arm. If one doesn't want to exceed 0.2g lateral force one needs to set up the arm to a level precision of less than 0.2mm over a 100mm travel! It's no problem to level the arm as such - but the wire may exert a "correcting" force for an off-level arm, and changes this sideways force at a different place than where it was level. A bit of a case of luck with the original cabling, or wandering setup of the turntable base. - The increased FM modulation with radial tracking goes back to the dynamically varying friction which dynamically varies skating force with modulation, different radius, different pressing / vinyl surface, and different aerosol deposits on the vinyl. With the straightline trackers are always tangential except LF resonance, off-levelness or other reasons for a slightly off-tangential cantilever. But this error angle is always much lower than with conventional radial arms with strong offset angles. - This absolute offset angle is really much lower with the Thales arms, specially with the newest, the Thales Easy. |
Hi Pegasus - I think I missed my calling. I am amazed by the physics that is happening with my turntable setup. Here I went, and became a consultant involved in a field, Business/IT, that was so new and exciting some 35-40 years ago. Who knew back then that it would be ever and always changing; so much so, that if you did not stay current, even for a few years, you become obsolete very fast. You can't change Physics. Many have tried. Some have even tried with the ET2. :^0 |
I happen to come across this Bruce Thigpen '07 interview in a Machine Design publication. It has some nice insight into Bruce and his products. My lifelong fascination with audio and sound reproduction resulted in the start-up of Eminent Technology in 1982. Unfortunately, 1982 was also the year the compact-disc player came along. And so it appeared that our first product, a high-end, air-bearing phonograph tonearm, wasn't going to keep the lights on indefinitely. Still, the demand for high-tech, high-end record players never disappeared entirely. 8^0 In the article Bruce gives good info on how dipole speakers work, and the reason for their bass limitations. There is also good info on how the rotary woofer works. Enjoy. here is the link http://machinedesign.com/archive/good-vibrations-0 |
Bdp24 Hi Eric Well imo..they sure don’t have any WAF. He should make a white wood version maybe, sort of like the jacket the assistant in that article is wearing. :^) I think without the grills they are the coolest looking speakers I have ever owned. Others would say ....huh ? those are speakers ? Sound comes from them ? Regretted selling mine. As far as I know from a few years back the LFT8 speakers have always been in demand with a backlog when ordering? |
Hello, Been reading for about a year but this is my first post. It is a real testament to the ET arm and Bruce that this thread has lasted over 5 years for a tonearm over 30 years old. The real purpose of my post is to thank you all for the knowledge and expertise you have shared. While I have owned my ET II arm for nearly 30 years, I have only recently started tweaking it. My tweaks are a direct result of the knowledge shared by all of you. I have the original ET II arm with few upgrades except the trough which I abandoned years ago. I found The silicon migrated out of the trough and created a real mess. I was still using the original pump that came with the arm but had added a home made surge tank. After reading posts here I bought a Wisa pump from eBay. Got stung. The pump was extremely noisy and had obviously been used with a salt water fish tank. I took it apart and got it quieted down but it only lasted about two weeks and broke down. I replaced it with a Medo pump and in the process discovered my surge tank was leaking at the connectors. Built a new PVC surge tank with brass connectors and bought a pressure gauge which showed I was running @ 8 1/2 PSI. The improvement in sound quality was jaw dropping. And remember, this an original arm without the high pressure manifold. However, the Medo pump was a little noisy and since it is rated for only 60 minutes, it ran quite hot. So.......I built a soundproof (well almost soundproof) box, installed a fan on one end and vent on the other to enclose the pump. Voila, not audible from more than a few feet away and now runs just barely warm. Well, with this success I had to have more and read a bunch more posts here which got me intrigued with the debate over less weight further out the beam or more weight closer in. I am using a Lyra Delos cartridge which Bruce considers light weight. I was using 4 weights at about the 3 1/2 position on the beam. I removed one weight which moved me out to about 4 on the beam. This lowered base response but was muddy and sacrificed high frequency response. I considered adding weight back and moving them in, but thought, what the heck, let's take more weight off and move further out. I am now using only two weights and they are at the end of the beam at the 6 position. Wow! Base got even deeper, tightened up and the resolution returned in spades. Add me to the fewer weights, further out crowd. I am not sure which of the tweaks had a larger effect, the higher pressure pump or the weight redistribution. I do know they were not the psychoacoustic improvements that disappear in a day or two. These tweaks were the equal of a major cartridge upgrade. Thank you all for sharing your knowledge and experience. |
hello vpi 30 years of owning your ET 2 - wow. I am curious to know if during this time you have had to clean out your manifold ? Some time ago an audio friend sent me a picture of his manifold before and after cleaning. This can be seen. It is picture # 32 on my AudioGon Virtual System Page. Click on my Runner to get there. Cheers Chris ***** Unfortunately the AudioGon System no longer allows me to link pictures from our virtual systems into a thread directly. @Tammy (Audiogon Support) .......if you are reading this.... this is another example of why this feature should be returned. It would IMO significantly increase virtual system traffic as well. This can only be good for business. |
vpi, if you do decide to clean your manifold as Chris correctly inquires about, I would be careful to do it right and go through the more labor intensive (but worth it!) process of removing and cleanig the capillaries as discussed here previously and NOT the sometimes recommended (in other forums on line) method of simply sending an alcohol solution through the "system". I did this years ago and it made matters much worse. The improvement as a result of cleaning the capillaries was tremendous. Regards. Chris, how are the bears doing with the unseasonably warm weather? |
Not real up to speed on this blog. Can't figure out where your "runner" is to get to the manifold picture to which you refer. In my years with this terrific arm I never experienced any symptoms that made me feel I needed to clean the manifold. That said, about 6 months ago while in a real obsessive/compulsive state I scrubbed it out with alcohol and a small tooth brush. I did not detect any dirt or debris on the tooth brush and noticed no difference in performance. I did not, however, remove the manifold for cleaning. I just took the tube off and scrubbed the inside of the manifold with the brush and alcohol. About every couple years I do swab the tube with alcohol and a cotton swab. The arm has never mistracked except on the few occasions when I was stupid and forgot to turn the pump on; the tube has never dragged in the manifold and I'm not reading what I would consider excessive pressure on the gauge which would indicate a clogged manifold. The Medo pump I'm using says it is rated at 7.11 PSI and I'm reading a little over 8 PSI on the gauge. Nice hearing from you, Harry |
Hi Chris, I finally figured out how to get your VS page and saw the manifold. Hi frogman, Thanks for the tip on house cleaning. I am, however, a little intimidated by the process of removing the manifold. I've read some places you can simply press the manifold out with your thumb and other places that say I might have to tap it with a mallet. I don't really want to take a hammer to my beloved ET II! |
