Before the night is through...
I have a friend to thank for this one....
Kim Richey "Rise"
Get it, really, It's awesome!!!! It will cost you some $$$, but it's worth it! |
I know I'm stretching the positive here, remember A J Conti, his claim to fame is ultra high demands on the end "TRUENESS" of his product, hence the normal acrylic platter vs. his acrylic platter and how it may compare. This is the "anal" I am speaking of, I only hope I can achieve it once. |
Ct0517: an excellent description of the goings on with the leaf spring and how it works. I only wish Bruce would have mentioned the effects and the availability of the differing leaf springs years ago. A neccessity at this moment in time and should be included in future owner's manuals. |
Everyone,
This is an apology. Sincerely, I apologize to everyone, especially Chris. I've re-evaluated several things (personal) and I really think I can do much better.
I've evolved in good ways and my system has come along with me. I think I do have things to offer.
So I ask you, if you all will let me back in, to accept my posts as thoughtful and from my audio heart. |
Frogman..Good point on the wall mount, I usually check the TT level often for that very reason.
Ketchup.. Thanks for the tip on shim stock.
With regards to the damping trough... if the best results come from the paddle lightly touching the fluid, would there be any sonic difference in trying different weights of fluid or is that going way too far out in left field. Has anyone tried this? |
I recently took advantage of the .5 upgrade I had Bruce perform years ago by adding a compressor, and like Chris am running 19 psi. The results were eye-opening. I also made a DIY cable and am using my own routing scheme that has taken all of the pressure/force on the cantilever out of the equation. I'm using the latest Discovery wire. It is a heavier guage, but in the way I've constructed/routed it, everything is all good. I hope the pictures I'm posting will come through. |
Ketchup,
I thank Chris for putting me on to this. Adding some more weight onto the bolt so the weights can therefore be moved in closer to the spindle. ( It doesn't take much, I used the smallest brass weight provided with the tonearm and tightened it all up with the stock threaded adapter) Ideally you should add another lead weight. Maybe Chris will chime in here to help me out. He's much better with the technical reasons than I am.
The end result was a slight increase in transparency across the frequency range and cleaner, clearer more musical bass. |
I wanted to back up here a bit in regards to my system and my viewpoints. I realize that my system is not as revealing as most of yours are, but my comments are from my system's perspective. (I've owned my arm for over 20 years, just in the past year have gone with a high pressure compressor). I use 3 moisture separators and as a last line of defense, use a descicant dryer on the outlet side of the final regulator/moisture separator, that is about 3' from the tonearm. My compressor is in the same environment as is the rest of the system, although in a different room.
Whew!
A note, these arms are awesome! From a tweaker's perspective, guys or gals with a mechanical apptitude, and from anyone with a drive to seek excellence from their stereo system, this arm will always surprise and deliver but only with the love and care you put into it.
I thought from the beginning of this post that wire type would be a major source of discussion and it turns out the couterweight bolt mod is up for grabs. I personally am satisfied with my tonearm wire set-up and won't be seeking further improvements in that area anytime soon. The counterweight issue: I can only speak as to what I hear in my system and it's limitations. From a logical perspective, having the weights extending further out on the scale, to me, isn't a smart way to go because the further out you go, the more of the teeter-totter effect or see-saw effect (as Chris stated) there will be. (This is of coarse with the stock scale, not with a custom made Balsa wood item). (Frogman, I would love to see your set-up). I too, feel that arm/cartridge compatibility would be an issue here as well as is the TT type of suspension, if any, and getting really technical, the room construction and isolation systems that each one of us has deemed right for their own system. I personnally didn't know that the 2 counterweight beams provided with an arm were different in any way. Dover, we're waiting for your pictures.
This discussion is great! Maybe we should form a once a year ET owner's annual get-together? Of coarse it needs to be hosted by Bruce himself. |
..... I posted my "virtual system" only for the sole purpose of sharing my tonearm wire/routing set-up. I thought it could be useful for others....... Admittedly, I could have done a better job.
This (ET) thread was that important to me. |
Frogman... as a funny antidote... are you any kin to R. Vandersteen? |
Another important factor as far as my limited experience is concerned (with regards in making your own tonearm wire), the cartridge ends, (the ones I used are great!), they are extremely solid(silver,of coarse), with a hole made for the exit of any air/gases when soldering to ensure a extremely tight/worry-free joint. |
Frogman... this was just a humorous ( I guess to me only ) attempt at linking the use of Balsa wood in audio applications. Vandersteen uses it in his driver cones on the model 7 with carbon fiber. I believe I have read that he has aeronautical training/hobby interests. Thinking about this type of wood for a counterweight beam/scale is interesting. |
OK, I did some experimenting today with my set-up. First I removed quite a bit of damping fluid. I heard more information coming through (air, ambient info, detail) and found that I needed to raise VTA somewhat, but things were sounding somewhat dark. I removed my added weight, slid lead weights outwardly to bring me to 2 grams tracking on my Dyna (manufacturers recommended VTF)set the VTA back to where I thought it should be. The sound has opened up quite a bit and still seems to have the dynamics, fast transient response, and real bass weight (not bloated). Conclusion for now: I used more damping fluid than necessary to evaluate my set-up.
When I set up my cartridge, I use the help of a lighted magnifying glass to try and visually set at 92 degrees. This is where I make my reference point in regards to VTA for any record.
I'm a little frustrated with the recent changes to A'gon myself. |
Chris... I still use the ET supplied fluid. Your observation on mood influencing what you hear I think has some validity. When listening to brand new Lps, what I hear the first time doesn't always equal to what I hear the second time. I believe this has something to do with unknown expectations. |
ET air pressure:
I've experimented again. I understand other perspectives' (17 psi) , however, in my system ( and I do believe this is system dependant), very slightly under 19 psi is the desired pressure. |
We all have detailed and thoughtful analysis of our systems and components. We express our thoughts on each of these and yet, we aren't focusing on a specific source!
This seems to be an obvious ommision of extreme consequense. This thread is about ET owner's experiences with this arm in our, varied systems. While our systems vary, our source doesn't have to. So, my suggestion is that we, as ET owners, discuss our experiences with this arm in our different systems with one, (agreeable) recording, (lp) in mind. To me, this makes perfect sense. |
Ct: As far as the high pressure manifols beiing "custom built", not, at least in my case. I had my (.5) upgrade done at least 15 years ago and Bruce did't ask me what pump/pressure I was using. I'm currently running 18psi,
Ketcup: I can run over 20 psi right now and not affect anything but the hose/connectors. IE: No issues regharding over 20psi into the ET 2.5 manifold.
Apbii: Any "soft" form of (suspension) in the VPI line of TT will result in a softening of transients and ,you guessed it, MUSIC.
OK guys, This is obvious, any rubber, compliant, suspension, WILL result in a overly warm, muddy, less "What we are all looking for" SOUND!!!!! |
Frogman: You're right, I should say "In my system". |
FROGMAN... you didn't, I will be glad to clarify my statements when needed. I get on my high horse some and I thank you for pulling me back down a notch. I get too passionate about audio as everyone can see. |
Philcoffino: Your observation in regards to the runout groove being more steeply pitched is right on. Every record is different. I was curious as to what kind of damping if any, you are using? Trough, magnet, or none? |
By the way, I've been reading with great interest regarding the leaf spring/s and their effect. I realized I had two and decided to take a look at the one I had been using for years. When I removed it, I noticed that the leaf spring had become unattatched. I replaced it with my other I-beam and what was instantly noticable was less movement which has translated into better sound. I plan on investigating this further.
I've made some other changes to my TT isolation and as soon as it is possible, I'll update my virtual system if anyone has any interest in following this. I have a custom armboard project in the works also. |
Ct0517: Regarding my arm and for which pressure it was designed.... I found a receipt stating "high pressure manifold", remember, this was way back when this option was first introduced. This and the fact that I am getting optimum sound from exactly 18.5psi, to me, confirms the fact that what I'm hearing correlates to this discussion.
Again, FWIW. |
Thanks Chris,
I haven't yet caught up on everything but, what I'm sensing is awesome sonics from very economical carts. I will get caught up on this. I'm glad that Dgarretson has posted, his set-up is pretty amazing! (I wonder where he has his machining done?)
I know that IMO, there must be a few lps that most of us own, (or should own) that will be easy to obtain. I'm certainly up for a new record if I don't currently own it. |
I haven't yet taken the time to re-post my virtual system but I've had some interesting findings.
This should be interesting to you all, I hope it doesn't seem all about me, even though it really is.
My tt is a wall mount. Sadly, it's not on a load bearing wall. I've done my best to compensate, I have a MANA (custom) wall mount as the basis for the tt, (also a separate one for the outboard motor, thread drive), I've made a custom motor enclosure that, after hearing the positive benefits, I've already decided to construct another. I'm using a combo of Symposium platforms and BDR shelves. I use a ET 2.5, currently running 17psi @ the arm, a Dyna 17D3. (I think this cart weighs around 5 grams).
What I'm getting at is this, I've had an issue where if the cartridge is sitting in the groove, tt not spinning volume up!, I'd get a low frequency rumble. This could be several things, and I've tried several things.
I recently purchased a double leaf spring I-beam, re-read the manual and my (2) counterweights are now at the end of the I-beam. To my surprise, performing the cart in the groove test now results in NO rumble. Hallelulia! Now I'm going to play Ryan Bingham's excellent "Hallelulia"
Recently I purchased a double leaf spring I-beam |
Frogman. Is your "Hah"! a good thing or not so good thing.
I still think that my new motor enclosure design will help.
I also realize that this fix may be somewhat a 'bandaid fix' towards other potential issues. In any case, I'm enjoying the problem being gone for now. |
Frogman: As you can see, I still haven't read through all of the postings since I left a while back. However, It's a very positive thing for me to put myself 'out-there' in this way and have someone with your experience with these issues comfirm my own findings. And as you all are aware... I kind of wear my heart on my sleeve, so this was a nice confirmation of my findings that are usually, well, almost always found in a setting of me and my system, no other influences. Thanks! |
I want to say one other thing related to the discussion I kind of created recently. Music. This is what it's all about. Whether you're in it for the mechanics or the feeling...... that's what we all have to decide.
If I was asked, what I could do without, my electronics(system) or my lps, that's easy............ take my electronics, PLEASE!
My heart @ soul is in the music , $@^$## the electronics!!!
By the way, did you hear about the guy who went record shopping @..................
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Frogman: A LP we could all agree on introduces a variety of unforseen issues. I understand that some of you are trained musicians with differing perspectives than some of us. Your mention of "Nightfly" is interesting. Yes, I believe it was one of the first digital recordings, still it envokes something, maybe, unexplained within us to envolve ourselves in this music. The musicians of this group and the music lovers may be able to come to an agreement of an appropriate reference lp.
I was reminded recently by a friend that Paul Simon's "There Goes Rhyming Simon" is an excellent recording to understand and descern the complexities of a recording. While it is a kind of (best of), it is an analog recording of excellent quality.
What do you all think?
Having said this, I realized lately that the one thing I neglect to account for in my listening sessions is the tone, etc... of each instrument. While I do notice it, this is an interesting and involving make-up of the recording that is often lost. |
I am somewhat concerned that just two of the many posters are interested in a (reference) lp in which to judge.
On-line judging isn't optimal, neither is, up to date reporting of similar components in differing systems on the same tonearm...?
What is the use of all of our spending, listening, comparing and of systems we will never hear or experience together, unless we have a (descent analog) reference in which we can agree on? And even then, It's very Xo%!ing lacking of any validity! |
I'm happy to go along with what others have. I also have an original WB Donald Fagan & a Japanees copy also. Of course I have an original "There Goes Rymin' Simon". I'm sure I could help with a larger list guys. Actually, HP put "Negotions and Love Songs" on the TAS list years ago. "Bookends" is probably my favorite lp of all time. We can sure go in another direction. I have a KOB but not sure of it's quality. |
Frogman: I had the exact same thing happen with my Airtech tank.
Chris: I like to use lint free swabs for maintainence issues, from spindle/manifold/ to TT bearing cleaning.
Also, I use Techspray isopropyl alcohol that's 99.9% pure. Evaporates much faster. All available at Parts Express. |
Dgarretson: The "Rymin' Simom" has several tracks with a siblnce issue, IE... "Something So Wrong", (must be all of those S's.) Any way for siblince, this lp should meet your criteria except for a female lead. It has several tracks that can show well in good set-up with depth, soundtage, ambient info, several great African American singers and their placement along the stage.
I'm thinking about aquiring an Acutex. If so, I might have to use a lead weight/shim in order to have room to fit my cartridge leads in. Would this affect this carts abilities significantly/at all????? |
Forgive me above, "Something So Right" is the songs name. |
Thanks Dgarretson for the tips.
I started reading the MM thread, WOW, boy am I behind on my homework! It will take me a while to get through it all but already getting excited about the Acutex if I can obtain one. |
Ct0517: Chris, you are the MAN regarding various set-ups.. but I submit, what really matters is how the arm's set-up transfers to "playing conditions". After all, as I think you will agree, this is what really matters.
A long time owner of this arm will have no problem in, ( once in a while), adjusting for differing lp surfaces. (IMO) |
DGarretson/Frogman: Do either of you see any harm in using carbon fiber rigid plate to fashion a spacer in which to mount the Acutex 420 to an ET carbon fiber armwand? McMaster Carr has some 1/8" x 12" fof around $11.00? |
Hey guys, I've mounted my Acutex 420 and thought I'd send some intial impressions. I am having a couple issues with my current wire loom that's keeping me from an optimal set-up. So please keep this in mind regarding remarks I make on cartridge performance.
My wire loom was made with longer than usual cartridge clips that require me to use an 1/8" spacer. Now that the cartridge total height has increased, I've had to make adjustments to allow for this by raising the manifold assembly in the vertical post. Only now can I get the top of cartridge body parallel to the record surface with the arc block centered in it's adjustment range. So, now the center of the spindle is farther than I'd like above the height of an lp.
The tonearm exits the back of the armwand: I constructed this with a braid/shield inside the armwand and had it exit around an 1" . This makes it impossible to get overhang exactly right with this cartridge at this point. I'm about 1/32" too far forward.
Obviously, I will correct these issues in the future.
I'm using a double leaf spring, w/ VTF @ 1.5 grams, top fo cart. body parallel with lp, running slightly above 17 psi. All remarks are comparing the just removed Dyna D3.
The first thing that hits me is the bass. It has greater authority, the bass lines are very easy to follow, has greater realism.
The midrange is natural and unforced. The treble is pleasant and has no edge. Not as extended as the Dyna.
Soundstage has nice separation, placement of performers and instuments are nice in the context of the total picture.The spread isn't as wide as the Dyna. The Dyna has more of an airly quality. Soundstage doesn't extend beyond speakers.
Doesn't do audio gymnastics, but that's is fine with me.
I'm loving it already and do not miss the Dyna.
The two lps I've listened to so far are Police "Ghost in the Machine" which was the last lp I heard befor making the switch and Shawn Colvin "Steady On". If you don't already own the latter, I can recommend it.
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Dover: That's true, plus the 1/2 m cable I used.
Frogman: Yes, I'm referring to the top of the mounting plate. After around 6 hours in, I'm noticing the soundstage being better integrated however sibilance has become an issue. Kind of spitty, or sizzle. I can assume that when I'm able to get optimum set-up this issue will resolve itself and the qualities that now seem very good will become even better. Thanks for the additional tips. |
I'm a believer yeah yeah yeaaaaaah, I'm a believer! It's over 15 hours in on the Acutex. My excitement has me reporting back already. Right now, there are two areas my former Dyna set-up surpassed the Acutex. The silences or black background had a sort of erie quality before and the sibilances were handled slightly better. This little cartridge has replaced over $2000.00 worth of equipment, leaving no doubt that it's superior with this arm in a less than optimal set-up. The soundstage really is impressive. I want to say vivid but that might imply too much of something. I'll just say the performers are more "present" without being overimphasized, not beyond the front plane of the speakers. I feel it's more revealing of minute changes in VTA or VTF. |
Frankly, I may consider adding (A) = Anal to the last portion of my "audio creed". I think that is a good thing. |
Dave: I hear what your saying. |
Chris: I fully agree with you. This was the easiest way to get the Acutex up and running. My cartidge clips aren't bendable so my thought is most likely either another wire loom or surgery to my present one. Not sure when I'll get around to it. |
Here it is anyway,... I hope you all are receptive to music recommendations. After all, isn't this what it's all about?
I have 3 here. They are presented in an order of sonics first, then my sense of what most will enjoy... I hope you enjoy! Get these while you can on lp.
Haley Bonar "Big Star", = A big recommendation!
Laura Veirs " July Flame"
(Anything) Neko Case. Most recommended for sonics are, "Canadian Amp", "Blacklisted", Middle Cyclone"....
get them all and remember, these aren't quite as (sonically great as the one's above). Neko has the best voice of any female I've ever heard!
There it is. Sorry to overwhelm the ET thread. |
Chris: Your comment about this hobby having alot to do with resonant behavior got me thinking of some reasons the Acutex may be more suitable with the ET. Setup at proper overhang, the armwand is slid (back) fairly far within it's adjustment range, therefore to me it seems that gives the armwand increased structural ridgitity thereby reducing resonances. Of course, I have limited experience with cartridges compared to most of you. |
Just to say one more thing about listening to the Acutex... I'm enjoying listening more than I have in some time. The album sides seem to be over with before I know it. To me, this is probably due to the "ease of presentation" provided by this cartridge and the totally relaxed feeling I get while listening. |
The weekends... I got it!
I have around 21 hours on the Acutex. Still loving it. I'm becoming one with this transducer and therefore am more aware of what's going on now, that it's becoming of age.
Starting to get slightly annoying in the mid to upper, mid-range. Not really any other issue, well, a little sibilance.
I know exactly what's going on , because I've experienced it in my system and other's, with different cartridges.
If you look back at my intitial posts, you'll see that one of two caveats I mentioned in setting this cartridge up with my current wire loom was not having the center spindle height close to the lp surface. This, as explained in the manual, is very important. I know from personal experience that this will cause the very issue I'm currently experiencing with the Acutex. Annoying in the mid to upper, mid-range, also it can result in splashy treble. Fixing my cartridge clips so I can ultimately lower the armwand assembly at the same time as acheiving top of cartridge being parallel with lp, will absolutely take care of this issue. |
In closing.... it seems unless there is some sort of 'reference' established regarding differences in what we're hearing, the whole process is for not. That's kind of what turned me off with regards to comparing the Acutex in our differing systems. |
Hey Guys, I've been quietly thinking of the next step in regards to my set-up with the Acutex. I've had several thoughts on it after re-reading your posts and thinking of how to better dress a wire loom. I still like my over the spindle option but have new thoughts on the support mechanism and wire/clips.
I want to implement the new support along with different cartridge clips first, so I can get proper cart set-up with my old wire loom, before building a completely new wire loom.
I also want to completely do away with the braid/shield I currently use. I'm thinking of a combo of silk/cotton tubing and/or teflon tubing as part of the support structure and vibration control scheme.
Any thoughts from you guys would be helpful. |
Chris: I am in total agreement concerning the sonic gains you must be getting in having the armboard separate from the plinth. If my room were larger, I'd try the same thing. I do however have some new thoughts in mind for a new armboard (replacing the stock one) that could isolate the ET better. I am going to try this at some point when I get my other issues worked out.
I'm totally happy with the "up @ over", and I have no doubt that with the new mounting structure I'm thinking of (will not be mounted to the TT base @ and I'm going to try Frogman's recommendation of the AN wire), I'll be even happier. One drawback with my current support structure is not very much room to access the lever to pull the spindle back. My new one will be mounted to the Symposium base thereby having better access and less vibration.
BTW Chris, I liked the pic you provided us of the wire Take Five Audio built for you. I loved the attention that was paid to the gradual step down coming out of the WBTs. Was this accomplished with teflon tubing?
Thanks for the compliment on my motor enclosure. I built it myself. My second try at one. I really learned alot from my first try. It may not pass a WAF, but to me the beauty is in it's solid construction and how it performs. I'm still planning on using a bearing/pinch roller scheme something like Dgarretson uses, that to me will be killer when it is finished.
Once you try thread drive, there's no going back, IMO. |
Chris: I am referring to 'plinth' as does VPI when describing their tt designs, and as far as I know, most TT manufacturerers do. I have to say, the wiki link you provided seems to confirm the intent I initially meant. The plinth in my TT is 'the' platform you speak of. The armboard is connected to this 'plinth', (and becomes part of it) that supports the platter and bearing. |
