Chris, had almost forgotten about those pics. What the pics don't show is that the wire loom is the fourth different type of wire that I have used for my ET2. The AudioNote silver wire in the pic is the fourth, last, and best in my setup and for my tastes. The other three were Vandenhul silver clad copper, Cardas and Discovery. Does that qualify as a "project"? :-) Never knew that this hobby involved "projects". I always thought that it was about assembling a system or making a change of some kind in that system and simply asking oneself: does that change bring the sound of my system closer to the sound of music; or take it farther away? Who knew? Sounds like a great time by the lake. Your account made me think of "The Lake"; the second movement of John Adams' "My Father Knew Charles Ives". A tone poem of sorts that tells the story of a young John Adams vacationing lakeside and listening to the sounds of his father's dance band wafting across the lake. Interesting piece of music. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wriG62OtvTo |
Frogman - Does that qualify as a "project"? :-) Never knew that this hobby involved "projects". Canadians pronounce it PRO-ject. Proooooooo Americans pronounce it PRA-ject. Praaaaaaaaa Can't tell you how many presentations I did in the US when the room would look at me kind of funny; and not just because of how I dressed. After a few (presentations) I just gave in and started saying PRA-ject....:^( Then the Canadian clients would get on me about it. My bad Frogman. Personal work baggage using the word project, coming from too many years doing project management. A project to me is any activity that has a start, but does come to an end. It's temporary. How many audiophile activities does this describe ? I see setting up ones over all music room and gear as a series of mini inter-related activities (projects). All working together toward a common goal - in this case making music for ourselves . I typed this out as I listened to your music link. thanks. It brought out in me some strong images and emotions of the many aspects of lake life. |
Very good explanation of the pronunciation of "project"! I was, of course, kidding re projects. I have so many unfinished ones waiting for retirement that it's not even funny; Forsell, ET2/Forsell shootout, Acutex cart cocobolo body, among others. My wife, like you, is a project manager and she loves her work. I did, however, have to put my foot down and ask that I not be presented with monthly pie charts of our expenses :-) Although our pond upstate is not a lake, I am typing while listening to a performance by half a dozen bullfrogs each making a sound that is remarkably like this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLOgAjPtA35NR28TypURaO-giLn9VMmw8S&v=nCAA2fEHaa4 |
Frogman - I am typing while listening to a performance by half a dozen bullfrogs each making a sound that is remarkably like this: How fitting. A post about the music of "frogs" from Frogman. Ours resonate at Double Bass A :^) |
Those frogs are the lowest. Eh? |
Oh you got me curious now Frogman. So the bullfrogs where we are sound most like the Double Bass instrument to me, and are in A. But at what octave ? Here is an interesting link for the Double bass. Double Bass Frequency chartWe can see for A - the lowest octave is 27.5 hz. But our bullfrogs play at a higher octave. As octaves go up the frequency doubles. So I played around on the computer this morning. The bull frogs are really close to this note. Push the A Piano keyI then did an internet search sampling bass Hz on the internet. 110 HZDamn - aren't they at 110 hz ! Now here is the crazy gear aspect of this. My Lenovo laptop built in speakers CAN'T play this note. It can only be heard (110 hz) with my old pair of full size headphones plugged into the Lenovo laptop. ok... I need to be careful here. If my wife catches me having this much fun she will give me another PRA-ject to do. |
Excellent analysis of the sound of your bullfrogs, Chris; worthy of a side bar in The Absolute Frog magazine. Or, should it be Fraaag? Interesting how yours sound so different than mine do. And amazing how such a small creature can produce such low frequencies. There may be a lesson in there (dissection?) for the Totem design team. My bullfrogs sound like this (go to the last of the five audio samples) and notice the similarity to the "twang" of the Brazilian percussion instrument in my previous clip. http://soundbible.com/tags-bullfrog.htmlBTW, if this is part of what retirement has to offer, I'm there! :-) |
Interesting how yours sound so different than mine do Frogman I shot a short video (it was dark - 3:00am) with my phone and the sounds were the same as the last two clips in your links. 1) Frog croaking and 2) Bull frog. But the phone and my laptop as I mentioned earlier are limited in what they can achieve. Just a thought I have taken the same audio gear right down to the cables and placed into multiple rooms. This included different locations. building types even on different power grids. This was done due to job travel, moving to a different house, ... The resulting music was always different and most noticeable to me in the bass (waves) and how they interacted with the room volume, materials, etc... So, if we take two same frogs and relocate to two very different areas. Maybe one is placed in a marshy type environment with long grasses that help filter. The other near a smooth lake surrounded by hills. I think the two frogs will sound different to someone that is at least some distance away; so that he/she is able to hear the influence to the sound from the immediate surrounding area? Is this influence/effect not known as "the Room" - in this Audio Hobby of ours ? But if you put a microphone up close to a frog (before the surrounding area can influence their sound. They should sound the same, no ? btw - I always have a problem with the use of effect and affect. :^( Seems everyone wants to discuss component gear all the time on these forums. The Room aspect is rarely discussed it seems to me. I feel it deserves its own Audio category. I am back up north again. I have title to a piece of property here and pay property taxes. But while I am here I have always felt a visitor to the wild life that surrounds me. It is their place so I just try to fit in. |
****while I am here I have always felt a visitor to the wild life that surrounds me. It is their place so I just try to fit in. ****
Thought about your comment yesterday. We stocked our pond with trout at the beginning of the summer, thinking that the bullfrogs could use some company :-) They are (were?) fairly mature fish at about 8-10 in. Well, over the course of the summer it appeared that we had fewer and fewer fish in the pond. We weren't sure since its a fairly large pond and quite deep. Our dog had earlier been very interested in a spot near the pond where I found a tail fin; "fee-fi-fo-fum". Well, yesterday, as I sat on my porch swigging Moosehead Ale (really) and listened to Brahms' Fourth I witnessed an extraordinary sight. As I looked out over the pond a Great Blue Herron came swooping down from the trees, dove into the pond and snagged one of my Rainbows. Beautiful creature and much larger than I imagined, never having seen one up close. What made me think of your comment is the fact that I had never seen one near my property, but only some distance away where there is a large lake. I have no problem providing a $4 lunch to a Herron and the sight of it was more than worth it, but makes me wonder just how well I am "fitting in". |
Wow...Gourmet "farm raised" ? trout for lunch. Me thinks, he (Blue Herron) thinks, you fit in really well Frogman :^) Frogman - I have no problem providing a $4 lunch to a Herron and the sight of it was more than worth it $4.00 US dollars per 8 - 10 inch trout. 4 US bucks, is now $5.26 Canadian dollars. Does anybody need a new definition for slippery slope ? A tidbit Trout (lake trout variety ) are very sensitive to oxygen levels. Up our way since at least 1988 when we bought up there, all lake trout cottage lakes have been designated as limited future build. if someone owns just land (no cottage) whether 1/2 acre or even 200; they are only allowed to put up one building. Even one place can be challenging with the steep rocky terrain; but cottagers can be quite inventive. Well, yesterday, as I sat on my porch swigging Moosehead Ale (really) and listened to Brahms' Fourth Seems we like the same beer as well as tonearm :^) One of my favs. Another one, also from Eastern Canada. (Down East as we call it here) Alexander Keith's India Pale Ale. Although some Sleeman Original Draught has been going down really really well ...... with this hot, very humid summer. Moosehead beer had a godmother as a founder... from the website Meet our founding mother
Back in 1865, Susannah Oland sailed from England to Nova Scotia with her family and, lucky for us, with her recipe for a rather delicious brown October ale. Cheers to that. |
here is an ET2 Ebay ad that came into my mail. It is being sold by a seller for "Parts, Repair, Restoration"These ads can be a lot of fun and even like finding a diamond in the rough kind of thing sometimes; especially when the seller is not an audiophile and is not aware of what he is selling. You can learn much about the ET2 tonearm from these parts ads. And lets face it.... there is no successful user/owner of this arm that does not learn how it actually works. Anyone disagree ? If you are a plug and play, dealer "set me up please" kind of turntable guy. Look for another tonearm. Much about this tonearm can be learned from these types of ads because one is usually looking at valuable parts and not the whole thing as a package. All parts outside of the actual manifold/spindle/VTA ARC block are interchangeable. From Bruce' website. "ARC block - This part is only sold and installed if the manifold housing is returned to the factory. Each arc block was individually machined during original assembly and there are no set tolerance parts available. Cost to replace the arc block - $300.00" here is the pricing for reference of parts for those interested. Parts PricingSo the parts hanging off either spindle end, as well as the base plate, levers, handles cueing parts, could be bought as "outside" parts if still in good condition. Determining the VTA block's condition when buying used, was discussed in detail on this thread. Remember the Brothel Post ? Anyone interested in this should contact the seller to verify condition of the Rack's teeth. This particular AD does say the base plate has been damaged by a previous owner who did not know how to set it up properly. Also those dreaded banned Lead weights seem to be missing from this package. Happy Hunting |
Interesting “facts discussion” about linear vs. radial tonearms, most have probably read it: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1266367593&openfrom&1&4&&st100 Sadly mostly boring (ie. repeated, but skewed arguments)… but some interesting points. A main point is the quotation of a High Performance Audio Review test in the 80's measuring much higher actual sideforces and deflection of the cantilever on a SAEC radial tonearm vs. an air bearing arm. The reaction of the (radial) “experts”: Hilarious, ridiculous! The facts don't follow their invented orthodox belief, so the facts must be wrong! The reaction of other more pragmatic non scientifical audiophiles: This is only one situation, we must collect other… (measurements). Experimental science means, one well set up experiment with a non expected measured outcome can expose any pre-existing contrary hypothesis as wrong. In this case the “excessive side-forces”. But what am I as a humble pragmatic thinker compared to the pope(s)? Over most of the thread the effect of mass and bearing friction on a cantilever are confounded, and bearing stick vs. bearing friction isn't even mentioned. Neither are there attempts to define the magnitude of differences of (horizontal) friction of radial vs. air bearing arms. I think/suspect that even with the “lever advantage” the best radial arm may just quite cope with an air bearing. Horizontally that is. The rest is wrong thinking about the optimal horizontal mass aka. the desired horizontal resonance frequency – for best bass reproduction with lowest phase shift. The dynamic side forces on a cantilever are simply a result of friction (mostly non existant in an air bearing) and mass. Ie. they correlate with the horizontal resonance frequency – and are taking part in a compromise, where the sonic optimum lays much lower than audiophile orthodoxy. |
Hi
I am new here and in need of some tips
I have a ET2 that Im trying to upgrade to a 2.5
but have problem running it on 7.5 psi. It was marked mpm
I have a felling that is a bit clogged. What is the min working pressure for a mpm?
Any way to clean out the hole think there can be a bit of oil in them. This have a NOS upgrade kit came in plastikk bag and was a bit greasy. Have clean it a bit with alcohol
Got it to a point where it works "just" 95% of the time.
outer and inner section can some time be problematic.
I have Wisa 300 pump makes to much to noisy and need to be move that is most likely to bring the 95 down to 0.
there will be a lose in pressure even in a stiff tube over 30 feet.
But before I work my way true all the pumps I need to be sure that I have a working 2.5
any tip how to figure out this one
With regards
Styrk |
hi Styrk,
I believe I saw the auction for the manifold you are referring to. The seller told me about the 'mpm' and since I never hear of that I emailed Bruce about it.
Here's what he wrote back:
"The initials on the 2.5 manifold are actually HPM and it stands for high pressure manifold. This means the pressure range is between 5-10 PSI but it could be higher if the person who purchased it asked for one to be used with a shop compressor."
I took that to mean that there is no such thing as a 'mpm' manifold. So assume that it reads 'hpm'. I know of users who run their hpm at 19psi, so in the absence of knowledge about its history, you will want, for testing purposes, a pump that can deliver a range from 5-19psi.
A different explanation for what you are experiencing is this: the spindle that you are using is not properly matched to the manifold. Perhaps the user ordered the hpm alone, and for the auction bundled it together with the spindle s/he used with a standard pressure manifold. So, even though your pump is doing its job, the manifold/spindle combo you have is destined to fail.
The only guaranteed solution to the latter is to send your manifold back to Bruce and have him find a matching spindle. Other posters have reported ordering a hpm and that it worked fine with their existing spindle, so you could try that as well.
How do I know all this? Well I ordered a hpm last December and I have pretty much experienced every difficulty one can have. Bruce sent me a spindle last week that he thought might work (with no guarantees); it doesn't. Like yours I can get it to play a record, but it binds at various places, making for some poor sound.
Last night I wanted to test the manifold to see whether it alone was the issue. In my case, when everything is level and vtf is at 0, the arm always races down towards the inner grooves. I have to tilt the counterweight side up to prevent this--and this is when some binding occurs. For the test, what I did was put the manifold into the housing 'backwards' to see what effect that would have. The spindle now raced towards the outer grooves. That tells me there is some pressure asymmetry delivered by my manifold. Either something is clogged (unlikely since it is brand new and I've always had 3 filters in front of it) or the asymmetry is something that is addressed via a matched spindle (which I don't have). Or...?
Good luck. |
Hi Styrk - welcome to the thread. In addition to Banquo's comments pls see mine below. I have a ET2 that Im trying to upgrade to a 2.5
but have problem running it on 7.5 psi. It was marked mpm Firstly pls note that a ET 2.5 and HPM (High Pressure Manifold) are two different separate things. There are low pressure 2.5's out there. Banquo has one of them. To upgrade to a 2.5 from a 2.0 (high or low pressure manifold) means sending your 2.0 manifold, its housing and 2.0 spindle to Bruce. He will return to you a 2.5 manifold and housing and 2.5 spindle. The VTA Block should not be separated from the housing. This way Bruce can ensure it works properly. The 2.5 spindle is a bigger diameter and the hole in the manifold housing made bigger to accommodate the larger manifold and spindle diameter. The larger 2.5 tube resonates at a lower frequency and a better design overall for low compliance cartridges. A better design can lead to more potential. But the 2.0 works with low compliance cartridges as well. Just requires more tweaking. Any way to clean out the hole think there can be a bit of oil in them. This have a NOS upgrade kit came in plastikk bag and was a bit greasy. Have clean it a bit with alcohol I have a feeling that is a bit clogged. What is the min working pressure for a mpm? If it is a NOS upgrade kit the capillaries should be clean ? See the maintenance cleaning procedures in the manual. You can start with isopropyl and a toothbrush. There should be no oil in there. There may be some grease on the exterior of the rings for a smooth fitting. Assuming MPM is as Banquo said from Bruce' note, a High Pressure Manifold ? "Banquo363 - The initials on the 2.5 manifold are actually HPM and it stands for high pressure manifold. This means the pressure range is between 5-10 PSI but it could be higher if the person who purchased it asked for one to be used with a shop compressor." I have said this before here. The best way IMO to find out what PSI your manifold was designed for by Bruce, if you bought a used one .... First clean it out and make sure the capillaries are not clogged. Make sure the pump/s is actually producing the expected PSI at the arm "NOT" at the pump. Then start raising the PSI till it works well. Go one to 2 psi above. Working well means all the way through but especially the last track when everything is level. Use gravity to level the Spindle. Does this make it clearer ? Ask any questions, we are here to help. We all started where you are now. Welcome to the fun...... Banquo363.
Last night I wanted to test the manifold to see whether it alone was the issue. In my case, when everything is level and vtf is at 0, the arm always races down towards the inner grooves. I have to tilt the counterweight side up to prevent this--and this is when some binding occurs. For the test, what I did was put the manifold into the housing 'backwards' to see what effect that would have. The spindle now raced towards the outer grooves. 8^0 Be interested in Bruce' reply to this one ..... |
08-26-15: Pegasus
Interesting “facts discussion” about linear vs. radial tonearms, most have probably read it: Are linear tracking arms better than pivoted arms? Sadly mostly boring (ie. repeated, but skewed arguments)… but some interesting points. Hi Pegasus - nice to hear from you again. Re: Pivot versus Linear discussion. IMO - Everyone that has been in this audio hobby for any length of time knows its all a "set up" game - vinyl. My personal experiences have been a good pivot arm set up well, will out perform a below average set up of an ET2. So in my opinion we need to be very careful with reviews and experiments, as they are based on that person's setup only and it doesn't represent other set ups. Rooms are different as is the gear right down to the TT setup and condition of the cartridige. No two are alike . So I say for all these professional reviewers who know this already. THEY HAVE ALL SOLD A BIT OF THEIR AUDIO SOUL FOR SOME AUDIO DOUGH. ....heh heh heh ... So its an individual basis thing just like all our systems. With that the better design always has the most potential. And potential for this audio hobby is defined to me as more ROPE for The Vinyl Hangman :^) Still to this very day, FOR ME, Bruce Thigpen said it best. Re: Pivot Arms. Page 46....... ET2 Manual ******************************************************** There is a force component (vector) that is directed toward the center of the record. It results from the stylus drag force vector not falling in line with the pivot point of the arm. This force pulls the tonearm inward and the stylus can be observed as bending outward. THIS FORCE AND THE RESULTING BENDING CAN BE DEMONSTRATED BY CONNECTING A RUBBER BAND TO A PIVOTED ARM AROUND THE CARTRIDGE BODY AND PULLING IT STRAIGHT AHEAD (AWAY) FROM THE TONEARM. NOTE: THE MOTION OF THE TONEARM IS INWARD AND RESULTS IN THE BENDING OF THE RUBBER BAND (CANTILEVER). ******************************************************* You guys with pivot arms should try it. put a rubber band around the cartridge on your pivot arm and pull. (Hey - not responsible for any beheaded styluses). Been there, done that. Watch and .......feel...... what happens. You will never again doubt why Antiskate is needed on a pivot arm. |
Run away ET2 Spindle. Indicates a problem with leveling, wiring or manifold. Some options. Leveling - the ET2 spindle in the manifold is extremely slippery. Almost feels friction-less. No bubble level is accurate enough. Level with Gravity only. I use a Blue Tac pancake on the lead weights and make the armtube free float with VTF 0. Wiring - Push or Pull from the wiring as the spindle in manifold is very slippery. I have found where wire exits the armtube immediately down and over to your phono in a happy face loop is the least intrusive. Location where the wire connects at the opposite side is at the mid-point of arm spindle travel. Manifold - Couple of things to try. Take a draft leak detector pencil (bought at Home Depot for $5 dollars) and place near each end of the manifold. Is the air exiting creating similar flows or is one side more active? They should be the same. Remove the manifold and check the torque on the screws. Ensure they are torqued the same. Check for water deposits of minerals in and around the holes, screws. Clean it out. This pic was posted previously on this thread (from a friend) Before and After Manifold Cleaning- - |
I have been following this thread as I now have 2 ET 2's and a 1. Only one 2 running for now though. I have set up a audioquest 7000nsx and am being rewarded with great sound. Not sure of the specs of this older cartridge though so I was wondering if anyone had those and how you guys would recommend me setting this up. I only have the aluminum wand but am thinking of springing for another. And I am going to buy some more I beams with different springs.
Also Chris I believe we may be almost neighbours! I tried to email you but it bounced back.
If anyone has a accutrex for sale I could be tempted to purchase it. |
The way I level is by using test record with blank track.
I can't see how to setup corectly with out one. |
Output: 0.3mV
Stylus: nude line contact 0.3 x 1.6mil
Compliance: 9 x 10-6cm/Dyne
Mass: 9g
Load Impedance: >40 ohms
Tracking: 1.75 to 1.8g
Nice cartridge. I had the original 7000 mounted on my ET2 for a short time during a period when my system was making the transition from all ss (Threshold, BEL) to all tube. My original 7000 was a very detailed cartridge which I much preferred to the other Scantech (Lyra Clavis and Spectral) cartridges that I tried around that time. The 7000 was a little warmer and sumptuous than the other two which I found to be way too zippy and lean, but in the context of my all ss/heavily modified Magnepan MGIIIA's there still wasn't enough "meat on the bones" for me. I highly recommend you try the magnesium arm wand. A single leaf spring I-beam will produce a "fuller" sound, but I usually end up with the double leaf spring for a more organized sound that is less "lumpy" in the bass. Good luck! |
Will a London decca gold fit on 2.5 alu ? |
Thanks so much for your help frogman. Your right the 7000 is a very detailed cart but in my system I still find it to be very musical as well. It is a lot like my Lyra Delos but more resolving, not surprising as they are cousins. So at a compliance of 9 it would be quite low right? |
Rule of thumb is that a compliance spec of 12 or lower is considered low compliance. |
Frogman, I don't know if you teach , but I do know you are a born teacher ! |
I consider that a compliment; thanks. I don't teach (woodwinds) nearly as much as I used to, but I make a point of always having at least a couple of students. It is a great way to never forget about the most important things: the fundamentals. I have always been fascinated by the many parallels between our audio hobby and playing music as concerns the process of choosing and tweaking of equipment and how that truly relates to music fundamentals; rhythm being the most important fundamental. The ET2 gets a lot of the fundamentals right. Regards. |
Frogman - You have alluded to an attribute of the ET2 that has not really been recognised in this thread. In my view the ET2, due to the lack of offset angle tracking error and variable side forces, has better timing than pivoted arms, particularly with cartridges with conventional cantilevers. The proviso here is that the decoupled counterweight has been tuned to ensure that resonances are not interfering with the "timing". The suggestion to remove the decoupled counterweight by richardkrebs earlier in this thread will impair timing and rhythm - I have tested this myself - it is easy to hear. Correct reproduction of fundamentals and harmonics is a prime requisite for accurate music reproduction, and that includes rhythm and timing. Of course eccentric records cause timing problems with a conventional cantilever with any arm. Contrary to some views on this thread, the ET2 is the easiest arm in the world to set up correctly. It is one of the few arms in the world that provides for levelling in all directions. The lack of offset angle, tracking error and the elimination of anti skate adjustment ( which can never be perfect ) is a big advantage for the ET2. Just look at the number of posts and misunderstanding of anti skate. Azimuth adjustment is missing on many arms. The ET2 manual is sufficient to correctly set up this arm. When I bought my first ET2 30 years ago - I read the manual, installed the arm, reread bits of the manual to check that I'd completed the install correctly - all completed in half a day. The various mods - rewiring, electromagnetic damping, trialling fixed vs decoupled counterweight, trialling running 0.5mm overhang ad infinitum were all completed within months of ownership. It does not take rocket science to set this arm up, simply read the manual and pay careful attention to detail. The explanations of tuning this arm and the supporting test data on Bruce's ET2 Website are one of the best in the business. Here is a quote from Thom Mackris of Galibier Turntables - 04-03-10: Thom_mackris
For those of you who have not done so, download the two part ET-2 tonearm manual (PDF). It's in old-timey font, from the good old daze and in two parts from back when bandwidth was much more limited than it is today.
The manual is chock full of great information on tonearms in general, and of course with specific information on the ET-2.
You'll not only understand your own tonearm better, but will gain insight into the genius behind the ET-2 arm.
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier The most valuable discussions in this thread for me have been the discussions on air supply and seeing how others have set up their air supplies and pressures. |
Frogman, good to know you consider rhythm the fundamental as I came to the that conclusion myself when I started to listen seriously to jazz.
Why then do so many prominent jazz artists ,vocal and instrumental, seem unable or unwilling to keep time ? |
Schubert, there is a saying among jazz musicians that "you can't play outside (the harmony) until you know how to play inside". It is usually said in reference to some (not all) of the so-called "avante garde" players who squeal and squawk and have no grasp of the fundamentals (there's that word again) of melody and harmony, and who bullshit their way through an improvisation. Well, the same idea applies to rhythm. A great jazz player can manipulate rhythm and deviate from metronomic rhythmic precision as a way to create tension and release and expressiveness in a solo or delivery of a melody; it can give the delivery a certain swagger and relaxed quality. Then, there are some who simply have imprecise rhythm. It should be pointed out that in jazz there is much more latitude for manipulation of rhythm considered to be acceptable than in classical music. As jazz became more and more adventurous harmonically over recent decades, so did rhythmic concepts become more individualistic. For a great example of this listen to the great Dexter Gordon. Early to mid career recordings demonstrate great rhythmic precision. Later recordings demonstrate playing which was more and more "relaxed" and behind the beat to the point that it is almost painful to listen to him playing (especially ballads) because this approach created so much tension. He was a true artist however and this approach rang true and was a valid style choice. In the case of lesser players or singers this can sound forced and just plain wrong. |
Dover, I agree. Rhythm is something that is often overlooked or given short shrift in discussions about audio in general. Another favorite saying among musicians is "no one gets fired for having a bad tone". Somewhat of an exaggeration to be sure, but the message is simply that as far as the music (as opposed to ear candy) goes the most important fundamental is rhythm. There are some musicians who possess exquisite tone, but their sense of rhythm is rough and/or musically inflexible. Most musicians would much rather play with someone who has a great sense of rhythm and phrasing even if the tone is less than ideal. Because the ET2 is a mechanical device, subject to the effects of mechanical resonances and is not a human being, this concept only applies to a degree. However, for me, one of the reasons that the ET2 is so rhythmically correct is the fact that it is also so tonally correct. In audio, tonal distortions can have a very significant effect on our perception of rhythm. |
Frogman, as what you said is basically what I thought I agree with you 110%-LOL.
All jokes aside, it is amazing what you can learn through
osmosis .
Can you or anyone name another tonearm that can do ,at least to some degree, what the ET-2 does ? At my age the
fiddle factor for the ET-2 is beyond me . |
Specifically, I would appreciate comments on Origin Live Silver arm . |
Frogman - One interesting experience I had years ago was when a friend played a Phillips reissue of a Mercury Living Presence recording that I had. I could not believe it was the same recording, the reissue being very slow and ponderous. After investigation the only difference was that the tonal balance had been altered in the reissue. In terms of correct tonal balance I only use MIT Oracle cabling in my system - the gains in accurate fundamentals and harmonics over other cables ( assuming you have a decent system to start with ) are evident to my ears. Here is a very interesting video on the subject - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgK87tmRVeY |
Shubert -
I had an Audiomods tonearm with the VTA adjuster on a Verdier briefly a while ago and was quite impressed albeit with a Moving Magnet cartridge. Very easy to set up and adjust, same mounting as a Rega/Origin Live and reasonably priced.
When I had an hiatus from the ET2 due to springy wooden floors and the difficulty of wall mounting a 125kg turntable I decided to go to a unipivot, the rationale being that the unipivot bearing has much lower friction than conventional gimbal arms and would be the next best option. I had had unipivots before and they have good pace and timing in my view compared to gimbal bearing arms. Purchased a Naim Aro and can happily live with that as well as the ET2. Funnily enough Martin Colloms used the Aro on his Linn for the same reason - unipivots are less susceptible footfalls on sprung floors. |
The discussion of a musician's sense of time brings to mind a singer whose timing drives me nuts, and you hear him at many audio shows---Willie Nelson. I don't mind a singer having flexible or elastic phrasing (pulling ahead of or falling behind the pulse of the band), but he jumps so far far ahead it creates anxiety!
By the way, when you hear a recording in which the drummer (or entire rhythm section) seems to be dragging, it's not necessarily of his/their doing. In doing session work, I have found many singers to have trouble "waiting" for the beat coming towards them while over-dubbing vocals to previously recorded backing tracks, and end up "rushing". Don't blame the drummer! |
Thanks Dover, valuable info !
As the floor of my small condo is also the 3 feet thick concrete roof of the underground parking my problem is spikes on speakers .
I was in Needle Doctor a while back whilst a Rega Exact MM
was playing classical in a most elegant and refined manner. . |
Bdp24, is that called the Diana Krall syndrome ? |
Frogman: If I'd live in NY or the states I'd shurely ask you for lessons on my clarinet(s). It would be fun tweaking my fingers tangentially to the holes with your help and having them (the holes) optimized by tweaking the diameters... :-).
Dover: I found your posts very interesting and I like what I'm hearing with magnetic damping - in my setup, with a small neodym magnet close to the bearing tube placed at the "backside" of the bearing, direct wiring some cms away from the bearing tube. Not tried yet the "naked" alu arm tube yet.
Setup: IMO my original ET wiring was introducing too high lateral forces. I use twisted thin Audio Consulting silver wires outside of the arm, fixed via two or three small double sided foam ahesive pads. The wires go in a light curve, with a vertical radius, L/R some cms separated, to 7cm behind the arm tube, in the middle of the travel path.
With this, the arm is a *very* precise leveling tool. It shows the slight change of levelness introduced by the level forces of the tonearm on my battery-modded SL1210 with "trick-subchassis". So I have to look for a very slow movement toward the outside at the beginning and the end, but perfect level in the mid of the LP, or mid arm travel.
Every time I heard slightly tubby bass, it was caused by an involontary change in lateral balance. Unbalanced side forces affects bass - one already has it built in with too stiff wiring.
I'll try Dovers idea of a slight overhang, this is such a delicate tweak, that it will create much smaller forces than any wrong balance setup.
Decoupled counterweight & ET: I think it is a brilliant idea to reduce the effective lateral mass - in case of rather high compliance cartridges. It makes the ET2 much more widely compatible, than the ET one was (I owned it), or most other air bearing arms, specially those with stationary outer bearing, long bearing tubes and counterweight at the opposite end.
My axe to grind is that optimizing towards a higher lateral resonance frequency than say 4-5 Hz (at least) is simply neither necessary nor improving sound. Based on the same thoughts that stand behind the Moerch DP-8 arm.
Ie. with moderate to low compliance cartridges the counterweight decoupling introduces a new (sonic) compromise instead of solving a problem. But to really hear the advantage of a rigid counterweight, one has to do a bit more fiddling with the ET2 counterweight fixing than just using BluTak to bypass the spring (which I usually did).
For high compliance - I assume - it's ingenious.
BTW I use a pressurized air bottle (rental system in Switzerland) as air supply at the moment. |
Addendum: The VTA adjustment mechanism of my ET2 introduces slight (but IMO much too much) lateral imbalances when changing VTA. I assume Ct0517 will tell me that my VTA mechanism has a problem - but it was never overtightened or any thing like that, it has equal spacing around and moderate to low "clamp".
- so, after changing VTA I would *always* adjust lateral balance... :-(
- I use very small vertical cardboard wedges between arm housing and plinth to *slightly* couple the bearing to the plinth. One "outside", one on the counterweight end, underneath the damping trough. This improves stability and focus and is audible (and reversible).
- BTW I measured/listened to the energy put into the arm, arm base and plinth while playing an LP, by using a structural feedback microphone. I heard a wide-band replica of the LP signals across the whole arm structure into and including the plinth. With no audible HF roll-off "after" the bearing, it just went lower in level across the plinth, a bit absorbed probably by inertia. So much for "air bearings are inherently less stiff than radial arm bearings".
- And I heard bearing noise... like white noise, created by air turbulence of the exiting air. This has tobe put in the backside of our heads when increasing pressure on the bearing, although it's relatively constant. |
09-02-15: Shfinne
The way I level is by using test record with blank track.
I can't see how to setup correctly with out one. Hi Styrk So you are using one of these products ? Test Record I note that one of the reviewers said his test record had an offset center hole. On a test record....:^( Just saying. Using a test record implies that you are setting up with the Et2 wiring as part of the arm and connected as you need to listen to test tones. If you are happy with the results that's great, enjoy the music. But if you have more Rope for the Hangman in this crazy Audio Hobby of ours, I feel you can do much better with the ET2. If you really want to hear what this out of the box unique tonearm can do; you need to IMO use an out of the box method of setup and leveling. I have said this before. I am suggesting you set the ET2 up and level without the wiring. Pull the wiring from the tonearm initially and add it later. The ET2 provides for this capability unlike any other tonearm I am aware of, Here is the problem and/or limitation from my experiences. The ET2 wiring loom can also be called the ET2's Achilles heel. Many have pulled out their hair trying to set it up with the wiring as part of the initial setup. This is after all the way it is done in the manual. here's the problem. The wiring affects the tonearm far more than any other tonearm I have owned. A bad wire arrangement can ruin an otherwise very good mechanical set up due to the push/ pull on the sensitive friction-less air bearing. The wiring will cause you to throw out your leveling. To prove this, set up your wiring after like I suggest, and see what happens. Schubert used a word earlier that I really like .......Fiddle. Fiddle is what I used to do in the early days trying to the get the wiring right, especially with different tables; some with flat plinths, others with a platter and armboard that were joined by a plinth but not on the same plane. We can call this PITA wiring on the ET2 bad design ? but is it ? You see the the design also provides for having the ability to to reach very high musical sonics due to the ease, in adding in, a modded wire arrangement.... after you have set up your arm without the wiring. Yes without the wiring. I realize most probably set up the ET2 with the wiring already part of the arm. Still if a newer owner is setting up the ET 2 & 2.5 with the wiring attached to it, you could end up Fiddling - alot. You could pull out a lot of hair and succumb to the rumors that this is hardest arm to setup. Assuming a clean functioning ET2, this is THE reason IMO for those that fail to set one up satisfactorily. Their Wiring Arrangement. I am willing to put money on this one. This method of adding in the wire after allows you to make a wire arrangement that is best for your specific table and the least intrusive on the overall setup. Also FWIW and IMO .. the wiring set up discussed in the manual is just average at best, and was designed to work with VPI , SOTA, other tables in order to sell more tables. If Bruce is partnered with Harry at VPI as he was (the original TNT was designed for the ET2 ) then you want a standard basic wire setup. This was a very average set up at best. C'mon ..wire going down through the plinth to a junction box ? So give it a try. What's to lose ? Remove the wiring, and set up your ET2 as best as possible naked - sans wiring. Once complete with the mechanical setup and leveling add in the wiring. A small last but important point if you attempt this... For now you will be adding the wiring outside the armtube, and make sure you make no further adjustments to the vertical leveling screws. Only make adjustments to the wiring arrangement itself. Once you have made the best wiring arrangement after the armtube, you can tuck the lead part of the wires into the armtube if aesthetics are that important to you. You can also braid the wire along the armtube but keep single strands once it leaves the armtube. Braiding helps with interference (noise and hum), but it also causes binding of the tonearm wire. (this is dependent on the type of wire as well). This in fact is how my VPI JMW used to apply antiskate - with the braided wire going from the armtube to the junction box. The affect - push back - very evident with each twist. Then VPI went further and added another layer with a separate antiskate system altogether in addition to the wire. One becomes experienced enough with the wire arrangement through personal practice. This can't be learned on the internet. Happy Leveling |
Analogluvr
I believe we may be almost neighbours! I tried to email you but it bounced back. Hi Analogluvr I'm about an hour north of the GTA; but in summer about 3 hours north. You can reach me at bcpguy(at)bell(dot)net. Summer activities are coming to a close. Cooler nights and sun coming down much earlier. Its crazy when fall starts the way I just slip into this madness of a hobby without even seeming to miss a beat. For those keeping score the modded Music Reference RM9 amp is still powering the main speakers. No rush to insert the monster Krell to compare. Just enjoying the music when I have been home - like now :^) Mister Frogman I always enjoy reading your personal accounts as a musician; especially those words that talk to the interfacing that is needed to make musicians gel together. Cheers |
Hi Pegasus Pegasus
I use twisted thin Audio Consulting silver wires outside of the arm, fixed via two or three small double sided foam ahesive pads. The wires go in a light curve, with a vertical radius, L/R some cms separated, to 7cm behind the arm tube, in the middle of the travel path. I assume Ct0517 will tell me that my VTA mechanism has a problem - but it was never overtightened or any thing like that, it has equal spacing around and moderate to low "clamp". Per my comments to Styrk - Are you setting up the wiring after you have done the initial setup and level of the actual tonearm ? If not your wiring may be affecting the leveling as the air bearing spindle is so sensitive. There would therefore be an effect, even if a small one, on the VTA block alignment if you level with the wiring. VTA issues - Some of us notice this, other don't and it is based IMO on the stylus and how much detail it churns up. If the cartridge is musical but not overly detailed, one may never need to touch the VTA and not notice anything. Other than that, without seeing it, it is hard to discuss. I would however also inspect the base and 3 leveling screws to ensure there is no movement whatsoever. Maybe things got moved and something came loose with the main bolt. (especially into wood) This last comment is really for other newer ET2 owners. It's obvious to me from your posts your attention to detail is excellent. . Also never seen a 1210 with a wood base. Last option I can think of being a factory defect Pegasus
Ie. with moderate to low compliance cartridges the counterweight decoupling introduces a new (sonic) compromise instead of solving a problem. But to really hear the advantage of a rigid counterweight, one has to do a bit more fiddling with the ET2 counterweight fixing than just using BluTak to bypass the spring (which I usually did).
For high compliance - I assume - it's ingenious. This makes sense as the ET2 was introduced when high compliance MM were in their heyday. For moderate to low compliance think of a Double and Triple leaf spring. This was discussed earlier in the thread. Have Bruce send you five loose leaf springs and two I beams. This will allow you to make up one Double and one Triple I Beam. They cost only a few dollars. I use a double leaf spring mainly. I consider using different leaf springs part of an advanced ET2 setup and will let you tune your setup better. NO Professional Reviewers ever got this far with setup. Well I should not say this right ? OK - Point me to a review if it happened and I will acknowledge it. Pegasus - I would be interested in knowing where you position the lead weights and how many on the I Beam. This would tell me more about your audio preferences than any other aspect of the ET2. Pegasus
BTW I use a pressurized air bottle (rental system in Switzerland) as air supply at the moment. ???? 8^0 |
Hi Chris (?) the compressed air bottle is a 200 atmospheres 60 liter steel tank. It provides "air DC" (to my arm & head) :-)
Wires: the Audio Consulting wires are twisted single strand 0.15mm silver wires with thin isolation. I dress them carefully (two L/R separated looms in a circle of almost 245 degree with ca. > 15cm diameter) going up from the arm in 90 degree to ca. 4cm above & behind the arm, slowly turning > 200 degree and back to vertically down. I measured the forces applied by the elasticity and weight of a single winding, it's around 0.05 gm. This is audible - if one does not correct for it. But I tune the downforce by ear anyway. The forces are low, and less in the horizontal plane. The end effect is what the arm does: It still skates off very slowly outside the middle 5cm to the inner and outer grooves.
The wiring works actually very well (far better than the original wiring), and I prefer to keep the wires twisted for hum compensation. Some time I used 0.07mm single strand copper wires, the applied slightly less force but sounded IMO worse.
Did you really check for absolute levelness after changing the VTA position, finding *no* change in side balance?
The imprecision is shurely on a very low absolute level, but not low enough in my case. I found out the hard way, by ear that there was a problem. |
Dover, thank you for the link to the MIT video. Very interesting, and I was particularly impressed by how their designs are guided by music theory. As I said before, the conceptual parallels between the audio hobby and music making are many. |
the compressed air bottle is a 200 atmospheres 60 liter steel tank. It provides "air DC" (to my arm & head) :-) hah hah - I like your sense of humor Pegasus. Like wise when needed, I sneak some Arizona like air from my Timeter pump. It is after all located next to the treadmill. (But its on its own circuit - heh - heh) Did you really check for absolute levelness after changing the VTA position, finding *no* change in side balance?
The imprecision is shurely on a very low absolute level, but not low enough in my case. I found out the hard way, by ear that there was a problem. Firstly Pegasus if I put myself in your shoes based on this problem, if it is really bothering you there are three options that I can see. 1) As you have sensitive ears, try a properly set up double spring I Beam. As you know especially with heavier stiffer LOMC cartridges, the single leaf spring I beam can be taxed more and induces more horizontal movement with eccentric records. The stiffer double spring does not do as good a job of damping the spindle on eccentric records but is what you should be using with heavier lomc's. The manual does not discuss this. If there was an updated rewrite of it the single, double, triple spring I beams would be a chapter on their own - imo. To play records on an ET2 with a single leaf spring an eccentric record must not have a runout of more than 1/8 inch (from the manual) . The stiffer double spring would make this number a little less - imo. take note. 2) Send your ET2 to Bruce to check it out. He will tell you if it is within spec/tolerances for the year it was built. 3) Switch cartridges to one that doesn't reveal your particular issue to your ears. This is after all about enjoying the music right ? I can change VTA anytime and I again do a quick gravity test with the handy BlueTac Pancake which makes the arm free float. No movement at VTF 0, we are good. That is my test. I have these Blue Tac pancakes for whichever cartridge is on there. you start small, add a little on top till the arm floats like a teeter totter with two same weight people on it. Do you remember the uneasy feeling of being on a Teeter Totter as a child, with someone your same weight; and holding the teeter totter in a balance ? Remember if the other guy jumped off quick and you hit the ground hard ? The gravity test is no different, same principle. But the ET 2 has the ingenious holding cue arm for when you take the Blue Tac weight off the lead weights. I need to also qualify something and I have mentioned this before here. My ET 2.5 is a more recent build 4 or 5 years? not sure now - a custom build by Bruce and the manifold/spindle has tighter tolerances than my HP 2.0. Let me better explain this. With the air off sliding the spindle in and out of the manifold is much stiffer on the 2.5 than the older 2.0. My ET 2.0 is also a HPM (High Pressure Manifold) - but it will still play with only 7 or 8 psi. in fact it will play with over 30 psi and no air hissing is heard and the inlet air tube does not blow off. It is a custom build obviously and it was bought used. My newer 2.5 needs 19 psi no questions. So here we have another example of the way Bruce constructed and changed his tonearms differently either by the buyers request or just as time went on. We know for instance that Bruce went to the 2.5 to meet the demand of lower compliance MC's. that has been discussed here before. So how old is your ET2 ? |
09-09-15: Bdp24
The discussion of a musician's sense of time brings to mind a singer whose timing drives me nuts, and you hear him at many audio shows---Willie Nelson. I don't mind a singer having flexible or elastic phrasing (pulling ahead of or falling behind the pulse of the band), but he jumps so far far ahead it creates anxiety!
By the way, when you hear a recording in which the drummer (or entire rhythm section) seems to be dragging, it's not necessarily of his/their doing. In doing session work, I have found many singers to have trouble "waiting" for the beat coming towards them while over-dubbing vocals to previously recorded backing tracks, and end up "rushing". Don't blame the drummer! Bdp24 - welcome to the thread. Could this be a case of some singer "beat deafness", or maybe "weed" influence ? This could be fun if you could point to some youtube examples that illustrate this? if I may ask; So as a drummer, has it been your personal experience that the "beat" guys get the best chicks ? Good to have another back row guy here to balance out things. :^) Cheers |
Hi Chris, BTW the pressurized air bottle is true. :-)
I forgot to answer an earlier question of yours: I prefer to use less counterweights farther out on the I-beam. I prefer it because this way the center of gravity of the arm is more centered along the bearing, and because I have less lever forces on my semi-springed subchassis. It helps to float the arm better across it's way.
It also reduces the maximum lateral mass, effective at "DC", below the resonance frequencies of arm/bearing and I-beam/counterweight.
Less counterweights farther out in effect tunes the I-beam / leaf spring resonance lower down. In the end, this is a more important aspect than the leaf or counterweight looked at separately I think.
I went through many such tests during the 80's and beginning of nineties, taking some of them up in the last years.
I didn't like the single leaf springs with my medium to low compliance cartridges, I preferred the double spring ones - I don't think I have a triple leaf I-beam.
There is another aspect of the I-beam, which is critical / sub-optimal: The weights are not centered around the I-beam, ie. it exerts an offset torsional force on the leaf. This means that any vertical movement of the arm activates a hidden torsional resonance, which slightly modulates tracking force. The vertical axis is the one axis, where you want *absolute* "true inertia", and as few resonant modes as possible, including arm resonances, as it affects the critical downforce.
My feeling is that the stiffer beams control this aspect better than the single leaf beam.
I always preferred the I-beam leaf with a bit more damping than originally provided, using BluTak.
For balancing I move two Blue-Tak "saddles" along the I-beam, and the arm lever extension, to keep lateral forces equilibrated.
My ET2, now with ET 2.5 bearing is an early one. I ordered the bearing for around 0.8 bar (ca. 11 psi) and it still runs OK with ca. 3 psi. Though below ca. 6 psi things go audibly downward, the magic disappearing somehow. In fact the ET 2.5 has "simply" more surface and is therefore already stiffer, but the price is a higher lateral mass, probably 10g more.
Sending the arm from Switzerland to the US - and parting from it - would probably affect my sleep... not in the best way. :-) It works good enough... I'm Just checking lateral balance after adjusting the VTA. |
Excellent post Pegasus. Pegasus
I prefer to use less counterweights farther out on the I-beam. I prefer it because this way the center of gravity of the arm is more centered along the bearing, and because I have less lever forces on my semi-springed subchassis. It helps to float the arm better across it's way. Check mark. This is ET 2 - Base 101 SETUP from the manual and IMO has to be the most messed up part of the setup from Audiophiles and especially Professional Reviewers who DO NOT read the manual. (Arthur Salvatore are you reading this ?) I actually years ago; to see what would happen made up some extra lead weights and loaded up the arm counterweight HEAVY closest the spindle to see what would happen. You can't hurt anything but you may bottom out the spindle on the far side. At one point I seem to recall it sounding like a train coming through the room. Can you imagine Audiophiles loading up the I Beam and with a single leaf spring and playing an eccentric record. Like loading up the car vehicle for that vacation in the mountains! Hmmmm...Why doesn't my bass sound right ? BTW before I attempted the above, I consulted with Bruce and he told me - Go for it ! So I could learn. Well I learned. I now keep my weights on the tip of the pirate plank. Pegasus
It also reduces the maximum lateral mass, effective at "DC", below the resonance frequencies of arm/bearing and I-beam/counterweight. Reducing lateral mass equates to increases in the Vertical Mass = Best Bass in my room. Newer ET2'ers can think of the teeter totter again. If you weigh 50 units (cartridge) and your friend weighs 70 units (lead weights), your friend will need to sit closer to the middle to balance things. Teeter Totters are the MOST fun when both people are able to sit on the end seats. The changing variable with the ET2 is the cartridge. As Pegasus indicated position as few lead weights as possible toward the highest number on the I Beam furthest out. If you find you are just missing the end and need to bring on more weight further in - change your cartridge screws. The weight distribution on the I Beam is that important to my hearing. ***************************************** Friends, unfortunately the days of cheap Timeters (make first bid - you win and pay $200 shipping) seem to be over. Timeter PumpMe thinks Ebay seller Macemedical has discovered this thread :^( |
Frogman: Your response on 08-03-15...It seems that you've taken on the word "projects" as a metaphore for (our past correspondence). You seem, to replace the word "projects" for, (as you are saying, "change"? Is it not the same ideal?!
By the way.. I sent Steve McCormack samples of the same material I sent to you, (remember, after my initial contact, (privately), you agreed to my sending it... those terms were that you evaluate it and at some point return it). Later you seemed to have mis-read my initial terms! (His staff is very interested in it and requested more info). Some people are to be respected when they give their word/bond.
You haven't had the basic consideration of even trying to contact me regarding any impressions. Well, would you care to share now?
I will accept the return of that material if you'll be as willing to accept as you were to receive. |
Frogman: It seems your "value" has increased since our (conflict). I'm O'k with this as long as you return the material I sent to you, (on my original terms). You then, have free rein to talk about me as you wish. |
Pegasus: I emplore you... don't let your emotions get away with you.
Until I hear Frogman respond to his past, I'd hold off, as to his future praise! |
