the natural sound of a cymbal

Do you own the Sheffield Drum Record?

i own the drum record. i was hoping someone might recommend a mapleshade disc.

Opeth "Damnation"
Great Jazz Trio "Direct From LA"

While it is just a "normal" non-audiophile CD, I find that Dave Grusin's "Homage to Duke" is a superb recording and has some of the most natural sounding cymbals of any redbook digital recording I've heard.

Ramsey Lewis "Hang on Ramsey"LP recorded live.

Any Keith Jarrett Trio on ECM.

I find that if you get the entire drum kit right everything else sounds right too.

Are you looking for the sound of(let's say) Paiste, Sabian, Meinl, Zildjian or Wuhan? Further: If Meinl(for instance), their Classic, HCS, MCS, Candela, Generation X, etc. Series of cymbal? Every brand, and all their individual cymbal lines, will have a different sound. Unless you know what brand and series of cymbal a drummer is using, and are familiar with that particular cymbal set's sound(live); you can't know if the sound you're getting is, "natural."

If someone tells you they can ascertain what brand of cymbals are being played on a recording, it is because of one of the following.....

1. They are delusional.
2. They are lying.
3. See numbers 1. and 2. above.

You ain't seen nothing yet. Some people can hear the directionality of a fuse in an AC circuit.

While I personally couldn't tell you about cymbals, I imagine that any number of drummers could identify different brands in much the same way pianist can tell whether it's a Steinway, Bosendorfer or Yamaha.

Just because you can't doesn't mean other well trained listeners can't too!

You did read that I said on a recording, right? There's no doubt in my mind that a trained ear can tell the difference live. Man can not produce a recording that captures the true sound of a live instrument. Close maybe, but no cigar, as the old adage goes.

I've read what you've wrote twice now and I'll agree with you that you can't tell the difference.

I would tend to believe that Tpreaves is correct.

If one could hear those differences on a recording, that would be a very good recording/playback system.

If you can hear it live, you should be able to hear it on a very good playback system.

I can hear the effects of humidity on the sound of a symbol with my eyes closed and a glass of red wine.

A good man knows his own limitations, but IS NOT stupid enough to assume everyone else has the same. The very first recording mentioned(Sheffield Drum Record); includes in it's liner notes the differences one can hear ON THE RECORD(or CD), between the cymbals Ron Tutt is using, from those of Jim Keltner's. If YOU can't hear the differences, whether it be a result of an unresolving system, a poorly recorded set, or your own lack of aural accuity/training: Sorry about your luck, but that does not apply to everyone! The sounds and effects of various cymbals(brands and series) are NOT subtle in the least, and are easily discernable, on a decent recording(given a resolving playback system). My guess would be that most of you nay-sayers can't tell the difference between the sounds of a Crash, Crash-Ride, China, Hi-Hat, Splash or Bell cymbal LIVE, let alone on a recording.

Mr T: Another excellent recording(re: cymbals), is the original Columbia(CS8192) 'Time out'. I've still got a pressing from 1971, that captures Joe Morello's(may he rest in peace) silky Zildjian cymbals beautifully(especially on 'Take Five').

I agree with Rodman999 assuming one has a great system and ears and even cares. Humidity does in fact change sound as an FYI.

I couldn't bear reading all of the responses but if what I suggest has been said then just double it. Use your normal recordings and listen if you must for cymbal decal etc. Those sounds BTW are generally easy to pickout. If they sound natural to you, then you have a good set up, it's that simple.

A point to be aware of about the Sheffield Drum Record, especially by those who may consider purchasing it after reading some of the posts above.

From the liner notes of the Track & Drum Record CD:

The analogue disc was played back with a Technics SP 15 turntable and a Shure V15 Type V assembly attached to a SME 3012R arm. The pre-amp consisted of a pair of refurbished Marantz Audio Consolettes set to the RIAA Curve. The analogue signal was converted to a 96kHz 24 bit PCM signal using a Lucid A/D converter ....

I have the original direct-to-disk Track Record LP (but not the Drum Record), as well as the CD (which combines both Records). IMO the Track Record LP is a treasure, certainly in terms of sonics. IMO the CD does not come remotely close to being in the same league.

I say that as someone who is not anti-digital in the least, and also as someone who owned a pair of Marantz 1 Consolettes about 20 years ago, which were also a treasure.

Regards,
-- Al

Yellowjackets Altered State, Time Squared and Timeline.

Zildjian cymbals are used on these recordings.

Yelowjackets Time Squared and Altered State recorded with Sabian cymbals. Timeline Zildjian cymbals.

Re the ability to identify the brand of cymbals on a recording. Drummers most certainly can. I am not a drummer, but I can tell you that it is not difficult for me to identify when (for instance) Michael Brecker used his Otto Link mouthpiece, and when he used his Guardala. Likewise, when Phil Woods used his Selmer alto, and when he switched to a Yamaha. It's even obvious that Ernie Watts uses synthetic reeds. All these have identifiable characteristics. Just three examples of many, and one does not need a SOTA system to do it. So, one can safely extrapolate (I think) that an experienced drummer can tell which brand of cymbal is being played on a recording.

Any Keith Jarrett Trio on ECM.

Nice answer rodman999! Spot on. (from one drummer to another!)

Try Jack de Johnette & Foday Musa Suso, Music from the hearts of the masters. Fantastic cymbal work and you can clearly hear different cymbals and variations in percussive style.

Give Joe Dokes / The Soulful Drums of Joe Dokes a listen. It is available on both Vinyl and Cd. I have only heard it on vinyl though,can't speak for the sound on CD.
You know they say the same thing about vibes,if you can get the sound and the decay of the vibrato right your whole system falls in line.

It's Joe Dukes,don't know why I typed Dokes. Anyway it has Brother jack McDuff on organ,Red Holloway on sax and an unknown @ the time on guitar george benson.

One of my reference songs is "High Falls" off of "Win, Lose, or Draw" (ca.1975) by the Allman Brothers. It is approximately a 10 minute instrumental featuring solos by Chuck Leavell and Dicky Betts. The signiture Allman Bros. sound of the era featured dual drummers- Butch Trucks and Jaimoe Johnson. The complex intricate rhythmic details highlight the cymbal work, which truly tests a full range speaker. A pretty deep track in the Brother's catalogue, but a really great one.