Elrog 300b's for sale. Your thoughts?


I noticed this morning an add for the new Elrogs.   I and many others on the forum ran the experiment when the Elrogs were initially launched.   We found the tubes to be superb sonically, but woefully unreliable.  In fact, the early failure rate on those tubes was apparently 100%.  I and others received replacements that were hand selected for suitability in our particular amps.  In fact one individual had 3 pairs fail.  In my case, I went so far as to purchase a PS audio power plant, having been assured that limiting incoming voltage to 115V would ensure reasonable lifetime for the Elrogs.  Two days ago, one of my replacements failed, after having been nursed along carefully.  Honestly, I doubt the tubes had 600 hours on them.  So the Psvane T1s went back in and I began the period of mourning for my deceased Elrogs.  This morning I awake to the siren song of an ad from a reputable dealer who is announcing availability of the new improved Elrogs with a 1 year warranty.   My initial reaction was, "I don't think so.  Someone else can run the $1200 experiment.  Burned once and lesson learned."  But here is the problem.  If all of Elrogs former customers take that approach, the new Elrog will also fail even if the tubes are good for 10000 hours, simply because no one will buy them.    The tubes are so good that it would be a tragedy if that happened.  So the question to all of you who have already been down this road is this?  What would it take for you to give these tubes a try again?
brownsfan

Showing 11 responses by vinylsavor

Hi All,

my name is Thomas Mayer and I am the founder and owner of Deutsche Elektronenröhren Manufaktur GmbH, which produces the Elrog tubes now. I’d like to share some more insight into the situation. Before I bought the machines of Elrog and started to produce tubes I was a distributor of Elrog tubes and I used them in amps I sell. I went through the same pain as other distributors with the failure of the 300Bs during the first year. Like George Lenz I made sure that each customer who experienced failed tubes either got replacements or his money back.

The company is under my sole management and I handle all customer interaction. You can rest assured that we will honour all warranty claims. In fact we are giving warranty on tubes produced by the old company as long as they are still in their original warranty period. Also be sure that if similar problems pop up again, there will be no denial.

I fully understand the reservations some of you have against Elrgo tubes after all you went through. It will take time until the reputation will return and I understand that people want to see others use the tubes for some significant time without reports of problems. We are prepared to go through this period. In fact the sales of the newly produced tubes has been quite good and we had trouble to keep up with the demand.

About the issues of the tubes. As has been reported, the tubes underwent numerous changes during last year. The most significant one was introduced in January this year, which involved a strengthening of the filaments. 95% of the failures were breaking of one or several of the filament segments. The filaments were very sensitive to overheating and especially inrush current at amplifier turn on.

The filament had been strengthened in January which was well before I bought the assets of the company. I am happy to report that I did not receive a single returned 300B tube which has that change. Also since the tubes are produced under the new company we did not experience a single 300b fault. In the new company we introduced several more changes, like different bases, better, more uniformly shaped glass and improved vacuum. Also much more improved quality control. Although the failure rate of the 300B is 0 so far of course it is unrealistic to expect absolutely 0 returns. A technical device can fail and at some point we will also see some failed 300b. But the experience so far indicates that the percentage will be very low and of course every fail will be handled under warranty. We continue the policy that every customer who experiences a fail has the choice of getting new tubes (with new warranty) or money back.

To show the confidence in the new tubes we extended the warranty from the previous 6 month to 1 year. Warranty will be handled graciously and we will not be fussy about tubes which fail shortly after the warranty expired.

Some more info about the problems of the 2015 tubes: There had been amps in which the failure rate was 100% and amps in which the failure rate even of the early tubes was negligible. For example I have customers who use amps built by me and are still running Elrog 300bs produced in March 2015. The amp with the highest failure rate was the Frankenstein. Before releasing the tubes for the Frank I asked a beta tester to use the tubes in his Frank. This test has been going on for almost 6 month now and the tubes are going strong. Of course a longer time is needed to have statistical relevant data. But we are willing to supply tubes for Franks again and would be thankful for early customers to provide feedback. We are also supplying Lampizator DACs with tubes and they are running fine. No problems whatsoever reported from Lampizator users so far. We do have a list of certain amps which we do not recommend to use with Elrog tubes, but these are known to eat other 300B brands as well. When inquiring for Elrog tubes mentioned your amp and we will tell you if it is on the black list. This black list is very very short and wr do not want to mention the manufacturer publicly.

I was in close contact with George Lenz before I started the new company and he was the first distributor on bard after restart of production. George continues to be the exclusive distributor for Elrog tubes in the US and Canada. I am happy to have such an experienced and customer oriented in George to take care of this area.

I hope this gives some more insight. Don’t hesitate to email me or George if you have further questions

Best regards

Thomas

Hi Al,

yes you are right, each parameter on it's own is within the allowed limits, but the combination of 450V/90mA results in a plate dissipation slightly above the maximum allowed 40W. 450V * 0.09A = 40.5W (40W max)

Best regards

Thomas
Hi!

The 211 and 845 did not have the issues the 300B had. They did however also suffer from poor quality control. This has been improved as with the 300B. The 845 and 211 also got new bases and better glass and the same improvement to the vacuum.

BR

Thomas
All,

thanks a lot for the positive responses and good wishes. As mentioned in my post so far there was a single beta tester who used the tubes in a Frankenstein amp. He had them for almost half a year now. I wanted to have this test first before releasing the tubes for the Frankenstein. Since this release only happened now, there are no additional users of Frank amps yet who have the new Elrog tubes.

@jetrexpo: The choice of operating point depends more on the amp design than on the tube. As long as all max limits are not exceeded any op point which is preferred by the amp designer is ok. 450V/90mA would already be slightly over the limit and thus is not recommended. I personally use fairly traditional op points of about 350V/65-75mA

@brownsfan: The inrush current issue was solely relevant for the filament supplies. When the tube filaments are cold they are basically a short. If the filament supply uses brute force voltage regulation it will push a lot of initial current into them. An external softstart will probably not do much there. We also saw that some current regulated filament supply kits for DIY amps actually start with a current spike and initially put 7V across the filaments before settling to 5V. This is not healthy for any 300B, but it simply killed the early Elrog 300Bs. Also a tube rectified B+ supply doe snot have any affect on slowing the filament inrush current. But as mentioned the tubes are more robust now to be able to withstand some abuse at turn on. Yet a well designed amp with good filament supply and conservative op points will ensure a longer tube life. Not only for Elrog 300Bs but for any brand.

Best regards

Thomas
Hi!

As mentioned above the 211 and 845 did not have the issues which the 300B had. They suffered from the poor quality control as well. During the time I was distributor for Elrog I got only very few returns of 845 tubes.

Life time cannot be generally estimated since it depends a lot on the operating conditions. During the many problems with the 300B we learned that there are a lot of amps which push tubes too hard. This can shorten the life time. op point, usage pattern (on off cycling) and tube rolling all affect lifetime. Normally you should be able to expect 3000-4000 hrs from a thoriated tungsten power tube. This can drop significantly if the tube is abused. It can also extend well beyond that number if the tubes are handled well. The distribution is a kind of bell curve

We also do not make the 845 long enough under the new company to have significant statistical data. I do not expect any issues with the 845 though.

Like the 300B the 845 and 211 carry a full year warranty now.

Best regards

Thomas
Hi!

For the US and Canada please send inquiries to George Lenz of tubesusa.com.

I will update the elrog.com website in January with prices and order information. Until then drop me an email


Best regards

Thomas
Hi!

We have several customers with Lampizator DACs who use the 300B after the major improvement in the filaments in January 2016. None of them have reported any issues. The tubes should be operated like any other 300B. Especially the 45 has a much lower filament voltage than a 300B. So use the 300B setting of your DAC

best regards

Thomas
Hi!


Thanks a lot for your feedback and sound description. T-shirts will be made  :-)
We will have them for the High End show in Munich this May. Anybody who plans to visit the Munich show, you can visit us in room F231e


Best regards

Thomas
Hi!

I hope to have the website updated by end of the month. We are totally busy with production catching up with demand and development of a new tube type to be launched at the High End fair in Munich in May. So the web site had to wait. But there are regular updates on my blog and I will keep posting about the tubes and manufacturing process. See here:

http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/search/label/ELROG

BR

Thomas
Actually it is 5 years later and the Elrog tubes are being manufactured under my lead longer now than they had been in the old company. We would not have survived 5 years if we had continued to have the problems of the old company

Best regards

Thomas
brownsfan, Since we are selling mostly through distributors outside Europe, I am not able to track in which amplifiers the tubes are used which are sold through these channels. In Europe I am not aware of Frankenstein users. I did have one customer who uses my preamps who also owned a Frankenstein. I sent him ER300Bs a few years ago. But never heard back and lost contact.

The ER300B was only manufactured for a year and a half under the old company. They brought out the tube too early which caused their bankrucy. 

I am producing the tube for 5 years now and have sold many tubes in the meantime