I have been an avid user of the Duelund cabling for
over two years now and have used them exclusively in my system with great
results. I have built many for friends and have used a full loom of
interconnects, speaker cables, power cords and an extensive wiring modification
for a previously owned balanced power conditioner utilizing Duelund 600V PolyCast
wiring which was transformative. My cabling desires can be a little addictive
as I have owned and evaluated 40+ brands of cabling costing more than an entire
stereo system!
Over the past six months I stumbled upon a thread here
on Audiogon in regards to a Helix designed cabling and as you probably already
know, I just had to look a little deeper into this cable design…After a month
of studying and sourcing parts, I decided to reach out to the
designer/architect, Williewonka who gave more insights and philosophy on how
the cable came into existence.
That conversation got the ball rolling in converting
one of my KLE Duelund interconnects to Steve’s Helix designed which only entailed
replacing the neutral with a Mil-Spec 16 AWG silver-plated copper wire with the
neural wire being 3 times longer than the signal wire and of course the “Coiling”
of the neutral wire : )
After the modification was complete, I was not sure
what to expect from the Helix cabling but I was quite shocked with the results
with “ZERO” burn-in time…The sound stage became much wider/deeper with a much
tighter/focused image and clarity/transparency is like nothing I have ever
heard in any cabling regardless of cost. In fact, I just sold a full loom of a commercially
designed Helix Cable that’s renowned around the world and has more direct sale
than any cable manufacturer; these $200 DIY Helix Cables walked all over them…
I believe you will hear the same results as I have and
have heard back from friends who have already modified their Duelunds with the
same results; WOW! Remember the cables will need 200+ hours to burn-in and
settle into your system. My system is now 90% DIY Helix to include IC, SC, PC
and Coax with each cabling adding its beauty of an organic and natural
presentation that draws you into the fabric of the music.
You can tailor the sound of your cables using Duelund,
Mundorf silver/1% gold, the outstanding Vh Audio OCC Solid Copper or Silver with Airlok
Insulation or your favorite wiring and you can change it at any time…
IMPORTANT NOTICE: Regarding Helix Speaker Cables and Helix Power Cables
In the last little while I have been made aware of certain amplifier designs for which the Helix Geometry Speaker cables is NOT a good choice.
These amplifiers adopt a completely "balanced" design approach in that the speaker outputs have a +ve and -ve terminal, where the -ve terminal carries the same signal as the +ve terminal, but it is 180 degrees out of phase to the signal on the +ve terminal.
I have also seen this design approach referred to as
Symmetrical or Complimentary
and is increasingly being used by several high end designs in order to allow them to drive difficult loads more easily
PLEASE NOTE: Using a Helix speaker cable will not damage the amp in any way, but the sound is not very good.
THEN JUST YESTERDAY, I realized that this would also be the case for power cables that are connected to a Balanced Power Supply.
Again - the power supply OR the component would not suffer any damage - but components connected to it would just not sound as good as they could.
If you have a amplifier that utilize the "Balanced" design approach then I would suggest using speaker cables made from wires of identical Length, Gauge and Insulation and separated by 1-2 inches. - you can still apply the (Air) adaption, but to both wires
For the power cables - there is no "elegant" alternate solution that would provide the same clarity and dynamics of the Helix Power Cables when used with an unbalanced supply.
So please take this into account when making Helix cables for yourself or others.
There are NO ISSUES with Helix Interconnect Cables to my knowledge
This is currently the only point of concern that I am aware of
Can you give examples of components that use Balanced Power Supplies? Any brand names that like to use this? Is it confirmed that Balanced power supplies do not sound good with Helix Powercords or is this just a thought?
@aniwolfe -The balanced power supply is not in the component.
Think of them being similar to a power conditioner.
They can be a separate unit between the outlet and the components,
or attached to the breaker panel and provide power to your system from there
Is it confirmed that Balanced power supplies do not sound good with Helix Powercords or is this just a thought
I have heard from people that tried the speaker cables with amps that use the Balanced/Symmetrical/Complimentary approach and they did not sound very good
It is my opinion that Helix Power Cables will suffer from the very same problems when used with balanced power supplies because the helix design IS NOT symmetrical
Because the Neutral is significantly longer than the Live wire then distortions could occur inside the component’s power supply, which would impact sound quality.
Until I hear otherwise I will not recommend the Helix be used with Balanced power supplies
But as stated above - they WILL NOT damage any connected components
Unfortunately I cannot provide a complete list of amps that use the Balanced/Symmetrical/Complimentary design approach because it appears to be growing quite quickly, but here are some I know of
a balanced power conditioner is a kind of isolating Trafo with the addition to create from the one phase inlet (in Europe 230V AC) a symmetrical output of +115V AC and -115V AC. All DC, which could be on the 230V input line is eliminated and the new power is not connected to Neutral line, which could have noise and DC as well.
The components, which will plug into this balanced power conditioner will still see a 230V AC, which is the absolute difference between -115V and +115V. They can make a noticeable difference with the big advantage to have no dampening/loss of dynamics. Actually, in most cases they „sound more dynamic“, as the new voltage is always stable 230V, which, on the „normal“ inlet is not the case and we all know the fluctuations of voltage between days and night time. Main reason, that Hi-Fi systems may sound better at night.
With a „normal“ 230V AC power line the „life“+ is carrying +230V and „neutral“- is 0V. The outlet of a balanced power conditioner has +115VAC on „life“ and -115VAC on „neutral“ conductor. Therefore both conductor should have same size and length. Otherwise you loose some of the effect of the power conditioner.
@williewonka thanks. I saw these but was specifically looking for 5 foot which none are but I guess that’s irrelevant as long as it is long enough. Different brand here in the US but same thing. I just don’t know its diameter.
This Thread has got my attention, the very good reports on the use of the cable design is very appealing. It fits quite nicely in with a plan I have been pondering, and to mirror other areas of my HiFi, as I have a System mainly using Devices that are Bespoke Produced.
The idea exchanging my Branded PC OCC Copper and Silver IC's, to produce a Cable Interface with Bespoke Produced Cables has been on my mind for a period of time.
I have recently been investigated the latest Wire Production Methods being used and that are available from the reputable wire producers and have had become interested in Mitsubishi D.U.C.C and Furukawa PC Triple C.
I have purchased a D.U.C.C IC and a Nanotec Power Strada 308 PC Triple C Power Chord. Either of these is yet to be trialled. The Strada 38 has been supplied with Spade Termination but with out Plugs, If a Suitable UK Spec Plug for this cable could be recommended, that will help get the trials moving.
I have discovered during my research a Supplier of PC Triple C wire. Before I attempt to use a buying service for the Cable. I am keen to know if the available Wire is usable for IC's and Power Chord, as the ( AWG ) differs from the commonly referenced ( 16 - 18 AWG )
The listings from the supplier show the Wire can be ordered as : 7 x 0.18mm ( 33 AWG ) PC Triple C 25 x 0.16mm ( 34 AWG ) PC Triple C
7 x 0.3mm ( 28 AWG ) PC Triple C / EX - 5N Silver Outer Wall - Conductivity 105.0 IACS.
Any advice that can be offered on using the above Spec of cable will be very much appreciated.
when I first started developing the Helix cables I tries several excellent smaller gauge wires - 28, 24 and 20
Over time, and with feedback from others trying different wires of different gauge, materials and insulation, it would appear the wires currently mentioned on my web site provide excellent performance
however, other members do have a preference for different wires in their system.
The one area that most seem to agree on is that two wires for signal and two for neutral seems to provide a noticeable improvement over a single wire.
I have tried up to 4 wires on the mains cable, but more than two provided no discernible benefit.
The nice thing with DIY is that you get to choose the wires that you believe will provide the best performance and that fit your budget
I now have two power cord in my system
High Power for amps, etc. that use 2 x 14 gauge wires for the live conductor
Low Power for Source components that use 2 x 16 gauge wires for the Live conductor
I use the lighter gauge on the second to save some money only - both cables have identical performance
but you can build one cable for all components if desired
On all my power cables, the neutral is 2 x 12 Silver Plated Mil-spec stranded copper and the ground is 12 gauge copper wire from the hardware store.
The
PC Triple C wire looks very similar to UP-OCC copper, so I would have to guess that it offers similar levels of performance
From the looks of things, the wires you mention might not be suitable to adapt to the options I have listed above for power cables because you would require too many strands to create the required gauge for the conductor.
Having said that I have been proved wrong on many occasions, so I would encourage you to experiment.
Start with Interconnects, because the wire is much more affordable. Make one using the wires suggested on my web site and one using your own wires and see which one works best
My guess is that you will end up with two cables that sound very good, which you can then try on your components to see which matches each components best
FYI - I currently have two slightly difference interconnects in my system because they each suit different components better.
Don't forget Gryphon. These were mentioned earlier in the thread as with regards to speaker cables. I cannot tell whether their power supplies are balanced or not.
@twoleftears - thanks for that - yes they are - I’ll update the list
@provst - I cannot find anything on the Gryphon site that states they have Symmetrical, Complimentary, or Balanced outputs. They are PURE CLASS A - but they were mentioned earlier with respect to the impact of using high capacitance speaker cables which can do damage via oscillation
I believe Gryphon amps will work very well with Helix Cables
I have meticulously read through about 70% of the Thread and have a much better grasp of the preferences of the Cable Builders.
My Last list of Cables was presented was more in keeping with selecting cables for a Version of IC's I had in mind.
This thread has caused me to rethink that earlier thought pattern.
I had continued a Search since my last post and discovered a supplier of PC Triple C Wire 34 x 0.18mm ( 18 AWG ).
As a result of the discovery of the wire supplier I was hoping to discover a positive report on using this AWG 'Stranded Wire' within this thread.
I believe Steve - 'williwonka' tried a version with stranded wire on a Guitar Lead ?
Also 'grannyring' has reported on the using of stranded wire, but has sung the praises of Solid Core and the much improved benefits of using it.
With this additional information as a motivation, I have extended my search and come up with a option that is in keeping with the preferences being made on this thread, and I hope is seen as useful to the inquisitive Cable Builders visiting the thread.
Acoustic Revive are producing a Speaker Cable that has a PC Triple C Wire Solid Core 0.9mm ( 19 AWG ). The cost of this is sold by the Metre ( 39 Inches ) @ GBP £ 6.00. Effectively £ 3.00 per Single Metre Length.
It will be purchased to be Imported. Shipping and Import Levies will apply to the above.
Additionally I have in the past been working out RCA Plug Options for RCA's I as intending on experimenting with.
I bought Aeco RCA Connectors with a Solid Silver Live/Centre Pin. ( Similar to KLEI pricing )
I was also going to try out Zavfino 1877 RCA Connectors with a OCC Copper Live/Centre Pin. ( Quite Affordable for Four Units )
I have not seen the above Connectors referred to during my reading of the thread.
A Friend has KLEI RCA Connectors in both Silver and Copper so these were going to be used to assist with the assessments of the Cable Builds produced by myself.
As a side: I have indirectly entered the world of Helix Cables as I have in use for many years Mapleshade Clearview Double Helix Speaker Cables. These Superseded all other cables I owned.
@mawe - #3 is correct - BUT #1 should be UP-OCC Silver - thanks for brining it to my attention :-)
Here’s the correct list - and I’ve deleted the post with the mistake --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I had not seen IACS rating for UP-OCC metals before, so I thought I would post this list of all metals commonly used in audio products
Electrical Conductivity or IACS rating
International Annealed Copper Standard
where Tough Pitch copper is the benchmark at 100%
The IACS rating (i.e. conductivity) for the best conductors are
UP-OCC Silver - 107%
Pure Silver - 105%
UP-OCC copper - 103%
OFC Copper - 101%
Pure copper (aka Tough Pitch) - 100%
Please Note: the values above may vary slightly depending on the source
Other metals frequently used in audio applications for plating...
Gold - 70%
Rhodium - 39%
Nickel - 24%
Platinum - 16%
When use for plating, these metals require a substrate plating material to be placed on the copper first.
However - Silver is the only metal that can be plated directly onto copper without degrading performance
Other copper alloys most used, especially for pins in Connectors of all types...
Tellurium Copper - 93 %
Beryllium Copper - 45%
Brass - 26%-27%
Bronze - 15%-19%
Hope this clarifies yet another part of the cables puzzle
These amplifiers adopt a completely "balanced" design approach in that the speaker outputs have a +ve and -ve terminal
Nice posting Steve, after trying many cables on my Atmasphere mono amps and preamp rig over the last few years I realized cables wouldn't really make much difference on it. Which is what Ralph have been saying for decades about the cable colorations in true balanced equipment.
Now I don't know if the speaker outputs are also balanced on Atmasphere equipment but trying different speaker cables (of normal length 4 to 9 ft and normal typical gauge 10 to 16) doesn't make much difference either. I believe the sauce that makes the whole chain impervious to colorations is upstream.
But thank you all for posting, following your notes I will give the Helix a try.
@Luisma31 - From what I have read the Atma-Shere amps appear to be
Balanced Differential Design, which means the HELIX Speaker cables WILL NOT perform their best when connected to these amps.
As suggest in an earlier post for another member, you could make two UP-OCC bare conductors in Teflon tube that follow the Air adaption on my web site
This gives you the benefit of conductors that effectively has Air as their dielectric, which translates to improved clarity, dynamics and imaging
How to construct a prototype...
Go to the dollar store and buy some children's alphabet blocks
Go to the hardware store and buy some little screw-in ring eyelets
screw one in each side of the block - it will space the two wires
Follow the instruction on my site for the Air adaption of the signal wire for speaker cables
thread the two wires through the eyelets to maintain a gap between the two conductors
I would still use the KLE Innovations Banana plugs
Connect to the system and enjoy
You can build a more "professional" spacer one the concept is proven
If you would like a more detailed info please contact me via the email address on my web site
Updated Helix Air Speaker Cable version contains 2-12 ga Milspec on negative and 2 runs of 16 ga Neotech OCC solid copper on positive and outfitted with Techflex...
@wig - did you use bare wire inside the teflon tube?
I found that using the bare wire in Teflon tubes did not require anywhere near as much burn in as the wire with insulation, but then the connectors and neutral wires were already well used, so that may have something to do with it
Some power cord manufacturers for example Audio Envy do not connect the ground on their IEC end power cord for a source component , what are your thoughts on this and has anyone here done this ?
if there is a ground pin on the IEC socket of a component then the component has been designed in such a way that in the event of some kind of internal failure then the user will be protected
in such cases, the ground SHOULD NOT be disabled in any way
If there is NO ground pin then having the ground wire in the cables makes no difference.
I believe it may contravene electrical codes
it is certainly the first place an investigator will look
I realize this is a favorite method of many audiophiles to eliminate noise that is often referred too as "ground loop hum",
More often than not, this problem arises when you combine certain components... e.g. amps that have a grounded power cable - with other components that DO NOT have a grounded power cable.
Components with Wal-Wart power supplies are prone to this problem
e.g. I have a Bluesound Node 2 (ungrounded) and a Simaudio Moon phono stage (grounded)
If I only connect the Node 2 to my amp I get a hum
if I then attach the phono stage the hum goes away
this is because the neutral side of "the system" is actually grounded via the phono stage
this approach is used in many amp designs
This is a common problem, so if I ONLY want to use the Node 2 and NOT have the hum, I have a little wire lead that I attach to the NEUTRAL of any UNUSED INPUT on the amp and the ground pin of the mains supply. - VOILA! - no more hum
This effectively ensures the neutral side of the circuits in ALL connected components are now at ZERO volts - where they theoretically should be
I came across this issue about 12 years ago when I purchased a NAIM amp. Turns out the circuits in NAIM amps are designed to "ground" via their source components. I investigated my source that caused the problem and found a small voltage on the neutral side of the components circuit - it was NOT at zero volts relative to the mains ground - grounding the neutral solved the problem
PLEASE NOTE: this solution IS NOT a remedy for all hums - some hums can be caused by circuit malfunctions or imbalances.
e.g. I recently saw a video that demonstrated how a seemingly good tube from one manufacturer caused a severe hum in an amp. Please note - The solution above would not fix this issue.
Apologies for the long post - I like to provide context :-)
I have started to Purchase the Wire to produce my first Cables. I have the 0.9mm PC Triple C Solid Core as part of this order. It will seem that I am deviating a little from the recommended wire in the cable build posts, but the spirit of investigation is intact.
I also now own regular build PC Triple C IC's that are to be delivered, along with already mentioned regular build D.U.C.C IC's
I have also purchased a IEC and UK Mains Plug that can take Crimped Spade Terminations used on the Wire. My Nanotec Strada 308 PC Triple C Cable can now be compared to two other Power Cables and the Helix Power Cable when it is produced.
I have an inquiry, does anybody know how long a cable is submerged into a Cryogenic Tank and how the process is carried out to return it to a normal temperature ?
I live in a area where there are few Horse Breeding Studs and AI is a common used method for impregnation, hence Cryogenic Tank usage might be able to be achieved.
I finally made the decision to order some Neotech 12 Ga OCC Copper Wire to replace the Neutral Mil-Spec Wire in my PC and I wasn’t prepared to hear this unbelievable change… The first thing I noticed was complete blackness/lowering of floor noise, much better channel separation, depth, more body/texture with images being more vibrant and articulate.
I’m still shaking my head as my speakers before were “chameleon” but with the Neotech upgrade, my speakers are not there and the sound is more “vinyl-like” and this is with zero hours on the cables. I converted my dual 12 Ga Mil-Spec wire to a single Neotech 12Ga OCC Copper and this wire is robust.
If you convert your current DIY Helix Cables to Neotech, I recommend removing the neutral from your current cables first and coiling the remainder of the cabling around the Neotech OCC Wire that’s on a rod and sufficiently spaced; the longer the rod, the better but 6+ feet would be good depending on the length of you PC.
Again, the change was so amazing that I converted ALL 5 of my DIY Helix PC to a single Neotech 12Ga OCC Copper Neutral Wire totaling $325!
I used solid core and once placed in their spot, I don’t move them but if my components were in a cabinet or very difficult accessing the rear of the equipment or if I move equipment often, I would definitely recommend the stranded wire.
I recently Purchased Plugs to connect to the PC Triple C Power Cables. In the past week I have been using the Cable on a CDT , DAC and a Phonostage. Each Device that has had the Power Cable attached had presented in a much more attractive manner.
The Room is being percieved as being more voluminous in the Soundstage Presented, as if a Ballon has been given quite a few extra pumps of inflation.
Helix Cable Materials are not too far of being delivered.
@pindac - I took a look at the details on the
PC Triple C Power Cable from Furutech and the granular structure of the copper wire they use (as a result of their "forging process") looks very similar to the granular structure of the copper produced via the OCC process.
So if the wire you have ordered to build the Helix cables is UP-OCC copper it will be interesting to hear your observations between the two.
I will keep the Thread Posted on how I progress and the Wire Materials being used. At present the intention is to produce a full PC TripleC 'IC' with OCC Copper RCA Connectors
So following on @wig 's experience with replacing the Mil-spec wire with the UP-OCC solid copper on his PC's, I decided to try the something similar by replacing the Mil-Spec neutral of my interconnects with a single strand of Neoteech16 gauge UP-OCC solid copper with Teflon insulation.
And at this point I would like to applaud Wig for tackling a mains cables, because the 16 gauge was much more difficult to fabricate than the mil-spec - I cannot imagine how difficult the 12 gauge was.
But the reward in this case was also stunning
much better separation of the various artists that provided a significant improvement in details
a little improvement in image width, but a significant improvement in image depth and artist isolation
improved venue acoustics details
much more punchy dynamics
overall - a more full bodied presentation
stunning harmonics from grand piano
more whispery textures on vocals
And all of this before burning the cables in - however the signal wire and RCA's already had a few hundred hours on them.
All in all a worthwhile upgrade.:-)
I might try the power cables next, because my two main PC's are only about 27" long, so they should be easier to fabricate than some of my longer cables.
I'm also thinking of applying the "Air" adaption to the neutral as well.
I went about replacing all of my PC's. Unfortunately, they did not work for my grand canary reference mono amps as there was a loud hum. I was really hoping that all my power cords would be the same so it would be easier to hear the performance in totality. I currently have Kimber Kable from my mono amps. Does anyone have a suggestion for my mono amps that might work well in conjunction with all of my helix power cords?
I’m just not "certain" how much benefit will be realized for a wire that costs more than twice the price of the Mil-Spec - would the benefits be marginal?
Another more affordable option is he UP-OCC stranded with the PVC insulation
The same approach could be applied to the speaker cables as well.
I’ll try the stranded on a couple of PC’s and find out.
@wig ’s observations regarding his upgrade of the Neutral on his power cables got the old grey-matter going - once again...
I just happened to have some 12 gauge bare Neotech UP-OCC laying around from one of my previous upgrades, so I decided to use it to see what impact it would have if I used the it for the NEUTRAL wires in my DIY Power Distribution Box.
This box is a very simple design - just three MRI grade outlets with a mini breaker and a couple of on/off switches - it is used only to distribute power to my source components
The existing wires
live - 12 gauge solid Neotech with Teflon - approx 20" long
I simply replaced the neutral only with the bare 12 gauge inside a PVC tube - so basically I incorporated the "Air" adaption as well
But when I listened - just as @wig observed - I could not believe what I was hearing.
improved clarity and even more details - just wonderful articulation
improved bass texture details and depth
improved dynamics
an image that is more detailed and spacious
All this right from the get-go.
One of my favorite types of audition music is the Church Pipe Organ, because of the subtle nuances of the upper register pipes, to the more startling bass tones. I have a few pieces recorded in large cathedrals using dual high quality microphones only, which I find are just amazing to listen to.
But I was not quite ready for what I was about to hear...
This simple little upgrade now conveys the true (massive) character of this wonderful instrument.
the truly amazing "wall of sound" that conveys the grandeur of the cathedral setting
the stunning dynamics and details from the bass pipes through to the upper registers
the vibration of those massive bass pipes - it was like someone shaking you
and the separation between the various sections of "pipe voices" spread across the image
After experiencing how much more difficult upgrading the 16 gauge neutral on the Interconnects were, I decided I did not want to "wrestle" with replacing a 12 gauge neutral on my PC’s
So now I eagerly await the arrival of the 12 gauge Neotech stranded UP-OCC for a PC Upgrade - later this week.
As always - I will reports back on this upgrade also
So what started out as a seemingly "insignificant upgrade" i.e. to put some spare quality wire to good use - it appears that it doesn’t matter how long the wire is - upgrading to UP-OCC always pays off
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