Alex,
It just goes to show that no matter how good any particular audio product is it won’t please everyone. The Elrogs certainly were not lean sounding in my amplifier/audio system. The tone was full bodied and quite organic and alive in its sonic character.
Furthermore as stated previously some tubes are just better matches with some components compared to others. I’m pretty sure that there is someone somewhere who found the Elrogs too rich and warm in their audio system and as a result are disappointed .
Charles |
I’ve owned Elrog 300B’s and TBH I feel they are overrated. Was disappointed during my ownership and felt the tubes were on the lean sounding side. I contacted Thomas Mayer and his response was they are lower gain 300B’s.
-Alex
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I have a pair of Elrog ER00B about a year old and have had no problems, no noise, just beautiful sound. The only caveat is that I’ve used them lightly in my Vinnie Rossi LIO DHT so the LIO isn’t hard on tubes to begin with, I don’t have a lot hours on them and I no longer use the LIO.
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I'd like to hear directly from present production Elrog 300B users. Until I hear about direct experience as to reliability I can't seriously consider purchasing them.
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Hi Thomas,
You have established a 5 year track record of Elrog tube dependability and minimal if any tube failures. I applaud you for that and making a superb sounding tube reliable. In hindsight it seems that the issue all along was poor tube filaments (Construction, design and quality) which were identified and corrected.
Charles |
Thanks Thomas. My common sense tells me that if you had a large number of warranty claims associated with a particular amplifier, you would probably be aware of it.
My advice to anyone considering use of Elrogs with the Frankenstein amps should have a thoughtful discussion with their chosen distributor. Most people, especially those who have been previously disappointed by the short service life of the older Elrogs when used in the Franks are going to be reluctant to spend lots of money on an uncertain outcome. Too bad, because I found those tubes to be superb in that application.
I've moved on from the Frankenstein amps, but had I not, I would run the experiment myself.
Personally, I am appreciative of your hard work and diligence in getting the issues straightened out. |
brownsfan, Since we are selling mostly through distributors outside Europe, I am not able to track in which amplifiers the tubes are used which are sold through these channels. In Europe I am not aware of Frankenstein users. I did have one customer who uses my preamps who also owned a Frankenstein. I sent him ER300Bs a few years ago. But never heard back and lost contact.
The ER300B was only manufactured for a year and a half under the old company. They brought out the tube too early which caused their bankrucy.
I am producing the tube for 5 years now and have sold many tubes in the meantime |
Vinylsavior, thanks for the update. I am very happy to hear that the issues have been addressed. Are you aware of anyone using the newer Elrogs in the Coincident Frankensteins? The old Elrogs were just glorious in those amps, just could not get an acceptable lifetime in those amps. |
Actually it is 5 years later and the Elrog tubes are being manufactured under my lead longer now than they had been in the old company. We would not have survived 5 years if we had continued to have the problems of the old company
Best regards
Thomas |
Now three years later, I’m curious, has the Elrog reliability been proven? |
WE 300B 5-year warranty is based on a declining scale in which WE will provide a replacement for defective tubes based on a percentage of the current retail price.
- Year 1 – Free of Charge
- Year 2 – 20% of then current Retail price;
- Year 3 – 40% of then current Retail price;
- Year 4 – 60% of then current Retail price;
- Year 5 – 80% of then current Retail price;
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What site? Any chance to preorder or get on a list? Thanks. |
Yes, five year warranty, for real. I had to revisit their site to make sure I had it right. |
Five year warranty? For real?? |
Thanks Charles. The WE re-issue tubes are very intriguing to me. The tubes will be built in their brand new, state of the art tube production facility yet using their "secret sauce " metallurgy from the 1930's. They won't be cheap at $1299/matched pair but they do come with a five year warranty.
I'll check with Aric regarding the EML mesh plates as I'll either get them or the XLS to try while awaiting the release of the WE's. Can't have too many tunes on hand as far as I'm concerned!
Tom |
Tom,
I used a loaned pair of the Sophia Electric Royal Princess for about 3 weeks and they sounded very good in my Frankenstein. I also had a loaned pair of the Western Electric reissue 300b about 4 years ago but didn't like them in my amplifier. It's certainly quite possible that they could be a better match for your amplifier and you're getting a different version (presumably) of this reissued 300b. People say that the Psvane W.E.Replica is a very good sounding 300b option.
Based on my experience I believe that certain 300b tubes sound better in some amplifiers compared to others. Tom I'm very interested in your listening impressions of the Western Electric reissues once you've heard them in your system. Tom depending on the operation points (O.P.) of your Aric Audio amplifier the EML meshplate could be an option.
The only drawback I note with the upper tier 300bs is they are expensive. But I'll concede they do sound fantastic.
Charles |
All this 300B tube talk has me wanting to try another pair. I'm currently using the Sophia Royal Princess 300B and am quite happy with them but I've not had any others to compare to. I'm currently on a waiting list for Western Electrics 80th anniversary 300B re-issue due out this September. I have no idea what they will sound like but I can't resist trying out a re-issue of such a classic.
Good luck with your Ulfbehrts, Jcarcopo. I can't imagine you won't be very happy with them. I don't have the room size for them but I couldn't be happier with the SE's. |
@charles1dad Yes, good call sir. I’m stoked to have 3 fine pairs tubes to roll with. I’m still on the fence on getting a pair of Takatsuki, but parts connexion has them for like $1650 which isn’t bad considering the $2500msrp and the Elrog’s recent bump in price. He listed them on Audiogon a few times, I think I offered him $1450, but he said no. 😂 Now to get Eric some money for some Ulfberts. I have a local audiogoner waiting patiently for up to 2 months to buy my DIs.
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Jdnrbob, Sorry, The SVIIs are Coincident Super Victory IIs and the TEIIs are Coincident Triumph Extreme IIs. The TE IIs are monitors that are no longer manufactured.
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Hi Jcarcopo,
I was impressed with the EML meshplate right out of the box I understand your positive comments, as I said in an earlier post it's a terrific sounding tube as is the XLS. The meshplate is finesse/nuance yet dynamic. The XLS is dynamic yet nuanced. I find both transparent and high resolution.
I could see someone owning both and enjoying their individual differences which are subtle as you note but clearly noticeable. I wish I could use the meshplate in the Frankenstein. Beautiful sound but failed in just a couple of months. I strongly felt that you'd be happy with this tube.
Charles
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@charles1dad I got the mesh plates today! I've got to just say they may very well end up being my new favorite. I perceive better transparency. Micro dynamics seem to be a little more pronounced, but not artificially so. Ambient information seems to be conveyed just better. What really seems to be noticeable is vocals are both startling explosive with dynamics and still nice and smooth. Effortless comes to mind. I might be trading a tad in overall dynamics, but the nuances of improvement seem to be totally worth it. I'm listening to Allison Krauss and Junior Wells/Buddy Guy and the instrumentals seem slightly better delineated with better tonal texture and colors. I hate to say a veil has been lifted because I hate it when reviewers say it ad nauseum, but it's as if I'm noticing an increase of subtle information that was being shadowed by the xls tubes. So far I'm liking the changes, but regardless of the words I'm using this is still a very incremental change at best. It's very much more similiar to the 300b xls than estranged. Startling dynamic vocals and certain instruments popping with more detail is probably the biggest takeaway with the mesh plate. I'm not really a big believer of power tube break in as much as I'm a believer that I adjust to the tubes sound over time. I'll monitor them and do some comparisons after the honeymoon is over and report back in a couple of weeks. |
Hi, can you tell me what speaker manufacturer are the SVII and TEII?
Google got confused.
Bob |
@charles1dad I will update you as soon as I get them. Unfortunately my shipment is delayed with UPS. Probably weather related. The package seems to still be in NY. They claim it will be here tomorrow for delivery, but the tracking hasn't moved since Friday so I'm not holding my breath. I really am a child waiting for Santa when it comes to audio related deliveries. |
H Jcarcopo,
If you have the time and inclination let us know your initial listening impressions of the meshplates. Regarding the speaker dilemma, as long as you have adequate space in your listening room I believe that you can’t go wrong with either choice.
Charles |
@charles1dad 10/4, I'll know sometime today once the tubes arrive. I really can't wait my to get my Ulfberhts in a few weeks. Still torn between the SE DIs and going all in once and for all, hope I'm making the right choice for my room.
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Jcarcopo,
If George is familiar with your amplifier and believes that it's appropriate for the EML meshplate I'd be confident with their use. Unless there's some unforseen synergy issues with your system I believe that you'll really like the meshplate tube. Sonically it was very fine in the Frankenstein .
Charles |
@brownsfan So useful, thanks so much. |
Cal3713, I don't have any threads discussing in detail the amps I have used to drive my SV's. Briefly, when I purchased the SVs, I had only the Coincident Frankenstein and Dynamo amps at my disposal. Initially, I had my medium sized room set up in a long wall orientation, so that I was listening near field. Even in that set up, it was pretty clear from the start that the Franks weren't driving the SVs well. Plugging the SVIIs into my existing system, which had previously used Coincident Triumph Extreme II monitors, was a disappointment. I worked pretty hard on the room, setting it up with a short wall configuration and adding about 3K in room treatments, all of which helped, but it was clear the Franks just weren't going to get it done with reasonable listening levels. Way too much distortion, indicating the 300Bs were being driven too hard. A brief evaluation of the EL34 based dynamo, also rated for 8WPC, was less satisfactory than the Frankensteins. At that point I decided to give the Atma-Sphere M-60s a try. While they certainly don't have the classic 300B sound, I found them a much better match for the SVII speakers. I can tell you this. I spent the better part of a day auditioning the Frankensteins driving a pair of PREs in a smallish room near field, and the Franks seem to do just fine with every kind of music I threw at them. Now, I rarely listen to levels beyond about 95 dB peak, so things could be different in a larger room if you go louder, but as I say, I heard the PRE/Frankenstein pair for a long period and never heard a hint of distortion. Hope this is helpful. |
@charles1dad Thanks for the input on the EML Meshplates. George seemed to think that I should be okay running them in my amp leaving the autobias circuit at 75ma. I think I'll turn it down to 65ma and see how that goes. Frankly I don't know what the operating point for the Diavolo 300B version is and the designer has not returned my email which is typical of Tom Willis if he's off doing an audio event. I assume the lower voltage taps on my power transformer is <375v because I have 450v higher voltage taps if I want to run the Diavolo for ~13wpc with certain tubes (300BXLS, 842vhd, VV32B, etc). I have a fluke multi meter, but honestly something really scares me about probing around high voltage for fear that my old clumsy ass will accidentally blow something probing the wrong thing or I'll slip and kill myself, lol. |
@brownsfan Do you have any threads where you discuss the amp choices for your SV's? I bought some coincident PREs and am trying to figure out how to amplify them (or whether to keep my Franks and find an alternative speaker). It sounds like maybe I'm experiencing some similar issues (I pair the Franks with super eclipse iiis). |
Autospell strikes again, in the final paragraph should be overall subtle "distinctions" not destinations. |
Hi Bill,
Thanks for the thoughtful and clear description of your 2 audio systems.
I can understand not wanting to move equipment around if it isn’t a simple task. Your summary of the 2 respective amplifiers is on the mark. I had an opportunity to hear the Frankenstein and Atma-sphere MA-1 head to head in a friend’s system who had easily driven speakers. Essentially it is
2nd order harmonics(just a dash as you wrote) versus the 3rd order harmonics character of the MA-1.
The Frankenstein came off a bit fuller tone and harmonically richer.
The MA-1 a bit leaner and faster. Overall subtle destinations, both were exceptionally open,transparent and very lively. You have two excellent power amplifiers with their individual sonic signature.
Charles |
Charles,
You ask two great questions for which I have less than clear answers. First of all, I have not evaluated the M-60's driving the TE II's. Getting the SVIIs dialed in upstairs was a bit of a chore, and moving them in and out of the room is a considerable project. Similarly, optimal positioning of the TEII's upstairs would likely require a fairly significant investment of effort, without which, a valid comparison could not be drawn. Moving the M-60's downstairs is also not going to work. There is just not enough room for them in the area in which the downstairs system electronics resides to accommodate them. So that experiment is pretty involved and probably won't do more than satisfy curiosity. As for the essential differences between the two systems playing the same music, it is pretty much what you might expect. The TEII's are the best monitors I have heard (although I can't say I've auditioned scores of monitors), and they mate superbly with the Frankensteins. I do not perceive that the Franks struggle at all to drive the TEIIs, based on the absence of objectionable levels of distortion. While it must be stated that the source and preamp downstairs are not in the same class as the ModWright Sony HAPZ1 and Coincident Statement Line Stage present in the upstairs system, both source and pre are good enough to convey the essential strengths of a 300B DHT based system. That dash of euphonic 2nd order distortion, absent in the M60's, can make for mighty sweet listening. The TEIIs driven by the Frankensteins are going to be pretty hard to beat in my book for Schubert Lieder, violin sonatas, and the like. It is a really good "sooth the savage beast" system perfect for decompression after a day of frustration. As you might expect, the M-60/SVII pairing has a clear edge with larger scale works, especially when there are large swings in the dynamics. When it is time for Mahler or German Opera, it is time to move upstairs. Upstairs has the advantage of dedicated circuits, room treatments, and superior ancillary equipment, so this is not entirely due to differences in the two amps. As you know, I found the Franks to be not up to the task of driving the SVII's. No amount of effort on my part could make this work. So I've got two respectable systems that serve me well. Don't ask for a Sophie's Choice here. I love both systems, and won't give up either. I suspect that if you had both amps as options in your room and your system, you might feel the same, but might have an easier time sticking with the Franks if you had to choose one.
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George is is a honest and straightforward person. I bough my EMLs and Elrogs from him. He firmly stood by me and provided excellent customer service during my Elrog failure episodes.
Charles |
Jcarcopo,
I tried the EML meshplate in my Frankenstein several years ago. The operating points(O.P.) in this amplifier are too demanding for this more delicate 300b and so durability is poor. If a 300b amplifier is gentle in terms of O.P. then the meshplate tube is a very viable option. I will tell you that the EML meshplate is absolutely beautiful sounding.
A bit less dynamic than the XLS but very airy with much finesse. A different sonic perspective from its EML sibbling. If I had the appropriate amplifier I could be exceptionally happy with both of these. The XLS is an ultra built, robust 300b that sounds superb. A wonderful fit with the my Frankenstein SET yielding a powerful, tactile and very natural sonic character.
Charles |
@charles1dad I guess I'll find out if the meshplates are an improvement. I just ordered a pair from George at TubeUSA. |
@charles1dad I'm ecstatic that people are getting such longevity out of the EML tubes. I want to possibly try their 300B Meshplate, any thoughts?
@brownsfan You're quite welcome. Yeah I can't see spending that much on another pair for the subtle differences that I'm hearing, but I do like rolling between them and EML just for the change of pace. It's nice to have choices. |
Bill,
Well you do have 2 very fine audio systems to enjoy when some struggle to develop just one. Of course you know how I value your listening impressions and perspectives. What are the essential differences (If any) you hear between the 2 systems playing the same music. I realize that one uses full range speakers (Super Victory) and the other monitors on stands (Triumph Extreme). If must be quite nice to have both a first rate SET mono blocks and OTL mono block amplifiers for enjoying your classical music library. Have you tried the M 60s with the Triumph Extremes?
Charles |
Charles, I'm sure the EML is going to be just fine. Its been a year since my 2nd set of Elrogs burned out. That should be enough time that a comparison of the Elrogs and EMLs from me will be meaningless. Over the years I've learned that we seem to hear the same things, and value the same things, so I have no inclination to run a very expensive experiment to ensure that that still holds true. I do think that the Elrog design offers much to recommend itself, and I want them to succeed and continue to roll out new products. But, they got off to a rough start, and I suspect they are going to have to offer something better than diminishing returns at premium prices to fully realize their potential as a company. BTW, I am really enjoying the Franks in the downstairs system. Nice having the luxury of a good SET system and a good OTL system based on the M-60's. |
Hi Bill,
It good see a post from you, it reminds me of the of the good old days on this forum 😊. To be fair you just might find the Elrog superior and may prefer it based on your own comparison. The Elrog certainly is a excellent sounding tube with its undeniable strengths. You could find the gap between the Elrog and EML XLS perhaps a bit wider than jcarcopo or myself.
As I wrote above when all is considered sonically across the full spectrum the XLS does acquit itself very well.Bill some say that the Psvane W.E Replica 300b is an excellent tube and probably a bit more organic and midrange centric relative to the EML XLS.
I don’t envision Elrog (or any tube manufacturer) producing a surplus of their tubes and dumping them here at ultra low cost, so I believe we’re safe from tariffs 😊😊.
Charles |
Jacarcopo, Thanks for posting this report. I've exercised considerable discipline in waiting things out for a year before making a decision on Elrog vs EML XLS to replace my Psvane Ts. Much as I loved my Elrogs, I just can't get to a justification for taking that risk again, and even if the reliability issue has been solved, I'm not hearing either you or Charles reporting a huge separation in purely sonic terms. Hopefully, I'll get around to this before a tariff on vacuum tubes is imposed. ;>)
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Hi jacarcopo,
I glad to hear that the current Elrogs are seemingly more durable compared to the earlier versions I had. Despite our different Amplifiers/audio systems I find our listening impressions virtually identical. Yes I’d say that the Elrog is just a little bit smoother, warmer and organic in presentation. The EML XLS is more dynamic and authoritative yet retains an organic character and is by no means a "cool" sonic presentation IMO.
The XLS is as you note very robust and well built. There are reports that early versions of this tube are approaching 40,000 hours of use and yet still are able to test as new. By any standard this is impressive! I did enjoy the Elrog in my Coincident Frankenstein amplifier but honestly I don’t feel as though I’ve lost anything with the EML XLS (Just subtle differences and tradeoffs) . At this juncture I’m very pleased with them and don’t anticipate a tube change.
The XLS isn’t inexpensive itself but does offer excellent sound quality and apparently extraordinary lifespan/ reliability. After over 3 years of heavy near daily use mine tested exactly the same as the day I got them.
Charles |
I just passed the 1 year mark for my Elrog 300B tubes. I will admit that I have also been running the EML 300BXLS in my Art Audio Diavolo 300b SET Copper Reference amplifier as well. So I can say they have about 1000 hours on the Elrogs. Regarding sound quality, I enjoy both tubes equally and wouldn’t say one is particularly better, but the Elrog is a tad smoother, slightly more euphonic, and a tad less dynamic. EML 300bxls comes across as more dynamic and neutral sounding to my ears in comparison. I’m splitting hairs here as they both sound much more alike than different which surprises me as they are constructed differently. They are both superbly made tubes with excellent construction and looks, but the EML 300bxls are structurally built more robustly and are beefier in looks and stature whereas the Elrog feels a bit more delicate, but the Elrog probably would win a beauty content based on looks and that beautiful glow that you won’t get from the EML.
The real question is would I buy them again. Well, at their current prices ($1455), which is more than I paid a year ago, I will not be reinvesting in them because they have priced themselves out of the market imho. They simply aren’t worth the premium for that subtle of a difference. The EMLs have a much better warranty, proven reliability, and a much more affordable price point at around ~$900. More importantly, and correct me if I am wrong, but running a 300bxls at 8wpc should probably last significantly longer than a normal 300b as it’s designed to put out more wattage and they are basically loafing in my amp’s standard 350v/75ma voltage mode. If I flick a switch I installed into my amplifier it switches to the higher 450v voltage transformer windings. I then just tweak the auto-bias circuit pots from 75ma to 110ma & I get about 13wpc which is an added bonus and a very noticeable improvement in performance for certain types of large scale music that the higher wpc output setting does benefit from.
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Interesting remarks from Thomas about 300b operational points, I remeber his amp showing 140mA at the milliamper meter (400V at voltage meter), is that a sum of current for two tubes? |
I have interest in purchasing the Elrog 300Bs. Have there been any other experiences since the last glowing post by diminishing_returns who surprisingly has that one and only post on audiogon? Have the reliability issues been ironed out - any user experiences to share? |
Hi! I hope to have the website updated by end of the month. We are totally busy with production catching up with demand and development of a new tube type to be launched at the High End fair in Munich in May. So the web site had to wait. But there are regular updates on my blog and I will keep posting about the tubes and manufacturing process. See here: http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/search/label/ELROGBR Thomas |
Just wondering if the Web site will be updated soon? |
Hi!
Thanks a lot for your feedback and sound description. T-shirts will be made :-)
We will have them for the High End show in Munich this May. Anybody who plans to visit the Munich show, you can visit us in room F231e
Best regards
Thomas |
I have had Thomas's new 300b's in my Manley Neo Classic Pre for over a month now. Within one day of listening to them I ordered another pair. I can't say enough about Thomas's help and Mr/ Lenz's great customer service. I can also say these tubes don't need any real break in period compared to the others that I have used. I own many -both chinese we300b 1:1 models (psvane and shungyang), Gold Lion 300b, EML, Western Electric 300b (68), Takatsuki TA-300B.
I replaced my Takatsuki TA-300B's and I prefer the sound of the Elrog 300b by a . Now theTakatsuki is a great sounding tube and was my favorite until the Elrog ..yes including the original Western Electrics.
IMO the Elrog is not yet another 300b clone. This tube is very different and sounds more modern and defiantly less pillowy on the bottom end. Transients are much faster and in genera the tube is a joy to listen to.
Thomas, thank you for acquiring Elrog and making the changes you have. I hope to have you build me a new archiving pre for my turntables that bests the Manley Steelhead I am using now. Also, can you start making some Elrog t-shirts already?
(yes I am now an Elrog fanboy)
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Hi!
We have several customers with Lampizator DACs who use the 300B after the major improvement in the filaments in January 2016. None of them have reported any issues. The tubes should be operated like any other 300B. Especially the 45 has a much lower filament voltage than a 300B. So use the 300B setting of your DAC
best regards
Thomas |
