Which leads us back full circle to the Duelund tinned copper in cotton.
Is the red stuff a DIY version of what Anti-Cables does?
Is the red stuff a DIY version of what Anti-Cables does?
Duelund conversion to DIY Helix Geometry Cabling
I have been an avid user of the Duelund cabling for over two years now and have used them exclusively in my system with great results. I have built many for friends and have used a full loom of interconnects, speaker cables, power cords and an extensive wiring modification for a previously owned balanced power conditioner utilizing Duelund 600V PolyCast wiring which was transformative. My cabling desires can be a little addictive as I have owned and evaluated 40+ brands of cabling costing more than an entire stereo system!
Over the past six months I stumbled upon a thread here on Audiogon in regards to a Helix designed cabling and as you probably already know, I just had to look a little deeper into this cable design…After a month of studying and sourcing parts, I decided to reach out to the designer/architect, Williewonka who gave more insights and philosophy on how the cable came into existence.
That conversation got the ball rolling in converting one of my KLE Duelund interconnects to Steve’s Helix designed which only entailed replacing the neutral with a Mil-Spec 16 AWG silver-plated copper wire with the neural wire being 3 times longer than the signal wire and of course the “Coiling” of the neutral wire : )
After the modification was complete, I was not sure what to expect from the Helix cabling but I was quite shocked with the results with “ZERO” burn-in time…The sound stage became much wider/deeper with a much tighter/focused image and clarity/transparency is like nothing I have ever heard in any cabling regardless of cost. In fact, I just sold a full loom of a commercially designed Helix Cable that’s renowned around the world and has more direct sale than any cable manufacturer; these $200 DIY Helix Cables walked all over them…
I believe you will hear the same results as I have and have heard back from friends who have already modified their Duelunds with the same results; WOW! Remember the cables will need 200+ hours to burn-in and settle into your system. My system is now 90% DIY Helix to include IC, SC, PC and Coax with each cabling adding its beauty of an organic and natural presentation that draws you into the fabric of the music.
You can tailor the sound of your cables using Duelund, Mundorf silver/1% gold, the outstanding Vh Audio OCC Solid Copper or Silver with Airlok Insulation or your favorite wiring and you can change it at any time…
http://www.image99.net/blog/files/category-diy-cables.html
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/difference-in-sound-between-copper-and-silver-digital-cables
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/adding-shielding-to-existing-cables
Enjoy,
Wig
934 responses Add your response
If you feel you want to coat the naked wire, then use a Sprayon product called red insulating varnish. This is what is used to spray transformer windings to prevent shorts. It is electrical grade. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M0RQC27/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I think it would most likely degrade the sound vs nude. How much? If at all? No need with silver as oxidation that deteriorates sound quality is not an issue with silver. I know some folks will argue oxidation and sound degradation happens with pure silver, but have owned and built many pure silver cables, I have yet to hear or see any deterioration after almost 15 years! My home is always temperature controlled and maintains a humidity level under 40 however. This spray is for those who are concerned about copper. Jupiter and other companies make copper in cotton conductors and I have used these for years without any sound or serious oxidation problems. However, on paper it can sure happen. |
@duffyd - definitely food for thought for sure So in my case I used s twisted pair, so I might take this approach...
Personally, from what I am observing, i.e. by comparing my "naked" wires inside the sealed tube to the piece of naked wire I have sitting on my audio rack - I’m not ready to add this step to my cables just yet It might be easy to achieve for 1 - 2 meter cables, BUT for my 10 ft speaker cables, it would present significant challenges, especially in my cramped winter work space at present One member had suggested wiping the naked wire with WD40.
Keep the ideas coming - Steve |
At risk of proposing something silly, what about this product? Basically a coating on the bare wire to prevent oxidation? Then add the cotton or silk sleeve. https://shop.everbritecoatings.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=23&a... |
This is how I build my helix usb. Go to Steve’s site where he posted my pics and build instructions. Best to not have to make the cable with the 5v conductor if possible. Many dacs supply their own clean 5v internally for the usb input. Some do not. Here is the link. You can use VH Audio 18 gauge silver or copper for the data conductors. Silver sounds better than copper. You can strip off the Teflon insulation and cover with silk for the best sound. Each data conductor much be placed in a 1.5-2.5mm internal dimension silk tube before making a twisted data pair. You must be skilled at soldering the thicker gauge wires onto the tiny and closely spaced usb solder pads. Any solder bridges will ruin you dac’s usb input board! http://www.image99.net/blog/files/category-002ahelix-image-usb-cable.html |
@ grannyring - regarding USB cable? I have not fully understood how you build the USB cable. Can you explain a bit in more detail please? The 2 data lines (d+ and d-) habe been twisted together. But how did you do the +5V line? The 3 ground lines (18gauge) habe been helixed around what? The 2 data lines including 5V line or is the 5V line separated? |
.Hello everyone! I read the thread with great interest! This is one of the most interesting topics that I have been able to see lately! I join your research! I think the next step is to make a few dozen turns of thread (silk or cotton) around the wire and then insert it into the tube. There is still something to strive for :-) |
So I do appreciate the penchant for "Natural Fibers" but here is why I chose Teflon tube...
Also, thinking back to a few months ago, I had tried a twisted pair of Mundorf Silver/gold wire in cotton tube and eventually found the VH Audio wire with the insulation sounded better, which is another reason I shied away from the cotton insulation this time around.
Right now I am experiencing the most open and detailed image with smooth highs, stunning clarity, extremely fast dynamics and a very articulate and deep bass response.
Nirvana? - perhaps, or it could be just another wire away :-) Regards - Steve |
Grannyring Re: Always use silk or wool if possible, because these are horn substances(keratin) like our nails, hair etc. Cotton isn’t and I remember that Steen Duelund didn’t like it at his cables and he had a fantastic hearing ;0) I have made my usb cable the same way as you with ohno silver and it sounds great, but I think I have to try John Swensons JSSG 2 screens just connected with each other in the ends, around the 2 data conducters. |
More listening to these nude VH Audio copper conductors in my usb cable has me shaking my head. My goodness this is sounding great! Darn....I have to strip my ICs and put the nude VH & Neotech positive conductors in silk, cotton or Teflon tubing. I am leaning towards silk. I would like to stay away from Teflon and keep all natural. Maybe buy the VH silver conductors and place in silk. |
I built a usb cable with the VH Audio 18 gauge solid core copper conductors on the data conductors. The foamed Teflon insulation was stripped off. I placed the bare wire conductor into a cotton jacket. I twisted the individual cotton covered data conductors into a twisted pair. I used three of the VH Audio 18 gauge solid core copper conductors as the outer ground helix shield (triple) with the insulation on. Steve’s comments are spot on! Best sounding usb cable I have made to date. Just beautiful sounding. Will the copper oxidize under the cotton? Maybe yes. Maybe no. Maybe it will not impact the sound over time? Plenty of silk and cotton covered wire sold. |
@nwres - that's good for US customers. Unfortunately the do not export - not even to Canada - shame :-( From their web site... Exportation Policy Regards - Steve |
Chris - when I first started building the cables I found that having a neutral wire that was thicker than the signal wire provided sonic improvements, so I adopted an approach to use a gauge that was twice the gauge of the signal wire across all cables. Back then I only used s single conductor for signal and neutral wires When I first built the speaker cables I used a 12 gauge SIGNAL wire
The power cables are a little different because I do use 2 x 12 for the neutral, mainly because
A 2 x 12 gauge can be used on the speaker cables without any sonic issues - I do know people that have used 2 x 12 gauge and they reported it worked very well. However, the 10 gauge wire holds the helix shape very well and you can space the coils more evenly...
Hope that helps - Steve |
I now have a pair of 3 1/2 ft and 5 ft helix interconnects, 4 ft speaker cables, and one 3 ft PC in my system. Yikes, I can’t believe how good these are. The interconnects have about 125 hours on them as does the PC. The speaker cables went in last night and I listened with only 30 minutes on them. The SCs made a huge difference in the bass and modest to very good difference in other areas like imaging, clarity, sense of space, etc. However, the SCs need burn in as there is a bit of harshness. All my cables are double double. Which brings me to a question. Steve, why the single 10 awg instead of double 12 awg on your speaker cables? Thanks,Chris |
Hot glue works well for damping/vibration control. I use it in some builds to good effect. I found no sonic negatives at all. USB cable builds. I agree it would be best to make a double helix with two independent Teflon tube conductors as a twisted pair. It provides more of the sonic benefits of a true double IC rather than what is closer to simple increased gauge. |
@basillus - RE: You twist the 2 bare wires together and put them together in one teflon tubeThat is correct. Although I did consider using two tubes in my thought process, I decided to go with the single tube option for simplicity. Personally, I will not try the Epoxy approach, since I am forever trying new wires and methods and I think that the epoxy would make that change process more difficult. But it does have it’s merits The heat shrink I use has an adhesive applied to the inside, which turns liquid with the application of heat - it actually sealed around the wire and tube quite nicely and it is relatively easy to undo in the future. UPDATE: After just 14 hours of playing, this new approach is paying some very nice dividends - it will be very interesting to see how they sound after 200 hours burn-in. One observation I find interesting - to this point I have not observed any harshness as I did when using wire with a molded insulation. Regards - Steve |
Hi Steve. Great thread and informations. You twist the 2 bare wires together and put them together in one teflon tube, instead of twisting 1 bare wire in a teflon tube, with 1 bare wire in a teflon tube? Don’t use hotglue, because it doesn’t sound good. Seal the tube with epoxy glue in the heat shrink or use diagmagnetics materiale like these...put a little piece of wool in the tube ends and seal it with shell lack. Steen Duelund liked diagmagnetic materials a lot. Are there anyone here there have tried to use this diy helix recipe as a dc cable from a psu to the source? |
@grannyring ... RE: Hot Glue
RE: A spiral ribbon - go for it :-))) But I think we might be leaving the realm of your average DIYer. But it is fun to consider this stuff - LOL What is interesting is the wire seems to sound extremely good immediately - almost as though it is burned in - which makes me wonder - do you Burn-in the wire or the insulation??? Granted the neutral wire and the RCA’s are well and truly burned in, but I was expecting some indication that burn-in was required. When either Neotech or VH Audio wires had the insulation on them, they required about 200 hours burn-in - before that there was some imaging issues and harshness. Not this time. Something to ponder :-) Will keep everyone posted Regards - Steve |
A few posts ago I had mentioned I had tried Bare Wire inside a clear PVC tube on my speaker and power cables and the improvements were very positive. I’ve also been monitoring the bare wire inside the PVC tube for signs of oxidation and as of today things are looking very promising. The bare wire is still very bright and by comparison the piece of bare wire on my audio stand is turning a much darker shade of copper. I also warned in the post that I thought PVC was not the best tube to use because it gripped the wire when trying to insert it - I thought at that time that Teflon tube would be a better material. Yesterday I received some Teflon tube I had ordered - approx 1/10" internal diameter. So today I decided to try Bare Wire in one of my interconnects that used Neotech UP-OCC copper with Teflon insulation. Removing the insulation was quite easy using a hobby knife and running it down the wire and pealing it back I used
The improvements were far from subtle and heard immediately...
This time I used
I could not tell the difference between the Neotech and VH Audio wire - which was not that strange because they are both 18 gauge UP-OCC solid copper. The twisted wires fit the tube nicely with adequate space such that the impacts of the Teflon tube is negligible - basically this approach has a Dielectric Constant very close to Air, which results in amazingly clear details and better image. The improvements in dynamics was a surprise, because the conductivity of the copper had not changed - just the insulation I’m hoping that sealing the ends of the teflon tube with the heat shrink that has the adhesive inside will halt the oxidation process as it appears to have done with the PVC tubing. Now I am all out of ideas - this was the last change I had considered. Should you rush out and change your cables? That depends on your own person level of ANAL :-) BTW - these cables have just started Burn-in, so I will post and update once they complete burn-in in a couple of weeks. But right now they sound pretty amazing - on both digital and analogue music Regards - Steve |
Thanks for the feedback. I think I will start with a single run, maybe experiment with a double at a later date. As a side note, I also have recently converted all my interconnects to Helix. It has taken me a big step forward in getting the sound I am pleased with. A big thank you for all the information in this thread. |
@duffyd - Any change will have an effect on sonic performance. Some might say "give it a whirl" since you already have the wire.- But you have to consider how to connect the cable to the binding posts - the KLE Innovations bananas will no accept such a large wire - a double neutral might be too heavy for the KLE Banana and pull it out of the binding post - so a replacement connector must be used - which will impact performance Also, the type of connector used may actually negate any benefit from the dual neutral wire You could end up with a cable that is not as good sounding as the single 10 gauge. If you think that you want to try it - take a look at Furez connectors - they offer many different sizes and come in plain copper or silver plated. Hope that helps - Steve |
Question on the Helix speaker cable design. I have a double run of 16AWG Duelund for the signal. I am planning 10AWG MIL Spec as the neutral. I ordered enough of the 10AWG to do a double run on the neutral. Any thoughts on if that will improve performance vs. a single run neutral, or is it just overkill? Thanks. |
Has anyone ordered wire from SKYCRAFT ? Prices seem good and uses Paypal WIRE TEFLON 10 AWG 300/600V - Skycraft (skycraftsurplus.com) 12/1 TEFLON 12AWG GREEN - Skycraft (skycraftsurplus.com) US Orders Only unfortunately Thanks in advance |
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I just heard back from EVR and they said they are not a supplier of wire above 1-2 feet They suggested trying this place...I selected the wire type https://www.awcwire.com/productspec.aspx?id=reduced-wall-tfe-transit-wire It is a "reduced wall" insulation, so it should be better from a dielectric noise perspective Otherwise - use https://www.apexjr.com/wire.html or Take Five Audio Regards - Steve |
Eastern Voltage Research - seems to have a problem will selling large quantities e.g. 150 feet. A contact tried to order this amount and had his order cancelled citing "export concerns", which was strange because he was in the USA Which I find strange because i asked about exporting to Canada and they said "sure, we send stuff there all the time" So oyu might want to contact them first Apex might be the better choice if you are in the USA Regards |
I have just been made aware of this vendor for the Mil-spec wire (NOT Cryo’d) for the power cables - their prices seem pretty goodI wonder how this stuff would work for some star-quad speaker cables... Seems cheap enough to find out. |
@massagevermont shared this site for mill spec 12 gauge and all the other sizes. I just purchased 200 feet of the 12 gauge for the best price I have seen. 01-05-2021 4:36pmhttps://www.apexjr.com/wire.html Sorry, link didn't work in first post. Chris |
I have just been made aware of this vendor for the Mil-spec wire (NOT Cryo’d) for the power cables - their prices seem pretty good 12 AWG, Mil-Spec Wire - Eastern Voltage Research Unfortunately they do not sell the 16 gauge wire for the Interconnect neutral wire, but they do have 14 gauge I have tried a 14 gauge wire (from TFA) on the interconnect, but just a single conductor - I had to use a 3mm rod to wind the coil in order to fit the coil into the housing of the RCA plug - it was a very snug fit, so I do not recommend it I have not tried this vendor, so I have no knowledge of their reputation, delivery etc... but they support all major methods of payment, including PayPal Regards - Steve |
Chris at VH Audio marks the "pull end" of his wire with tape when he cuts a length off. Do you guys usually build your cables with the pull end at the source end of your ICs or do you put it at the other end? Has anyone ever even tested this? Chris simply said that directionality is subjective and did not say if one orientation is better than the other. What's your experience? I'm specifically referring to the
UniCrystal
OCC Airlok wire. |
I have settled on an AC cable design, where I use Duelund silver 3 mm cable for the hot wire (I know with its silk/oil insulation it is not officially approved for high voltage) and 2 runs of Jantzen copper/silver 12 awg runs for neutral and one run for ground. Plugs are Viborg copper/gold. Burning in with FryCorder II for 72 hours. I use this for the amplifier. Sound is very rich with increased texture on all notes - as if each tone would shimmer in many more colors. Also very natural sounding, no stress. |
Today’s interesting experience/observations... As per my post above - I now have the Neotech UP-OCC as the live/signal wires across my entire system - that is except for my power distribution center. The live wires in it was 4 stands of 18 Mudorf Solid silver/gold in cotton sleeve, approximately 10" long I changed the silver wire to 12 gauge Neotech UP-OCC copper on Monday. The sound was basically OK, but if I moved slightly off center the image went horribly wrong and sounded like it was bouncing off side walls. Since I had observed this anomaly during the burn-in process with another pair of interconnects, I let the burn-in continue. So this evening I listened to my system and the anomaly had corrected itself nicely, as expected, but the system now has a significantly larger image and the bass goes even deeper. The balance front to back is very nice and very detailed and artist placement is very precise. These improvements were easily heard because it now appears that the listner is even more immersed in the image, so it was not something that I really had to listen intently for. My surprise was due to the fact the amount of wire replaced in this exercise was a mere 10", i.e. out of a power "corridor" that is some 20 ft long in total. And it was a very good quality wire, not just a piece of extension cord from Home Depot The other thing that changed was the connection to the Outlets on the back of the power distribution center. It was previously just bare wire into the clamp on the outlet. But this time I soldered small spade connectors to the UP_OCC copper This just goes to show - even the smallest changes can yield some very gratifying results. So, was it the wire, or the spades? I’ve promoted the use of spades on my power corridor for a long time. For me, this confirms that using them can be very beneficial The spades are nothing special, just spade connectors from my local Car Parts or hardware store - $20 for 65 pieces The quest continues - even though I told my wife - "That’s it" :-) Regards - Steve |
Why double up with the DS method, when you can QUADRUPLE!! https://www.ebay.com/itm/Interconnect-Cable-RCA-Custom-Hi-End/284139528202?hash=item422809200a:g:Sc8AAOSw8ilf9dsh |
Those a great prices - many thanks for the link - I’ll update my web site :-) This will make the Helix cables much more affordable ! - When I first started this - the 10 gauge wire was actually $1.30/ft - these prices are better than that. They have some great colour choices also :-) As for Cryo treating - I’m not sure it adds anything when used with the Helix cables. - It’s probably the silver plating that provides the most benefit I know a couple of guys in eastern Europe had to make do with non-cryo silver plated wires and they still reported great results. Has anyone out there had a more positive experience using Cryo’d wire and parts compared to non-cryo - i.e. on the Helix cables? Cheers - Steve |
Thanks for the link. Too bad not cryo treated, but the prices are great! We should do a group purchase and get it cryo treated 🤓. TFA is always out it seems and slow shipping speed. Parts Connextion in CA ships overnight for $15! TFA charges twice that and it takes 10-14 days to get here. Sometimes longer. |
Just want to say thanks for all the information and building technics presented in this thread. I am much appreciative. I ordered some wire to get started and want to let people know there is a supplier for mil-spec wire in CA who's prices are very good. Check him out here https://www.apexjr.com/wire.html Steve is easy to deal with. Cheers, Chris |
@divertiti - RE: Steve, I’m using only Mundorf silver gold barewire, have you seen those oxidize like copper? OK - so as well as having a piece of bare copper wire, I also have a piece of the Mundorf Silver/gold wire sitting on my audio stand and after about 6 months it has almost turned Black. However - I just remembered my "old wire" box and I have solid silver wire in there that is over 4 years old, inside a Teflon tube and it is does not show any signs of tarnishing. So if it were me - I would insert the bare wire into a Teflon tube and seal it at both ends with a piece of heat shrink Hope that helps - Steve |
