I have been an avid user of the Duelund cabling for
over two years now and have used them exclusively in my system with great
results. I have built many for friends and have used a full loom of
interconnects, speaker cables, power cords and an extensive wiring modification
for a previously owned balanced power conditioner utilizing Duelund 600V PolyCast
wiring which was transformative. My cabling desires can be a little addictive
as I have owned and evaluated 40+ brands of cabling costing more than an entire
stereo system!
Over the past six months I stumbled upon a thread here
on Audiogon in regards to a Helix designed cabling and as you probably already
know, I just had to look a little deeper into this cable design…After a month
of studying and sourcing parts, I decided to reach out to the
designer/architect, Williewonka who gave more insights and philosophy on how
the cable came into existence.
That conversation got the ball rolling in converting
one of my KLE Duelund interconnects to Steve’s Helix designed which only entailed
replacing the neutral with a Mil-Spec 16 AWG silver-plated copper wire with the
neural wire being 3 times longer than the signal wire and of course the “Coiling”
of the neutral wire : )
After the modification was complete, I was not sure
what to expect from the Helix cabling but I was quite shocked with the results
with “ZERO” burn-in time…The sound stage became much wider/deeper with a much
tighter/focused image and clarity/transparency is like nothing I have ever
heard in any cabling regardless of cost. In fact, I just sold a full loom of a commercially
designed Helix Cable that’s renowned around the world and has more direct sale
than any cable manufacturer; these $200 DIY Helix Cables walked all over them…
I believe you will hear the same results as I have and
have heard back from friends who have already modified their Duelunds with the
same results; WOW! Remember the cables will need 200+ hours to burn-in and
settle into your system. My system is now 90% DIY Helix to include IC, SC, PC
and Coax with each cabling adding its beauty of an organic and natural
presentation that draws you into the fabric of the music.
You can tailor the sound of your cables using Duelund,
Mundorf silver/1% gold, the outstanding Vh Audio OCC Solid Copper or Silver with Airlok
Insulation or your favorite wiring and you can change it at any time…
if there is a ground pin on the IEC socket of a component then the component has been designed in such a way that in the event of some kind of internal failure then the user will be protected
in such cases, the ground SHOULD NOT be disabled in any way
If there is NO ground pin then having the ground wire in the cables makes no difference.
I believe it may contravene electrical codes
it is certainly the first place an investigator will look
I realize this is a favorite method of many audiophiles to eliminate noise that is often referred too as "ground loop hum",
More often than not, this problem arises when you combine certain components... e.g. amps that have a grounded power cable - with other components that DO NOT have a grounded power cable.
Components with Wal-Wart power supplies are prone to this problem
e.g. I have a Bluesound Node 2 (ungrounded) and a Simaudio Moon phono stage (grounded)
If I only connect the Node 2 to my amp I get a hum
if I then attach the phono stage the hum goes away
this is because the neutral side of "the system" is actually grounded via the phono stage
this approach is used in many amp designs
This is a common problem, so if I ONLY want to use the Node 2 and NOT have the hum, I have a little wire lead that I attach to the NEUTRAL of any UNUSED INPUT on the amp and the ground pin of the mains supply. - VOILA! - no more hum
This effectively ensures the neutral side of the circuits in ALL connected components are now at ZERO volts - where they theoretically should be
I came across this issue about 12 years ago when I purchased a NAIM amp. Turns out the circuits in NAIM amps are designed to "ground" via their source components. I investigated my source that caused the problem and found a small voltage on the neutral side of the components circuit - it was NOT at zero volts relative to the mains ground - grounding the neutral solved the problem
PLEASE NOTE: this solution IS NOT a remedy for all hums - some hums can be caused by circuit malfunctions or imbalances.
e.g. I recently saw a video that demonstrated how a seemingly good tube from one manufacturer caused a severe hum in an amp. Please note - The solution above would not fix this issue.
Apologies for the long post - I like to provide context :-)
Some power cord manufacturers for example Audio Envy do not connect the ground on their IEC end power cord for a source component , what are your thoughts on this and has anyone here done this ?
@wig - did you use bare wire inside the teflon tube?
I found that using the bare wire in Teflon tubes did not require anywhere near as much burn in as the wire with insulation, but then the connectors and neutral wires were already well used, so that may have something to do with it
Updated Helix Air Speaker Cable version contains 2-12 ga Milspec on negative and 2 runs of 16 ga Neotech OCC solid copper on positive and outfitted with Techflex...
@Luisma31 - From what I have read the Atma-Shere amps appear to be
Balanced Differential Design, which means the HELIX Speaker cables WILL NOT perform their best when connected to these amps.
As suggest in an earlier post for another member, you could make two UP-OCC bare conductors in Teflon tube that follow the Air adaption on my web site
This gives you the benefit of conductors that effectively has Air as their dielectric, which translates to improved clarity, dynamics and imaging
How to construct a prototype...
Go to the dollar store and buy some children's alphabet blocks
Go to the hardware store and buy some little screw-in ring eyelets
screw one in each side of the block - it will space the two wires
Follow the instruction on my site for the Air adaption of the signal wire for speaker cables
thread the two wires through the eyelets to maintain a gap between the two conductors
I would still use the KLE Innovations Banana plugs
Connect to the system and enjoy
You can build a more "professional" spacer one the concept is proven
If you would like a more detailed info please contact me via the email address on my web site
These amplifiers adopt a completely "balanced" design approach in that the speaker outputs have a +ve and -ve terminal
Nice posting Steve, after trying many cables on my Atmasphere mono amps and preamp rig over the last few years I realized cables wouldn't really make much difference on it. Which is what Ralph have been saying for decades about the cable colorations in true balanced equipment.
Now I don't know if the speaker outputs are also balanced on Atmasphere equipment but trying different speaker cables (of normal length 4 to 9 ft and normal typical gauge 10 to 16) doesn't make much difference either. I believe the sauce that makes the whole chain impervious to colorations is upstream.
But thank you all for posting, following your notes I will give the Helix a try.
@mawe - #3 is correct - BUT #1 should be UP-OCC Silver - thanks for brining it to my attention :-)
Here’s the correct list - and I’ve deleted the post with the mistake --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I had not seen IACS rating for UP-OCC metals before, so I thought I would post this list of all metals commonly used in audio products
Electrical Conductivity or IACS rating
International Annealed Copper Standard
where Tough Pitch copper is the benchmark at 100%
The IACS rating (i.e. conductivity) for the best conductors are
UP-OCC Silver - 107%
Pure Silver - 105%
UP-OCC copper - 103%
OFC Copper - 101%
Pure copper (aka Tough Pitch) - 100%
Please Note: the values above may vary slightly depending on the source
Other metals frequently used in audio applications for plating...
Gold - 70%
Rhodium - 39%
Nickel - 24%
Platinum - 16%
When use for plating, these metals require a substrate plating material to be placed on the copper first.
However - Silver is the only metal that can be plated directly onto copper without degrading performance
Other copper alloys most used, especially for pins in Connectors of all types...
Tellurium Copper - 93 %
Beryllium Copper - 45%
Brass - 26%-27%
Bronze - 15%-19%
Hope this clarifies yet another part of the cables puzzle
I have meticulously read through about 70% of the Thread and have a much better grasp of the preferences of the Cable Builders.
My Last list of Cables was presented was more in keeping with selecting cables for a Version of IC's I had in mind.
This thread has caused me to rethink that earlier thought pattern.
I had continued a Search since my last post and discovered a supplier of PC Triple C Wire 34 x 0.18mm ( 18 AWG ).
As a result of the discovery of the wire supplier I was hoping to discover a positive report on using this AWG 'Stranded Wire' within this thread.
I believe Steve - 'williwonka' tried a version with stranded wire on a Guitar Lead ?
Also 'grannyring' has reported on the using of stranded wire, but has sung the praises of Solid Core and the much improved benefits of using it.
With this additional information as a motivation, I have extended my search and come up with a option that is in keeping with the preferences being made on this thread, and I hope is seen as useful to the inquisitive Cable Builders visiting the thread.
Acoustic Revive are producing a Speaker Cable that has a PC Triple C Wire Solid Core 0.9mm ( 19 AWG ). The cost of this is sold by the Metre ( 39 Inches ) @ GBP £ 6.00. Effectively £ 3.00 per Single Metre Length.
It will be purchased to be Imported. Shipping and Import Levies will apply to the above.
Additionally I have in the past been working out RCA Plug Options for RCA's I as intending on experimenting with.
I bought Aeco RCA Connectors with a Solid Silver Live/Centre Pin. ( Similar to KLEI pricing )
I was also going to try out Zavfino 1877 RCA Connectors with a OCC Copper Live/Centre Pin. ( Quite Affordable for Four Units )
I have not seen the above Connectors referred to during my reading of the thread.
A Friend has KLEI RCA Connectors in both Silver and Copper so these were going to be used to assist with the assessments of the Cable Builds produced by myself.
As a side: I have indirectly entered the world of Helix Cables as I have in use for many years Mapleshade Clearview Double Helix Speaker Cables. These Superseded all other cables I owned.
@twoleftears - thanks for that - yes they are - I’ll update the list
@provst - I cannot find anything on the Gryphon site that states they have Symmetrical, Complimentary, or Balanced outputs. They are PURE CLASS A - but they were mentioned earlier with respect to the impact of using high capacitance speaker cables which can do damage via oscillation
I believe Gryphon amps will work very well with Helix Cables
Don't forget Gryphon. These were mentioned earlier in the thread as with regards to speaker cables. I cannot tell whether their power supplies are balanced or not.
when I first started developing the Helix cables I tries several excellent smaller gauge wires - 28, 24 and 20
Over time, and with feedback from others trying different wires of different gauge, materials and insulation, it would appear the wires currently mentioned on my web site provide excellent performance
however, other members do have a preference for different wires in their system.
The one area that most seem to agree on is that two wires for signal and two for neutral seems to provide a noticeable improvement over a single wire.
I have tried up to 4 wires on the mains cable, but more than two provided no discernible benefit.
The nice thing with DIY is that you get to choose the wires that you believe will provide the best performance and that fit your budget
I now have two power cord in my system
High Power for amps, etc. that use 2 x 14 gauge wires for the live conductor
Low Power for Source components that use 2 x 16 gauge wires for the Live conductor
I use the lighter gauge on the second to save some money only - both cables have identical performance
but you can build one cable for all components if desired
On all my power cables, the neutral is 2 x 12 Silver Plated Mil-spec stranded copper and the ground is 12 gauge copper wire from the hardware store.
The
PC Triple C wire looks very similar to UP-OCC copper, so I would have to guess that it offers similar levels of performance
From the looks of things, the wires you mention might not be suitable to adapt to the options I have listed above for power cables because you would require too many strands to create the required gauge for the conductor.
Having said that I have been proved wrong on many occasions, so I would encourage you to experiment.
Start with Interconnects, because the wire is much more affordable. Make one using the wires suggested on my web site and one using your own wires and see which one works best
My guess is that you will end up with two cables that sound very good, which you can then try on your components to see which matches each components best
FYI - I currently have two slightly difference interconnects in my system because they each suit different components better.
This Thread has got my attention, the very good reports on the use of the cable design is very appealing. It fits quite nicely in with a plan I have been pondering, and to mirror other areas of my HiFi, as I have a System mainly using Devices that are Bespoke Produced.
The idea exchanging my Branded PC OCC Copper and Silver IC's, to produce a Cable Interface with Bespoke Produced Cables has been on my mind for a period of time.
I have recently been investigated the latest Wire Production Methods being used and that are available from the reputable wire producers and have had become interested in Mitsubishi D.U.C.C and Furukawa PC Triple C.
I have purchased a D.U.C.C IC and a Nanotec Power Strada 308 PC Triple C Power Chord. Either of these is yet to be trialled. The Strada 38 has been supplied with Spade Termination but with out Plugs, If a Suitable UK Spec Plug for this cable could be recommended, that will help get the trials moving.
I have discovered during my research a Supplier of PC Triple C wire. Before I attempt to use a buying service for the Cable. I am keen to know if the available Wire is usable for IC's and Power Chord, as the ( AWG ) differs from the commonly referenced ( 16 - 18 AWG )
The listings from the supplier show the Wire can be ordered as : 7 x 0.18mm ( 33 AWG ) PC Triple C 25 x 0.16mm ( 34 AWG ) PC Triple C
7 x 0.3mm ( 28 AWG ) PC Triple C / EX - 5N Silver Outer Wall - Conductivity 105.0 IACS.
Any advice that can be offered on using the above Spec of cable will be very much appreciated.
@williewonka thanks. I saw these but was specifically looking for 5 foot which none are but I guess that’s irrelevant as long as it is long enough. Different brand here in the US but same thing. I just don’t know its diameter.
With a „normal“ 230V AC power line the „life“+ is carrying +230V and „neutral“- is 0V. The outlet of a balanced power conditioner has +115VAC on „life“ and -115VAC on „neutral“ conductor. Therefore both conductor should have same size and length. Otherwise you loose some of the effect of the power conditioner.
a balanced power conditioner is a kind of isolating Trafo with the addition to create from the one phase inlet (in Europe 230V AC) a symmetrical output of +115V AC and -115V AC. All DC, which could be on the 230V input line is eliminated and the new power is not connected to Neutral line, which could have noise and DC as well.
The components, which will plug into this balanced power conditioner will still see a 230V AC, which is the absolute difference between -115V and +115V. They can make a noticeable difference with the big advantage to have no dampening/loss of dynamics. Actually, in most cases they „sound more dynamic“, as the new voltage is always stable 230V, which, on the „normal“ inlet is not the case and we all know the fluctuations of voltage between days and night time. Main reason, that Hi-Fi systems may sound better at night.
@aniwolfe -The balanced power supply is not in the component.
Think of them being similar to a power conditioner.
They can be a separate unit between the outlet and the components,
or attached to the breaker panel and provide power to your system from there
Is it confirmed that Balanced power supplies do not sound good with Helix Powercords or is this just a thought
I have heard from people that tried the speaker cables with amps that use the Balanced/Symmetrical/Complimentary approach and they did not sound very good
It is my opinion that Helix Power Cables will suffer from the very same problems when used with balanced power supplies because the helix design IS NOT symmetrical
Because the Neutral is significantly longer than the Live wire then distortions could occur inside the component’s power supply, which would impact sound quality.
Until I hear otherwise I will not recommend the Helix be used with Balanced power supplies
But as stated above - they WILL NOT damage any connected components
Unfortunately I cannot provide a complete list of amps that use the Balanced/Symmetrical/Complimentary design approach because it appears to be growing quite quickly, but here are some I know of
Can you give examples of components that use Balanced Power Supplies? Any brand names that like to use this? Is it confirmed that Balanced power supplies do not sound good with Helix Powercords or is this just a thought?
IMPORTANT NOTICE: Regarding Helix Speaker Cables and Helix Power Cables
In the last little while I have been made aware of certain amplifier designs for which the Helix Geometry Speaker cables is NOT a good choice.
These amplifiers adopt a completely "balanced" design approach in that the speaker outputs have a +ve and -ve terminal, where the -ve terminal carries the same signal as the +ve terminal, but it is 180 degrees out of phase to the signal on the +ve terminal.
I have also seen this design approach referred to as
Symmetrical or Complimentary
and is increasingly being used by several high end designs in order to allow them to drive difficult loads more easily
PLEASE NOTE: Using a Helix speaker cable will not damage the amp in any way, but the sound is not very good.
THEN JUST YESTERDAY, I realized that this would also be the case for power cables that are connected to a Balanced Power Supply.
Again - the power supply OR the component would not suffer any damage - but components connected to it would just not sound as good as they could.
If you have a amplifier that utilize the "Balanced" design approach then I would suggest using speaker cables made from wires of identical Length, Gauge and Insulation and separated by 1-2 inches. - you can still apply the (Air) adaption, but to both wires
For the power cables - there is no "elegant" alternate solution that would provide the same clarity and dynamics of the Helix Power Cables when used with an unbalanced supply.
So please take this into account when making Helix cables for yourself or others.
There are NO ISSUES with Helix Interconnect Cables to my knowledge
This is currently the only point of concern that I am aware of
Only my power conditioner and amplifier are outfitted with OCC 12 Ga and my other components are outfitted with 2 - 16 Ga OCC Solid Copper on the Live side.
1 - 12 ga solid Neotech OCC/PTFE for the Live (inside the helix) 1 - 12 ga solid Neotech OCC/PTFE for the Neutral part of the helix 1 - 12 ga copper wire for the Ground part of the helix.
The cost of the Neotech wire has been all over the map and when I saw that Parts Connexion was almost half of the cost at Sonic Craft, where I typically buy my Neotech, I jumped on it!
For a new build it adds only $25 to the build and for a conversion of an already built cable, $69 and if you can swing the additional cost, you will be rewarded with a much higher performing cable.
I'm going to convert my DIY Helix Digital Coax "Air" version cable soon and Imagine these benefits will yield greater results there.
@wig - Glad to hear that the benefits justified the expense :-)
You are probably the first to report what sounds like a "significant improvement" as opposed to "marginal", by using better wire for the neutral, but then is is UP-OCC copper, which appears to provide benefits no matter where it is used. Others have tried very good wire from a couple of established brands, but not UP-OCC copper, and they reported only marginal improvement.
I think also that all cables have a tendency to perform differently from one system to the next, because your description of "invisible" speakers and the sound being more "vinyl like" (I’ll assume this means more natural/realistic) is exactly what I am currently experiencing, but all my cables are using the Silver plated Mil-spec from Take Five audio, which is CRYO’d
It stands to reason that using the best quality wire for both signal and neutral conductors should achieve the best performance.
So, do you have any plans to convert other Helix cables?
@traubert - ever since I started developing cables I have come to realize that any change can make some difference (good or bad) in cable performance, so it might be possible to "tune" a cable to a persons preferred sound. What I will add is that the Helix Geometry is one of the most neutral sounding cables around and as such the "tonal qualities" do not change too much
What I and others have tried is varying the number of conductors of the same size - and from that perspective two conductors appear to provide optimal "bang for the buck" e.g. going to 4 wires made no appreciable improvements
Unfortunately, budgets are the restricting factor for most people participating in this thread, but if you are interested in following up on this particular approach we would all appreciate your feedback/findings
@wig I’ve been thinking of doing that. Did you get strand or solid core 12g Neotech for the neutral?
I just replaced the Duelund wire in my amps output to 16g Neotech solid copper and the clarity and texture is incredible. Thinking why didn’t I do this sooner. I’m also contemplating using the 16g Neotech copper in my speakers crossover.
I finally made the decision to order some Neotech 12 Ga OCC
Copper Wire to replace the Neutral Mil-Spec Wire in my PC and I wasn’t prepared
to hear this unbelievable change… The first thing I noticed was complete
blackness/lowering of floor noise, much better channel separation, depth, more
body/texture with images being more vibrant and articulate.
I’m still shaking my head as my speakers before were “chameleon”
but with the Neotech upgrade, my speakers are not there and the sound is more “vinyl-like”
and this is with zero hours on the cables. I converted my dual 12 Ga Mil-Spec wire
to a single Neotech 12Ga OCC Copper and this wire is robust.
If you convert your current DIY Helix Cables to Neotech, I
recommend removing the neutral from your current cables first and coiling the remainder
of the cabling around the Neotech OCC Wire that’s on a rod and sufficiently spaced;
the longer the rod, the better but 6+ feet would be good depending on the
length of you PC.
Again, the change was so amazing that I
converted ALL 5 of my DIY Helix PC to a single Neotech 12Ga OCC Copper Neutral
Wire totaling $325!
They are now on my Audiodharma Cable Cooker for some dielectric exercising for about 4 days and then on to the refrigerator for some settling before placing back in my system....
maxima95- Several years ago I was able to grab a great deal on some Furutech NCF connectors so that’s what I’m using with the double helix.
Each 12g wire went into its own 8g Teflon tubing and was a bit of a pain to get down through the helix. A bigger rod than 5/16 probably would have been better or easier.
Thanks Steve. I figured there must be a reason why you don’t hear this being done and it would be an expensive experiment just to find out.
I received some 16g mil spec from Take Five so I will make an ic set today with it and some bare Neotech 18g to compare to the mil spec I got from Apex jr. Curiosity of the cryo treatment Take Five does to their wire got the best of me.
@t_ramey - I would advise against "mixing metals" on the signal or live conductors of Helix cables.
Back in time, I tried silver plated copper wires for the signal on IC’s and they impacted clarity.
Since then I have use one OR the other, but never mixed them.
My theory is that the two metals convey the signal at two slightly different propagation rates, resulting in distortion
I do recommend the silver plated mil-spec wire for the neutral, but fortunately, the neutral conductor plays a different "role" to the signal conductor, so the silver plated Mil-spec does NOT introduce distortions in the signal.
I have built three power cables using the double helix air version with two having 14g occ copper from Parts Connexion and one with Neotech 12g. They’re all great and the 12g is still burning in but things are opening up sounding phenomenal.
I have two pairs of IC’s with the double helix air with 18g Neotech solid copper and they too are performing stellar with a huge soundstage and provide a real presence of the artists in the room.
Wondering if anybody has tried mixing a copper solid with a silver solid on the signal conductor in their double helix interconnects and if that provides anymore clarity while retaining the warmth or is that not a good idea to mix the two on the signal. I know there are cables that mix silver/gold but have not seen copper/silver.
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