Duelund conversion to DIY Helix Geometry Cabling

Great thread.
I was wondering how to find if my amplifier uses balanced speaker outputs. It's a Hypex Ncore and the discussion above about the IceEdge one vives me pause.
Thanks

I have now updated my web site with instruction and images of the process for removing the insulation and installing the Teflon tube

Just click on the link to The HELIX IMAGE (Air) on the home page at...

My Audio Alchemy (image99.net)

It also shows a simple insulation stripping jig that makes stripping the wire so much easier

All other instructions remain the same

Regards - Steve

Nice long read . I’m not really convinced that cables make big difference but would love to try them. Anyone around Chicago that can build some cables for me ? 😃

Chris - I use the one below for both IC's and power cables. It is sufficiently wide to provide adequate space around a 2 x 18 gauge twisted conductor and a 1 x 12 gauge or 1 x 14 gauge solid wire, that way one tube fits all

PTFE 10 Tubing - Thin Wall Teflon Tubing In A Variety Of Gauges - (takefiveaudio.com)

Inside diameter is 0.106"
Outside Diameter is 0.13"

It fits snuggly inside the Helix of the interconnect, so be careful of the RCA housing being able to slide over the Helix at the plug.

I use a small piece of Heatshrink about 1/4" long to seal the end of the tube to the wire, but Hot glue might be a better alternative if you can get it into the tube. You can peal any excess off the outside of the tube leaving more room for the Helix wire

Regards - Steve

Thanks, Steve.

One more question if you don't mind. What gauge PTFE tubing do you use? For instance, if the wire is 12 awg, do you use a 10 awg tube for it? If 18 awg, would you use a 16 awg tube?

Thanks again for all the fine detail you've provided to make these fabulous cables.

Cheers, Chris

Just to clarify - I am not "anti-silver" - I used solid silver for many years and preferred it.

But the UP-OCC solid copper is so darn good, I now find it difficult to justify the cost of silver, for what might be a small ROI

I know others on this thread prefer silver and perhaps I would spring for it if I didn’t have a couple of other expensive hobbies that take some funds away from this one - oh, and a happy wife - at present :-)

If it weren’t for that I would probably try it

Just thought I should clarify things - Steve

@massagevermont - Chris - all I do is take a Utility knife like this one

Internet’s Best Snap-Off Utility Knife - Regular - Set of 3 - Belt Clip - Retractable Razor Knife Set - Box Cutter Locking Razor Knife, Utility Knives - Amazon Canada

• lay the wire on a flat surface - you only need about a 12"-18" surface
• Lay the blade flat on the wire and then lift the blunt side of the blade up to create around a 5 degree angle with the sharp edge on the insulation
• slide the blade along the wire to remove a thin strip of the insulation about 4-5 inches at a time
• Once a thin strip has been removed for the entire length - peel off the remaining insulation

It is very easy and does very little damage to the wire - much better and a lot faster than wire strippers

Hope that helps - Steve

There’s SOST-12 listed on the official site of Neotech, though pretty much nobody would like to import such 12 gauge UP-OCC solid silver wire for obvious reasons:

http://neotechcable.com/product9.php
https://wp.neotechcable.com/up-occ-hook-up-wire/

So far I could find a couple of online stores with SOST-12 and we’re talking about 3,500 RMB / meter here:

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=630686893004

And then it’s NT$11,033 / meter (almost 400 bucks) here but as usual a certain agree of wiggle room could be expected:

https://www.ruten.com.tw/item/show?21821076194416

Finally it’s kinda like "priceless" on this Polish site:

https://diraudio.pl/diraudio-jako-autoryzowany-partner-marki-neotech/

Like what Steve mentioned before, it ain’t exactly practical to go for a price range like that unless we could somehow justify the expenses. Maybe an "extremely resolving" system would still benefit from such a substantial investment, though going THAT far might not be worth it.

When it comes to expensive parts, Duelund might not have the best wires out there but their CAST silver / copper caps should be fantastic choices as bypass caps. I guess that we should also pay quite a bit of attention to the PSU side once our cables are mostly taken care of.

Steve,

How do you remove the Teflon from the Neotech wire without damaging the wire itself? I think what I'll do, when I purchase more wire, is buy the Neotech in PVC to save some money. The PVC is just going to be stripped off.

Thanks, Chris

@aniwolfe - the quick answer - Not in the Teflon tube.

I did use the Mundorf 2 x 18 gauge Mundorf Solid Silver + 1% gold in cotton sleeve for IC's a couple of iterations ago

• that was replaced with 2 x 18 gauge VH Audio UP-OCC solid copper with Air Lok Insulation
• and now 2 x 18 VH Audio or Netoech NAKED UP-OCC solid copper in Teflon tube
• both were superior to the Mundorf

Since I now had  surplus Mundorf Silver+gold wire, I decided to recycle it by replacing the1 x 12 gauge Duelund stranded tinned copper wire that was inside my power distribution box with 4 strands of the Mundorf wire in cotton sleeve - which did improve things

• that has now been replaced by 1 x 12 gauge Neotech UP-OCC solid copper with the Teflon insulation.
• which proved to be superior to the solid silver

Each time, the UP-OCC copper outperformed the Mundorf silver+gold wire.

based on those observations I believe the OCC copper provides superior performance over most solid silver wires available 

• with the exception of UP-OCC silver wire from VH audio.
• Neotech also produces UP-OCC silver but in a much lighter gauge

I did try 1 x 18 gauge VH Audio solid silver wire with AirLok insulation in two power cables for my low power source components, which provided better sound...

• but that has now been replaced with 1 x 12 gauge Neotech solid UP-OCC copper inside a PVC tube (but Teflon would have been a better choice).

RE: NUMBER OF STRANDS...
Whilst it appears that a double strand of wire seems to be beneficial, increasing the number of strands beyond two does not appear to provide much more in terms of sonic performance - it just costs more

• at present the VH Audio UP-OCC solid silver is only available up to 18 gauge
• the Neotech UP-OCC is an even lighter gauge
• so to use it for power cables would require 4 (or more) strands to equate to 12 gauge
• this would increase costs significantly
• but would it provide much better performance?

I do have a $LIMIT to what I am prepared to spend on cables and I think I may have reached it.

You also have to consider diminishing returns

• the naked UP-OCC copper in Teflon tube  is providing stunning performance
• so how much improvement would UP-OCC solid silver achieve???

RE: OXIDATON...
SO how much of an impact might the oxidation on the solid copper in Teflon be???

• to this point that is the BIG unknown
• but if I think about the copper used on buildings - it takes about 5 years exposure to the elements for the green patina to take hold
• my wire is inside is sealed Teflon tube with very little space for air
• I do not think I will be replacing wire within a 10-15 year period
• by then I will probably be past caring
  
• but I am monitoring its progress monthly
• to date (after a month) it seems to have stalled
• The speaker cables have been several months and still very bright

However - If anyone has the budget to try the VH Audio solid silver - give it a try - you'll probably get 20-30 years before the silver sulfide (i.e. the black tarnish) impacts sound quality.

Hope that answers you question :-)

Regards - Steve

@williewonka 

Have you tried a Naked Solid Silver cable yet? Do you think you would need to replace the wire down the road?

OK, so in my post on 01-20-2021 6:13pm (on page 6) I talked about removing the insulation from the Neotech and VH Audio wires for the signal wires of my interconnects. I said at the end of the post that I would provide an update on the burn-in process - this is IT :-)

So today, I was only planning on listening casually and I had not listened to an album by Colin Blunstone for a while, so I pulled it out of its sleeve and plonked it on the turntable..

As the "needle dropped" the sound was breathtaking. I had never heard details or imaging antwhere near as good as this - EVER !!!

So after listening to the album, I thought what about the digital rig - is that gonna be as good???
- it has identical cables made around the same time and had a little more burn-in under it’s belt

Since I subscribe to Amazon Prime, I searched for Colin Blunstone and as it turns out they had a few tracks

Playing those tracks simply confirmed that my digital rig was very close to my analogue rig and provided the same spacious and detailed sound.

Now I don’t know if burn-in is complete, but based on this performance - it’s a good way into the process and sounding pretty amazing.

I remember the very first pair of Helix Speaker cables I made - they had a similar impact - a sort of "What The Heck" response.

Today was yet another WTH day, and in between there has been many moments where the improvements were discernable but not quite in the same league as this one.

Up to this point, I was not planning on upgrading my web site with this version of the Helix simply because of the possibility of the bare wires oxidizing and possibly forcing a rewire a few years down the road.

But the impact of this change warrants publication on my web site for all to enjoy AND from my current observations of how well the bare wire seems to be holding up I think that publication is a must.

The sound my system is producing is amazing me more everyday - i have NEVER heard anything this good and I have listened to systems upwards of $300k with over 30k in cables alone. By comparison my system MSRP is around 17k including cables and stand.

I can only imagine the sound some other members must be getting from their systems :-)

Now the only thing left...

• I used to use a version number to denote a new release - like MK I, MK II,etc...
• with the latest version I changed from a version number to a new name - The Helix IMAGE, because of its outstanding imaging
• so, do I call this one - The Naked Helix? or Helix au Naturel? or ???

Time will tell :-)

FYI - I have adopted the bare wire inside a Teflon (or PVC) tube approach on ALL my cables. For the signal or live wires I use

• 1 x 12 gauge Neotech UP-OCC copper on power cables
• 1 x 14 gauge Neotech UP-OCC copper on speaker cables
• 2 x 18 gauge Neotech AND VH Audio UP-OCC copper wire on the interconnects
• The neutral remains Silver plated stranded Mil-Spec wire
• I am toying with a 2 x 14 gauge Neotech UP-OCC live conductor for a power cable - still contemplating this one

If you haven’t tried the Helix using the bare wire inside a Teflon tube approach - give it a whirl - you WILL NOT regret it.

It is a significant improvement, with absolutely stunning results

Regards - Steve

@maxuima95 - YES - only for the speaker cable !

Here is my understanding (and I am paraphrasing heavily here)...

• the "balanced" audio signal that comes through an XLR Interconnect (e.g. from a DAC) is "processed" by the receiving component (e.g. a pre-amp) such that any noise is removed, resulting in a single audio signal (not two)
• If the pre-amp has XLR outputs the "clean" audio signal is again "processed" into two signals 180 degrees out of phase, but there needs to be a neutral to complete the circuit
• Now in a Balanced "symmetrical" amp design, the signal comping into the XLR input is processed in the same manner as the pre-amp processed it’s XLR input
• but in the output stage of the amp a principle similar to a balanced power supply is employed, in that two signals that are 180 degrees out of phase is used to drive the speaker - BUT there is NO neutral at the output
• so if you were the speaker - the signal in one wire will effectively "pull" the voice coil and the signal in the other wire will effectively "push" the voice coil and vice versa as the signal moves from the +ve cycle to the -ve cycle.
  
• So what happens if the HELIX SPEAKER CABLES are used to connect the speaker to this type of amp - the UP-OCC Signal wire has excellent transmission capability, but the neutral cable being 2.5 times longer and only silver plated copper, does not conduct it’s 180 degree out of phase signal quite as "accurately" as the signal wire does
• This results in imperfect forces being applied to the voice coil and clarity, tone, imaging dynamics are impacted and the resulting sound is not as good as it could be
• However - the amp WILL NOT suffer any damage as a result of the Helix cables being connected.

I hope that explains things :-)

Regards - Steve

Steve, 

Not meaning to split hairs, the ICE module referred to is the 1200AS  (or 1200AS2 if a stereo amp).  I'm sure they are configured the same way.

As far as you are aware, is this compatibility concern related to the speaker cable only?

Thanks 

@lionel  just found Ice Power Module details - in the literature that is available online- 

The speaker output of the 200AS1 is a balanced output with two active signal lines capable of driving complex speaker loads. As the speaker output is already in a balanced configuration, bridging of two channels is not possible.

So I can confirm the Helix Cables WILL NOT sound their best with this amp

Regards - Steve

Hey Steve - I appreciate the honesty. Down the road I will build a PC & IC with your formula. Thanks for your sharing!

To answer your question, no, my amp doesn't have a manual.  It is a Mivera Purepower built from an IcePower module (the 1200as).  

@lionel - if the amp has balanced speaker outputs then the Helix cables will not work well with it, but you will not damage the amp to my knowledge

Another word used for this "fully balanced" type of design is "Symmetrical"

One member has tried the Helix with this design and said they sounded awful. Once I found out the reason I added the warning to my web site.

A lot of commercial brands of cable will not sound their best with this type of amp design.

The best approach is to use two individual wires that are NOT joined in any way and keep them about 2" apart.

Silversmith Fedelium Speaker cables might be a very good match - a pair of 10ft cables is $1400, which in todays world is not too bad. A lot of people on this forum like them

Silversmith Audio

You could also try Van den Hul D352 wire and separate the conductors, or there are even better offerings from VanDen Hul.

NOTE: Speaker cables for this design should NOT be twisted together, as with XLR Interconnect cables, because the speakers lack the circuitry that eliminates noise.

A QUESTION FOR YOU: does the manual for the amp explain what type of speaker cable should/could be used?

I have an issue with companies that omit crucial information pertaining to their products that could result in damage - e.g. quite a few solid state high current designs DO NOT like speaker cables with very high capacitance, which can drive the amp to oscillate and damage the amp. NAIM has the same issue but makes their customer aware of it on their web site.

A TOTL offering from Cardas has very high capacitance, but Cardas are not to blame because those cables work perfectly well for Tube Amps

An acquaintance blew an Ayre and a Gryphon using Cardas cables - that's $20k total - all because the amp companies DID NOT make him aware of the issue .

OK - I'll get off my soap box now :-)

Regards - Steve





.

Thanks Steve for your thoughts.

One more thing...

My amp uses an IcePower 1200as which is class D and FULLY BALANCED.  There have been references that the SC does NOT work with a fully balanced amp on the build page.  Am I reading this right to mean that this SC is not a good match?

@lionel - I have tried the Mundorf Solid Silver/gold, which is pretty close to the wire you mentioned just from a purity perspective

However, it seems there is something very special about the UP-OCC copper from either Neotech or VH Audio, because it performed better than the Mundorf.Silver/Gold(1%)

Right now the only wire that might perform better than the UP-OCC copper is the UP-OCC solid Silver wire from VH Audio, which is ..99999 purity and it is created using the UP-OCC process  which is definitely proving to provide exceptional performance

However - everybody has a budget to consider and the Riogrande Wire is a very affordable alternative when compared to the Mundorf Solid Silver and even the VH Audio Solid Copper.

I would "guestimate" its performance would be on par with the Mundorf Solid Silver/gold wire.

So - it really boils down to your budget, but this wire appears to be  worth considering

Many Thanks - Steve

What an incredible read!

Any thought about replacing the SC signal wire using 12g dead soft .999 silver wire (or lower) from Rio Grande?  - $13/ft.

.999 Fine Silver Round Wire, 12-Ga., Dead-Soft (riogrande.com)

Thanks...

Steve, TL-3N
I’m already hearing what you describe, a car horn blowing outside, someone scuffling or coughing in studio.

Haven’t heard a mouse fart yet🙄

You’re totally correct about power supplies, good, better, best will pretty much determine percentage of sound resulting.

Your cable recipe really works, thanks much.

@rx8man - I just took a look at the CEC lineup and they are very nice units - which one do you have?

You should hear significantly more details with improved clarity, better dynamics and more spacious imaging.

But sometimes the amount of improvement depends on how good the power supply in the component is.

Having said that - my Bryston B135 integrated, that has three independent power supplies for preamp and L/R channels, surprised me by improving significantly across the board.

Also, Bryston is a company that is known for its quality power supplies, so you can never predict the outcome - you have to listen

Keep an ear out for what I call "venue acoustics" those little reverberations and echoes of the instruments.

On one recording I have of a classical quartet recorded in a small concert room, you can clearly hear a bus drive by in the background - something I had not heard before these cables

Looking forward to hearing your observations

I think you are in for a real treat :-)

Regards - Steve

Aside from the variable wire type selections, the sonic attributes of the Helix design concept in general enabled me to actually re-discover my "older" (80’s) CD recordings in a very analogue, musical way, big surprise🙄

I’m a huge Frank Marino/Mahogany Rush fan, my rock recordings in the past Never, Ever sounded anything near to what they do now.

Everything is well separated, quiet, with ambience, subtle ques, additional details and a relaxed, easeful presentation (better than the LP counterparts) which is saying a lot for Digital.

My wire order finally arrived, thanks to the Post Office speedy one month service.

I’m moving up the food chain and building another Helix PC for my CEC transport this weekend.

@debjit_g - I believe @grannyring prefers the Silver VH Audio over the VH Audio copper.

I tried the silver on power cables for source components and preferred it over the VH Audio copper

But if you are planning to use a "naked" signal wire in teflon tube / cotton tube / silk tube then for me the VH Audio Copper is extremely good.

Otherwise I found the Neotech solid copper with Teflon to sound better than the VH Audio copper with AirLok insulation

But again, others preferred the sound of the VH Audio Solid copper.

You hear some of us extol the virtues of the various wires but there really is not a great deal of difference between them, Personal preference plays a part and different systems plays a part, but in the end they all sound extremely good.

There is a $limit to my "insanity" so I'd go for the copper and use the savings to fund the next cable :-)

Hope that Helps Steve

@williewonka Steve,
thanks again.
Have you or @wig or @grannyring compared the VH/Neotech OCC Copper vs the VH OCC Silver ? The 18awg is pricey at $40/ft and if one has to make a double run, it would be very expensive. Any comparison would be helpful.

Myself and others have tried many variations of cabling and Vh Audio and Neotech will give you very good sounding cabling at a fraction of the cost of a mediocre commercial cable.

Have fun with the build and remember you can always tweak it to suit your system needs.

Wig 

@grannyring  I don't doubt the superiority of the helix designs.
What I meant was more that some people's concerns about oxidization led us back to the tinning of copper wire to prevent that.

Moving on.  Has anyone tried this?
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/wires/neotech-gp-ocg-gold-plated-copper-wire.html

@ketchup - it is the best wire of the many wires I have tried over the past 6 years of Helix development, specifically for the neutral wire of the Helix Cables

Perhaps it's more the silver plating, but the thickness of the Teflon, thickness of the silver plating etc. etc. also plays a role. 

As I have stated many times - the nice things about DIY is that the person building the cables get to choose the wire of their choice

I am simply conveying what I have found to work extremely well and the Mil-spec wire from Take Five Audio is my particular choice

Regards - Steve

Is mil spec wire really that big of a deal?  Everything I read about it is related to it's durability and temperature resistance, and stereo cables don't need to be durable or resistant to extreme temps at all.  Is there more to it than that?

I just found this place - they have 10, 12 and 16 gauge and sell by the foot - it’s NOT mil-spec, but it is stranded silver plated copper that should hold the helix shape quite well

FEP Teflon Silver Plated Copper Wire (Cu/Ag 16AWG) MDY-FEP16 (performance-pcs.com)

Plus - Worldwide shipping

Regards

@debjit_g - here are your answers..

1. NAKED means without insulation.
2. I inserted the naked wire into a larger diameter teflon tube and sealed the ends using adhesive lined heat shrink available from many places on the web
   
3. Two runs of 18 gauge eqauals 15 gauge, so the 14 gauge was thicker, hence the need for only a single strand
4. If you are in the US try https://www.apexjr.com/wire.html
   
5. If you are outside the US then Take Five Audio, Parts Connexion, and HiFi Collective are stores I use for my wires
6. You can search on eBay as well

The problem with finding more affordable Mil-spec wires

• their quality can vary and there are leterally dozens of spec’s they could conform too including
• Quality of copper
• thickness and quality of the silver plating
• The thickness of the insulation
• Most (if any) are not cryo-treated
• The Take Five Audio wire is very good quality AND it is cryo-treated
• so really - you do get what oyu pay for
• I have only ever used the Mil-Spec wire from Take Five Audio - perhaps the highest quality and Cryo-treated
• Jantzen stranded silver plated wire is another wire I have heard performs very well for the Neutral

For a more budget oriented cable that performs very well you could use a solid copper with Teflon sleeve

• I used one when I started this design and it worked quite well -but not as good as the Mil-spec
• however I was not using the same signal wires as I do today, so it could prove to be very good and much more affordable

Granted - the wires we are using today makes the Helix cables more expensive than most other DIY solutions to build, but as @grannyring has pointed out - they are outperforming commercial products that cost thousands of dollars

But the nice thing with DIY - you get to use the wires/connectors that suit YOUR budget

Regards - Steve

At the input of the amplifier I have a Duelund CAST-Cu. Copper twisted bare wires come out of it. I asked Duelund a question: do I need to cover this wire with something? The answer is no, it will degrade the sound!
I dealt with OCC copper plated with gold, and on top with a thin layer of polyurethane varnish. Very good wire and I like it more than MUNDORF solid silver / gold. But I do not have enough air and it's all about this insulation. Now I have washed off this polyurethane and am assembling the cable. Let's see what the result will be(although this is understandable!).
On the positive side, the gold plating remains and there is no need to worry about copper oxidationВведите свой текст ...

@williewonka Steve,
thanks so much for the detail answer.

I know the Mundrof silver/gold very well and use both the 15.5awg and 18awg in my DIY server power supply and all DC cables. They are fantastic to say the least. Unfortunately, they bumped their prices couple of months ago and now I would tend to use them in critical areas if I had to cut down in price, with only Neotech PTFE solid core as the replacement. I haven’t used the Mundrof in other parts of the audio, mainly signal and speaker cables, so its refreshing to hear that a lower priced VH Audio cable is as suitable. Thank you.

When you say naked, you probably meant stripping the insulation off the wire ? Did you have any other jacket on it ? say a cotton shelving ? For the speaker cables, I see that you used double runs of VH Audio 18awg but used a single run of Neotech 14awg. Was there any need for double runs on the Neotech ?


On the Helix, what awg would be suitable for the Mil-Spec ? Any link where I can but it cheap ?

@twoleftears. I have made and sold cables with the Duelund stranded and tinned copper wire in oil impregnated copper for years. I have built ICs, USBs, speaker cables, DC cables, jumpers etc... and I like that conductor. The Helix is just heads and heals better with either the VH Audio or Neotech copper wire with the Teflon insulation in place.

We are now talking about squeezing out even more performance from the very best many of us have ever heard or built. Don’t misunderstand the point of our latest posts.  The double helix design as outgunned cables selling for up to $13,000! This is reality. Yes, these are that good. As much as I loved my Acoustic BBQ Double Smoked Duelund cables I have to admit these helix designs surpass them in every sonic attribute important to us Aphiles.

@debjit_g - I tried a full Duelund Signal and Duelund neutral interconnect probablby last year and it was identical to the same cable with the Mil-spec neutral.

Others in Europe have tried some very good wires for the Neutral on speaker and interconnects and found it made no difference, hence why I still recommend the Mil-Spec for the neutral

As for the signal/live wire - my pref’s in descending order (for all cables)

1. Neotech Solid UP-OCC copper (Naked)
2. VH Audio Solid UP-OCC copper (Naked) no difference from #1
3. Neotech solid UP-OCC copper (Teflon)
4. VH Audio Solid UP-OCC copper (AirLok)
5. Mundorf solid silver/gold (in cotton sleeve)
6. Duelund stranded tinned copper in cotton/oil (interconnect and speaker cables only)
7. Duelund stranded tinned copper in Polycast insulation for live wire in power cables

The gauge and umber of wires used are as follows

• for IC’s 2 x 18 gauge for Neotech, VH Audio, Mundorf and Duelund was 1 x 18 gauge cotton oil
• For speaker cables using Neotech 1 x 14 gauge
• For speaker cables using VH Audio, 2 x 18 gauge
• For speaker cables using Duelund, 1 x 16 and 1 x 12 gauge
  
• For power cables with Neotech 1 x 12 gauge
• For power cables with VH Audio 4 x 18 gauge
• For power cables with Duelund 1 x 12 gauge with Polycast insulation
  

What difference are there between these wires?

• all are very good wires to use for the signal wires but as you apporach my #1 - the image gets bigger and more focussed, the dynamics are faster and the clarity and details improve.
• Duelund is not as fast as the UP-OCC copper or the silver, so dynamics are a little slower, but that translates to being less aggressive and more "laid back", so it really depends on the ears of the listener and the music they listen too
• Also, my system is all solid state, so there would very likely be a slight change in my order if I were to hear the wires on an all tube system.
• But I stress these are MY PREFERENCES on MY SYSTEM in MY LISTENING SPACE.

The one thing I have come to appreciate about the Helix Deign is that it is very easy to change the signal wires, so you could start with Duelund and easily move to something else later

I would probably skip the Mundorf Solid Silver/gold because the VH Audio Solid Copper wire with the AirLok insulation was better and costs less

I have not included the VH Audio Solid Silver wire because on my system, the Solid Copper was almost as good as the Mundorf at 1/5th the price, but I know others have tried it and love the results on their system

Perhaps @wig and @grannyring - or anyone else - can provide their comments - because different opinions makes for a more informed choice.

BTW - My musical taste is pretty much anything that sounds amazing, so I have lots to choose from, but I can appreciate some genres might sound better with a more "relaxed sounding" wire.

Hope that helps Steve

so I am very interested to build a pair of 8ft speaker cables. Currently using Duelund DCA 12GA.

Has anyone done a full Duelund Helix configuration ? Can someone (grannyring or Steve) summarise what is the latest wires to use for the positive and neutral wires ?

Which leads us back full circle to the Duelund tinned copper in cotton.

Is the red stuff a DIY version of what Anti-Cables does?

If you feel you want to coat the naked wire, then use a Sprayon product called red insulating varnish. This is what is used to spray transformer windings to prevent shorts. It is electrical grade.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M0RQC27/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


I think it would most likely degrade the sound vs nude. How much? If at all? No need with silver as oxidation that deteriorates sound quality is not an issue with silver. I know some folks will argue oxidation and sound degradation happens with pure silver, but have owned and built many pure silver cables, I have yet to hear or see any deterioration after almost 15 years! My home is always temperature controlled and maintains a humidity level under 40 however.

 This spray is for those who are concerned about copper. Jupiter and other companies make copper in cotton conductors and I have used these for years without any sound or serious oxidation problems. However, on paper it can sure happen. 

@duffyd - definitely food for thought for sure

So in my case I used s twisted pair, so I might take this approach...

• I would apply this coating after the wires were twisted, because the twisting could remove the coating
• keep the coats very thin by wiping off any excess between coats
  
• apply 2 thin coats

Now ...

• applying any type of coating will increase the Dielectric Constant when compared to the naked wire
• but to what level would be he question
• but the effect of a couple of thin coats should be negligible

Personally, from what I am observing, i.e. by comparing my "naked" wires inside the sealed tube to the piece of naked wire I have sitting on my audio rack - I’m not ready to add this step to my cables just yet

It might be easy to achieve for 1 - 2 meter cables, BUT for my 10 ft speaker cables, it would present significant challenges, especially in my cramped winter work space at present

One member had suggested wiping the naked wire with WD40.

• easy to do in almost any space
• readily available
• and very affordable
• I just don’t know how effective this is - just yet :-)

Keep the ideas coming - Steve

At risk of proposing something silly, what about this product? Basically a coating on the bare wire to prevent oxidation? Then add the cotton or silk sleeve.
https://shop.everbritecoatings.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=23&a...

This is how I build my helix usb.   Go to Steve’s site where he posted my pics and build instructions.  Best to not have to make the cable with the 5v conductor if possible.  Many dacs supply their own clean 5v internally for the usb input.  Some do not. Here is the link. 

You can use VH Audio 18 gauge silver or copper for the data conductors.  Silver sounds better than copper.  You can strip off the Teflon insulation and cover with silk for the best sound.  Each data conductor much be placed in a 1.5-2.5mm internal dimension silk tube before making a twisted data pair. 

You must be skilled at soldering the thicker gauge wires onto the tiny and closely spaced usb solder pads.  Any solder bridges will ruin you dac’s usb input board! 

http://www.image99.net/blog/files/category-002ahelix-image-usb-cable.html

@ grannyring - regarding USB cable?

I have not fully understood how you build the USB cable. Can you explain a bit in more detail please?

The 2 data lines (d+ and d-) habe been twisted together. But how did you do the +5V line? The 3 ground lines (18gauge) habe been helixed around what? The 2 data lines including 5V line or is the 5V line separated?

.Hello everyone!
I read the thread with great interest!
This is one of the most interesting topics that I have been able to see lately!
I join your research!
I think the next step is to make a few dozen turns of thread (silk or cotton) around the wire and then insert it into the tube.
There is still something to strive for :-)

I think silk may well sound even better than a Teflon tube. Don’t know for sure, but seems reasonable. I plan on making the exact same copper usb cable with a Teflon tube and also silk.   Right now the nude VH Audio 18 gauge copper in cotton sounds just amazing in my usb cable.

So I do appreciate the penchant for "Natural Fibers" but here is why I chose Teflon tube...

• if you took a cross section view of the wire inside the tube it appears as a small circle inside a large circle, so the point of contact is extremely small and only every a single point of contact, because if one side is touching, the other side is not
  
• it does not collapse when bent gently- but even if the tube collapses at an "L" shape bend - the surface area of contact is still extremely small.
• The degree of dielectric effect comes from the amount of insulation actually touching the wire, which in this case is about as low as you can "humanly" achieve.
• so the bulk of the dielectric for this approach is actually AIR
• The oxygen in the air is unable to permeate through the Teflon - good for limiting oxidation
• Sealing the tube at both ends is an effective method to minimize oxidation of the bare wire

If you are concerned about vibration you could put a cotton/silk sleeve over the Teflon tube to minimize this effect

Also, thinking back to a few months ago, I had tried a twisted pair of Mundorf Silver/gold wire in cotton tube and eventually found the VH Audio wire with the insulation sounded better, which is another reason I shied away from the cotton insulation this time around.

• I cannot say that the cotton was responsible, but we are all swayed by our previous success or failures.

It is a personal choice and either one will provide exceptional sound quality..

Right now I am experiencing the most open and detailed image with smooth highs, stunning clarity, extremely fast dynamics and a very articulate and deep bass response.

• Also I have have not observed any anomalies normally associated with burn-in
• which is making me think that burn-in is more about the insulation than the wire?

Nirvana? - perhaps, or it could be just another wire away :-)

Regards - Steve

Grannyring Re: 
Always use silk or wool if possible, because these are horn substances(keratin) like our nails, hair etc.
Cotton isn’t and I remember that Steen Duelund didn’t like it at his cables and he had a fantastic hearing ;0)

I have made my usb cable the same way as you with ohno silver and it sounds great, but I think I have to try John Swensons JSSG
2 screens just connected with each other in the ends, around the 2 data conducters. 

More listening to these nude VH Audio copper conductors in my usb cable has me shaking my head. My goodness this is sounding great! Darn....I have to strip my ICs and put the nude VH & Neotech positive conductors in silk, cotton or Teflon tubing.  I am leaning towards silk. I would like to stay away from Teflon and keep all natural.   Maybe buy the VH silver conductors and place in silk.  

I built a usb cable with the VH Audio 18 gauge solid core copper conductors on the data conductors. The foamed Teflon insulation was stripped off. I placed the bare wire conductor into a cotton jacket. I twisted the individual cotton covered data conductors into a twisted pair. I used three of the VH Audio 18 gauge solid core copper conductors as the outer ground helix shield (triple) with the insulation on.

Steve’s comments are spot on! Best sounding usb cable I have made to date. Just beautiful sounding.

Will the copper oxidize under the cotton? Maybe yes. Maybe no. Maybe it will not impact the sound over time? Plenty of silk and cotton covered wire sold.

@nwres - that's good for US customers. Unfortunately the do not export - not even to Canada - shame :-(

From their web site...

Exportation Policy

Sorry, no international sales. We are not an exporting company. We have no exporting license, and, because we often deal with govt./ military surplus, we do not want to give even the impression that we are selling abroad (including Canada and Mexico).

Regards - Steve

Steve, I have ordered Mil Spec from Skycraft. Good service, quick shipping.