Down To The Crunch

I would buy Vandersteen Quatros at that price 

MY APOLIGIES! I should have titled this post:                                         

Down to the crunch on "Active Speakers"

tomstruck - I’ve heard Vandersteens at that price and didn’t like ’em. Then I would still need to purchase an amp, a DAC, a source (or two) and tons of cables. Been there, done that. Looking for a box solution.

Too bad you didn’t read the post correctly:

"If we could please just keep it to the direct question. I’m not interested in other products on this thread (e.g., neither I’d buy this or that)"

No option to audition these?  

Bucharest A500. Cheap audition period.

rocray - nope, but the reviews have then neck & neck.

fuzztone - always a funny guy! If you're referring to Buchardts they suck, although I've heard their new version S400 MK II is supposed to be a major improvement over the 500.

No option to audition these? 

nope, but the reviews have then neck & neck.

There are class a loudspeakers and there are class a loudspeakers. A Kef LS-50 isn't going to sound as good as a Genisis Prime but it's rated class a by Atkinson. Specs tell you nothing about how a speaker sounds. If you have the jack for this purchase you can afford a plane ticket to go hear one. I highly recommend that you hear before you buy. You might not like them at all even though they measure well.  

russ69 - I can in home trial the Kii 3s with a no hassle return policy and fly to Tennessee to hear the D&D's but that would almost offset the price of the D&D's, Kiis are looking good.

I have a few models of the Genelec actives, they measured good too, but also sounded great!

Kii's are more detailed to me than the D&D. I've trialed both in my house. The controller makes the Kii easier to use but still not easy. D&D is just becoming Roon ready so you only need an ethernet cable and some app (previous they had no app even).  I didn't realize the price difference was so big.  I would not pay $7k more for the Kii's but I did like them slightly better on most music. Be aware they cannot play overly loud, or at least couldn't a year or so ago. I think it was around 95 dB tops that they'd have issues and a limiter kicks in. I would verify this first before taking my word for it as it may have changed. I know this probably wasn't a huge help but net, net is I'd buy the D&D all day with that huge price difference.

I've heard the Genelec 8351b if you like Genelec they are close the D&D the Genelec is bit more detailed the Dutch a tad more bass. I would listen to the 8361a Genelec if you get a chance. Never got a chance to hear  the Kii .

What if was to negotiate and got the Kii 3's complete for $17K, Ya think their worth $4K more than the D7D 8Cs?

djones51 0 yes, heard the Genelecs, they sound great, but the aesthetic just aren't there, sorry.

I heard the D&Ds in November in the bay area. An in home session.

They have a live sound I found very appealing.

Never heard the  Kii brand. I find the the Dutch do things right.

I suppose you have eliminated the Active 50's from ATC

as too Strident?

I have listened to both, I would go for the D & D for sheer practicality; they are relatively simple to set up & operate, very easy to place, very easy to get to sound good.

I agree that the Kii sounded like they offered more hi frequency detail, but they seemed to overload quickly (in a large, 45m2 room) and they were not easy to set up & fine-tune.

All of the above is empirical, of course, and I listened to large scale orchestral music on both sets, i.e. the Kii may perform loud & clear on less complex music.

They are both outstanding designs IMO, as as is the large Genelec.

By design I would go for the Kii Audio speakers. They are bound to have better midrange and bass.

@navyyachts, I think that Kii 3s are at another level of performance. 

  I Selectable correction for free-standing, near wall or in corner (14 positions) 

 II Phase response: selectable, linear phase or minimum latency 

III Active Wave Focusing crossover filter 

IV Amplification: 1500 W full-custom Class D 

Putszys Comment on the Limiter / Low Frequency Output: 

“ The intent of the limiter is not to protect the driver (those are rather robust) but to avoid the fairly ugly distortion you get when the drivers self-limit. In other words, it’s more a matter of keeping the sound quality acceptable irrespective of the volume setting. But that necessarily requires the limiter to start operating well before the drivers self-limit “. 

Erin’saudiocorner’s, Comment on Listening / KiiThree:  

“ It’s worth mentioning that I typically only hear this symmetry in a soundstage with concentric drivers (think Kef, Genelec). We know those employ point-source drivers with time-aligned drivers. Stands to reason the practically-perfect step response (time alignment) of this speaker is responsible for the awesome symmetry “. 

For me the applied acoustic and electro-acoustic innovation speaks volumes. 

Six Drivers – four bass drivers ( six inch / smaller than D&D 8c ) all with 250 Watt Amps - by comparison ‘ somewhat overbuilt ‘. 

Then add BXT Modules bringing the total of woofer drivers to Twelve

(should be plenty ). 

While both products ( Kii 3 / 8c ) do the Cardioid thing the Kiis seem to have the extra effort overall. 

Erin’saudiocorner’s comment ‘ mild directivity mismatch at the crossover ‘ is all that I noticed in the Review comments for 8c. 

On the issue of price the difference may be a bit less than expected. 

Kii3s listed on Amazon at $15k for the set and leaving out the stands and controller the price difference is $2k with rounding up on the 8c. 

While the Kii Controller is nice to have and almost an integral part it could be added later. 

If you decide on the Kii3s I would suggest looking into a custom built stand for each Module because of the Tweeter / Acoustic height when the BTX Module is used. 

If we could please just keep it to the direct question. I’m not interested in other products on this thread (e.g., neither I’d buy this or that).
 

It appears that we have several in here that aren’t adept at reading comprehension.

If it were me, I would go with the D&D, but it is probably hard to go wrong with either.  

I went down the path of digital actives a long time ago, and don't see myself going back to a traditional system anytime soon.

rego - over-the-top research and comments, thanks so much! With regards to Erin's Corners comment, he does say in the first few moments of the D&D video just "Buy It" no need to watch the video. As where in the Kii 3 video he does not say this.

Great comments by others too, thank you.

ozzy62 +1 lol!

jdbsi - good stuff, but it's tough to make the leap!

@navyachts, the Kii3 was ' evaluated ' after the D&D 8c @erin'saudiocorner.

I think the takeaway would be that the System Type ( cardioid ) works and that sound is still a subjective choice ... a direct comparison could help.

And I like my price comparison better.

Active Systems ( for home playback ) have not settled in as well as all the Active Monitor concept. Meridian Digital Systems did so at higher price.

rego - Point well taken (last post) 

Previous post "If you decide on the Kii3s I would suggest looking into a custom built stand for each Module" 

So, do you mean the Kii3 stands that are dedicated for them:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/324868444766?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-213727-13078-0&mkcid=2&itemid=324868444766&targetid=4581183927179146&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=418233787&mkgroupid=1241348861725295&rlsatarget=pla-4581183927179146&abcId=9300542&merchantid=51291&msclkid=54574f834bbc1a94de642e361df1a7f1

How large is the room?  Do you listen to music at higher volume levels?  How far is your mail listening position from where these speakers will be placed (remember, they'll be near a wall so account accordingly)?  

Either system is great.  Both have the ability to EQ.  So, I wouldn't worry about tonal characteristics too much.  The one feature I like about the Kii is that it has BT built-in.  That's a nice feature to have (despite audiophiles hating it, I rather enjoy the convenience at times).  ROON will soon be arriving the DD8c, finally.  

Utlimately, IMHO it boils down to this:

Kii THREE is more compact and has a neat little remote with a lot of I/Os and BT as I mentioned.

DD8c can play louder with more bass output (no built-in limiter whereas the Kii has such) and soon shall have ROON.  

How much does aesthetic factor in to your decision?  If the room is small and you don't necessarily listen loud then that really may be the final determining factor.  It's a tough call, for sure.  Hard to go wrong either way as long as you understand the limits.

Putzys comment ( when using BTX Module ) about the system being ' a Line Array ' is what prompted the thought about height.

The images on the website make the stacked modules look higher to me.

But videos with a person nearby for comparison looks like a more typical height.

The Modules are compact.

Definitely something to address with the Manufacturer / Distributor.

The point is that vertical position in a room can be significant.

hardisj - All great points. Room is L-shaped. Main part is 24’ long by 16’ wide with a 12’ by 12’ kitchen off to the right side of the listening area. One speaker in a corner the other will have 14’ of space beside it.

Listening position will be about 9’ away, still in the open space with the kitchen to the right. Then open space behind the listening position. Vaulted ceilings starting at 8’ behind the speakers going to 11’ in the middle (just above the listening position. I have a maximum width of 12’ to place the speakers on the backwall. Lots of hard surfaces and irregular shapes, a hard room to tame acoustically. This is why I’m looking to active speakers. My original speaker option was KEF R11s as they only need to be 9" off the back wall, but the room is to lively, I’m thinking, for a conventional speaker.

I like to listen loud at times, but 96 db is pretty loud, I would say?

A little off the technical stuff, I think the Kiis look better, it would be nice if the D&Ds had some kind of a grill.

Both offer their speakers in white but neither offer their stands in white (my color preference).

Kind of a weird controller for the Kiis. In a way, I’m trying to minimalize, but then you have this big volume knob with a bunch of cables hanging out of it, just not sure where I would keep it?

rego - great point, I will ask!