Hello all,
With further fine tuning I'm running into the same VTA issue with the new mag arm wand. I have the original goose neck. I can get the Delos level only using the top hole in the goose neck with the manifold at its highest and VTA almost all the way up. This puts the scribe line on the manifold significantly above the record surface. Works fine for normal LP's but I'm pushing the limit on a 180 gm. Haven't tried a 200 gm yet. Studying Bruce's manual it seems the only solution is a thicker arm board. Maybe adding the aluminum base would work.
John, if memory serves you have a Lyra cartridge. I'm guessing it is the same geometry as my Delos. Maybe a cartridge that is not as tall would work but that's an awfully expensive fix.
Harry.
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Hey Harry,
I wish that I could help more but I'm not that familiar with the VPI tables. In my case, I have the scribe line on the manifold just .5 cm above the platter. I think that this might be close enough. I think you should first put the VTA adjustment in the center of its range. Then adjust the attachment of the manifold to the base to put the scribed line even with the platter or close. At that point, if the arm and top of the cartridge are not parallel to the platter, I would raise or lower the manifold attachment to the base. I think that this step is least critical.
You want the arm and cartridge to be parallel to the platter or record surface with some adjustment left on the VTA adjustment. You don't want the adjustment all the way up or down.
If your armboard is wooden, you could add height with a matching piece of stock of suitable thickness. If it's metal, which is better, get a metal piece of suitable thickness cut and attach it with screws.
I'll bet that Bruce has an answer for you. He's pretty quick to answer emails.
These arms can really be a PIA as I said but don't give up on the Lyra cartridge. You can work it out.
Good luck,
John |
Hi Harry -see if this helps Find your thickest and thinnest records that represent extremes. Leave armwand in the top hole of the joint. Since your VTA is already at the high point, leave it there and use the thickest record sample first. Adjust the post height so the Air Bearing Manifold scribed line is in line with the thick record. Adjust cart. Then put on the thinnest record. You now have the full VTA travel to adjust for it. Does that help ? This can be done in reverse with the thinnest record and VTA set at the low point. Note: if you need some extra overall height an easy thing to do is to swap out the 3 leveling spikes (grub screws) on the mounting base for longer ones. Also - The aluminum base is much heaver than the CF, very solid, no way of cracking it, but has the same dimensions.
Chris |
Harry, I don’t know if you have the thicker arm board that VPI made for the HW19 Mark IV to address the very issue you are having. If you don’t, they may be able to make one up for you. When I purchased the thicker platter for my HW19 years ago and before I got the thicker acrylic armboard my solution to the problem was to put washers between the metal subchassis and the underside of the regular armboard (or thicker one, if that is what you have and you still need more height) with the bolts going through them to raise the arm board to the desired height. Good luck.
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Re/ VTA & gooseneck range not high enough: Having a BSc in audiophilia nervosa including a MSc in empirical material testing... :-)
I'd propose a surprisingly crude idea, which might work better than it should. Have a carpenter (or your right hand :-) make a wedge formed piece of wood - good sounding wood like solid fir or similar, or maybe also birch plywood. The wedge is placed between the ETs headshell (doesn't need to protrude from the wand) and the cartridge, covering not more than the interface between your cartridge and the arm wand. The wedge corrects for the back tilt angle of the arm if the manifold and gooseneck are in middle & correct positions. Maybe the wedge is 2mm front and 4.5mm back - make a drawing and calculate the height correction.
You could glue the wedge to the cartridge with a bit of white glue / elmers glue which doesn't hold to metal all too well. This makes an easily breakable connection. The other side (either to the arm or to the cartridge) uses screws - or maybe even thin double stick tape. *Not* having a totally rigid connection with natural materials in the "mechanical loop" often sounds more natural.
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-Lots of choices here. I'm not the expert on this, but if I owned the VPI table, I would call VPI and get a thicker armboard -metal if there is one. The adjustment feet on the base tend to dig into wood and loosen over time. On my SOTA, the armboard is a aluminum acrylic laminate with metal adjustable pods where the base feet are located. Too much info, huh?
John |
Great responses. Thanks to everyone. I have the HW 19 MK IV which utilized a black acrylic arm board with the metal sub-plinth. Plinth and arm board are the same thickness. I also have what I think was the original TNT platter (black, lead filled with cork underside.) The thickness of the platter relative to the height of the post is what causes the problem.
Seems like nicest fix would be the thicker arm board VPI once offered but is no longer available. There is a place near me here in deep rural that works in acrylic that I can get to make me a new, thicker arm board. It would raise the post relative to the platter. Next choice is the aluminum base Bruce offers if it is thick enough. Since my arm board is acrylic there is currently no base installed. I'm also intrigued by Chris's idea of longer leveling spikes.
I'm going to touch base with Bruce to see what he suggests. Genius that he is he may have a simple fix.
The issue is not critical. I am near the upper limit of VTA adjustability but have a little (very little) room left. It limits ability to experiment.
I'll report back.
Thanks again for all the helpful suggestions,
Harry
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I don't believe that Bruce's aluminum base will do the trick. It's just a thin metal plate which you put between the armboard and ET-2 base, to prevent the feet of the base from digging into a wooden armboard. I vote for a new thicker metal armboard by hook or crook.
John |
Following up. I emailed Bruce. He thought the longer leveling spikes were the best solution and is sending me some. Thanks again for all your suggestions. I will report results even though all you guys have long ago blown by my lowly HW 19.🙄
Harry
P.S. Pegasus, I actually thought of your wedge solution but glue on my beloved Delos? Horrors! 😱
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John,
Didn't mean to blow off your suggestion of thicker arm board. It is my preferred solution. I'm going to keep my eyes open for one. Failing that, next time I am feeling masochIstic I'll tear down the table and take my arm board to my local acrylic store to have it duplicated in thicker stock. :)
Thanks,
Harry
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I wouldn't have thought you could gain a lot of height from longer spikes, but Bruce knows best.
I emailed him about the joint with only two mounting holes, and asked if getting the manifold even with the platter was critical.
-No response as yet.
John |
Hi Guys I have used longer leveling spikes in the past which is why I recommended them. The word spikes imo is misleading. Spikes to me, mean something like this. Spikes Long Pointing Spikes would not be recommended. They remind me of the point on my old VPI unipivot tonearm. Pegasus some time ago did a good explanation on what happens with the point and chatter. The leveling feet in the ET2 mounting base are actually grub screws. If you see this link Pointed Grub Screws you can see why longer ones would not be an issue. They are strong. the ones in the pic are not the ones Harry is getting. Just a sample for the link. Harry, when you said Aluminum Base earlier I misunderstood and thought you meant Bruce’ new Aluminum base, not the Aluminum protector as I call it. The other thing I do and this comes from all the experimentation I did, is to drop some oil in all vertical holes that connect say the tonearm to the armboard. I drop some oil into the ET2 base hole - the one the actual bolt that holds down the tonearm goes into, if the bolt is going into metal - aluminum, brass, etc... Did you find out why John’s gooseneck only has two holes ? :^)
Cheers Chris
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Chris,
Your suggestion about resetting height for thickest and thinnest records won't work for me because I already have the manifold up as high as it will go. No room left for up adjustment of manifold height.
You are correct, Bruce is sending me longer grub screws. But I was, indeed, referring to Bruce's aluminum protector base for wood arm boards. It is, however, probably not thick enough to give me the height I need. I'm not sure I know what Bruce's "new Aluminum Base" is?
Frogman,
I am also intrigued by your washers between the acrylic arm board and the the metal board beneath. This solution would allow one to raise height without messing with the tone arm mounting setup. Just unscrew the acrylic arm board (with tone arm attached) from the metal one beneath it, place the washers and screw them back together. Correct? Of course one would first want to place the guard on the cartridge and remove the wand so as not to shear off one's cantilever (been there, done that). Would you recommend Delrin or plastic washers as opposed to metal washers?
Studying the arm tonight the thought occurred that a taller joint (gooseneck) with a couple of extra holes would address this issue. As long as the junction with the wand was firm, I don't see a downside. Probably not cost effective for Bruce, however.
I love this hobby but am anxious to return to listening to music instead of listening to my system. That is if any of us ever gets there.
Cheers,
Harry
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I’m not sure I know what Bruce’s "new Aluminum Base" is? Harry The part the longer grub screws he is sending you go into. The actual tonearm base. Bruce came out with a solid Aluminum one - very substantial difference in weight - I own one. So Bruce now offers an Aluminum Joint (Gooseneck) and Aluminum Base. I also think he is going to be doing a run on the longer I Beams too. Just a note recalling here over coffee - past Et2 owners have put some divots into the original Carbon Fiber tonearm base from improper tonearm level adjustments. Some have even put a crack in it. Very important when leveling the tonearm to back out the vertical bolts first then re-balance with them. It can be habit to just do the side that you think needs an adjustment. This is wrong and over time stresses the parts, and that critical base that holds all the goods. So back out the vertical bolts first, visually look to see they are not touching the base; then just re-balance them. I balance using gravity. Make the teeter totter float with a little blue tac on the weights, same weight as the cart. leave it next to table for future reference. Its been years since I have had to level adjust. That’s one of the things a better table brings. I can recall the HW19 mk4 being frustrating in how it could go out of level fairly easy if not careful with those springs. You can go with pucks Harry - but then you will need to replace the plinth feet with springs, pneumatic feet, or some other type of isolation. I hope you can get back to the music soon too. Cheers Chris |
Well, I guess my wife is right; I really am a pack-rat. All this talk about arm boards for the HW19 got me thinking and looking in my "equipment graveyard" cabinet where I keep all sorts of stuff not needed nor used for many years in some cases. In one of the drawers I found not one, but two HW19 black acrylic arm boards drilled for the ET2. Harry, as another option for you and as an opportunity to scratch your tweaking itch, if you want one of them you are welcome to it, gratis. You could sandwich it with your existing one for approximately the same height as the "thicker arm board"; you would of course need longer bolts which I know are available at Lowes (or VPI?). You could also experiment by putting a thin layer of some sort of damping sheet between them; sure to change the sound a bit (resonance!). Don’t know why, but one of the boards is 7/16" thick and the other 8/16" thick; the thinner one is in better cosmetic shape and both came from VPI. Neither is bad cosmetically but you can always put yours on top. If you are interested pm me your address and I will send it to you. Re washers: delrin would be good, but I would experiment with metal as well just for fun, and I suspect that simply the act of "suspending" the armboard a bit away from the metal subchassis would have more of an effect as it would surely change its resonance somewhat and more than whether the washers are metal or not. Always fun to experiment.
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^^^^
They should come out with a new show on the History channel - American Audiophile Pickers.
very nice gesture Frogman. |
Or, "Audio Storage Wars". I’m sure I am not alone and God knows what else I have in that cabinet. Rules: we get to look over (from a distance) at the audiophile’s room and system and then bid, without looking inside, on the "Miscellaneous old stuff" drawer or box. Old Supex? Telefunkens? Tice "Magic Clock" (I’m showing my age)? One never knows.....👍 |
Audio Storage Wars would assume someone went through the stuff and organized it - sort of - to put it in the locker :^)
on a related note.
this past winter I brought my son downstairs and went over everything with him. I put a price on stuff - it sunk in - I hope. Don't want the wife to sell the stuff she has "noticed" come in, for what I told her it costs.
I have two boxes of Amperex Bugle Boys from Holland and the US. For the records, I told him some are worth over 500, but if you assume 3 bucks each - you can buy a really nice car with them so don't just give them away.
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We audiophiles all have our graveyard for old or unused equipment. I, too, still have a Tice clock, a box of various footers, (sorbothane, black diamond racing cones,Walker valid points with lead pucks, the original mod squad tiptoes, Michael Green tuning points) various interconnects and speaker cables dating from 1980's or later, electrical parts and connectors, various capacitors, wire bundles, ic's, circuit board material, tubes, which are still good but replaced with "designers." My favorite piece, now sold, was an ancient 841L EAR preamp I bought as "trash" from a local dealer for $200 because of a bad power switch and power light. -Both replaced for nothing and after years of use and storage, sold for $900. Still on the shelf is an ARC BL-1 which converts SE signals to balanced. My dealer told me to never sell it!
I could go on, but you get the picture.
By the way, Harry, if you don't have the aluminum base, get Bruce to send you one. -Very worthwhile.
John |
Thanks again to everyone. This assistance is better than having a therapist.
Frogman, yes! absolutely, extra board will surely do the trick. Perhaps a thin sheet of sorbothane between the two. Assuming I can figure how to pm, I'll send you my address. Thank you, thank you!
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Frogman,
Sent you an introductory pm. Let me know if you get it. Want to be sure I send to correct person.
Harry |
Hey Harry,
I'm not sure that a piece of godawful sorbothane between armboards would be good. Some areas are meant to be rigid. Then again maybe harmonics would not be crushed by doing this with the VPI? I would check with Harry Weisfeld before doing anything like that. -Just my 2 cents.
John
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Harry, got your introductory pm. Re damping between the boards:
While I agree with John in principle (I am not a fan of Sorbothane), I would, as with all this stuff, let your ears be the final judge. As I see it, because of the way that both boards would be secured tight by bolts to the metal subchassis, I don’t think that rigidity will be an issue. I do think that Sorbo may cause too much damping or you may not like its particular signature. I will include a piece of the material that I used when I made my constrained-layer- damping platforms for my rack. It is a very thin rubberized cloth material that is used in flooring installations that is very effective but not squishy like Sorbo at all. About 1/4 the thickness of the Sorbo sheets that I am familiar with and much more difficult to compress. It is easily reversible if you don’t like it. I find that there are few absolutes when it comes to tweaking, and as much as we would all like to think that our systems are "neutral", most tweaks related to resonance within and outside the system are perceived as positive or negative relative to the particular tonal signatures of our particular pieces of equipment and their cumulative effect. Experimentation with an open mind (ear) is the ticket, imo. |
Well Harry,
There you have it. I wouldn't argue with freebies, but YMMV.
What a great resource this thread has been!
Cheers,
John |
Hi Harry, I have done the tweak that frog man suggested. I used rubber grommets which gave me about a quarter to half inch extra height. Also as I believe somebody else suggested I think it isolated the armboard better. Very easy fix in my opinion. |
So now I have a dilemma. Frogman sending the extra arm board and Bruce sending the longer grub spikes. Ahhh, so many choices, so little time.
John, you are so right. Over the last month + I have done about four ot five tweaks to my analog front end. All directly or indirectly the result of suggestions or ideas expressed on this thread. Each such tweak resulted in a marked, repeatable improvement in my listening experience. And, the level of technical expertise possessed by the people here is amazing.
It is very rewarding. I only wish I had more to offer. Hopefully just reporting my results can be of assistance to others.
But lastly, John you must develop greater sensitivity for the elderly when you speak of how old your "antique" equipment is. :)
Cheers,
Harry (Grandpa)
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I guess I'm not sensitive about those terms, but I did get a bit hurt when someone, a young know-it-all, referred to me as "old school."
Experience helps. I've stepped in most of the potholes already. Some people have a long way to go to catch up with me. |
Well said John. In an effort to contribute I want to give a shout out to the Medo AC0105 air pump. It is rated at 7.11 PSI so it's only suited for those of us who have not upgraded to the high pressure manifold. It is also rated for a 60 min duty cycle. That aside, I have been using this pump for about three months and twice I have forgotten to turn it off when I went go bed. It just keeps pumping along and my gauge says I'm getting about 8 PSI. It is not quiet enough to be close by the listening position and does run hot. However, in my experience, it is quieter than the famous Wisa.
I solved both issues by building a sound box with a plate fan in one end and vent in the other. The box is built from mdf and lined with carpet padding both acquired from the audiophile dept. at Home Depot. The plate fan is very quiet and purchased from Amazon.
I have about $125.00 in the whole project including the pump and a new PVC surge tank.
Anyone wanting more details, let me know. |
Regarding arm boards and optimal materials, it's very interesting to watch the diverse experience in idler drive plinths. A mixture of natural and slightly lively wood layers, combined with *some* more deadened materials, like *a bit* of MDF and maybe one layer of stone seems to yield very good results. Pure MDF not, neither Corian, synthetic stones, marble or metal is desirable. I think a considerable part of this experience should be considered when thinking about armboards. Solid wood and *maybe* a bit of acryl or alu smewhere should work well too.
Personally I'd seek other materials than overdamped polymers like Sorbothane - it's sounds like s*** as a platter mat, and it's audible wherever one uses it. Even natural rubber feet on speakers (or under analogue decks) sound IME sluggish. It's easy to overdamp surfaces and overtighten connections (not only because of eg. making cracks in the ET structure :-). Both result in kind of a deadened, "negative feedback" kind of unnatural sound.
Solid maple? A friend uses solid oak to very good effect for the adanalog arm.
For ET arms maybe solid sBruce is the optimal wood...?
An eminent discovery. |
Pegasus
Regarding arm boards and optimal materials, it’s very interesting to watch the diverse experience in idler drive plinths. A mixture of natural and slightly lively wood layers, combined with *some* more deadened materials, like *a bit* of MDF and maybe one layer of stone seems to yield very good results . Pegasus Re: idler drives When I was curious and going through a turntable phase, any thoughts of building a plinth for a stock L75 Lenco as a project were squashed after acquiring a Jean Nantais Lenco, and having a look under the cover. JN LencoFrom my experiences, the idler design deals with the highest noise factor. I think the Lenco Swiss motor is art, but the wheel interface with the platter is not. Some go to extremes to contain resonances/vibrations. Looking at the pic in that link - JN found that huge voids are necessary under the armboards and motor areas; wide open to the bottom to help with containing/absorbing the resonances/vibrations. I/3 ? of the plinth is empty (air) - but it still weighs 100 lbs. |
So now I have a dilemma. Frogman sending the extra arm board and Bruce sending the longer grub spikes. Ahhh, so many choices, so little time. I wish all decisions were like these ones Harry .....:^) |
Hi Chris! I accidentally grew up with a Lenco B55 (practically same technology as L70/75/78) and a Thorens TD 124. These were the first victims of my brothers and my audiophile interests - we dismounted and reassembled them. I was more impressed by the ingenuity and elegance of the Lenco - *and* I still remember the sound as very upbeat and vivid, memories reaching almost 55 years back! Much more so than my slightly lukewarm memories the TD124, I'm sorry to say...
The Lencos plinths empty rooms are not for controlling resonances - they are for ventilation, as the motor, a shaded pole motor, has very low efficiency and consumes *35W*...! I rather think that in the end this is more of a weak point than the idler wheel. My impression is that the vertical low mass idler wheel is (within the context of idler wheels) a very good idea. The weak point there is a) the steering of the wheel with kind of a rod with limited stiffness and b) the exact positioning relative to the conical axe of the motor. But...
Rehearing the L75 in a friend's (superb) system with modded Avantgarde Trio etc. etc., after years of listening to a Well Tempered Signature, then a Funk tt with Funk arm was a revelation - already with a simple plinth. Of all "real existing" turntable platforms it is in musical, timbral, dynamical and coherence terms almost in another league - and it is a "stone age" concept. It really was a jaw-dropping experience. ca. 1980 I *never* considered re-using a Lenco or a SL1210). I was a *real* audiophile, who had to use a belt-drive... I bought a Thorens TD 126 - one boring lifeless turnatble. Then came the Rega 2, then a Walker CJ55. Both really much better in musical & colour-terms, then the WTT Signature in my system too.
Funny how I moved from "scientific" musical medicine back to "evidence based" or empirical musical medicine.
Today I use a much modded SL1210, which has a slight advantage in purity / stability of upper midrange timbres.
In Europe Pet Reinders is the Lenco "guru". I can do without gurus, though he has a good solution for the basic motor / bearing platform. |
The Lencos plinths empty rooms are not for controlling resonances - they are for ventilation, as the motor, a shaded pole motor, has very low efficiency and consumes *35W*...! Pegasus, that picture I linked in the previous link is not the motor hole, it is the armboard HOLE :^) And there are two of these massive armboard holes going through this plinth. They are separate from the large cavity below the motor assembly that you reference. These armboard holes are helping to provide tonearm isolation from those nasty motor wheel - rumblings. See pic 29 on the virtual system for the whole table pic. |
those nasty motor wheel - rumblings. I was actually amazed about how they disappeared behind the not inconsiderable LP pressing and cutting lathe rumble (the latter sometimes audible too), and behind the superb musical information & drive. I expected problems, but... armboard holes are helping to provide tonearm isolation
I assume Jean Nantais has pretty good reasons and convictions why he does things the way he does. But - looking at physics - how could these holes provide isolation from either acoustically transferred noise (which, if they'd change at all, would rather increase) or structure borne noise. Besides: How does it sound? |
Besides: How does it sound? Hi Pegasus Do you want the description compared to the other turntables ? or do you want to know how certain albums, songs, sound, when I am in a certain mood, with a little drink, and with the full moon in play ? :^) But - looking at physics - how could these holes provide isolation from either acoustically transferred noise (which, if they’d change at all, would rather increase) or structure borne noise. Let’s forget the massive cavities under the motor and armboards for a moment and concentrate on the build itself - Review the pic I posted. Look at the alternating layering. The design is meant to dampen/absorb resonances. The armboard is connected to the plinth in four spots where the bolts go in. Armboards can be any material - interchangeable- mine came as a hardwood. Note: Some, build a plinth for an idler one time, and then modify it, or leave it alone. JN has gone through XX maybe XXX ? plinth builds to get to where he is today with his tables. Just saying. He does have passion. An owner of such a table does "not" think about changing any part of it because of the road it took. You would be messing with it. It is, the table, based on his vision. ************************* Hi Harry - do you think you will be up and running soon ? Chris |
Hi Chris,
I've not been dead in the water. The existing setup with mag arm was fine on non-think records. I just didn't have any room to raise VTA any further. While waiting for Bruce's screws and Frogman's extra armboad I tried Frogman's suggestion of placing washers between the arm board and the metal sub plinth. In my case I used 1/4 in. tall nylon spacers. Had to get longer screws to screw the armboad back to the sub plinth but it was an easy fix. The 1/4 inch was just the right amount of extra height to gain back VTA range. I've only been listening a short time but my initial impression is positive, however, I think I've lost a little transparency and focus. Perhaps with the arm board sitting up on the spacers rather than secured tightly to the metal plinth I'm getting a little resonance in the arm board. Or perhaps it's the nylon and I should have used steel washers as Frogman suggested. The jury is still out. Want to do some more listening.
Im beginning to believe there is no life outside of the ET arm 🙄 |
That would be non-thick records. You know, the ones we used to pay a few bucks for.
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Before you attribute any perceived changes to the raised board make sure that you first make the comparison with the VTA EXACTLY the same as it was before you raised it. What made your initial impression positive? |
Hi guys, just wanted to warn everyone about a negative interaction I had with some clown who has an ad posted saying he wants an ET two tonearm. I answered his ad as I have two of them and right now I am using neither. The one I offered him is in perfect condition and I paid a tech $400 to put a straight shot of top-of-the-line cardas wiring going to their termination block. The VTA block works perfectly and it is in excellent condition. There is also two pumps with it that I have seen go for good bucks on eBay. Well he offers me way less than my asking and starts calling me an idiot and other names when I tell him never mind, good luck with the search. He tells me my pump is worth 40 bucks and as proof posts a pic of one on eBay that is not even remotely the same thing. Then he tells me the wiring is $53. Heck if he has a technician that will put a metre of top-of-the-line card ass wiring on for that money I want to know! He says that's the trouble with us audio files we think her stuff is all worth way more than it is. Just wanted to put a heads up on this forum as there could be a good chance somebody from here would offer to sell him one. I would suggest not to bother as he's obviously looking for champagne on a beer budget. And nobody needs the verbal abuse from some clown on the Internet. |
Hi Frogman,
No, I wasn't yet ready to blame the raised arm board. My dascription of positive response was probably the wrong word. After a very brief listen it just wasn't bad. Probably a psychoacoustic response. You know, when you've done a tweak designed to improve your system, you believe (at least initially) that it is good. Longer listening revealed loss of transparency and focus, shallower soundstage, sandpaper cymbals and loss of impact. Precisely the symptoms you would expect when VTA is way off.
i started playing with VTA resulting in substantial improvement. My problem (other than being a klutz) is the only straight lateral line on the Delos is the top where it meets the tonearm. On top of that my gear is all in a shallow closet so I can't get my head back far enough to sight for level.
By bed time I was pretty pleased with what I was hearing but won't render final verdict without more listening.
Thanks,
Harry
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OK, I think I've got VTA set right now. Cymbals are clean, soundstage back and I can hear the breath with vocalists and in Ben Webster's sax. In playing with VTA, however, I seem to have run into another issue. It appears that when I adjust VTA it throws the arm out of level. Yes, I know the HW 19 is notorious for shifting balance but I don't think that is the problem. I have a bubble level on the arm board and it stays level. Just whenever I adjust VTA the arm seems to go out of level. I've checked and tightened the two screws (pivot and lock) that hold the manifold to the post but that doesn't solve the problem and the VTA lever moves smoothly so I don't think I have chewed up the VTA block. Any suggestions?
Chris, I saw your picture about spacing (.02) but I am not sure which joints needs this spacing. There are 4 screws in the VTA block (2 up and 2 below) and there appears to be two pieces of the block that fasten to the manifold housing. I can't determine from your picture whether the .02 gap is supposed to be between the two pieces comprising the VTA block or between the VTA block and the manifold housing. Could this spacing be the source of my issue?
Thanks,
Harry
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Harry, I can't remember if you have the aluminum base and whether the three points of the base are on wood or metal. The points can dig into a nonmetal armboard throwing it out of level when you change the VTA. -Just a hint.
John |
Thanks John. No I don't have the aluminum base but I have a pretty hard acrylic armboard and the balancing pointed screws are nice and tight. But good thought.
Chris, I was mistaken there are not two pieces to the VTA block there is a line across the top on both sides of the block that I thought was a seam. On closer inspection, those lines appear to be marks from a mold or part of the manufacturing process. So....it is now clear from your picture and diagram that the .02 gap is between the block and the manifold housing. I suppose if this gap were not the same on both sides of the block adjustments to VTA could be different from one side of the block to the other and this would change the leveling of the manifold housing. I'll check the gap on both sides tomorrow.
Harry |
^^^^^^^ Ah - the VTA Block Harry et al. So special the worm gear system in the VTA block has its own patent. Is the reason this tonearm is the only one that doesn’t change VTF, and other settings like all other tonearms, with VTA adjustment do. Still remember the look on the face of an audio acquaintance from years ago, when I told him his $10,000 tonearm changed the VTF every time he used it. He was quite detailed, anal and used to use a digital usb microscope to set VTA/SRA. He was not happy. He had that look like someone had swindled funds from him. Tonearm manufacturers will never bring this up. Its the dirty little secret. The only one (Professional) that has mentioned it on this AudioGon forum is Johnathan Carr. He also discussed in that post how the ET 2 is the only tonearm that does VTA right. But to get it right is not so easy. Factory settings need to be left alone sometime; and as we know Audiophiles like to tinker and mess with design, and sometimes...not realize what they have done. We have all done it? ********************** The ET2 VTA design is probably also responsible for the biggest ET2 setup issue. And I blame Bruce. His documentation should say don’t mess with those bolts that are set at the factory, (unless you know what you are doing) but in nicer words. Lets face it - A Come to Jesus time moment..... as we used to say in my line of work. Everyone that has bought this tonearm used, and not already setup on a turntable, in the last 5-10 years, and did not read the manual (too intimidating). IMO most of them, have turned those horizontal bolts to help in setting up the tonearm on the straight line. THEREBY - throwing their ET2 out and creating a mini version of the Leaning Tower of PISA. Too dramatic ? So IMO the manual is at fault to start. Such a special process that is open to tinkering should have its owned section with warnings. If they told you, your computer needs a change made to the registry files to fix a problem; would you make those changes yourself ? Depends on your knowledge of course. Yet, adjusting those VTA bolts has a similar effect on your tonearm performance if not done right. It won’t work as designed. Is it any wonder that past owners who reach this point, with no instructions in the owners manual - have shut the VTA down - closed it - and said the hell with it. Never knowing what they did ? Just one of this audio hobby’s mysteries. ********************** The proper way to check your VTA torquing. (Setup on the table or not) "Pic 34 on my virtual system" ********************** Turntable "Factory" Drilled ET 2 mounting holes. The holes drilled into armboards at turntable factories are not all that great. If you have a factory drilled armboard mounting hole. Re-check and re-torque if necessary your ET 2 VTA bolts. Now tell me, ......does the tonearm still track the straight line ? Imagine If your ET2 is mounted on a 20 lb isolated armpod. All you have to do is move it to the table wiggle the base around for the straight line alignment and you are done. |
Thanks a lot Chris,
Now I have something else to worry about with this arm. Could you kindly elaborate on the gap between the manifold housing and VTA adjuster? Should the gap be the same at all 4 bolt positions or what? I thought that they simply adjusted the stiffness of the VTA mechanism, and had nothing to do with the arm's geometry. -Simplistic thinking on my part, huh?
Thanks, and g-day
John |
The Magic is back! As mentioned, after playing with VTA everything was sounding very nice last night. This morning I followed Chris' diagram and reset the space between the VTA block and manifold housing with the .020 in. feeler gauge, reset VTA, leveling and checked tangential tracking. As soon as the I dropped the needle back in the groove the improvement just jumped out at me. Transparency was back in spades. All of the subtle inner detail that makes analog so enticing had returned; like Clapton's finger plucks on "Unplugged", Carol Kidd's breath and the air across Ben Webster's sax reed. I'm still trying to visualize how the small amount of tinkering I had done to those two top VTA block bolts could have thrown the arm so far out of whack. But it certainly did. Thank you, Chris.
And shame on me Frogman for suggesting that raising the armboard on the washers could possibly have contributed to my problems. Not the case at all. This fix just gave me back VTA adjustment range with no negative side effects I can detect.
Now that I'm done with taking steps backward I can report my observations on the magnesium arm wand. If I were to reduce my impressions to a single word it would be "control". It is as if the arm grabs hold of the LP and says "gotcha". Things firm up, leading edges become more defined, and the space occupied by individual instruments become more defined. This was an improvement well worth the cost.
John,
My understanding of the bolts in the VTA block is that the top two attach the block to the manifold housing and the bottom two and only the bottom two should be used to adjust stiffness. The top two should be set to where there is a .020 in. gap between the block and the manifold housing and never touched again (see photo and diagram on Chris' virtual system page). You should not try to tweak the top two bolts as I did. After setting the top gap to .020 in. you can play with the bottom two screws to adjust stiffness if needed. Listen to me talking like the expert after I screwed this up on my arm and needed Chris to get me straightened out. :) I'm sure Chris will correct me if this explanation is not correct.
Happy listening to all,
Harry
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Hey Harry,
Your explanation is very helpful. I'm not sure I have an issue with this as I've never messed with the top two bolts out of fear. The manual just says to adjust the bottom two. However, as I see that pic from Chris, the gap gauge he is using says .02 mm, and not inches. Am I reading it wrong with my bad eyes, or did you make a mistake on that info? That's a considerable difference! -smiles.
John |
Hey John.
Actually, there are two numbers on Chris' feeler gauge, .020 followed by .508 mm which is the metric equivalent of .020 in. It is very hard to read from the picture but it is the same as the feeler gauge I have. I don't know if you bought your ET II new but if you are sure nobody has played with the top two bolts on the VTA block, you probably still have the factory setting and are good to go.
Harry
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Thanks Harry,
I still think you should get an aluminum base. It's much more rigid and Bruce will cut you a good deal. After I got mine, it took me six mos to change it out, because you almost have to start from scratch, setting the arm back up. I didn't want to do the work at the time.
Cheers,
John |
Beautiful day been working on the Boat . Check out this picture showing the internals of a destroyed ET2 VTA block. See Bruce’ patented design. Destroyed VTA BlockFor a full picture of damage inflicted by this audiophile, see Pic 33 on my virtual system. The problem with the one in this pic. The VTA bolts were closed, jamming the aluminum roller to the track. You can see how the aluminum roller caused a bald spot in the track. This VTA block will slip on that section and is no longer any good. The VTA blocks are all made on an individual basis with their specific manifold. For this reason Bruce can’t just send you another VTA Block if it has been destroyed. So, when buying a used ET2 - this is the part, the VTA block, that you need to verify is in good shape because you can’t see it. Ask the seller to measure the gaps for you. If they are factory settings as discussed here, it’s a good sign it was not messed with like Harry said Bolts uneven in gap, along with causing the VTA to not be accurate, will also put uneven pressure on the track and WILL wear the teeth out unevenly that the aluminum roller tracks. I keep all the 4 bolts the same in gap. open the gap more for less firmness but keep the gap the same on the 4 bolts. Harry - glad your magic is back. You have a lot of audio passion sir ! |
