Easy to drive, outstandingly natural sound from 40-50 Hz up.....AN-E, O/96, others?
If my goal were to find
natural-sounding, dynamic, and efficient speakers that can be driven with a somewhat lower-powered a (i.e., 50-watt SS) amplifier, and that work well with a variety of music, would I be looking at AN-Es, O/96s, or which others? I am not particularly interested in using a 10-20 watt SET, but being able to use something lower-powered than the 300-watt amplifiers required for my 85dB speakers would open up a lot of other amplifier options and simplify things for me. I have two fairly high-quality powered subs so the goal would be to fill my (moderately large) room from 40-50 Hz and up and let the subs handle the lower registers. Any thoughts on the two speakers listed, or recommendations for others?
I demoed the Cube Audio Nenuphar again yesterday and it’s a fantastic speaker. I’ve posted a few thoughts about it over on its own thread. If you’re looking for a Harbeth, Spendor, AN sound, this speakers might not be for you. I also demoed the Odeon No. 28/3. It’s only 93dB efficient so it’s pretty easy to drive but probably not in the ’high efficiency’ category. Ive heard a number of every expensive horns and these are the only ones that have ever really impressed me. I listened at around 90dB for over an hour with absolutely no fatigue and I never noticed any of the typical horn drawbacks. As one would expect, the dynamics were there in spades. What floored me, however, was the fact that this modest system was the most emotionally communicative system I’ve ever heard. The speakers are so musical. They convey all the emotion and intention of the musicians. They’re really soulful yet spacious and room energizing. I find those two qualities don’t always go together. They also have really nice shove, grunt, and testicular fortitude. I mostly listen to rock and lots of 70s rock and these do that wonderfully. But, they also convey so much emotion in singer-songwriter music and they keep everything sorted in complex post-rock stuff with orchestra. The dealer and I loved both the Nenuphar and the Odeon and I suspect upon hearing both in that system many if not most listeners would choose the former -- they are really special.
This is what I want, and have ( thanks to the genius of PWK ) : Very high efficiency; Very low distortion; Very broad dynamic range ; Controlled directivity; Extremely fast and nimble; Flat frequency response; Excellent and honest tonal balance; Very coherent, top to bottom, Natural sound of all instruments and voices; Lack of edginess, shrillness or honk ( when I, and some others, get done with them ); Very detailed, what goes in, comes out; Excellent presentation of image and space of the recording; Does not care of the genre of music playing, including soundtracks; Works with ANY amplifier; easy room set up; Not expensive; Allows the immersion of being in the audience of the actual recording; Always modifications, tweaks, updates, parts available, to take them to whatever level you want. Resulting in : Always wanting, and enjoying, listening to music, at any chosen volume level. BTW, you can easily use them for Karaoke night ( plug in a mic or guitar mixer ). I am sure I left some things out. Horns are the real deal, and yes, go listen to some, in a proper set up. No need to be a Klipsch, as there are others. Anyway.....enjoy your journey. MrD.
too strong? Nah, just too busy here. I wish I would have tried this stuff years ago. It is tough to switch directions now that I have my speaker system pretty well dialed in for great sound, but they are inefficient and need lots of power to sound their best. There is a 50 watt amp I would like to try but it wouldn't stand a chance with my speakers. The amps I have are 90+ percent of the way to nirvana but just falling short in one area. Since I already own the speakers, trying different amps until I find something better may still be the easiest direction for me. Problem is, I have tried several pretty good amps and the amps I own now are better than all of the others I have tried, and I don't want to spend a fortune trying high powered amps. One recent change I made is to try going DAC-direct, first with the Metrum Jade I recently purchased for a second system and then just this week with Metrum's flagship Adagio I purchased after hearing the Jade. The Adagio has been warming up for a couple of days and I will get to listen to my system without my preamp this weekend.
I was hoping to see some recommendations in this thread for relatively high sensitivity speakers (like 95dB +) that can be driven hard with 50 wpc and that display tonal density, strong dynamics, and a natural sound without added edginess, shrillness, honking, or other issues sometimes reported with horns and other really high efficiency speakers. I think there are a few of those types of speakers mentioned here that would be worth hearing, but I am not convinced Klipsch speakers meet all of those goals....although there is an interesting pair of Belle Klipsch speakers that were recently listed for sale. I need to go to show where I can hear some different high efficiency speakers.
Mitch, a few things. Looking at your systems page ( very nice ) the Khorns would be too far apart from one another. The Lascalas would be my choice ( why I have the Lascalas as well ). Yes, I had a side business, and started damping horns ( and other areas of speakers / equipment ) 50 years ago. My ears recognized the " ringing " and resonances that was very apparent, and I used products such as mortite, clay, and then as time went on, Dynamat, and self adhesive roofing repair tapes, such as Peel and Seal and U Seal, available at Lowes and HD. Significant improvements in sq. I did not stop at horns, as I do the driver baskets of woofers, the magnet assemblies, and in the case of mid horns that are held with brackets at the rear of the horn, to the cabinets ( such as the Khorn and Lascala, as there are others ), these areas as well, as they vibrate and resonate with higher volume. I am a Klipsch Heritage fanboy, as I find the 5 original Heritage models designed by the one and only PWK himself, to be the best at their respective price points, yesterday, and still today. Many others feel the same, many others do not. I was in the audio business, in NY, for over 40 years, sold at stores, was a rep and did consulting. I owned a lot, and heard just about everything. I do not claim to have the best ears, nor be the most knowledgeable in sound system set up. Admittedly, there are many speakers that do some things very well. What I do want to say is, I discovered, a long time ago, a reproduction of musical playback, that has stood MY test of time, and has "easily " satisfied my listening desires, and pleasures, with every type of music available, compared to others. With tubes and solid state, with low power and high power, with analog and with digital, with music and movie soundtracks, it is here. Klipsch, as a company, keeps " the mans " dreams and designs going, after he is gone, and they are still selling, here and abroad. You are welcome to pm me, or keep this as an open discussion. Enjoy ! MrD.
Take a serious look into the Spatial Audio speakers. Their entry models have a coaxial compression driver (midwoofer functions as horn like Tannoys) with 93db sensitivity. Zero horn "honk." The nominal impedance of their Triode Master M3s/M4s is 12ohms.
I’ve heard some of the other speakers mentioned here, including the ANs and Spendors, and the performance of even the entry-level Spatials is on par. I was almost deterred by their pro-driver compliment but one must keep in mind they are custom spec’d by Spatial, not off-the-shelf units. They can produce high SPLs with just a few watts but are robust enough to power an auditorium.
I’m very particular about tonal balance, hence my being a fan of Spendor Classics. The Spatials produce a nearly identical midrange (a little better honestly), a bit more sparkle on the top end and superior decay. Never fatiguing. The bass is incredibly defined and better than anything else I’ve had in house. I have their smallest model in a rather large room and the bass impact/slam is still very good. Best thing about them is you can get all this performance for 1/2 the price of comparable ANs or Spendors. 60 day in-home trial.
Big Tannoy - the legacy arden do 35hz - 30kHz and an easy 93db driving speaker. But O93 should be cheaper and easier to pick up in the US (tannoys in UK relatively cheaper $7000 new for the Ardens) and I would have prob been keen on them and Audionote AN’s as alternative. Think all 3 are ones to lose yourself in music with.
@mrdecibel I could do corners, or not, so either
Klipschorn or LaScala are possible, and the room is big enough. What do you mean by;
"when I get done with a pair, none of the nasties are present"
Are you talking about making modifications you have learned over the years, or do you have a business to modify/improve Klipsch Heritage speakers? Pardon please if I have missed something earlier.
Absolutely ! However, K horns need corners. The Lascala does not, and benefits from a pair of subs from 50 hz down. I have been a Klipsch Heritage fanatic for 50 years, and when I get done with a pair, none of the nasties are present. Just beautiful, realistic sounding, fun and involving performances, right in your listening space.
How about Klipschorns? How good are they? Can they be set up or modified (if necessary) to avoid thinness, honkyness, or other horn-related aberrations? Can I get the exciting dynamics and a rich tonality from an easy to drive horn speaker?
Exlibris wrote: "Thanks Duke. I’ve been thinking of doing that, at your suggestion, and have been looking at the Townshend maximum supertweeters."
I’d look primarily at adding some rear-firing energy from about 12 kHz to about 20 kHz... the Fostex FT17H is imo a fairly low-cost way of exploring this idea.
"Sometimes it’s as if my system has even less jump after 2 or 3 hours of listening. I’ve often wondered if this a subjective thing or if it was something in my amplification chain. Reading a post on another forum, the poster said this could be caused by hot speaker voice coils."
That would be my guess.
A 50-watt peak is like touching a 50-watt soldering iron to your woofer’s voice coil. It heats up instantly but cools down slowly. The voice coil’s resistance goes up with temperature, and the motor structure is the primary "heat sink" that the voice coil radiates into (the air inside the box is also heated). As the motor gets pretty hot there is a reduction of magnetic strength, which comes back once the magnet cools off. This is one of the downsides of going with drivers that have relatively low thermal capacity.
Thermal compression is a big consideration in prosound, and imo it is relevant but under-appreciated in home audio. Floyd Toole told me of some of the rapid-onset thermal effects he observed during his tests, and said that this is an area which has not yet been adequately investigated.
As a ballpark rule of thumb, thermal compression is typically about 1 dB at 10% of a driver’s rated AES power handling, and typically 3-4 dB at its AES rated power handling (which in turn is 1/2 its "music program" or "continuous" rating, and typically 1/4 of its "peak" rating.) This refers to the long-term compression effect once the voice coil and motor temperature have stabilized, so it takes a while set in. There are also the short-term effects that I spoke with Toole about, and my assumption is that there’s some correlation.
Not surprisingly, prosound-type drivers tend to have negligible thermal compression at quite loud home audio levels because they have both high efficiency and high thermal capacity. The challenge is, beating prosound drivers into submission so that they don’t have any distracting colorations. That’s what I try to do, because imo they have enough inherent advantages that it’s worth the effort. Obviously most speaker designers feel otherwise!
Thanks Duke. I've been thinking of doing that, at your suggestion, and have been looking at the Townshend maximum supertweeters.
I'll add one thing... Sometimes it's as if my system has even less jump after 2 or 3 hours of listening. I've often wondered if this a subjective thing or if it was something in my amplification chain. Reading a post on another forum, the poster said this could be caused by hot speaker voice coils. It's a drawback of a speaker being pushed beyond its natural efficiency for a long time.
Exlibris wrote: "The reason I’m interested in making a change is not because adding subs threw off the balance, it’s because I find the speakers to be a bit "sleepy."
You might try a rear-firing tweeter to add a little bit more top-end energy to the reverberant field. This could theoretically "wake up" the tonal balance a bit WITHOUT screwing up the first-arrival sound and therefore the imaging.
The tweeter could actually sit on the floor behind the Audio Notes, facing upwards. You want to be sure the path lengths from the rear tweeters to your ears are at least a foot longer than the path lengths from the main tweeters to your ears, or else they could screw up the imaging. Probably just a first order crossover (series capacitor and maybe a level-adjusting series resistor),with the calculated F3 being fairly high. To avoid dropping the impedance curve very much, I suggest starting out with a high efficiency tweeter so that you need to add some series resistance to pad it down. Fostex comes to mind.
I'm sure there would be some trial-and-error involved in sorting out the component value(s) for the highpass filter, but ten or fifteen bucks worth of basic capacitors and resistors would get you started, and then you could opt for the more expensive parts once you have the values sorted out.
@exlibris Where did you find a good-sounding high pass filter made with high quality components, or did you make one yourself. I have looked at Vandersteen's M7-HP, which is made for their Model 7 series speakers and appears to be well-constructed, but it costs $2K/pair and rolls off from 100 Hz, which is higher than I want. https://www.vandersteen.com/categories/crossovers
I actually do use a high-pass filter between the preamp and the main amp. The main speakers are now down 3dB at 60Hz (9dB at 30Hz etc.). The device is passive and uses a small Audio Note UK capacitor. This takes a lot of strain off the main amplifier. 60Hz and below is largely covered by the subwoofer system.
I agree with what you say: "a delicious richness about them that really stood out from the crowd. One could easily get totally lost in the music listening to them. My impression was that they’d be totally non-fatiguing to listen to all day long."
The reason I’m interested in making a change is not because adding subs threw off the balance, it’s because I find the speakers to be a bit "sleepy." They simply don’t do anything wrong but they don’t generally grab me. My mind can easily wander when listening. The reason I said I may never replace them is because I can listen for hours on end with absolutely no fatigue. I’ve tried them with many different amps of different strengths and in an almost infinite number of positions within my room but the speakers simply are what they are. They sound best in the corners, set up exactly how Audio Note (and I assume Peter Snell) say to set them up. Driving them in this position with 2, 4, 8, 16, 20 or 250 watts doesn’t bring about the difference that I’m looking for.
But, in the end, I will not trade long-term listening enjoyment for excitement.
I agree with your thoughts on the AN Duke. Another option might be to use a high-pass filter like Vandersteen uses, and then roll the subs up to match the rolled off frequency and output of the main AN speakers. Of course you may accomplish the same thing more simply by moving them out from the wall but the high pass would (theoretically) reduce the work required by the main amplifier.
BTW, I would like to hear your swarm system some day. Adding a second Aerial sub was a huge benefit to the sound of my system, in particular by better controlling bass in my room.
"I’ve had Audio Notes for the past 7 years and haven’t found anything yet to replace them. Maybe I never will."
I always thought the big Audio Note’s had a delicious richness about them that really stood out from the crowd. One could easily get totally lost in the music listening to them. My impression was that they’d be totally non-fatiguing to listen to all day long. Don’t think I ever heard the small ones.
The only concern I might have is this: They are so well-balanced as-is that adding subwoofers might tend to tip the tonal-balance teeter-totter too much towards the low end. Not an insurmountable problem, just something to take into account when dialing in the subs. For instance, one might be able to restore balance just by pulling the Audio Notes forward a bit and away from their recommended boundary-reinforcement-intensive placements.
Thank you very much for the compliments Charles. I'll be sure to post my listening impressions of this demo and any other demos that I do. I suspect that I will also be demoing the Odeon No. 28/3.
Exlibris, I’m familiar with Thomas Mayer amplifiers/preamplifiers and they occupy a very elevated performance tier and are universally acclaimed for their magnificent built and sound quality. I commend you for your taste. I’ve no doubt that your amp pairing with the Nenuphar will be simply splendid. If you have the time I’d love to know your listening impressions. I looked at your system page and you have a wonderful system. The Thomas Mayer amplifiers are gorgeous 😊. Charles
Thanks Charles. My amp is made by Thomas Mayer and his designs and builds are, I believe, generally well respected. I think it should be a good match for the speakers. I tend to use 45s more than 2A3s but I will bring both tube types to the audition.
Exlibris, The owner of the Nenuphar I referred to uses a 2A3 SET amplifier and confirms it works exceedingly well with this speaker. If the chosen low powered amplifier is of sufficient quality the Nenuphar will exploit it attributes and provide a beautiful listening experience. I hope your upcoming audition goes well. Charles
I have a demo of the Cube Audio Nenuphar arranged for early April. These speakers are at the top of my shortlist. I'm fortunate to be able to demo them using my 45/2A3 amp. (The manufacturer uses a 45/2A3 amp
at shows.)
AN-15 Alinco Classic speakers are the only speakers that have gotten me to the I am there point, but they are extremely revealing thus intolerant of poor upstream gear.
Try Audiokinesis Jazz Module 2.0 + Space Generator..it will blow your mind. It reaches down to 25Hz in my room and amazes each and every friend who visited me.
Exlibris, I would give the Cube Audio Nenuphar serious attention. I know an owner of them who’s opinion I have considerable regard for. He says this is a superb and very natural sounding speaker. Open sounding to the point that they seem to completely disappear in the listening room. Also an exceptionally easy impedance load. Perhaps one the very finest single driver speakers currently available. Charles
I don't really have any speakers that meet mitch2's requirements. My "fullrange" speakers go deeper than 40-50 Hz, and my "made to be used with subs" speakers cut off higher than that, in anticipation of the Swarm doing a better job than a pair of speakers can in the bass region.
For instance the main speakers I showed at RMAF last year are designed to cross over to subs up in the mid-to-upper 60's. I think they meet at least some of the other criteria though (benign impedance curve, lower-90's efficiency, drivers with characteristics that imply good dynamics). I won't make sound quality claims because who's gonna believe a manufacturer's opinion of his own products?
I heard the Cube Audio Nenuphar at the CAF and it sounded really good. Bass went surprisingly deep for a single driver speaker and the midrange was very open and had no shout.
The full range speaker at the top of my list is the Cube Audio Nenuphar. It has a 10" driver that is made in-house. I've also heard good things about the full range drivers from AER. My exposure to full range speakers is, however, very limited. I've demoed a number of horn speakers but have never truly enjoyed any that I have heard.
Contrast Audio Model One; 16 ohms, 93 dB. Audiokinesis- Duke has always made great speakers that are easy to drive. Many 'full range' speakers like Lowther and Voxitiv can make 50Hz. Voxitive had a very nice sounding room at RMAF; their drivers are around 100dB.
Exlibris, I have the Eufrodite Ellipses with the newer woofers. In my room and set up the speakers are very cohesive and speak with one voice. They do like breathing room.
Show conditions aren’t the best place to hear them. At Jeff’s (Highwater Sound) place they sound much better.
I did like the Hornings I heard at a show once but I found that the bass woofers did not integrate with the driver for the highs and mids. It could have been the room, but it sounded like two completely different speakers.
I have AN-Es right now but am looking for an alternative. The ones I'd like to demo are: Charney Concerto Zu (not sure which model) Cube Audio Nenuphar Pure Audio Project Trio15
I'm a little hesitant about going for anything with down-firing bass woofers because I live in a condo. If this wasn't a concern I'd be interested in:
@jond Your questions raise some good points and even though the thought of simplifying my system is attractive, the simplest route is probably to stick with the speakers and amps that I already own. I do have a 50-watt amp in mind but for the power I need to drive my current speakers, it just isn't in the cards.
There are some very interesting speaker choices provided in this thread so I expect others will benefit from the responses here. I wish I had posted this 20 years ago when I started down this audio road. Using more efficient speakers would have opened up a much larger variety of amplification choices, virtually all of which would have been less expensive
than the amps I need to drive my inefficient speakers.
I am curious about any downsides of some of the efficient speakers mentioned here, such as the Klipsch Heresys or AN-Es, like midrange colorations or other sonic aberrations. I have a friend who has been using the Heresys for years and likes them.
Kalili...I tried them on stands as that seemed like a good idea, but they sound better on the floor with their original their little tilt back stands. I now have them 3 feet from the front wall pointed straight out with no tow-in, about 6 feet apart (measured from the center of the speakers), and 9 feet from my fat head. Great "holographic" or "realistic" or "psychedelic" or something sound, as it's like the musicians are right there in my listening space attempting eye contact and mumbling things about me...hey...they're watching my every move...gotta get out...
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