Charles, thanks for you comments. I agree. While a 1 year warranty may be more or less standard, in view of the history of the tube, one might have expected a longer warranty as a statement of confidence. I am also troubled by what I read in the material provided by Al, where the statement runs along the lines of correcting the issue that caused failure in some amps. That sounds to me like they are still in denial. The information that I have from my dealer is that the failure rate for his customers was 100% in a variety of amps. He did not have a single customer that did not experience premature failure. Unless I see more, I'm going to have to sit this one out and go with the EML tube. I want the new Elrog to succeed, but I don't need any more weasel words, and I'm not placing a $1200 bet on something that looks like a long shot from my frame of reference. |
Stringreen, I can say that the Elrogs are substantially better than the Psvane Ts that came with my amps. Well worth the price, provided they last. I spent most of my life using SS equipment. The Elrogs in my Coincident Frankensteins easily surpasses any other amp I have personally heard, either tube or SS, including some that are far more expensive. Charles and others have much more extensive experience with a wide variety of different 300b tubes.
Mikelavigne, I had read of your experience with the Elrogs in your Lampi. I am eager to hear of success stories with the Elrogs. I'm just not sure how relevant use in your Lampi DAC using the 101D setting is to what is likely to be a more demanding power amp utilization. BTW, I use the WE 101D replicas in my preamp. The fact that the Elrogs bettered them and some NOS 45's is a testament to how good the Elrog sounds.
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Thanks Al. I had previously read the information for which you provided a link. Your question is a good one, and had occurred to me also. I trust that information will be available to us shortly, provided that even 2-3 "beta testers" take the bait. But brf's comment is spot on. The two principals who were responsible for failure of the original company are deeply involved in the current effort. Their reputation is less than stellar. Remember that there was a persistent denial that there was an issue with the tubes. The fault was this amp or that amp, never mind the fact that the tubes apparently failed in every amp they tried. Lots of us will be skeptical of their current claims without empirical substantiation, i.e, we find that people are getting 2-3 years of service out of these tubes. If 90% of there potential customer base waits 3 years the new company will fail. The purpose of this thread is for the new company and the US distributor to gain an understanding of the magnitude of the public relations nightmare they are up against with these tubes. They will need to explain to me why I should take this risk instead of buying, let's say, the excellent sounding and reliable EML 300b's at 60% of the price of the new Elrogs. Sorry, but I can't justify $1200 a year for one pair of tubes no matter how good they sound. I don't expect more than a 1 year warranty under normal circumstances, but this is not a normal circumstance. |
Thomas, Thanks so much for your response. This dialogue with the company is what I hoped would happen when I opened the thread. I am encouraged by your candor, attitude, and also by the information you have provided on the changes to the tubes and resulting gains in reliability. As I have said, the Elrog 300b is a tube of stunning beauty. I want Elrog to succeed and have the opportunity to add additional tubes to its catalogue as time goes on. I would encourage you to drop by this thread on occasion to provide updates on tube reliability.
I also own Coincident Frankenstein amps. As you know from my post, when I received my replacement tubes I bought a PS audio P10 so that I could limit the voltage. In addition, the P10 provides for a soft start up where the initial inrush is limited to 1/2 current for the first 5 seconds. I almost never listen for more than about 2.5 -3 hrs, so I had hoped to make the tubes work. I had intended to go with the EML xls as a replacement, and may still go that route. But I am going to put this decision off for a few months to see what transpires with your recent production tubes in the Coincident amps. Can you share with us the number of customers currently running your new tubes in their Frankensteins? I am personally willing to consider the Elrogs again based on your comments, but I would like some statistically significant data on the tube lifetime in the Franks. I don't expect 0% failure, of course.
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Jacarcopo, Thanks for posting this report. I've exercised considerable discipline in waiting things out for a year before making a decision on Elrog vs EML XLS to replace my Psvane Ts. Much as I loved my Elrogs, I just can't get to a justification for taking that risk again, and even if the reliability issue has been solved, I'm not hearing either you or Charles reporting a huge separation in purely sonic terms. Hopefully, I'll get around to this before a tariff on vacuum tubes is imposed. ;>)
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Charles, I'm sure the EML is going to be just fine. Its been a year since my 2nd set of Elrogs burned out. That should be enough time that a comparison of the Elrogs and EMLs from me will be meaningless. Over the years I've learned that we seem to hear the same things, and value the same things, so I have no inclination to run a very expensive experiment to ensure that that still holds true. I do think that the Elrog design offers much to recommend itself, and I want them to succeed and continue to roll out new products. But, they got off to a rough start, and I suspect they are going to have to offer something better than diminishing returns at premium prices to fully realize their potential as a company. BTW, I am really enjoying the Franks in the downstairs system. Nice having the luxury of a good SET system and a good OTL system based on the M-60's. |
Charles,
You ask two great questions for which I have less than clear answers. First of all, I have not evaluated the M-60's driving the TE II's. Getting the SVIIs dialed in upstairs was a bit of a chore, and moving them in and out of the room is a considerable project. Similarly, optimal positioning of the TEII's upstairs would likely require a fairly significant investment of effort, without which, a valid comparison could not be drawn. Moving the M-60's downstairs is also not going to work. There is just not enough room for them in the area in which the downstairs system electronics resides to accommodate them. So that experiment is pretty involved and probably won't do more than satisfy curiosity. As for the essential differences between the two systems playing the same music, it is pretty much what you might expect. The TEII's are the best monitors I have heard (although I can't say I've auditioned scores of monitors), and they mate superbly with the Frankensteins. I do not perceive that the Franks struggle at all to drive the TEIIs, based on the absence of objectionable levels of distortion. While it must be stated that the source and preamp downstairs are not in the same class as the ModWright Sony HAPZ1 and Coincident Statement Line Stage present in the upstairs system, both source and pre are good enough to convey the essential strengths of a 300B DHT based system. That dash of euphonic 2nd order distortion, absent in the M60's, can make for mighty sweet listening. The TEIIs driven by the Frankensteins are going to be pretty hard to beat in my book for Schubert Lieder, violin sonatas, and the like. It is a really good "sooth the savage beast" system perfect for decompression after a day of frustration. As you might expect, the M-60/SVII pairing has a clear edge with larger scale works, especially when there are large swings in the dynamics. When it is time for Mahler or German Opera, it is time to move upstairs. Upstairs has the advantage of dedicated circuits, room treatments, and superior ancillary equipment, so this is not entirely due to differences in the two amps. As you know, I found the Franks to be not up to the task of driving the SVII's. No amount of effort on my part could make this work. So I've got two respectable systems that serve me well. Don't ask for a Sophie's Choice here. I love both systems, and won't give up either. I suspect that if you had both amps as options in your room and your system, you might feel the same, but might have an easier time sticking with the Franks if you had to choose one.
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Cal3713, I don't have any threads discussing in detail the amps I have used to drive my SV's. Briefly, when I purchased the SVs, I had only the Coincident Frankenstein and Dynamo amps at my disposal. Initially, I had my medium sized room set up in a long wall orientation, so that I was listening near field. Even in that set up, it was pretty clear from the start that the Franks weren't driving the SVs well. Plugging the SVIIs into my existing system, which had previously used Coincident Triumph Extreme II monitors, was a disappointment. I worked pretty hard on the room, setting it up with a short wall configuration and adding about 3K in room treatments, all of which helped, but it was clear the Franks just weren't going to get it done with reasonable listening levels. Way too much distortion, indicating the 300Bs were being driven too hard. A brief evaluation of the EL34 based dynamo, also rated for 8WPC, was less satisfactory than the Frankensteins. At that point I decided to give the Atma-Sphere M-60s a try. While they certainly don't have the classic 300B sound, I found them a much better match for the SVII speakers. I can tell you this. I spent the better part of a day auditioning the Frankensteins driving a pair of PREs in a smallish room near field, and the Franks seem to do just fine with every kind of music I threw at them. Now, I rarely listen to levels beyond about 95 dB peak, so things could be different in a larger room if you go louder, but as I say, I heard the PRE/Frankenstein pair for a long period and never heard a hint of distortion. Hope this is helpful. |
Jdnrbob, Sorry, The SVIIs are Coincident Super Victory IIs and the TEIIs are Coincident Triumph Extreme IIs. The TE IIs are monitors that are no longer manufactured.
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Vinylsavior, thanks for the update. I am very happy to hear that the issues have been addressed. Are you aware of anyone using the newer Elrogs in the Coincident Frankensteins? The old Elrogs were just glorious in those amps, just could not get an acceptable lifetime in those amps. |
Thanks Thomas. My common sense tells me that if you had a large number of warranty claims associated with a particular amplifier, you would probably be aware of it.
My advice to anyone considering use of Elrogs with the Frankenstein amps should have a thoughtful discussion with their chosen distributor. Most people, especially those who have been previously disappointed by the short service life of the older Elrogs when used in the Franks are going to be reluctant to spend lots of money on an uncertain outcome. Too bad, because I found those tubes to be superb in that application.
I've moved on from the Frankenstein amps, but had I not, I would run the experiment myself.
Personally, I am appreciative of your hard work and diligence in getting the issues straightened out. |
