Duelund conversion to DIY Helix Geometry Cabling

@williewonka, Hi Steve, with the KLE plugs becoming harder to find I'm interested to hear from you if you have tried the new and more expensive 'Perfect22' and what if any change in sound you have noticed.

I don't know if you missed my previous post, third post above this on 02-26-2024

Looking for advice please on what schuko plug to use.

@williewonka, Hi Steve,  After having just read the entire long thread with interest and mounting anticipation I have chosen to build some interconnects using your updated 'Ultimate' recipe. 

Are these intended for analogue or digital duties?

I come from a boat building and sailing background and as a professional delivery skipper (now retired or maybe not 😉) have first hand experience with copper wire under harsh conditions. With regards your mild concern over the deterioration or 'weathering' of the bare wire in a tube, may I offer a suggestion closely aligned with the system you used to exclude the unprotected wire from oxidation.

When I rewired my boat over 30 years ago I went to great lengths to prevent/slow the wiring from electrolysis and salt laden air. A product that I find essential is Silicone Grease, please note this is not to be confused with silicone adhesive. When making a wire-joint or terminating to a connector I slide an appropriately sized piece of heat-shrink onto the wire, allowing for good overlap either side of the join or termination. The join is soldered or when not able to solder it is connected by 'marrying' the wires. A married joint is the least bulky and is made by splaying the strands of both wires then alternating the strands as they are introduced and then twisting the strands on each side in opposite directions.  Once joined I liberally cover the joint with the silicone GREASE, slide the heat-shrink into position and then carefully without heating the central part of the joint heat the ends, effectively creating a pocket of grease that completely excludes any air or moisture. Some grease will be squeezed out as it shrinks which can be cleaned away.

I have used this method to connect bilge pumps where the connection is permanently submerged in filthy bilge water. I have replaced burned out pumps on boats I worked on and found the copper as bright as the day I installed them.  When I sold my boat the new owner asked me to install some gear. To do this I had to cut into joins over 30 years old and found them to be as clean as the day they were made!  This grease is also great for lubricating and being a silicone compound actually nourishes plastics and rubber. It's ability to waterproof will be evident when trying to was your hands after using.  

Not audio related but a light smear of this stuff on windscreen wiper blades will stop shudder, quieten the movement and lengthen their life.

Something else that may prove to be useful is the technique I use for getting cables into tight spaces. The average length of a sailboat mast on the deliveries I did is about 14 to 20 meters and getting wires stuffed into the conduit running inside the mast is a challenge. Here dental floss and a fishing weight/sinker helps. When you described some difficulties getting the wires through the teflon tubing I immediately thought of this:

If the T-tube is suspended in a vertical position it should be little problem getting a weighted length of floss to gravitate through the tube. Floss being surprisingly strong can then be rolling-hitched to the wires and simply pulled through. Fly-fishing tackle shops can supply tiny lead split balls that are crimped to the fishing line. If things are a bit tight simply lubricate using your awesome grease 😎

@williewonka, Congratulations on a long thread without the usual cable deniers disrupting flow. Good that you find the interconnects work for both analogue and digital. I need to make up a cable with RCA on one end and BNC on the other end to connect to an old Wadia 15 DAC   I don't remember seeing BNC mentioned, can you recommend a good BNC  connector please.

@steakster, a pleasant surprise to read your post and last night thoroughly enjoyed  ‘Race of the Century’  I have missed a few deliveries from USA because of crew shortage. Would you be interested? Nothing at the minute but who knows?

I have watched clips of the final race before but not with all the build up and background. I had the good fortune once on a stop-over in Bermuda to watch match racing in Hamilton harbour. 17 of the world's top 25 skippers competed. I took the boat owner out to the start line in the rubber duck with food and beer and we closely observed them jockeying for the favoured end of start line which shifted often in gusts. Great fun.

I lived on my boat in Durban harbour east coast of South Africa for 32 years and finally sold it to marry a girl I met at my 21st birthday party. I have been asked why it took me over 40 years to marry her and my answer is much like my audio hobby, I don't like rushing things 😬  We now live in rural Ireland and very little audio interest here.

So my deliveries were local to start which meant most were Durban to Cape Town. The sailor's bible 'Ocean Sailing Passages of the World' warns of waves up to 20 meters in height on this stretch of Indian Ocean seaboard caused by one of the strongest currents on the planet rushing into an opposing SW regularly gusting at over 60 knots equal to Beaufort force 11  This builds character!

On a 35' catamaran delivery from Cape Town to Annapolis for their annual boat show we made it to Barbados 14 hours before hurricane Ivan came through which was full category 5 and at the time claimed strongest ever. Waited for the sea to settle some then set course for US east coast where we encountered hurricane Jeane which had hit Florida then curved North and chased us up the coast with winds steadily increasing. The anemometer broke on the masthead, stuck at 82 knots. I was preparing to head for shelter, nearest being Charleston but radio reported some easterly component in hurricane's heading so I held course. The hurricane became easterly then did a loop de loop and curved back and hit Florida a second time! This is what caused terrible damage as lots of the storm shutters and other precautions had been taken down. With 21 Atlantic crossings I have many stories but not to be told here. Some guns, some drugs, some vanilla and sea rescue and scuppering.

Hope nobody gets seasick'

Charles

@steakster,  

🙂

@grannyring,  I have found 2 Van den Hul BNC connectors in my stash box which are probably gold plated brass and though not ideal will try them and then compare with another made up helix interconnect using KLE RCAs with cheap BNC-RCA adapters. I think that the cheap adapter might do more harm than good and negate the excellent KLEs.  It's not easy to find a good low mass unit with almost all being brass and then gold plated. The link you provided took me to AECO which is Tellurium Cu. and what appears to be the best of my recent search. Quite pricey!

I am about to order some Teflon tubing and have the choice of 0.5mm or 1.0 mm wall thickness. Is one better for the purpose than the other?

Thanks, Charles

@grannyring,  I apologise for addressing the above post to you by mistake, I intended to send it to:  @williewonka 

@williewonka, Hi Steve I have a pair of Sonarquest IEC connectors silver plated in a clear plastic/poycarbonate housing and thinking I might try their silver schuko plug unless you recommend a different plating. As I have mentioned my system is a little on the lean side of neutral so perhaps I should avoid rhodium.

The first PC build will be for source components using 2x18awg solid silver with either 1x14awg Neotech in ptfe solid occ copper or 1x14awg stranded from TFA.

Your thoughts please.

@pindac, thanks for the Monosaudio suggestion but unfortunately their BNC connectors are multi-plated which I am trying to avoid. They claim:

4 Layer Plated Process :

1. Oxygen Free Copper Plated

2. Silver Plated

3. Palladium Plated

4. Rhodium Plated

I found these 2 which are more expensive but considering the Oyaide because it will be silver conductor to silver connector. I have not been able to find quality BNC sockets and also don't think I want to try and change out the socket on my Wadia DAC.  It appears to be impenetrable!

@williewonka, Hi Steve,

I have some parts ordered and about to order the bare solid silver which is fairly pricey. Have you any experience using the next size thinner? I am considering using 22AWG instead of the 20AWG for signal that you recommend and also going to 18 AWG for the neutral rather than the 16AWG in your recipe.

You report on Toddverrone using 24AWG for signal. This gauge would represent a significant saving but as my system is borderline entering into over analytical I would not want to push it any further in that direction.

Thanks.

@williewonka,   Thanks for the prompt reply. Yes this will be the start of my Helix journey.

Giving more thought to this I will now build 3 interconnects. One for digital as per your 'Ultimate' recipe and two for analogue, both using solid silver, one with 20AWG and the other using 22AWG.

It's the only way to truly know which is better for my system.

Regarding power cables, I will be able to experiment a bit more here due to cost. I have some Furutech cable which uses their Alfa 14AWG conductors which I will strip and use for light duty power-cables' neutral. These conductors are silver plated and are similar to the Mil-spec but I will also use the Neotech 14AWG OCC in PTFE for comparison.

@williewonka, I have abandoned the idea of using the Furutech cable for neutral. After stripping back enough of the two sheaths to expose the 3 inner wires I found that they would definitely not hold their shape 🙄

I am shopping for price which is taking time, especially when some emails go unanswered. There are many Neotech dealers in Europe but most carry limited stock and favour carrying the fast sellers only so I am forced to shop around. I am in Ireland and thought buying from some of the UK outlets would be sensible but for most components they are more expensive!

Previous purchases show that I pay UK tax and then I get taxed again when it reaches Ireland and sometimes, depending on the weather, I get charged import duties too.

I ordered a few meters of this for an IC to compare to Parts Connexion's bare solid AG :

@williewonka, many obstacles and delay when ordering from UK or Europe. Strikes and protests severely disrupting my cable building exercise. A word of caution against using dienadel.de for components. Fighting to get a refund after returning some connectors. Also www.acoustic-dimension.com totally useless. They lure you onto their site with cheapest prices but do not keep any Neotech in stock. Basically drop-shipping. Waiting time - several weeks

While waiting for kit to arrive I made up a pair of interconnects using the CCC, the first wire I received. I debated using as is or stripping the insulation for the bare Cu. With no PTFE tubing yet delivered I went with the cable as supplied. The solid Cu. twin wire is 19AWG and measures 5.9mm in width which I tried to fit into a coil of Neotech 16AWG wound on a 5mm fibreglass rod. I had to separate the conductors to get them to lie a little closer together.  I shrunk some heat-shrink tubing over the rod to increase its diameter should I make another.

I inserted these between my Oppo and amp because Spotify runs all day so quickest run-in time. Initial listening was using redbook files from an external HD

I can state that I do not like what I heard, my wife and I simply love them! Whatever we played we heard details that we had not heard before or had not noticed because they were buried or obscured, but detail is only part of it. It was a more immersive experience with the leading edges of notes easily noticed, making percussive sounds exciting and more real. Darbuka, djembe, tablas and congos sounded excellent, better than I've heard before. Piano sounds wonderful with the player's left hand more obvious. There was a fullness in the portrayal now and that was first listen.

Jacob Gurevitsch's guitar sounds gorgeous. Knopfler's guitar on 'you and your friend' pops out. Listening to very well produced Christina Pluhar's -- Los Impossibles recorded in Chapelle de l'Hopital Notre Dame du Bon Secours, the sense of space in the large hall could be heard even before the music started, not ever noticed that before. My system is border-line on the bright side of neutral and was apprehensive about excessive detail but need not have been concerned, the IC provided a fuller sound and with more detail that was welcome.

Steve, perhaps consider changing your handle to willieWOWwonka  😁

I now have about 40hrs play time and yesterday I found a little of the magic missing. More stuff should arrive in a week and I intend to build another IC with twin bare 20AWG AG to compare directly with the Cu CCC.

Let me finish by stating that anyone sitting on the fence should jump straight in.

@pindac, thanks for bringing the CCC cable to our attention. It's the best IC in my collection by far.  Will be able to compare it to the proven IC recipe in about 10 days or so.

@williewonka, Some kit arrived earlier than expected, for a change, so I made up an IC using 2 x 24AWG solid AG in separate ptfe tubes with SOCT-18 for a 3.5:1 neutral with KLE Absolutes.

My previous build used the twin 19AWG CCC that pindac introduced. I now have about 105 hrs play time and they sound really very good. A huge upgrade which left my wife and me with big smiles. 

I removed the CCC pair and replaced them with the 'recipe' above. Straight from my grubby hands and into the system so no run time at all. We heard a cleanly detailed, open sounding, leading edge/transient monster. I heard percussion coming from places not aware of before. It was providing more important information than the CCC.

We both felt that we heard more upper register detail with the overall gestalt a little on the lighter side, which did not surprise me. After some time I left the 24AWG Ag in place between the Oppo and line-stage and then connected the CCC's between the line-stage and amp. Hellooo, head and foot-stomps.

I understand that the pair of AG IC's will change with more play time but the sound right now has improved to the point where before, one of us would dive for the volume control with screwed up face because of screechy female vocals. Not so much now. Some tracks, previously unlistenable became tolerable. Large orchestral works, normally congested and brash on my system were now better rendered and instead of skipping allowed us to hear the musical intent, and if still not pristine was at least listenable.

Prior to these helix delights I could listen only to about 20% of my files, now I think it's closer to 50%. This alone to me is worth the cost of entry 😎

Next build will be 'standard recipe' : 2 x 20AWG bare AG in tubes with 3.5:1 SOCT-16 neutral.

NOW for the biggest 👍 My wife, always supportive, is now actively encouraging me. This morning I got the " building any more?" glint.

@toolbox149, I am hearing what you described and believe it or not, after last nights  session, considered adding a third 24AWG AG strand which would end up about 19AWG and easy enough to do.

Steve has tried, I think, 4 strands in parallel and claims no improvement heard, which gives me reason to be cautious.

However looking at what Kimber has done they seem to be successful with their Varistrand cable using multiple different gauges. I am now considering paralleling 26, 22 and 18AWG all in individual tubes together giving 1.28sq. mm, close to 16AWG overall.

Any brave souls out there willing to buy all that silver and experiment?

Hi guys, I have just received an email back from Stephanie at Parts Connexion that the 14AWG bare Connex solid Cu. wire is out of stock and that the business that supplies it has closed down !&^%#

Any ideas for a substitute?

I have 70 hrs play time on the 2 x 24AWG Ag / SOCT-18 interconnect which has amazing high frequency detail and brilliance (it's not really bright)  but it just sounds lightweight so I am considering adding a single 20AWG solid Ag to each, resulting in about 17.5AWG   Any thoughts?

The earlier made CCC interconnect by comparison sounds weightier and easier to listen to but seems to lack the inner glow of the Silver.

Yes, I agree. At the price of silver wire I will not be making premature decisions. The first helix I built was with PC Triple C Cu. which I left in its insulation and has had now about 220 hrs. It appears to have stabilised but will not disturb it for now. It will be relatively easy to remove the signal wire, remove its insulation and place each wire in a PTFE tube and listen again.

I have for some time suffered from an upper mid-range glare. Female vocals were mostly unlistenable. The CCC calmed that down to the point that we were able to listen to music that we once avoded.  As previously mentioned I can now listen to more of my files which IMO is a huge win.

The extra sparkle from the OCC Ag. is attractive and for my system may require  combining a strand of CCC which is 19AWG Cu. with the 2 x 24AWG Ag. though I don't know yet how Cu. and Ag. in parallel will behave.

@pindac, yes the CCC wire is impressive as is the OCC Ag. As most of us realise systems differ and mine which is border line over-analytical requires, I think a mix of these two types.

I will modify the 'skinny' IC and allow many more hours play and then figure out what direction to go.

What I do know now is that the helix design is inherently superior to anything else I've tried. To this end my Van den Hul Orchid interconnect was my reference. It's basically a single stand of Ag. in VdH 'special' insulation with a coax style neutral and additional screen. He uses hybrid and various weird stuff in his cables. I used to refer to his cables as Van den Dull but the Orchid is an exception to this.

When I replaced the above with the CCC helix I was immediately thrilled with what I was hearing. This one pair of interconnects was not just different and a little better, it took my system to a higher level and my thinking changed!

This expensive exercise has possibly saved me money 🤔

I no longer feel that maybe it's time to upgrade my 30 year old Wadia 15 DAC. Plays redbook only and I do not feel this is a handicap. My DIY power amp is performing beautifully with explosive transients and dynamics. It can stay.

More experimentation with different concoctions will add to the Helix Cookbook recipes.

@williewonka, I will heed your advice, add the extra signal wire and allow it to accumulate some hours before doing anything else. I think that the single strand of wire should not take as long to settle down as the full build did.

Yes the OCC is available with PVC insulation and is as you say less expensive than PTFE. It's also easier to remove.

@williewonka, I added a 20AWG Ag to the 2 x 24AWG Ag and now have over 300 hours use and I feel the performance is now stable and probably will not improve further. The additional wire was twisted to follow the 2 thinner wires and then covered the bundle in a cotton sleeve before inserting it back into the helix coil. Tight fit.

The helix was wound on a 5mm diameter rod which I've now covered in heat-shrink tubing enlarging it for easier fit. 

The result is more fleshed out providing a more balanced sound without losing the upper end sparkle, I think. Not being able to revert back as a sanity check is unfortunate, so going on memory is all I can do but I can say I'm entirely happy with what I hear. Excellent stuff. 😁

Not built any power cables yet due to other pressing issues but will when I get a gap and report here.

Hi williewonka, a belated return to thread, sometimes life gets in the way.

I’m now about to turn my attention to power cables and would like recommendations from you for a schuko plug, perhaps an all out best and next best.

I have been thoroughly enjoying the interconnects I made and on a visit to an audio show in Dublin I took along a pair of cables on the off chance I could compare them to some expensive and well regarded big name stuff as a sanity check. The most impressive was the all Gryphon room, all Gryphon cabling. They do not entertain the idea of anything else. The system comes at about Euro 250000

The chap in attendance named Rune agreed to the comparison at end of day. Analogue was via XLR and so I used one of my pair for digital which accepted RCA. My wife, Rune and I sat front center in that order and listened for about 20 minutes to a variety of music. The Gryphon cable was XLR so we set it via remote 3dB lower and did swap overs on the fly. Well, hmmm, very little difference was heard. My wife said she watched his face and that he looked a bit shocked. I heard slightly more assertive chords on grand piano, bass and treble too close to call. When I asked Rune what he heard he said tonality, it’s in the tone. Well he had to say something, his boss was standing near! I asked the boss his impression who said it had been a long day and wasn’t really listening.

The Gryphon cable sells for Euro 5000 so this is a sterling effort from you considering his cables had been running all day and mine played with no settling time at all.

@norco74, thanks. The design works beautifully and I envisage not resting until I finally have replaced all cables in my system with the helix geometry.

I have recently added a Townshend Platform under my Oppo 103 which has provided an excellent upgrade to the sound, think along the improvement gained from the helix cable. A further lowering of the noise floor. Uses springs according to the component or speaker's weight.

Very different from the cones and spikes mistake of the 80's.  They are pricey though. Got mine second hand.

@pindac, could you provide more info or a link to your suggestion of:

Low Eddy design RCA's

Thanks

@williewonka,

That's great, I have the Neotech neutral here and waiting on the silver.  I'll report my findings when complete. Would using a gold plated Sonarquest schuko plug instead of the silver plated dull dynamics and transients?

Only considering gold because I'm concerned that silver will be taking me the wrong side of neutral but from one of your posts on interconnects you mentioned that you found the silver to be 'rich' sounding. I value your opinion.

@grannyring, I was trying to search through some of your posts where I think you mentioned preferring VH Audio's silver wire with AirLok insulation as being a little 'more relaxed' than bare wire in tubes where I happened upon an old post of yours asking about supertweeters and I provide a link below that I consider essential reading.  If you could enlighten me regarding the VH Audio wire please.

This is off topic and titled the world beyond 20KHz. I met Max Townshend at an audio show in Veldhoven, Holland in 2019 where I had a long conversation and demo of his isolation pods, platforms and podiums and heard the supertweeters which brings much to everything including bass. This has created some fierce arguments that I now avoid. The tweets go out to about 90KHz and the common dismissal is "look if you can't hear you can't hear it" but it is heard as the harmonics necessary to complete the waveform.

paper pdf

If this does not open then google the bold part. From David E blackmere

@williewonka, Hi Steve, a friend has asked me to make speaker cables for his system. The speakers are my design at 96dB sensitivity and driven by a Manley Stingray tube amp providing 40W ultralinear and 25W triode-connected which is how it is always used.

I have some Acoustic Revive cable which is twin 19awg. The red insulation they use is very easily removed by simply freeing one end and pulling, so no nasty nicks from a trim blade. Used as the live = 16awg with 16awg TFA wire for neutral. Would this, in your experience, be enough to adequately drive the speakers? If not I could add a 3rd wire the same as the other 2 bringing the copper cross section of the live wire to 1.96mm sq. closer to 14awg. This is more trouble and expense but will do if that’s what is needed.

While shopping for ptfe tube I came across some ePTFE which is aerated. I emailed them for the Dk which they claimed between 1.3 - 1.5. It may be useful.

@williewonka, thanks. I have just enough TFA 14awg to make a 2.5 : 1 ratio helix. Would this be detrimental in any way?  Unfortunately I don't have the time to order more.

A year ago when I ordered from TFA the package took 5 weeks to arrive. It gets to Dublin in a few days then goes on a tour of the country. Things happen slowly in rural Ireland. Our street has no name but our cottage does, An Acra Beag, which is Gaelic for 'a small acre'  Stuff gets delayed.

@williewonka, great thanks. I will be visiting my home country South Africa for a few weeks and will take the speaker cables, a PC and a pair of IC's with. I will also be visiting my mates at 'the old farts club' a bunch of good guys who are not cable deniers and will be able to report on their impressions when I return. One of them owns Mark Levinson monos and Magico 5 speakers so it will be interesting and fun.