I have been an avid user of the Duelund cabling for
over two years now and have used them exclusively in my system with great
results. I have built many for friends and have used a full loom of
interconnects, speaker cables, power cords and an extensive wiring modification
for a previously owned balanced power conditioner utilizing Duelund 600V PolyCast
wiring which was transformative. My cabling desires can be a little addictive
as I have owned and evaluated 40+ brands of cabling costing more than an entire
stereo system!
Over the past six months I stumbled upon a thread here
on Audiogon in regards to a Helix designed cabling and as you probably already
know, I just had to look a little deeper into this cable design…After a month
of studying and sourcing parts, I decided to reach out to the
designer/architect, Williewonka who gave more insights and philosophy on how
the cable came into existence.
That conversation got the ball rolling in converting
one of my KLE Duelund interconnects to Steve’s Helix designed which only entailed
replacing the neutral with a Mil-Spec 16 AWG silver-plated copper wire with the
neural wire being 3 times longer than the signal wire and of course the “Coiling”
of the neutral wire : )
After the modification was complete, I was not sure
what to expect from the Helix cabling but I was quite shocked with the results
with “ZERO” burn-in time…The sound stage became much wider/deeper with a much
tighter/focused image and clarity/transparency is like nothing I have ever
heard in any cabling regardless of cost. In fact, I just sold a full loom of a commercially
designed Helix Cable that’s renowned around the world and has more direct sale
than any cable manufacturer; these $200 DIY Helix Cables walked all over them…
I believe you will hear the same results as I have and
have heard back from friends who have already modified their Duelunds with the
same results; WOW! Remember the cables will need 200+ hours to burn-in and
settle into your system. My system is now 90% DIY Helix to include IC, SC, PC
and Coax with each cabling adding its beauty of an organic and natural
presentation that draws you into the fabric of the music.
You can tailor the sound of your cables using Duelund,
Mundorf silver/1% gold, the outstanding Vh Audio OCC Solid Copper or Silver with Airlok
Insulation or your favorite wiring and you can change it at any time…
@nwres - that's good for US customers. Unfortunately the do not export - not even to Canada - shame :-(
From their web site...
Exportation Policy
Sorry, no international sales. We are not an exporting company. We have no exporting license, and, because we often deal with govt./ military surplus, we do not want to give even the impression that we are selling abroad (including Canada and Mexico).
Steve, Thanks very much for the reply. I figured as much but because you’ve been at it much longer than I have, I wanted a clear answer. I like the single 10awg and will use it on the next pair of speaker cables I make.
Chris - when I first started building the cables I found that having a neutral wire that was thicker than the signal wire provided sonic improvements, so I adopted an approach to use a gauge that was twice the gauge of the signal wire across all cables.
Back then I only used s single conductor for signal and neutral wires
When I first built the speaker cables I used a 12 gauge SIGNAL wire
this meant I required a larger NEUTRAL wire that was approximately 2 times the gauge of the signal wire
so my choice was a 10 gauge wire - since I could not find a 9 gauge wire :-)
The power cables are a little different because I do use 2 x 12 for the neutral, mainly because
having a single 10 gauge NEUTRAL together with a 12 gauge ground would look odd.
Also the 1 x 12 gauge ground wire fills in the space between the windings, which keeps the two neutral wires together.
the windings are closer together so it looks neat and tidy
A 2 x 12 gauge can be used on the speaker cables without any sonic issues - I do know people that have used 2 x 12 gauge and they reported it worked very well.
However, the 10 gauge wire holds the helix shape very well and you can space the coils more evenly...
whereas the 2 x 12 gauge would not look as "nice" because you have no way in keeping the two coils together for the length of the cable - it just looks untidy
also, at the back of an audio rack where there could be many wires in place, having additional coils could get caught on those wires - so I kept it simple - ONE 10 Gauge coil on the speaker cable.
I now have a pair of 3 1/2 ft and 5 ft helix interconnects, 4 ft speaker cables, and one 3 ft PC in my system. Yikes, I can’t believe how good these are. The interconnects have about 125 hours on them as does the PC. The speaker cables went in last night and I listened with only 30 minutes on them. The SCs made a huge difference in the bass and modest to very good difference in other areas like imaging, clarity, sense of space, etc. However, the SCs need burn in as there is a bit of harshness. All my cables are double double. Which brings me to a question.
Steve, why the single 10 awg instead of double 12 awg on your speaker cables?
Hot glue works well for damping/vibration control. I use it in some builds to good effect. I found no sonic negatives at all. USB cable builds. I agree it would be best to make a double helix with two independent Teflon tube conductors as a twisted pair. It provides more of the sonic benefits of a true double IC rather than what is closer to simple increased gauge.
You twist the 2 bare wires together and put them together in one teflon tube
That is correct. Although I did consider using two tubes in my thought process, I decided to go with the single tube option for simplicity.
Personally, I will not try the Epoxy approach, since I am forever trying new wires and methods and I think that the epoxy would make that change process more difficult. But it does have it’s merits
The heat shrink I use has an adhesive applied to the inside, which turns liquid with the application of heat - it actually sealed around the wire and tube quite nicely and it is relatively easy to undo in the future.
UPDATE: After just 14 hours of playing, this new approach is paying some very nice dividends - it will be very interesting to see how they sound after 200 hours burn-in.
One observation I find interesting - to this point I have not observed any harshness as I did when using wire with a molded insulation.
Hi Steve. Great thread and informations. You twist the 2 bare wires together and put them together in one teflon tube, instead of twisting 1 bare wire in a teflon tube, with 1 bare wire in a teflon tube?
Don’t use hotglue, because it doesn’t sound good. Seal the tube with epoxy glue in the heat shrink or use diagmagnetics materiale like these...put a little piece of wool in the tube ends and seal it with shell lack. Steen Duelund liked diagmagnetic materials a lot.
Are there anyone here there have tried to use this diy helix recipe as a dc cable from a psu to the source?
the heat shrink seems to work, the adhesive inside the Heat Shrink sealed the end very nicely.
But hot glue does not make the tube any wider like the Heat Shrink did - better for inserting into the coil.
There is very little air inside the tube once the two twisted wires are inserted
I did wonder if I could somehow inject carbon dioxide or Nitrogen into the tube to stop oxidation - still working on that :-)
RE: A spiral ribbon - go for it :-)))
But I think we might be leaving the realm of your average DIYer.
But it is fun to consider this stuff - LOL
What is interesting is the wire seems to sound extremely good immediately - almost as though it is burned in - which makes me wonder - do you Burn-in the wire or the insulation???
Granted the neutral wire and the RCA’s are well and truly burned in, but I was expecting some indication that burn-in was required.
When either Neotech or VH Audio wires had the insulation on them, they required about 200 hours burn-in - before that there was some imaging issues and harshness. Not this time.
A few posts ago I had mentioned I had tried Bare Wire inside a clear PVC tube on my speaker and power cables and the improvements were very positive.
I’ve also been monitoring the bare wire inside the PVC tube for signs of oxidation and as of today things are looking very promising. The bare wire is still very bright and by comparison the piece of bare wire on my audio stand is turning a much darker shade of copper.
I also warned in the post that I thought PVC was not the best tube to use because it gripped the wire when trying to insert it - I thought at that time that Teflon tube would be a better material.
Yesterday I received some Teflon tube I had ordered - approx 1/10" internal diameter.
So today I decided to try Bare Wire in one of my interconnects that used Neotech UP-OCC copper with Teflon insulation.
Removing the insulation was quite easy using a hobby knife and running it down the wire and pealing it back
I used
two strands of bare 18 gauge Neotech wire, twisted together
3-4 twists per inch
one piece of Teflon tube with Heat Shrink at each end
The improvements were far from subtle and heard immediately...
more high end details - vocals now had a definite whispery quality and venue acoustics were better defined
mid tones were fuller and more complete
bass was deeper with better texture
dynamics were noteicebly fast with more slam
image was little wider and better focussed
the whole presentation was more natural and full bodied
Crap! - now I had to do the IC for the digital side :-)
This time I used
2 strands of 18 gauge VH Audio solid UP-OCC copper wire - not the Neotech wire
3-4 twists per inch
and the same Teflon Tube build
Again the improvements were easily discernable and just as good as the Neotech wire.
I could not tell the difference between the Neotech and VH Audio wire - which was not that strange because they are both 18 gauge UP-OCC solid copper.
The twisted wires fit the tube nicely with adequate space such that the impacts of the Teflon tube is negligible - basically this approach has a Dielectric Constant very close to Air, which results in amazingly clear details and better image.
The improvements in dynamics was a surprise, because the conductivity of the copper had not changed - just the insulation
I’m hoping that sealing the ends of the teflon tube with the heat shrink that has the adhesive inside will halt the oxidation process as it appears to have done with the PVC tubing.
Now I am all out of ideas - this was the last change I had considered.
Should you rush out and change your cables?
That depends on your own person level of ANAL :-)
BTW - these cables have just started Burn-in, so I will post and update once they complete burn-in in a couple of weeks.
But right now they sound pretty amazing - on both digital and analogue music
@duffyd, I’m using the ETI pure copper spades with heavy gauge speaker wires. This had been a recommendation from Nick at Hificollective.uk for the Duelund wire. I’m totally happy with these spades, best “sounding” connectors. Better than the hollowed types and better than Furutech spades.
@duffyd - Any change will have an effect on sonic performance. Some might say "give it a whirl" since you already have the wire.-
But you have to consider how to connect the cable to the binding posts - the KLE Innovations bananas will no accept such a large wire - a double neutral might be too heavy for the KLE Banana and pull it out of the binding post - so a replacement connector must be used - which will impact performance
Also, the type of connector used may actually negate any benefit from the dual neutral wire
You could end up with a cable that is not as good sounding as the single 10 gauge.
If you think that you want to try it - take a look at Furez connectors - they offer many different sizes and come in plain copper or silver plated.
I have a double run of 16AWG Duelund for the signal. I am planning 10AWG MIL Spec as the neutral. I ordered enough of the 10AWG to do a double run on the neutral.
Any thoughts on if that will improve performance vs. a single run neutral, or is it just overkill?
I placed an order for the yesterday and it was promptly cancelled. I inquired as to why and I got the exact opposite story. They said the cannot export the wire to Canada as per US export laws. Yet Take Five Audio in Canada sells the wire. All very strange. Cheers.
@massagevermont shared this site for mill spec 12 gauge and all the other sizes. I just purchased 200 feet of the 12 gauge for the best price I have seen.
Unfortunately they do not sell the 16 gauge wire for the Interconnect neutral wire, but they do have 14 gauge
I have tried a 14 gauge wire (from TFA) on the interconnect, but just a single conductor - I had to use a 3mm rod to wind the coil in order to fit the coil into the housing of the RCA plug - it was a very snug fit, so I do not recommend it
I have not tried this vendor, so I have no knowledge of their reputation, delivery etc... but they support all major methods of payment, including PayPal
Chris at VH Audio marks the "pull end" of his wire with tape when he cuts a length off. Do you guys usually build your cables with the pull end at the source end of your ICs or do you put it at the other end? Has anyone ever even tested this? Chris simply said that directionality is subjective and did not say if one orientation is better than the other. What's your experience? I'm specifically referring to the
UniCrystal
OCC Airlok wire.
I have settled on an AC cable design, where I use Duelund silver 3 mm cable for the hot wire (I know with its silk/oil insulation it is not officially approved for high voltage) and 2 runs of Jantzen copper/silver 12 awg runs for neutral and one run for ground. Plugs are Viborg copper/gold. Burning in with FryCorder II for 72 hours. I use this for the amplifier. Sound is very rich with increased texture on all notes - as if each tone would shimmer in many more colors. Also very natural sounding, no stress.
As per my post above - I now have the Neotech UP-OCC as the live/signal wires across my entire system - that is except for my power distribution center. The live wires in it was 4 stands of 18 Mudorf Solid silver/gold in cotton sleeve, approximately 10" long
I changed the silver wire to 12 gauge Neotech UP-OCC copper on Monday.
The sound was basically OK, but if I moved slightly off center the image went horribly wrong and sounded like it was bouncing off side walls.
Since I had observed this anomaly during the burn-in process with another pair of interconnects, I let the burn-in continue.
So this evening I listened to my system and the anomaly had corrected itself nicely, as expected, but the system now has a significantly larger image and the bass goes even deeper. The balance front to back is very nice and very detailed and artist placement is very precise. These improvements were easily heard because it now appears that the listner is even more immersed in the image, so it was not something that I really had to listen intently for.
My surprise was due to the fact the amount of wire replaced in this exercise was a mere 10", i.e. out of a power "corridor" that is some 20 ft long in total. And it was a very good quality wire, not just a piece of extension cord from Home Depot
The other thing that changed was the connection to the Outlets on the back of the power distribution center. It was previously just bare wire into the clamp on the outlet. But this time I soldered small spade connectors to the UP_OCC copper
This just goes to show - even the smallest changes can yield some very gratifying results.
So, was it the wire, or the spades?
I’ve promoted the use of spades on my power corridor for a long time.
For me, this confirms that using them can be very beneficial
The spades are nothing special, just spade connectors from my local Car Parts or hardware store - $20 for 65 pieces
The quest continues - even though I told my wife - "That’s it" :-)
Cryo treating most all parts is a nice plus. It certainly does help somics in my humble opinion. I may buy a spool and have it cryo treated. Not crazy expensive to do really.
Those a great prices - many thanks for the link - I’ll update my web site :-)
This will make the Helix cables much more affordable ! - When I first started this - the 10 gauge wire was actually $1.30/ft - these prices are better than that.
They have some great colour choices also :-)
As for Cryo treating - I’m not sure it adds anything when used with the Helix cables. - It’s probably the silver plating that provides the most benefit
I know a couple of guys in eastern Europe had to make do with non-cryo silver plated wires and they still reported great results.
Has anyone out there had a more positive experience using Cryo’d wire and parts compared to non-cryo - i.e. on the Helix cables?
Thanks for the link. Too bad not cryo treated, but the prices are great! We should do a group purchase and get it cryo treated 🤓. TFA is always out it seems and slow shipping speed. Parts Connextion in CA ships overnight for $15! TFA charges twice that and it takes 10-14 days to get here. Sometimes longer.
Just want to say thanks for all the information and building technics presented in this thread. I am much appreciative. I ordered some wire to get started and want to let people know there is a supplier for mil-spec wire in CA who's prices are very good. Check him out here https://www.apexjr.com/wire.html Steve is easy to deal with. Cheers, Chris
Steve, I’m using only Mundorf silver gold barewire, have you seen those oxidize like copper?
OK - so as well as having a piece of bare copper wire, I also have a piece of the Mundorf Silver/gold wire sitting on my audio stand and after about 6 months it has almost turned Black.
However - I just remembered my "old wire" box and I have solid silver wire in there that is over 4 years old, inside a Teflon tube and it is does not show any signs of tarnishing.
So if it were me - I would insert the bare wire into a Teflon tube and seal it at both ends with a piece of heat shrink
Yes always UPS Express! Always. USPS Is an absolute mess right now. 30 days to go 300 miles and so many more bad recent experiences. Just an utter and complete mess!
If anyone orders anything from Parts Connexion in Canada, make sure you select something other than USPS. I placed two orders there for some Absolute Harmony RCAs. The first one shipped USPS and I still don't have it 18 days later. A few days later I placed another order, but selected UPS. I got that order in about three days!
All really interesting ideas gents. @grannyring When you say double is always better, have you tested that idea on digital cables with the same results?
Steve, I'm using only Mundorf silver gold barewire, have you seen those oxidize like copper? Grannyring seems to think silver gold is okay, so just want to make sure
@divertiti - one last thing you might want to consider if you are planning on using bare wire...
Based on an ongoing experiment I am conducting... - I used bare copper wire on the signal wire of my speaker cables - I enclosed the bare wire inside a clear PVC tube - I sealed the tube at each end with a small piece of Heat Shrink - I placed a piece of bare wire on my audio stand for comparison - because the PVC tube is crystal clear I can observe the brightness of the wire
My observations to date... - the wire in the tube is still very bright after almost 2 months - the wire on the audio stand is definitely turning a lot darker
So if you use bare wire (copper or silver) you might want to consider inserting it inside a Teflon tube and seal it at both ends with a piece of heat shrink (with adhesive) in order to slow the oxidation process.
I suggest using the Teflon tube because it is much thinner, so you can still opt to use the cotton tube/sleeve to dampen vibration if desired.
Double is always better. Double on both positive and helix. It just is. Is it day and night better? No. Just a tad better and if you want the most out of your build, then go for it! If you are going through the work and effort, then make it the best you can with the conductors you have chosen.
I would not recommend using bare copper wire in cotton for the positive conductors. They will oxidize over time, no doubt about it. Silver or silver/gold is fine! Food for thought.
@divertiti - Thanks for verifying the Helix IC as a SPDIF - it’s been a while since I used SPDIF, so knowing it works with great components is very much appreciated.
WRT..
Now the question is do you use double run for Spdif or keep it single run?
Good question - I’ve been asked that question many times i.e. before the Double shotgun version was tried, and I always said "a single run"
But after the success of the Double Shotgun - perhaps two would work better?
But then again we are dealing with digital signal that represents 0’s and 1’s , which I believe is not as critical as analogue cables, so perhaps two wires is overkill - I would stick with one.
The other factor is my old SPDIF did not use the same solid copper or solid silver wire that are currently in use, so it was probably not as "capable" from an analogue perspective, but it still performed very nicely as a SPDIF interconnect.
@Grannyring is using a twisted pair for D+ and D- on his USB cable
Also is there an optimal length for spdif cables?
I assume you are asking about HELIX geometry SPDIF cables?
There probably is, but because the signal is not "reflecting" to the same extent as a cable having a more standard geometry I would "questimate" that it is probably quite long, much longer than I would care to wind a helix coil for. :-)
I have tried a 2 meter cable and could not tell any difference between it and a 1 meter cable.
My final SPDIF cable was a 1/2 meter long and I observed the same great results as with the 1 and 2 meter cables.
@williewonka Thanks to your post that sparked my curiosity, I tried my spare helix interconnect using Mundorf single run barewire in cotton and absolute harmony as Spidif cable between my streamer and DAC ($4.5k each), and it performed great. In fact I had some Nordost Valhalla 2 AES XLR cable on hand and I had both plugged in to switch back and forth on the inputs. I couldn't tell the difference after quick switching between the two input from the listening spot.
I'm sold! Now the question is do you use double run for Spdif or keep it single run? Also is there an optimal length for spdif cables?
@divertiti - unfortunately this is definitely uncharted territory for me.
But since you are making a Helix XLR cable, would it be possible to try that cable as the AES EBU cable to see if it works?
Unfortunately I have not had the opportunity to explore every possible use for the Helix Geometry.
I found this basic explanation of high frequency transmission problems online...
At high frequencies (people use to say RF for Radio Frequencies) all cables behave (or misbehave) as transmission lines.
Get a long pipe and talk into it, that’s a transmission line. If it is long enough, you’ll hear some echo coming back from the other end. That’s a problem.
Whenever you send some stuff in a transmission line it will always travel at a certain velocity (the speed of sound in the case of you talking in a pipe, the speed of light modulo impedance, dielectric constant etc, in a cable).
So, if your signal is fast enough, that this propagation effects are not negligible anymore, you’ll say it’s a transmission line, and you have to treat it like this. It is not something difficult, just a part of your design.
For instance take a SATA cable. If you send some low frequency signals in it, it’s a cable. If you send 3 billion bits per second in it, it’s a transmission line, since there are several bits in the cable at any given time. Of course you’ll want to minimize echoes if you wanna use that to transmit some useful information.
So if you put a resistor at the end of the cable, which has a certain value, you will get optimal damping and optimal transfer of power : all the power that flows in the transmission line will end up in the resistor instead of bouncing back to the source and messing everything. The value of this resistor is your characteristic transmission line impedance. It can be calculated (depending on geometry etc) or it can be measured.
I do know that a Helix Interconnect cable used for analogue purposes can also be used as a SPDIF cable without using a 75 Ohm RCA plug and it performs extremely well - i.e. better than most purpose built 75 Ohm cables. - Perhaps it’s the Helix Geometry that overcomes some issue in a standard 75 Ohm cable
The Helix Geometry is very different from that of a "standard cable" - so does it suffer from the same reflection issues - or is the highest frequency it can handle without any issues, high enough to handle those supported by a 110 ohm AES EBU connection without any problems?
I would try it - What’s the worst that can happen? - it sounds bad?
But then again - it might not :-)
If you do try it, please post your observations. I like to understand the limitations of the Helix Geometry as well as its good points.
Thanks @grannyring and @williewonka, it helps a ton, I will repurpose my cotton and bare wire. Do you know if it's possible to make an AES EBU cable? I know it needs to be 110ohm and have special shielding requirements.
@divertiti - Personally - I would not mix the bare wire and PTFE wire.
Mainly because I like to have everything "the same"
But if you think about it, the signal in the PTFE wire could be subject to the noise generated by the insulation. The bare wire (in cotton?) would not be subject to the same "level" of noise
But we are talking tiny tiny TINY details here - inaudible? - perhaps.
How much of an issue would this be? - it really depends how sensitive your ears are, but unless you tried both approaches you would not know.
It can also be a bit of a mind game, in which case it depends on how concerned you are about getting the absolute best sound.
After all - we all suffer different levels of ANAL :-)
I did have one set of IC’s with two bare wires twisted together inside a single cotton sleeve and they sounded exceptional. I think that would be my choice in this case.
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